Was the translation process a limiting factor in the Maddie case?

[G-Unit]

The Portuguese refer to them as statements. The witnesses referred to them as statements and signed them. Therefore they are statements. The opinions of people on forums are irrelevant.

Kate was not interviewed a week after the disappearance because, she said, Gerry got her out of it as he was worried about her 'mental state'. I don't know why the Payne's weren't interviewed at that time.

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[Mr Gray]

The Portuguese refer to them as statements. The witnesses referred to them as statements and signed them. Therefore they are statements. The opinions of people on forums are irrelevant.

Kate was not interviewed a week after the disappearance because, she said, Gerry got her out of it as he was worried about her 'mental state'. I don't know why the Payne's weren't interviewed at that time.

they may well be statements but what value are statements that are non verbatim and translated...very little in my opinion...

[ShiningInLuz]

they may well be statements but what value are statements that are non verbatim and translated...very little in my opinion...

Let's see.  The Portuguese are to be criticised for wanting statements recorded in Portuguese.  For an incident that occurred in Portugal.

Hmmmn.  Not feeling it.

[ferryman]

Let's see.  The Portuguese are to be criticised for wanting statements recorded in Portuguese.  For an incident that occurred in Portugal.

Hmmmn.  Not feeling it.

I think you (slightly) miss the point.  The critic(ism) of statements taken the way they were (irrespective of the country or the circumstances)  is that potential for true meaning (intended in statements given by individual witnesses) to be lost is huge.

[slartibartfast]

I think you (slightly) miss the point.  The critic(ism) of statements taken the way they were (irrespective of the country or the circumstances)  is that potential for true meaning (intended in statements given by individual witnesses) to be lost is huge.

That's great for defence lawyers. "Even though my client said xyz, he didn't mean that, he meant abc."

[Benice]

I think you (slightly) miss the point.  The critic(ism) of statements taken the way they were (irrespective of the country or the circumstances)  is that potential for true meaning (intended in statements given by individual witnesses) to be lost is huge.

I agree.

The language barrier was a huge obstacle IMO.  For instance -  if Madeleine had disappeared in this country - would our police have needed to ask Kate what...  'We let her down'.... meant?     Would they have spent months thinking it was an expression used by UK doctors when a patient died - and was so important to the case that it was one of the 48 questions?    I very much doubt it.

There will be words or phrases in both languages for which there is no precise equivalent translation. The translators themselves mention (by way of notes) some of the difficulties which they encountered.    That fact added to the cultural differences -  made it a situation rife for misunderstandings and wrong conclusions to be the outcome. 

IMO the language barrier and those cultural differences considerably contributed to the PJ's original suspicions about the McCanns and their friends.    'Suspicions' which would not have arisen if the crime had taken place in the UK and had been investigated by UK police.

It's pity that interviews with witnesses in PT were not recorded.   I'm surprised that they weren't - particularly because of the language barrier.

AIMHO

 

[Miss Taken Identity]

I think you (slightly) miss the point.  The critic(ism) of statements taken the way they were (irrespective of the country or the circumstances)  is that potential for true meaning (intended in statements given by individual witnesses) to be lost is huge.

However, subsequentliy, the parents went on a world wide tour for funds search for their daughter, gave interviews and a UK televised reconstruction of their version of acounts, on that basis Amaral still came to the same conclusion so there was no error in translation as far as Amarals' thesis is concerned. There is also the other evidence which he never got hold of, and further recent, relevent  revelations  about residents in PDL and he never got to check out Tannerman or Smithman in relation to this case.

PS; I have never  read Amaral book, and I don't agree with his Thesis as per snippet of information available, I support his right to print it. Just as some people support the McCanns rights as parents to leave small babies alone in an apartment- while they go for a drink and meal.

[ShiningInLuz]

I think you (slightly) miss the point.  The critic(ism) of statements taken the way they were (irrespective of the country or the circumstances)  is that potential for true meaning (intended in statements given by individual witnesses) to be lost is huge.

Sorry, I've read the T7 rogatory statements and they define dire.

Anyone who thinks statements given in Portugal should be other than in Portuguese should seriously consider stopping the waste of your time, and our time, and get on with something constructive.

Anyone who thinks statements given in Portugal should have been recorded in a manner not required by Portuguese law, give it a rest.

The 'twice-translated, non-verbatim' argument doesn't wash.  It never did.

To anyone using it, it would appear you are restricted to those parts of the PJ Files recorded verbatim in English, or perhaps including the non-verbatim reports originally written in English.  Basically, not a lot, so hardly worth your time - you won't get much out of that.

Either get used to statements constructed to Portuguese standards, or get a life.

[ferryman]

Sorry, I've read the T7 rogatory statements and they define dire.

Anyone who thinks statements given in Portugal should be other than in Portuguese should seriously consider stopping the waste of your time, and our time, and get on with something constructive.

Anyone who thinks statements given in Portugal should have been recorded in a manner not required by Portuguese law, give it a rest.

The 'twice-translated, non-verbatim' argument doesn't wash.  It never did.

To anyone using it, it would appear you are restricted to those parts of the PJ Files recorded verbatim in English, or perhaps including the non-verbatim reports originally written in English.  Basically, not a lot, so hardly worth your time - you won't get much out of that.

Either get used to statements constructed to Portuguese standards, or get a life.

The point of discussion is the potential for loss (of originally intended meaning) in statements taken in one language, translated into another, then re-translated.

That you don't understand the point is (largely) neither here nor there.

[Miss Taken Identity]

The point of discussion is the potential for loss (of originally intended meaning) in statements taken in one language, translated into another, then translated.

That you don't understand the point is (largely) neither here nor there.

I just don't get what part of these statements are dodgy, and what significant difference it would make to finding Maddie. The main points are surely:
1. Maddie Disappeared without a trace.
2. her parents failed to prevent this due to their priority for drinking and dining without the children
3. as the last known people to see her alive, they were questioned, mother refused to answer 48 questions.
4. a time line was established within the group and presented to the police- which gave them an alibi and gave credence to an abductor being involved with Maddies disappearance.

The parents had those statements translated themselves, they could have brought up any irregularities at court to throw at Amaral- this didn't happen. They could have published their account and challenged the interpreters, this didn't happen...So, anyway, what parts of the statements are we not to believe according to you and other supporters, who were not there.

[ShiningInLuz]

The point of discussion is the potential for loss (of originally intended meaning) in statements taken in one language, translated into another, then re-translated.

That you don't understand the point is (largely) neither here nor there.

I understand the point perfectly. 

On my blog I have - a 100% accurate transcript of Crimewatch 2013 (verbatim as seems to be the choice of some on here).  This does not translate well into other languages because it uses phrases and constructs unique to English.

I also have a simplified transcript of Crimewatch 2013, designed deliberately to retain the meaning but replace the phrases and constructs unique to English with phrases and constructs that are not so restricted.  I have tested this thoroughly by translating the English to Portuguese, then retranslating from Portuguese to English.

And the idea works well.

I am simply tired of those who insist on UK approaches being used in Portugal.  If folks want UK approaches, stay in the UK, don't travel abroad.

Anyone who wishes to moan about the interviews not being recorded can put up an example of such an interview being recorded in Portugal in 2007, or they are merely moaning.

Anyone who wishes to moan about the interviews being documented in Portuguese is just being plain daft.

The 'twice translated, non-verbatim' argument is childish.

[Carana]

I understand the point perfectly. 

On my blog I have - a 100% accurate transcript of Crimewatch 2013 (verbatim as seems to be the choice of some on here).  This does not translate well into other languages because it uses phrases and constructs unique to English.

I also have a simplified transcript of Crimewatch 2013, designed deliberately to retain the meaning but replace the phrases and constructs unique to English with phrases and constructs that are not so restricted.  I have tested this thoroughly by translating the English to Portuguese, then retranslating from Portuguese to English.

And the idea works well.

I am simply tired of those who insist on UK approaches being used in Portugal.  If folks want UK approaches, stay in the UK, don't travel abroad.

Anyone who wishes to moan about the interviews not being recorded can put up an example of such an interview being recorded in Portugal in 2007, or they are merely moaning.

Anyone who wishes to moan about the interviews being documented in Portuguese is just being plain daft.

The 'twice translated, non-verbatim' argument is childish.

Obviously, diffierent laws and procedures differ from country to country. I'm not sure that that's the issue being discussed. A problem is that when there are language and other barriers in police interviews in any country, it would make sense to have a recording of them so that any potential misunderstandings can be traced more easily - particularly when the police need to call on anyone more or less conversant with the other language who is available at short notice.

A recommendation was introduced in PT in 2013 for at least the first arguido interview to be audio-recorded. Not sure whether that's ended up in the vertical filing cabinet or not.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2969.msg128967#msg128967

Personally, I feel that all police interviews should be recorded, for the protection of both the police and interviewees / suspects in the event that charges are laid.

[Brietta]

I understand the point perfectly. 

On my blog I have - a 100% accurate transcript of Crimewatch 2013 (verbatim as seems to be the choice of some on here).  This does not translate well into other languages because it uses phrases and constructs unique to English.

I also have a simplified transcript of Crimewatch 2013, designed deliberately to retain the meaning but replace the phrases and constructs unique to English with phrases and constructs that are not so restricted.  I have tested this thoroughly by translating the English to Portuguese, then retranslating from Portuguese to English.

And the idea works well.

I am simply tired of those who insist on UK approaches being used in Portugal.  If folks want UK approaches, stay in the UK, don't travel abroad.

Anyone who wishes to moan about the interviews not being recorded can put up an example of such an interview being recorded in Portugal in 2007, or they are merely moaning.

Anyone who wishes to moan about the interviews being documented in Portuguese is just being plain daft.

The 'twice translated, non-verbatim' argument is childish.

I disagree.

However in the context of the thread it is an irrelevance as it is applicable only to the internet tittle tattle of the intervening years and has little to do with Amaral's interpretation of the events which occurred on his watch.

The huge gulf in understanding is exemplified when the use of the idiomatic phrase "We let her down" is totally misunderstood with an obvious lack of endeavour to determine what Kate was actually saying.
Any native English speaker could have explained the exact meaning ... then perhaps he didn't know any who weren't in on the supposed conspiracy in which he beleived.

The misinterpretation of the evidence and the importance of just that one little phrase to the suspicions harboured by the PJ is confirmed at the arguido stage when Kate McCann was asked ~ question 17  What did the expression "we let her down" mean? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7542939.stm


Later the transcript of the documentary of the book affirms ...

11.33 – When she arrived there, she cried out “We let her down”, which is a medical term that is often used in medicine, “she’s gone”, and then everyone came running and everyone used the entrance on this side of the apartment again.


That in my opinion is indicative of a particular mindset which stubbornly persists in adopting the wrong information without bothering to check it out in pursuit of a goal ... which in this instance was not an intention to advance Madeleine's case but was focused on her parents supposed guilt.

[ferryman]

I understand the point perfectly. 

On my blog I have - a 100% accurate transcript of Crimewatch 2013 (verbatim as seems to be the choice of some on here).  This does not translate well into other languages because it uses phrases and constructs unique to English.

I also have a simplified transcript of Crimewatch 2013, designed deliberately to retain the meaning but replace the phrases and constructs unique to English with phrases and constructs that are not so restricted.  I have tested this thoroughly by translating the English to Portuguese, then retranslating from Portuguese to English.

And the idea works well.

I am simply tired of those who insist on UK approaches being used in Portugal.  If folks want UK approaches, stay in the UK, don't travel abroad.

Anyone who wishes to moan about the interviews not being recorded can put up an example of such an interview being recorded in Portugal in 2007, or they are merely moaning.

Anyone who wishes to moan about the interviews being documented in Portuguese is just being plain daft.

The 'twice translated, non-verbatim' argument is childish.

If you regard loss of possible information, context and (intended) meaning as 'plain daft', then I guess you do.

You are wrong (to regard it such).

[ferryman]

I disagree.

However in the context of the thread it is an irrelevance as it is applicable only to the internet tittle tattle of the intervening years and has little to do with Amaral's interpretation of the events which occurred on his watch.

The huge gulf in understanding is exemplified when the use of the idiomatic phrase "We let her down" is totally misunderstood with an obvious lack of endeavour to determine what Kate was actually saying.
Any native English speaker could have explained the exact meaning ... then perhaps he didn't know any who weren't in on the supposed conspiracy in which he beleived.

The misinterpretation of the evidence and the importance of just that one little phrase to the suspicions harboured by the PJ is confirmed at the arguido stage when Kate McCann was asked ~ question 17  What did the expression "we let her down" mean? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7542939.stm


Later the transcript of the documentary of the book affirms ...

11.33 – When she arrived there, she cried out “We let her down”, which is a medical term that is often used in medicine, “she’s gone”, and then everyone came running and everyone used the entrance on this side of the apartment again.


That in my opinion is indicative of a particular mindset which stubbornly persists in adopting the wrong information without bothering to check it out in pursuit of a goal ... which in this instance was not an intention to advance Madeleine's case but was focused on her parents supposed guilt.

Good example.