Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent

[adam]

That's an interesting theory.

There is no dispute that several of the massacre shots were contact shots. Most importantly one of Sheila's shots.

There is also no dispute that there was human blood inside the silencer which was almost certainly Sheila's,  but no blood inside the rifle nozzle.

I don't believe the power of a rifle for shooting rabbits would be enough to create enough back splatter to travel through the silencer into the rifle. There was barely enough back splatter to get into the silencer and the blood inside the silencer was very minimal.

[scipio_usmc]

I just spoke to NNZ.
The blood did reach the barrel, through the silencer.
The ammunition was the same velocity as Bamber.
Robin Bain had the full weight of his head, rigid skull/temple sealing the point of entry IMO.
Sheila was resting the gun in a proximate position to find her throat, missed, and realigned to find her brain.
This is soft tissue vs hard, and there is no implied seal. Think the difference between punching cotton wool and a steel door.

Therefore if they truly did swab the barrel in Bamber, there is a common sense physical explanation for no blowback of blood.

Furthermore, when it is blown back it is in the form of mist, not globule. The 1/4 inch flake is a hoax.

This is all my attempt at eating from the tin with common sense on the label.

A moderator has to be quite short for drawback to be able to travel through it into the rifle barrel.  There was blood on the outside of the barrel in the Bain case not inside the rifle barrel. 

The more I read about that case the more I think they got it wrong in reversing his conviction.

 

 

[Holly Goodhead]

As I said a mist of blood went right down silencer to gun barrel. There is definitely documentation and proof or NNZ would never say it.
There was no debate about whether there was a silencer attached, so the science is not dispute, but of course the fact of blood in the barrel entailed a contact shot for the finale. Each previous bullet cleans the barrel, if not the silencer baffles. It is curious that DB was jailed on a non contact shot to Robin, which is impossible with both ring of soot and blood in gun barrel.

NNZ's point is simple. There will be blood in both silencer and barrel, or blood in neither as a probability. Once the drawn in mist is travelling it does not stop at the end of the silencer, therefore the silencer was not attached when Sheila shot herself.

I don't doubt N-NZ would deliberately mislead and/or isn't careful with the facts but its easy enough to misunderstand, misinterpret and/or experts can get it wrong.  Many of the docs in these cases are ambiguous.   

Research by Prof MacDonnell, NY, who was at one time regarded as a world expert on bloodstains, until his reputation was badly damaged by using his position as a forensic scientist to intimidate a child and further counts of child sex abuse, seems to contradict the distance blood can travel against the line of fire in DB's case.  Albeit the research is based on gsw's fired at a short distance as opposed to contact.  I don't know the length of the silencer in the Bain case but assuming it was similar in size to the one referred to in JB's case (approx 7") then I'm really struggling with blood travelling this far back and depositing in the rifle barrel.  There's a correlation between calibre and distance blood can travel back against the line of fire.  As you know .22 is considered low-powered.

[Holly Goodhead]

From NNZ

Peter Ross, p3653-3654 Bain retrial

A. It wasn’t provided to me, so it’s something which I haven't seen.
Q. If the case note records that, “Blood was found on the silencer, extensive smearing and traces of blood were also found inside the barrel, positive,” that’s what it’s saying here. Does that accord with the answer you gave Mr Mander in relation to the vacuum effect and hard contact wound?
A. Oh it does, it indicates that, I mean, there are a number of people who have been shot. It indicates that at least one of those suffered a relatively hard contact wound.


questions from the court: 3653 -54

Q. One of those Mr Ross, I take it that if there's blood in the barrel it would have to be from the last firing of the rifle that it was vacuumed in?
A. It is far more likely sir because of the movement of the gases, the bullet is designed that it fits very, very snugly into the barrel so any biological material would largely be removed, so it really comes down to the final shot.

Thanks.  This is one of the reasons I'm sceptical about the blood in the silencer/rifle in the Bain case as DNA testing was available at the time of DB's trial.  DNA testing is capable of producing results from poor quality samples unlike blood serology testing used in JB's case.   At the time of JB's trial DNA testing hadn't even been envisaged. 

As I said previously, my understanding is that in the Bain case a total of 5 victims lost their lives to gsw's.  SB was beaten with the rifle/silencer.  And RB suffered a contact wound.  Therefore if experts identified blood in/on rifle/silencer where are the blood test results showing whose blood by way of DNA testing?  In JB's case I can produce for you numerous official docs showing a breakdown of victims' blood groups along with JB's, RWB's and the 1/4" flake supposedly found inside the silencer. 

It would be helpful if you could chase this down Samson as its an extremely important aspect of JB's case and might assist.  Thanks.   

[david1819]

I don't doubt N-NZ would deliberately mislead and/or isn't careful with the facts but its easy enough to misunderstand, misinterpret and/or experts can get it wrong.  Many of the docs in these cases are ambiguous.   

Research by Prof MacDonnell, NY, who was at one time regarded as a world expert on bloodstains, until his reputation was badly damaged by using his position as a forensic scientist to intimidate a child and further counts of child sex abuse, seems to contradict the distance blood can travel against the line of fire in DB's case.  Albeit the research is based on gsw's fired at a short distance as opposed to contact.  I don't know the length of the silencer in the Bain case but assuming it was similar in size to the one referred to in JB's case (approx 7") then I'm really struggling with blood travelling this far back and depositing in the rifle barrel.  There's a correlation between calibre and distance blood can travel back against the line of fire.  As you know .22 is considered low-powered.

Robin Bain shot himself in this position. Its probably due to gravity why the blood got that deep.

[Holly Goodhead]

Robin Bain shot himself in this position. Its probably due to gravity why the blood got that deep.

I guess that's a possibility but there's still a dearth of info re whose blood was in/on rifle/silencer by way of blood test results.  In JB's case the defence were able to argue, albeit badly imo, the blood in the silencer was a mixture of NB's and June's blood from gsw's and/or NB's beating.  We can refer to numerous docs for the blood test results but I can't find anything in DB's case. 

[david1819]

I guess that's a possibility but there's still a dearth of info re whose blood was in/on rifle/silencer by way of blood test results.  In JB's case the defence were able to argue, albeit badly imo, the blood in the silencer was a mixture of NB's and June's blood from gsw's and/or NB's beating.  We can refer to numerous docs for the blood test results but I can't find anything in DB's case.

There is not much comparision here as the silencer was found on the rifle in this case.

If memory serves me correctly. At DBs first trial, it was never disclosed to the defence that there was blood in the silencer/barrel. The prosecution argued that RB was shot at a distance thus couldn't commit suicide. At the second trial the defence knew about the blood so the whole prosecution argument that time round was hard for the Jury to believe.

[Holly Goodhead]

There is not much comparision here as the silencer was found on the rifle in this case.

If memory serves me correctly. At DBs first trial, it was never disclosed to the defence that there was blood in the silencer/barrel. The prosecution argued that RB was shot at a distance thus couldn't commit suicide. At the second trial the defence knew about the blood so the whole prosecution argument that time round was hard for the Jury to believe.

Well there was potentially blood in/on silencer/rifle from any of the vicitms: non-contact gsw's, contact gsw and/or beating SB sustained with an open wound to his head so it was surely important to determine whose blood?  DB was arrested and charged on day 4.   

[tbl]

I'm late to this thread but my top 3 reasons for thinking Jeremy is more likely to be the killer than Sheila are:
1. The killer reloaded a complex weapon twice and fired 25 accurate shots. This implies they were experienced with firearms and in control of the situation throughout. Sheila had virtually no experience of guns.
2. Neville's injuries were inflicted by someone with considerable physical strength. I don't see how Sheila could have done this even if Neville had been wounded.
3. Jeremy's account of the call from Neville, and his reaction to it, is not convincing. Neville would not have made any call while there was a live threat from Sheila. Jeremy's call to Julie before going to the farm is equally suspicious.

[adam]

The main reasons put forward by supporters in my view are -

Julie lied to the police and courts. Because she was jilted.

There was a person alive inside WHF while Bamber and the police were outside.

The silencer evidence was fabricated. Either by the relatives or police.

[Holly Goodhead]

And the most frequently cited reasons for guilt appear to be:

1. Don't believe NB phoned JB

2. SC's found state inconsistent with perception of how SC would appear had she been the perp

3. JM's testimony

[adam]

And the most frequently cited reasons for guilt appear to be:

1. Don't believe NB phoned JB

2. SC's found state inconsistent with perception of how SC would appear had she been the perp

3. JM's testimony

I was going to include Julie as one of my top three reasons. Backed up by a previous thread with 26 disadvantages of Julie going to the police if Bamber was innocent. It's amazing that people believe Julie apparently being jilted would negate  these 26 reasons.

[Samson]

And the most frequently cited reasons for guilt appear to be:

1. Don't believe NB phoned JB

2. SC's found state inconsistent with perception of how SC would appear had she been the perp

3. JM's testimony

1. Well why not phone Jeremy? He is the immediate family member nearby, with a full command of the evening's build up, and so far nothing has happened except Sheila has a gun in hand. She has never shot anyone, no one in the family or whole community has. There is no real reason to expect her to use it, let us be realistic without the benefit of hind sight.

2. SC's found state is just fine if she only shot people with a long gun, and we do not know what she did to clean her hands after the killings. It also seems she was downstairs because her period started, her underwear is in the bucket after June went to bed, and she is found with san prod in place. The underwear will only be bloody before the tampon remember. So we can deduce she went downstairs after going to bed, and probably just before 3 am, waking Nevill.

3. Trial judge said JM testimony was not to be relied on, check. Holly?

[adam]

There are 40 reasons why Bamber would not call Nevill. Already posted on here -

1: Jeremy may not answer. Regardless of whether he heard the phone ringing or not.

2:Neville may not have time. Sheila was going crazy. There were five people inside WHF who were the priority.

3:He may not answer for a long time as was 'sleeping like a log'.

4: Neville may only get the answering machine.

5: Neville will assume the answering machine is switched on. Making it impossible for Jeremy to answer the phone within 3 - 8 rings as he was 'sleeping like a log'.

6: Jeremy did not like Sheila or understand her illness.  So would just make things worse when trying to talk her down.

7: Sheila did not like Jeremy.

8: Another adult, June was available at WHF.

9: The rifle was not powerful, being used for vermin. Neville would know this. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired.

10: Sheila had 'limited'/ no experience with guns. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired.

11: Neville could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit.

12: Neville and June together could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit.

13: Jeremy was three miles away and not dressed. 

14: The police had been called by Neville ten minutes earlier.

15: Neville would be putting his only son in danger.

16: Jeremy may be scared to go over. He told Liz Rimmington that Sheila was going 'back to the nut house' and told the police she had committed child abuse. Now Neville had told him she had 'gone crazy' with a gun.

17: Jeremy did not have a key to WHF so would have to smash the door down, or smash a window. Or shout through the letter box. Making Sheila more excitable.  Neville may not have been aware that Jeremy could get in through windows.

18: Sheila would not be pleased to see him.

19: Jeremy would be reluctant to rush over if answering the phone. Having poor relations with all the family.

20: Jeremy may refuse to go over. Being tired and upset at being woken.Lookout said it was common for Sheila to have 'one of her turns' so he may have decided to go back to bed.

21: Jeremy may not rush over. Maybe wasting up to 26 minutes doing strange things.

22: Jeremy may just ring nearby farm workers and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do himself and may consider a better option.

23: Jeremy may just ring the Foakes's and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do and may consider a better option. 

24: Neville calling someone would antagonise Sheila. She may even brutally beat someone.

25: Neville could call the Foakes's. Who were two adults living at WHF.

26: There was no time to make any calls if Sheila had 'gone' crazy with a gun. 

27: When there was time to make a call Neville had the option of restraining Sheila. Getting June to assist.

28: There was no time to wait for someone to arrive. Sheila had 'gone 'crazy'.

28: Relations between the two were poor and getting worse.   After Jeremy robbed the caravan site and spent the money.

30: Neville would be prepared to take a torso bullet in order to restrain Sheila. Knowing the gun was for shooting vermin/rabbits and a torso shot would not kill him.

31: The kitchen phone was downstairs. Meaning everyone would be left upstairs. Unless Sheila had accompanied him downstairs.

32: If the answering machine was switched off, as his supporters claim. Jeremy would not hear his downstairs phone. If his bedroom door was shut.

33: Neville was bigger and stronger than Jeremy and the head of the family.

34: Sheila would have to let Neville open the door when Jeremy arrives. Or Neville would have to put himself in danger by getting to the front door against Sheila's wishes.

35: Sheila is more likely to fire bullets if more people start pressurising her and arriving on the scene.

36: Neville would be aware that he was the person who always had most success in calming down an excited Sheila. If he couldn't, then someone who thought Sheila was a 'looney' certainly could not.

37: Jeremy was not known to be especially brave. So may refuse to go anywhere near the inside of WHF. Preferring to stay 50 yards from the entrance.  This is what happened.

38: Neville would be implicating his son if there were any injuries or fatalities. As Jeremy would be first on the scene and first witness. This is what happened.

39: Jeremy was not known for being especially brave. So may have just phoned the police. Neville had either already done this. Or wanted to keep things private. Jeremy did in fact call the police.

40: It is not standard practice to call relations on the phone at 3am when you're life is in danger. There are no other examples of this happe

[Holly Goodhead]

I was going to include Julie as one of my top three reasons. Backed up by a previous thread with 26 disadvantages of Julie going to the police if Bamber was innocent. It's amazing that people believe Julie apparently being jilted would negate  these 26 reasons.

I rather think it is more a case of how effective "The treacherous Stan Jones" was in convincing JM that a) JB was responsible and b) how much trouble she would be in if she didn't play ball.  Just my opinion of course.

What did the police manual say about 21 year old females being interviewed over serious crimes by a middle-aged male police officer over days on end, isolated from others including her parents, and without access to legal representation?