Author Topic: Wandering Off Topic  (Read 2823985 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4275 on: August 15, 2018, 06:44:54 PM »
False positives in testing?

Has one ever been shown to happen... A false positive could be the result of operator error

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4276 on: August 15, 2018, 07:12:58 PM »
Not forgetting from 5a also.
The dog examination occurred in August.  By that time there was nothing of the McCann's in 5A - so what are you talking about?
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Offline barrier

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4277 on: August 15, 2018, 08:52:49 PM »
The dog examination occurred in August.  By that time there was nothing of the McCann's in 5A - so what are you talking about?

5a was their first residence was it not,so the clothes had to have been there first.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4278 on: August 15, 2018, 08:55:57 PM »
5a was their first residence was it not,so the clothes had to have been there first.
And some of them would have been brought to Portugal from England or even purchased while they were in PDL.  That is not the point I was making.  All the clothes were collected up and boxed from the villa regardless where they were before that.
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Offline Brietta

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4279 on: August 17, 2018, 03:51:39 AM »
With reference to an off topic mention on another thread to a case which occurred several years ago in which a five year old child was found to have wandered and died as a result.


30th March 1989
Lessons learned from search that failed to save boy

THE policeman who led the search for five-year-old Stephen McKerron after the youngster disappeared from the Wonderwest World Holiday Centre at Ayr yesterday described the lessons he had learned from the hunt.

At the second day of a fatal accident inquiry into the death of Stephen, Chief Superintendent David Gall, Strathclyde police divisional commander at Ayr, said he would now approach a search differently.

However he rejected criticisms of the hunt contained in an anonymous letter delivered yesterday to Sheriff Neil Gow QC, who is conducting the inquiry.

Chief Superintendent Gall gave details of the operation which covered a two-mile radius around the holiday centre and extended along roads to cover ground near lay-bys.

There was also a door-to-door check in the Doonfoot area of Ayr near the holiday centre.

The boy went missing last September 17.

His body was found 15 days later.

Mr Gall said that by 10.15am on September 18 police and a Royal Navy helicopter had made a preliminary search covering a two-mile radius around the centre.

This area was later painstakingly cross-checked. Coastguards and holiday centre staff had by then searched beaches.

Asked what factors influenced his decision to restrict the main search to two miles round Wonderwest World, Chief Superintendent Gall said he weighed up information on Stephen.

Experts had told him there was a 92% probability that the child would be found within 2.2 miles.

The boy's body was found in a ditch by Lady Margaret MacLehose 4.6 miles as the crow flies from the holiday complex.

Chief Superintendent Gall told the sheriff: ''If I had a similar situation tomorrow I would clearly ensure that the search was wider.''

But without the knowledge gained from the search for Stepehen he said he would have carried out an identical search again.

The sheriff put to the chief superintendent the contents of the anonymous letter which dismissed the search as ''an expensive failure in all respects''.

The writer said that every parent in the area would want to know why no civilians, apart from hillwalkers, and no Territorial Army or Navy personnel were allowed to help.

Chief Superintendent Gall told the sheriff that to his knowledge at least 38 civilians were involved.

Detective Chief Superintendent John Fleming, 47, of Strathclyde CID, told the inquiry that during the search he had enlisted the co-operation of West Yorkshire police who provided a Holmes computer terminal at Ayr.
This enabled statements obtained in the search for Stephen to be cross-checked against records of the search for missing girls Susan Maxwell, Caroline Hogg and Sarah Jane Harper.

A total of 493 statements were taken. Exactly a week after Stephen disappeared, 560 questionnaires were completed at road checks on the Ayr-Dunure road.

Detective Chief Inspector Robert Redmond, of Ayr CID, told the sheriff no-one had come forward to confirm any of the three reported sightings of a man seen with a boy who could have been Stephen on the night the child disappeared.

He said when Stephen was found the shoes he was wearing were tied with double bow knots and there was a muddy sock in the boy's trouser pockets.

Despite earlier evidence that Stephen could not tie his own laces, Chief Inspector Redmond said he read nothing sinister into that.
The evidence suggested to him that the boy had got into mud, taken his socks off, then slipped his tied shoes back on.

He said that there had been no apparent effort to conceal the body in the ditch where it was found. There were about 1000 places in the immediate area where a body could have been concealed and probably never found.

Pathologist Dr Nancy Cunningham, who carried out a post mortem examination, told the sheriff Stephen's death was due to exposure.

Asked by Sheriff Gow if she was happy to rule out the possibility of strangulation, she said she could not rule that out because of the lack of tissue on the partly decomposed body.

''All we can say is that there were not ligature marks on the back of the neck,'' she said.

The inquiry closed and Sheriff Gow will give his findings on Friday.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/11893198.Lessons_learned_from_search_that_failed_to_save_boy/
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4280 on: August 17, 2018, 03:51:51 AM »
Following on from the above post about Stephen's case ... the main difference in the wandered off theory for Madeleine is that Stephen's body was found despite the rough terrain around ... and I think the evidence given of the double knots on his laces and the sock in his pocket leave something hanging in the air.

This post I think shows that irrespective of input from a junior, senior officers will continue with the investigation as they see fit no doubt for the best of reasons and following 'expert' advice, even if it might have been the wrong expert asked for it.

If the search perimeter had been extended the chances are Stephen could have been found sooner; with luck alive but as it was more information could have been gleaned from his remains.


The case I can't forget: Former detective Gerry Gallacher regrets how investigation into tragic Stephen McKerron disappearance was handled
GERRY Gallacher, 59, was part of a team tasked with finding lost five-year-old Stephen McKerron, who went missing from an Ayrshire holiday camp in 1988.

ByDailyrecord.Co.Uk
12:15, 20 MAY 2012


The police search was heavily criticised when Stephen was found dead 16 days later.

To this day, Gerry is still haunted by the missed chances that could have saved his life.

VERY EARLY in an officer's career the realisation dawns that no matter how hard you try, you cannot simply solve every crime of bring every incident you face to a successful conclusion.

Even more so if the situation or crime has involved a child or some other vulnerable individual.

Stephen McKerron was just five when he went missing from ­Wonder Westworld Holiday ­Centre on September 17, 1988.

His disappearance within hours of arriving at the camp sparked one of the largest searches ever seen in Scotland.

The tragedy was intensified by the fact that there were several missed opportunities, which may have led to a happier outcome.

Mistakes were made by the public and police alike and those errors probably cause many involved to occasionally pause and reflect. I know I do.

Stephen had gone to Wonder Westworld with an aunt and uncle for a week’s holiday.

Like many kids, he’d been taken out of school a few days before the beginning of the holidays, but within half an hour of arriving at the camp he’d gone missing.

Although there were initial ­concerns that Stephen may have been abducted, they were offset by a ­witness who saw a boy fitting his ­description and ­wearing the same clothes climbing a six foot perimeter fence.

There were further sightings of a boy walking alone on a road towards nearby Ayr.

Search parameters were ­established by senior ­management and assistance was eventually sought from the RAF, which ­provided a helicopter equipped with infrared sensors.

I was one of scores of detectives drafted in to assist by ­interviewing staff and guests. I’m sure most of the inquiry team were satisfied that Stephen was missing and not the victim of foul play, but that didn’t make things any easier.

The surrounding area was bleak, cold and marshy and he was only a child, woefully ­underdressed for the conditions and night-time temperatures.

In the belief that he was lost I found myself sometimes delaying inquiries I’d been given just so I could take a drive around the ­surrounding terrain in the forlorn hope that I’d catch sight of him or maybe hear him call out. Not long into the ­investigation I needed to speak to a procurator fiscal at Glasgow Sheriff Court about an unrelated matter.

As I stood waiting I began a conversation with a sergeant.


That chance meeting and the resulting conversation would bring me into conflict with the senior officers in charge of Stephen’s ­disappearance.

It almost led to me being thrown off the inquiry, and it remains a source of regret that I could have been more forceful in my arguments.

The sergeant had previously worked on a similar type of enquiry involving a missing boy who was roughly the same age.

In that case, however, the boy – also on foot and alone – had managed to walk a far greater distance than the area designated for search in Stephen’s case.

At the briefing that evening I relayed this new information to senior management and expressed my belief that the allocated search parameters were too narrow.

I was told that “experts” had been consulted when establishing the search area. The expert was, in fact, a paediatrician.

When I suggested that ­consulting a topographer would be more beneficial than a ­paediatrician and reiterated the distance covered by the boy in the other case, I was met with icy glares and even icier responses. “That’s the advice we’ve been given and that’s what we’ll stick to,” I was told in no uncertain terms.

By this time I could feel ­colleagues almost creating a physical space around me as a means of distancing themselves from my suggestions.

Throughout my police service I’d never shied from conflict and besides, this was too important to remain silent about.

I forcefully made my point again that a different type of expert should be consulted and have the search parameters redrawn, but I wasn’t going to alter their opinions.

As I made a final futile effort to change their minds I was nudged by a colleague who whispered to me: “Shut it, you’re about to get binned.” In other words, thrown off the inquiry.

On October 3, 1988, some 16 days after he’d gone missing, Stephen was found dead by a ­passing ­hillwalker.

He was curled up in a ditch, possibly trying to shelter from the cold. He was six miles from the camp and one mile out of the established search parameters.

If a chain is only as strong as the weakest link then the chain relating to Stephen’s ­disappearance was weak from the outset and remained that way for the length of the enquiry.

There were so many “what ifs” and had some of them been acted upon, Stephen’s life might have been saved.

Why didn’t Stephen’s aunt and uncle keep a closer watch over him at the camp?

Why didn’t the person who’d seen him climbing a fence to the outside of the camp intervene?

Why didn’t any of the four motorists who saw a small, ­unaccompanied young boy ­walking a busy road not check to see if he was okay or tell police?

Why did the police limit the search area to five miles and take three days to make use of a ­specially equipped helicopter?

Why wasn’t I more aggressive in demanding the search area be extended? The only salve to my own conscience, I suppose, is that no matter how much I protested, the senior officers in charge had made their minds up and would never have changed course.

At the subsequent fatal ­accident inquiry, the officers in charge conceded that should the same situation arise, they would adopt a different approach.

Why do I think Stephen ran away? I think he was a little boy who was missing his mother and father, who was homesick and who was trying to make his way home to Hamilton, which makes the whole incident even sadder.

As I said, some inquiries remain with you.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/crime/the-case-i-cant-forget-former-detective-878371
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4281 on: August 17, 2018, 05:30:54 AM »
Makes you think doesn't it?  "Why do I think Stephen ran away? I think he was a little boy who was missing his mother and father, who was homesick and who was trying to make his way home to Hamilton, which makes the whole incident even sadder."  Incredible.
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Offline Brietta

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4282 on: August 17, 2018, 09:29:45 AM »
Makes you think doesn't it?  "Why do I think Stephen ran away? I think he was a little boy who was missing his mother and father, who was homesick and who was trying to make his way home to Hamilton, which makes the whole incident even sadder."  Incredible.

Indeed so.

No CCTV cameras in those days to record the eye witnesses on their journey or the passage of the man they saw walking and holding a little boy by the hand.

But what I cannot dismiss is the testimony that a little boy who could not tie his own laces managed to remove his shoes then retie the laces with a double knot.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4283 on: August 17, 2018, 01:23:45 PM »
This interview was taken with a murderer within days of killing his pregnant wife and two daughters aged 3 and 4.


Shanann's Facebook account painted a portrait of a happy family, with a constant feed of photos and videos of her family, friends and herself. Her comments were typically upbeat, saying how happy she was, whether she was running errands, playing with her kids or promoting a health program.

She posted selfies of her and her husband smiling in restaurants, in front of the ocean on vacation and at their house. On one from May 5, she wrote: "I love this man! He's my ROCK!"

She posted a photo on June 19 of some texts with her husband after sending him a sonogram. He replied that he loved the baby already.

She posted: "I love Chris! He's the best dad us girls could ask for."

https://abc11.com/timeline-all-we-know-about-the-watts-family-and-the-killings/3979909/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/16/colorado-man-arrested-after-pregnant-wife-2-children-vanish.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6069735/Chilling-final-picture-posted-murdered-mom-Shanann-Watts-shows-doll-wrapped-FUNERAL-SHROUD.html
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 01:53:53 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4284 on: August 17, 2018, 02:28:17 PM »
This interview was taken with a murderer within days of killing his pregnant wife and two daughters aged 3 and 4.


Shanann's Facebook account painted a portrait of a happy family, with a constant feed of photos and videos of her family, friends and herself. Her comments were typically upbeat, saying how happy she was, whether she was running errands, playing with her kids or promoting a health program.

She posted selfies of her and her husband smiling in restaurants, in front of the ocean on vacation and at their house. On one from May 5, she wrote: "I love this man! He's my ROCK!"

She posted a photo on June 19 of some texts with her husband after sending him a sonogram. He replied that he loved the baby already.

She posted: "I love Chris! He's the best dad us girls could ask for."

https://abc11.com/timeline-all-we-know-about-the-watts-family-and-the-killings/3979909/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/16/colorado-man-arrested-after-pregnant-wife-2-children-vanish.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6069735/Chilling-final-picture-posted-murdered-mom-Shanann-Watts-shows-doll-wrapped-FUNERAL-SHROUD.html

It's not quite right, is it? I just can't explain why. It must be similar to the 'gut feeling' that some policemen get. A hint which leads them to look a little more closely at that person.
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4285 on: August 17, 2018, 06:14:24 PM »
It's not quite right, is it? I just can't explain why. It must be similar to the 'gut feeling' that some policemen get. A hint which leads them to look a little more closely at that person.
It’s “not quite right” because you were watching it with the benefit of hindsight.  You obviously think very highly of yourself, that you share the same “gut feeling” as some expert police officers. 
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline G-Unit

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4286 on: August 17, 2018, 06:35:38 PM »
It’s “not quite right” because you were watching it with the benefit of hindsight.  You obviously think very highly of yourself, that you share the same “gut feeling” as some expert police officers.

Don't you get them? My first strong one was Gordon Wardell.
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4287 on: August 17, 2018, 06:54:10 PM »
Don't you get them? My first strong one was Gordon Wardell.
You only ever remember the gut feelings when you were right, you conveniently forget the ones when you were wrong, but well done for spotting Chris Watts was a murderer from the video, after he confessed.  Very impressive!
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline faithlilly

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4288 on: August 17, 2018, 06:56:06 PM »
Don't you get them? My first strong one was Gordon Wardell.

I find my reaction to the McCanns odd because as a long term member of Liberty and someone who has campaigned for years for prisoners convicted of miscarriages of justice my default position is giving individuals the benefit of the doubt until I’m proved wrong. Right from the beginning though I strongly felt there was something we were not being told.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Wandering Off Topic
« Reply #4289 on: August 17, 2018, 07:01:39 PM »
I prefer to make my decisions based on evidence rather than gut feeling.. Aka... Guesswork.