Gonçalo Amaral should never have been taken off the case!

[stephen25000]

That's fine.  It helps though if one is not accused of having an imagination worthy of a Disney movie.  Nothing I haver written is remotely fantastical, but all 100% grounded in reality.   What I still do not comprehend is why we should apparently be complacent about the Portuguese Police's obvious failings.  It is blatantly obvious that they did not put very much effort into finding Madeleine or her body in the weeks after her disappearance.  Excuses like "how were the police supposed to know how landfill waste processing worked" are lame to say the very least.

' It is blatantly obvious that they did not put very much effort into finding Madeleine or her body in the weeks after her disappearance.'

Justify that statement, as all that it is, is a personal opinion.

[Alfred R Jones]

' It is blatantly obvious that they did not put very much effort into finding Madeleine or her body in the weeks after her disappearance.'

Justify that statement, as all that it is, is a personal opinion.

It is a personal opinion, based on the facts and also when compared to other searches for missing children, that have gone on for weeks and weeks. 

[ferryman]

That's fine.  It helps though if one is not accused of having an imagination worthy of Disney or that my ideas are "crazy".  Nothing I haver written is remotely fantastical, but all 100% grounded in reality.   What I still do not comprehend is why we should apparently be complacent about the Portuguese Police's obvious failings.  It is blatantly obvious that they did not put very much effort into finding Madeleine or her body in the weeks after her disappearance.  Excuses like "how were the police supposed to know how landfill waste processing worked" are lame to say the very least.

I wouldn't say that was altogether fair.  I agree, efforts to find a body might have been more rigorous, but efforts to find a living missing little girl were extensive and (in my view) commendable.

[stephen25000]

It is a personal opinion, based on the facts and also when compared to other searches for missing children, that have gone on for weeks and weeks.

What facts Alfred.

Not only was Madeleine searched for by the Police, many locals and holidaymakers joined in the search as well, as you well know, and no trace of her was found, AS REMAINS THE CASE.

[ShiningInLuz]

Let's begin at the beginning.
I did not say that - please re-read.  I asked why DON'T they have VRDs?  Is there no call for them in Portugal?  I fully accept that no such beast resided in Portugal in 2007 but if the authorities were able to call upon the services of Eddie the Wonder Dog in August, then why not in May?  Even if it was not such the wonderful, infallible specimen as Eddie, a second-rate VRD would have been better than nowt surely?Again you appear to have completely misunderstood my post.  There is a difference (or so I've been led to believe) between a dead pig and pork and pig based food products.  The super dog will alert to the former but not the latter.  That being the case, if the landfill was filled with pig carcasses then, yes very confusing for the dog, however if it is filled with discarded ham sandwiches, then it's no problem whatsoever for the super sniffer.  Right?  Or wrong?
 This is absurd logic.  Why do I have to cite evidence of what the police did or did not know about rubbish processing in the Algarve in 2007? It's completely beside the point.  In any case I thought police investigators were supposed to find stuff out about stuff, and if they didn't know something that may be relevant that they damn well did their best to find out about it.  So, they knew nothing about rubbish processing and for that reason we must excuse them for not pursuing this line of enquiry?  are you SERIOUS??!  You think the police were perfectly justified in not searching rubbish tips because they didn't know about rubbish processing - REALLY??!
.Harking back to my answer above, I can see no reason whatsoever why the police shouldn't have considered the fact that Madeleine's body may have ended up at the local landfill.  As I have said before, it's not unheard of - there are dozens of examples - a baby found in a bag being just one of many examples.  I simply don't understand your passionate defence of the PJ on this matter- is this a personal thing for you?
  Just because you live there doesn't mean that your opinions and thought processes on this matter are better informed and superior to mine.  Just saying like...

If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not.  Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
 
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not.  Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.

The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems.  I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare.  If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.

If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence.  I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches.  If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.

Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of?  Yes, I do.  How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?

I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May.  I was far from convinced on that check.  I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter.  So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.

Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me.  Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.

At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation.  The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities.  There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere.  Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching?  Yes, they were.

The baby found in the rubbish supports this.  A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage.  Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.

My defence of the PJ on this is simple.  They do not deserve criticism on this point.  The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas.  It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.

You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.

My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.

My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.

[Brietta]

Eddie doesn't alert to household pork waste in bins. And what's so peculiar about not letting 188 bins leave without first being properly emptied and checked. If she was murdered and hidden in a bin then at least you can rule that out from the start and not talk about the possibility years later.

I think I am going to take myself off to lie in a darkened room for a bit ... I am actually in accordance with Pathfinder on this.  Horrible, messy job that it might have been, why would it have been so difficult to stop the rubbish uplift and empty the bins?  188 isn't really all that many when measured against the numbers of professional and volunteer searchers who turned out.
Teams could have been organised under the control of a professional police officer.  I think it would have been a useful deployment of personnel ... and as PF states it eliminates an obvious possibility.

[ferryman]

In fairness, one of the few things Amaral got right is that the investigation, before the English arrived, was for a little girl assumed alive.

Against that, we know what abductors, all too often, do to their hapless child-victims ....

[Brietta]

If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not.  Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
 
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not.  Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.

The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems.  I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare.  If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.

If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence.  I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches.  If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.

Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of?  Yes, I do.  How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?

I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May.  I was far from convinced on that check.  I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter.  So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.

Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me.  Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.

At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation.  The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities.  There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere.  Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching?  Yes, they were.

The baby found in the rubbish supports this.  A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage.  Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.

My defence of the PJ on this is simple.  They do not deserve criticism on this point.  The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas.  It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.

You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.

My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.

My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.

I have seen it in print that British dogs were on offer but it is difficult to trace now.  For example the search engine throws up ...

The Eddie and Keela Searches/Videos - McCann Files
www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html
The McCanns' First Interviews 25 May 2007 · McCanns' ...... British police dog handlers had offered expertise to Portuguese authorities in May. They were only  ...

When the link is followed I can find no mention of the offer made in May.


**Snip
Police in the Algarve appear no nearer to finding Maddie 20 days after she was snatched from her bed in the family’s holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. But the sniffer dogs are still being snubbed.

A senior UK police source said: “It is an absolute scandal — time is fast running out for this little girl.

“These dogs have immense capability. Their tracking skills are among the finest in the world.

“The dogs were put on standby to go to the Algarve within days of Madeleine’s disappearance.

“You would expect the Portuguese to make use of the best resources available to them, but they repeatedly ignore the offers of assistance.”

The dogs include a spaniel whose sense of smell is so keen she can sniff traces of blood on a weapon even after it has been scrubbed clean.

But the source warned: “They work most effectively within a 28-day time frame. After that the scent becomes much weaker.”

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/230278/Maddie-hunt-Send-in-dogs.html

[stephen25000]

In fairness, one of the few things Amaral got right is that the investigation, before the English arrived, was for a little girl assumed alive.

Against that, we know what abductors, all too often, do to their hapless child-victims ....

Tell me ferryman, if there was no abductor, as many believe, where does that leave the mccanns ?

[Alfred R Jones]

If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not.  Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
 
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not.  Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.

The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems.  I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare.  If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.

If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence.  I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches.  If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.

Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of?  Yes, I do.  How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?

I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May.  I was far from convinced on that check.  I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter.  So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.

Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me.  Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.

At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation.  The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities.  There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere.  Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching?  Yes, they were.

The baby found in the rubbish supports this.  A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage.  Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.

My defence of the PJ on this is simple.  They do not deserve criticism on this point.  The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas.  It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.

You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.

My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.

My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.

Sundays are too short to reply to this perplexing post in full.  I do however wish you'd stop asking for cites for things I haven't said.  "If Portuguese police were unaware that cadaver dogs as a tool for finding human remains existed in 2007 then perhaps you could provide me with a cite for that" - do you see how absurd that request is?  It is the police's job to know about these things and even if they did have the resources instantly at their disposal to at least make attempts to secure them as soon as possible.   I will come back to the rest of your facetious post later.

[ferryman]

Tell me ferryman, if there was no abductor, as many believe, where does that leave the mccanns ?

The more pertinent question is where it leaves abductor-deniers ....

[Alfred R Jones]

What facts Alfred.

Not only was Madeleine searched for by the Police, many locals and holidaymakers joined in the search as well, as you well know, and no trace of her was found, AS REMAINS THE CASE.

And your point is?  How many days did the police spend searching for Madeleine, alive or dead, in the aftermath of her disappearance?  Did they really follow every lead diligently?  Did they really leave every stone unturned?  In my opinion they did not.  So you disagree, fine.

[Alfred R Jones]

If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities were aware of Eddie and his claimed capability in May, please cite it, as all the evidence suggests they did not.  Why wait until August to deploy Eddie if the PJ could have deployed him in May?
 
If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Portuguese authorities could have arranged for Eddie to be deployed within the first 2 days, please cite, as all the evidence suggests they could not.  Surely Eddie would have been in apartment 5A much faster than August if the PJ knew about him so early on.

The Portuguese dog handlers are on record that rubbish caused their dogs problems.  I would therefore assume than an entire rubbish tip would be a nightmare.  If you think otherwise, there must be an example of such dogs searching landfill sites.

If your landfill site is filled with ham sandwiches, please provide the evidence.  I have never before heard of a landfill site composed entirely of ham sandwiches.  If you are aware of any landfill site that does not contain uncooked, dead pig, of the kind purchased, not consumed and then ditched by households, please provide evidence. You raised the idea of a landfill site stuffed with pig carcases, but I never said anything that comes remotely close.

Do I contend that the police should not have searched something they knew nothing of?  Yes, I do.  How can one possibly search something you are unaware of?

I looked at the bin check carried out in Luz, which from memory, was on 7 May.  I was far from convinced on that check.  I then spent a considerable time trying to find out what happened to the rubbish thereafter.  So let me now turn to the process whereby instead of relying on the check, the authorities came to the same conclusion, and decided to check on post-pickup processing.

Finding out should have been easier and faster for them than it was for me.  Without going into a detailed explanation of such a process, I would reckon perhaps a further 2 days would be required to find out about the landfill site, and the fact there is only one on the whole of the Western Algarve.

At that time the priorities were investigating the disappearance and conducting a search operation.  The resources required to plough through the landfill by something like 10 May would have been truly massive, and had to come from the case priorities.  There is no infinite pool of resources to be magicked out of nowhere.  Were they right to put the resources into investigating and searching?  Yes, they were.

The baby found in the rubbish supports this.  A tiny child, much smaller than Madeleine, was found in the rubbish processing stage.  Diverting massive amounts of resources to a labour intensive landfill search when the rubbish had already been picked over is a fanciful notion.

My defence of the PJ on this is simple.  They do not deserve criticism on this point.  The forum has been stuffed with fanciful ideas lately, and I like slaying fanciful ideas.  It gets rid of the dross and so gets us a step closer to finding out what actually happened to Madeleine.

You will note that earlier in my reply, I sated that I was not convinced by the front end check, so it is clear I am not a defender of the PJ per se.

My opinion is not superior or inferior to yours, irrespective of where we live.

My thought processes are better informed than yours, in certain aspects this case that relate to where the incident occurred, because of where I live.

You asked for an example of dogs searching landfill sites for bodies.  Here is one from 2012.  I hope it will be acceptable to you:

http://www.dailybreeze.com/article/ZZ/20120508/NEWS/120509374

[ShiningInLuz]

I think I am going to take myself off to lie in a darkened room for a bit ... I am actually in accordance with Pathfinder on this.  Horrible, messy job that it might have been, why would it have been so difficult to stop the rubbish uplift and empty the bins?  188 isn't really all that many when measured against the numbers of professional and volunteer searchers who turned out.
Teams could have been organised under the control of a professional police officer.  I think it would have been a useful deployment of personnel ... and as PF states it eliminates an obvious possibility.

Some bins can only be emptied and searched properly by specialist lorries from the waste processing organisation, operated by people trained to use the equipment.  So to have done this faster required agreeing the loaning of such resources faster.

It would have been possible, with considerable effort, to tip out the green wheelie bins, thereby requiring that at the end, all the rubbish would have to have been restored to the bins.  Lovely.

It is possible to open the underground cylinder type bins.  Searching that would require getting in and sifting through whatever was in there.  IMO, it is impossible to search a nearly full container in that manner, unless you chuck most of the waste out, requiring of course that you chuck it all back in again at the end.

There is a third type, like brown cubes.  These can only be opened by specialist equipment that lifts them up over the back of a lorry, then the bottom is unhinged to let the waste fall into the lorry.  Then a proper search means getting into the back of the lorry and have a good rummage through.

I don't know for certain what the volunteers were looking for during the period they searched.  If anyone knows whether they were looking for a live but missing child or a potentially dead child, or both, kindly bring this information to the table.

What I doubt is that the volunteers were willing to conduct the sort of messy checks I have described.  Personally, I would stop short of this, but that is me.

And while everyone seems to be obsessed with the 188 bins of Luz, I would have to ask why?

By the time the PJ  first turned up at 5A, a person on foot walking at normal pace could be 10 miles away.  What's wrong with the bins of Espiche, Almádena, Burgau, Lagos and Odiaxere?

Actually, I've just checked Google Earth on a whim, and it seems such a guy on foot could be at or near one of the barragems, or within an hour of the landfill site, both much better places for body disposal.

That's on foot, no car for some reason, by the time the PJ arrived at 5A.

I must confess I never thought about her going into the landfill by a method other than the bins.  Now I'll have to find out if the perimeter of the landfill site is secure.

[Mr Gray]

Tell me ferryman, if there was no abductor, as many believe, where does that leave the mccanns ?

as long as there is no proof of their not being an abductor then your question is irrelevant