Wandering Off Topic

[barrier]

have not realised by now that amarals thesis was based on his poor understanding of the evidence... Have you read his book... Watched his documentary

SY trump anything he wrote with their well publicised landscaping,was ground force out there I wonder.

[Mr Gray]

SY trump anything he wrote with their well publicised landscaping,was ground force out there I wonder.

Your post doesn't really make any sense... Perhaps a sprinkling of fairy dust would help

[barrier]

Do you and sil really need a quote for the fact that amaral was removed from the investigation... I'm shocked

So the book is factual,no wonder Amaral won.

[Robittybob1]

Wow, that's some big piece of misinformation Pathfinder posted then.

One would have to discover why the person called Manuela says totally opposing things one year apart.  I don't blame Pathfinder at this stage.

[Mr Gray]

So the book is factual,no wonder Amaral won.

The book is not factual... Anyone who doesn't realise that needs to pay more attention.....

[Robittybob1]

Well researched Robitty.  Do you think that might pass as a 'discrepancy'?

I think it must rank as something higher than discrepancy.

[Robittybob1]

That's extremely interesting Rob.  In her statement she claims to have been at home with her 13-year-old son when the disappearance was discovered as her shift finished at 6.45pm.  Yet in the "Tapas cook breaks silence and talks about the McCanns" interview it is implied that she was there that night and saw what went on.

Might not be the same Manuela.  But both described as cooks and there were no other "Manuela"s in the Tapas staff list.  There is a translated version of that video on the HiDeHo channel.

[Angelo222]

Posts of a personal nature which are merely intended to goad and add little to the debates will be removed on sight so don't go complaining to admin when this happens.

[Carana]

From one of the texts in the libel / damages case:

The criminal investigation officers, retired for various reasons of disciplinary penalty application, retain special rights, being holders of an identification card for recognition of their quality and the rights they enjoy [paragraphs 1 and and 2 of article 149 of the Organic Law of the Judicial Police and Ordinance No. 96/2002 of 31 January].

The statute of the retirement [approved by Decree-Law 498/72 of 9 December] establishes, from its original wording in the respective artº 74, paragraph 1, that the retired, apart from his right to a retirement pension, remains bound to the civil service, keeping the titles and the category of the position he held and the rights and duties that do not depend on being in activity.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm



From the link I gave earlier on displinary measures on the other thread, the scale (Chapter 12) is:

a) repreensão escrita - written reprimand
b) multa - fine
c) suspension
d) “inactividade” (not quite sure what the difference is, but involves being barred from promotion for 2 years)
e) aposentação compulsiva - compulsory resignation *
f) dismissal

http://www.dgpj.mj.pt/sections/leis-da-justica/pdf-ult/sections/leis-da-justica/pdf-ult/decreto-lei-n-196-94-de/downloadFile/file/DL196.94.pdf?nocache=1192191524.72

The Disciplinary Unit was calling for the suspension of Cristovão, Amaral and a few others over the Cipriano saga. (I've no idea why this only got reported in 2011, but anyway.)

http://www.cmjornal.pt/portugal/detalhe/pj-pede-suspensao-para-investigadores

Chapter 16 has an interesting and long list of types of misconduct that can result in the more serious disciplinary measures...

Chapter 17 deals with attenuating circumstances (e.g., previous good behaviour), and Chapter 18 deals with aggravating ones (prior misconduct, a violation committed while on duty, or in public, an accumulation of violations...).


According to "Aviso (extrato) n.o 11666/2013" (dead link), on appeal, Amaral got a reduction in a fine and in a suspension, but it doesn't state which case this was about. (I have the text, if anyone is particularly interested, but the accents need correcting as they turned into gibberish.)

Note: aposentação can apparently mean retirement or resignation. However, in police lingo, "aposentação compulsiva" is translated by euro-lex as compulsory resignation. "Aposentação no interesse da Europol ..." =  "retirement in the interests of Europol", but this doesn't exist in the PT disciplinary code.
* https://www.linguee.com/portuguese-english/translation/aposenta%C3%A7%C3%A3o+compulsiva.html

[Brietta]

From one of the texts in the libel / damages case:

The criminal investigation officers, retired for various reasons of disciplinary penalty application, retain special rights, being holders of an identification card for recognition of their quality and the rights they enjoy [paragraphs 1 and and 2 of article 149 of the Organic Law of the Judicial Police and Ordinance No. 96/2002 of 31 January].

The statute of the retirement [approved by Decree-Law 498/72 of 9 December] establishes, from its original wording in the respective artº 74, paragraph 1, that the retired, apart from his right to a retirement pension, remains bound to the civil service, keeping the titles and the category of the position he held and the rights and duties that do not depend on being in activity.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm



From the link I gave earlier on displinary measures on the other thread, the scale (Chapter 12) is:

a) repreensão escrita - written reprimand
b) multa - fine
c) suspension
d) “inactividade” (not quite sure what the difference is, but involves being barred from promotion for 3 years)
e) aposentação compulsiva - compulsory resignation *
f) dismissal

http://www.dgpj.mj.pt/sections/leis-da-justica/pdf-ult/sections/leis-da-justica/pdf-ult/decreto-lei-n-196-94-de/downloadFile/file/DL196.94.pdf?nocache=1192191524.72

The Disciplinary Unit was calling for the suspension of Cristovão, Amaral and a few others over the Cipriano saga. (I've no idea why this only got reported in 2011, but anyway.)

http://www.cmjornal.pt/portugal/detalhe/pj-pede-suspensao-para-investigadores

Chapter 16 has an interesting and long list of types of misconduct that can result in the more serious disciplinary measures...

Chapter 17 deals with attenuating circumstances (e.g., previous good behaviour), and Chapter 18 deals with aggravating ones (prior misconduct, a violation committed while on duty, or in public, an accumulation of violations...).


According to "Aviso (extrato) n.o 11666/2013" (dead link), on appeal, Amaral got a reduction in a fine and in a suspension, but it doesn't state which case this was about. (I have the text, if anyone is particularly interested, but the accents need correcting as they turned into gibberish.)

Note: aposentação can apparently mean retirement or resignation. However, in police lingo, "aposentação compulsiva" is translated by euro-lex as compulsory resignation. "Aposentação no interesse da Europol ..." =  "retirement in the interests of Europol", but this doesn't exist in the PT disciplinary code.
* https://www.linguee.com/portuguese-english/translation/aposenta%C3%A7%C3%A3o+compulsiva.html

As usual an interesting and informative post, Carana.

PJ seeks suspension for investigators
The Judiciary Police Disciplinary Unit asks for the suspension of Paulo Pereira Cristóvão, Gonçalo Amaral and three PJ inspectors for alleged involvement in the case of assaults on Leonor Cipriano, convicted of the death and concealment of her daughter's body, Joana, in 2004.
Ler mais em: http://www.cmjornal.pt/portugal/detalhe/pj-pede-suspensao-para-investigadores


Contrary to popular belief it appears that Amaral was not the credit to the Judiciary Police that many claim him to have been.
The PJ themselves wanted him and some of his peer group suspended and I believe Paulo Pereira Cristóvão did eventually leave the service under a cloud which didn't prevent him from carving out bigger and better future careers.

I did find the description of Leonor Cipriano's conviction for "the death and concealment of her daughter's body" food for thought.

[Angelo222]

In other words, was he pushed or did he jump?

In my opinion he didn't need to resign but he might have been offered early retirement and his pension if he did.  The Cipriano fiasco must have been a determining factor in that decision imo since if convicted of perjury his position as a senior officer would have been untenable.

[Brietta]

In other words, was he pushed or did he jump?

In my opinion he didn't need to resign but he might have been offered early retirement and his pension if he did.  The Cipriano fiasco must have been a determining factor in that decision imo since if convicted of perjury his position as a senior officer would have been untenable.

I'm in complete agreement with that, Angelo.

Carana's post raises further questions for me.  She posted

Snip
From one of the texts in the libel / damages case:

The criminal investigation officers, retired for various reasons of disciplinary penalty application, retain special rights, being holders of an identification card for recognition of their quality and the rights they enjoy [paragraphs 1 and and 2 of article 149 of the Organic Law of the Judicial Police and Ordinance No. 96/2002 of 31 January].

The statute of the retirement [approved by Decree-Law 498/72 of 9 December] establishes, from its original wording in the respective artº 74, paragraph 1, that the retired, apart from his right to a retirement pension, remains bound to the civil service, keeping the titles and the category of the position he held and the rights and duties that do not depend on being in activity.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Therefore, irrespective of the nature of the offence an officer forced to retire under a cloud still retains what? … the equivalent of a warrant card?


Apparently Goncalo Amaral retired from public service because he was bound by legal restrictions imposed upon him by his status which prevented him clearing his name. 
But in his retiral he “remains bound to the civil service, keeping the titles and the category of the position he held and the rights and duties that do not depend on being in activity.”

If he couldn’t do something while in employment … how was he able to do it when retired if remaining bound by the same restrictions in force when he was still working?

Just doesn't make sense to me in the light of Amaral's chosen career path.

[jassi]

I'm in complete agreement with that, Angelo.

Carana's post raises further questions for me.  She posted

Snip
From one of the texts in the libel / damages case:

The criminal investigation officers, retired for various reasons of disciplinary penalty application, retain special rights, being holders of an identification card for recognition of their quality and the rights they enjoy [paragraphs 1 and and 2 of article 149 of the Organic Law of the Judicial Police and Ordinance No. 96/2002 of 31 January].

The statute of the retirement [approved by Decree-Law 498/72 of 9 December] establishes, from its original wording in the respective artº 74, paragraph 1, that the retired, apart from his right to a retirement pension, remains bound to the civil service, keeping the titles and the category of the position he held and the rights and duties that do not depend on being in activity.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Therefore, irrespective of the nature of the offence an officer forced to retire under a cloud still retains what? … the equivalent of a warrant card?


Apparently Goncalo Amaral retired from public service because he was bound by legal restrictions imposed upon him by his status which prevented him clearing his name. 
But in his retiral he “remains bound to the civil service, keeping the titles and the category of the position he held and the rights and duties that do not depend on being in activity.”

If he couldn’t do something while in employment … how was he able to do it when retired if remaining bound by the same restrictions in force when he was still working?

Just doesn't make sense to me in the light of Amaral's chosen career path.

Something you should ask the Portuguese authorities - if you are sufficiently concerned.

[pathfinder73]

In other words, was he pushed or did he jump?

In my opinion he didn't need to resign but he might have been offered early retirement and his pension if he did.  The Cipriano fiasco must have been a determining factor in that decision imo since if convicted of perjury his position as a senior officer would have been untenable.

This is the Foreword from the French version.

“Certainly, this book responds to the need I felt to defend myself, having been discredited by the institution for which I worked for more than twenty-six years, without being given any chance to explain myself, publicly or within the institution itself. I made the request several times, but it was never heard. I, therefore, scrupulously respected the rules of the police judiciaire and I refrained from making any comment. But this goes without saying: I experienced that silence to which I was constrained as an attack on my dignity. Later, I was removed from the investigation. It was then that I understood that it was time to speak. To do that, I requested early retirement in order to be able to express myself freely.

However, the purpose of this work is more important: to contribute to finding the truth so that justice can finally be done in the investigation known as the “Maddie case.” Truth and justice are two values strongly anchored within me, which reflect my profound beliefs: they always guided the work I did for the institution to which I am proud to have belonged. Even in retirement, they continue to inspire me and to be present in my life.

In no way does this text seek to challenge the work of my colleagues in the police judiciaire or to compromise the ongoing investigation. I am convinced that the disclosure of all the facts may, in the present case, result in harming the investigation. However, the reader will have access to unpublished information, to new interpretations of events – always with respect for the law – and, of course, to relevant enquiries.

The only objective of a criminal investigation is the search for truth. There is no place for the “politically correct.”

[Brietta]

Something you should ask the Portuguese authorities - if you are sufficiently concerned.

I'm discussing it with you Jassie.  I'm a member of a discussion forum as are you.  That is what we do because quite simply that is all we are equipped to do as I think most of us have realised that we aren't going to change the world.
The Portuguese authorities as far as I know are not members here.

You and I are entitled to express our opinions though.  I sometimes wish you would take advantage of that by attempting to expand the discussion somewhat as opposed to issuing one liners designed to put down other members and or stifle debate.