Author Topic: The Smithman e-fits  (Read 137157 times)

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Offline blonk

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1020 on: March 23, 2018, 11:07:27 PM »
CITES continued


I was asked for a cite for Martin Smith describing 'a disturbing encounter' with the man he claimed to have seen

REPLY: It was in the Daily Mail report, 3 January 2008, as follows:

“AN IRISH holidaymaker has spoken publicly for the first time of his disturbing encounter with a man carrying a child wrapped in a blanket on the night Madeleine McCann disappeared.

=====

I was also asked for a cite for Martin Smith/members of the Irish family having met with DCI Andy Redwood/Operation Grange twice, once in 2012 and once in 2013   

Regrettably I cannot locate the reference yet - but I drew it from a media report which was the basis for my asking a specific Freedom of Information Act question about that - and related 'Smithman' matters - in September 2014.

Here is the list of questions I asked at the time:

QUOTE
 
Dear Metropolitan Police Service (MPS),

Questions about two e-fits of a suspect issued by Operation Grange

On 14 October 2013, on a special edition of BBC's Crimewatch programme seen by an estimated 6.7 million people, DCI Andy Redwood of Operation Grange displayed two e-fits, said to be of a man who, according to presenter Matthew Amroliwala, 'could  now be the key to the entire mystery'. DCI Redwood added later in the programme: "[We have] two e-fits that have never been in the public domain of this one individual – [it's] really important for us to understand who he is".

It was suggested by the programme that this 'sighting' was by 'members of an Irish family'. However, most people who have seen these two images have said that they look like two very different people. One is clearly younger-looking than the other, has a thinnish, triangular-shaped face, thin lips, a long nose, a much smaller chin, and has a quite different hairstyle from the other.

Matthew Amroliwala said: "An Irish family witnessed a  man carrying a child. Could this have been Madeleine, and her abductor?"

Then DCI Redwood said: "He was a white man, in his 30s, with brown hair..."

Matthew Amroliwala then said: "Two of the witnesses helped create e-fits of the man they saw. Today, for the first time, we can reveal the true significance of these images".

However, he did not say explicitly that these e-fits were drawn up from the Irish family's recollections.

Further concerns about these two e-fits have been expressed because, according to information in the public domain, these e-fits were created in October 2008, 17 months after Madeleine was reported missing, and statements on the public record by members of the Irish family admit that they only saw this man for a few seconds at the most, in the dark, with 'weak' street lighting.   

It has also been stated on the public record that a member or members of this Irish family spoke to DCI Andy Redwood and/or members of his team 'once in 2012 and once in 2013'.

In the light of the above concerns, please provide the following information:

1. On what date were these two e-fits created?

2. Did members of the Irish family create these e-fits, or were the 'two witnesses' mentioned by Matthew Amroliwala who drew up the e-fits actually other witnesses? If so, please state who they were.

3. Are the e-fits of the same man, or not?

4. On what date were these two e-fits first shown to members of Operation Grange?

5. On what dates in 2012 and 2013, or otherwise in 2011 and 2014, did members of Operation Grange (a) meet with members of the Irish family or (b) have contact with the Irish family, whether by telephone, e-mail, letter or otherwise?

Yours faithfully,

Anthony Bennett

UNQUOTE

I will keep looking for the original reference

Offline misty

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1021 on: March 23, 2018, 11:09:05 PM »
the date I see (partially) is 2008-09-02 that would be their production date surely.

Enlarged .

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1022 on: March 23, 2018, 11:25:22 PM »
Enlarged .
Correction  2008-09-04  4th of September 2008 is when the e-fits were made based on the date on the e-fit.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1023 on: March 23, 2018, 11:42:47 PM »
Blonk you quote Mary Smith as saying ""The family added: “…Luz was very, very quiet at that time of the year and the likelihood of two young children being carried around like this is very small. Our timings are a bit different. She saw the man at 9.15pm. We say 9.45 or 9.50pm…I don’t know if this information will help the McCanns. We kept interested in what’s going on but we tried to avoid the limelight”. "
Nowhere in the Smith statements is the time of 9.45 even hinted at.

They give at times the time range "21H50/22H00"  which is averaging 21H55 rather than 21H47.  Considering it would take 5 minutes to walk to there from the OC G5A apartment the earliest Smithman could have picked up Madeleine was 21H42 the approximate time that Russell O'Brien says he is going back to the Tapas.
If my theory holds this quote from Blonk is going to be very significant in solving the case.  How many of the Kelly's Bar till receipts were before 21H47?

If they were really on the road at 21H47 they aren't buying drinks.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 09:06:50 PM by Robittybob1 »
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Carana

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1024 on: March 23, 2018, 11:53:55 PM »
blonk
"It seems likely therefore that the efits may have been drawn up before the PJ archiving report in July 2008."         



Adrian Gatton
‏
 
@AdrianGatton
 Feb 4
More
Operation Omega: Smiths first interviewed by team 02/08/08. E-fits done 4th Sept 2008. Omega memo 08/09/08: "the SMITH family are now (and should always have been treated as) the investigation’s most important witnesses". Met release e-fits 2013 #OperationOmega #McCann #Halligen

Good find, Byron.

My impression was that they were done once the case had been archived, but I couldn't find anything to substantiate it.

Offline misty

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1025 on: March 23, 2018, 11:58:42 PM »
Did the belated production of the efits by Martin & Peter Smith help or hinder the McCanns' search for Madeleine?

Offline Carana

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1026 on: March 24, 2018, 12:02:02 AM »
Did the belated production of the efits by Martin & Peter Smith help or hinder the McCanns' search for Madeleine?

I've never understood why Amaral didn't organise it in May 2007.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1027 on: March 24, 2018, 12:06:41 AM »
I've never understood why Amaral didn't organise it in May 2007.
IMO the whole Smith family episode stinks.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1028 on: March 24, 2018, 12:07:44 AM »
Did the belated production of the efits by Martin & Peter Smith help or hinder the McCanns' search for Madeleine?

IMO they did neither. OG must have known how unreliable efits made so long after the event would be and yet they still put Smithman forward as the most important piece of the puzzle still be found. I can’t believe it was simply incompetence so why publicise pictures the drawing up of which went against every police guideline on efits there is ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline misty

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1029 on: March 24, 2018, 12:12:52 AM »
IMO they did neither. OG must have known how unreliable efits made so long after the event would be and yet they still put Smithman forward as the most important piece of the puzzle still be found. I can’t believe it was simply incompetence so why publicise pictures the drawing up of which went against every police guideline on efits there is ?

I'm not sure DCI Redwood said Smithman was the most important piece of the puzzle; rather SY would really like to eliminate the sighting as an innocent holidaymaker. IMO it's important to listen to what DCI Redwood actually said.

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1030 on: March 24, 2018, 12:23:36 AM »
I'm not sure DCI Redwood said Smithman was the most important piece of the puzzle; rather SY would really like to eliminate the sighting as an innocent holidaymaker. IMO it's important to listen to what DCI Redwood actually said.

Why do you think he used efits that he knew flew in the face of all police efit guidelines Misty ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline misty

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1031 on: March 24, 2018, 12:25:09 AM »
Why do you think he used efits that he knew flew in the face of all police efit guidelines Misty ?

What other option did SY have if they wished to make a public appeal to identify/eliminate Smithman?

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1032 on: March 24, 2018, 12:35:31 AM »
What other option did SY have if they wished to make a public appeal to identify/eliminate Smithman?

Any good defence lawyer would drive a horse and cart through any identification based upon those efits so why did Redwood take that chance ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline misty

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1033 on: March 24, 2018, 12:46:26 AM »
Any good defence lawyer would drive a horse and cart through any identification based upon those efits so why did Redwood take that chance ?

Why would an innocent holidaymaker have needed a defence lawyer? If he could prove he was in Luz on the night in question, was walking past LuzDoc at around 10pm & had a 3 or 4 yr old blonde daughter wearing her pj's with him then the sighting could be eliminated.
If he was named as someone who was in Luz that night but had no given reason to be carrying a child then I'm sure he'd have been made an arguido by now.
Rather like the dog alerts, the efits are intelligence not evidence as both MS & PS categorically stated they would not recognise the man again.

All IMO.

ETA Amaral was prepared to take a chance based on the sighting of a man, without the benefit of any efits. Why else would he have asked for MS to return to Portugal?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 12:53:03 AM by misty »

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #1034 on: March 24, 2018, 12:54:39 AM »
Why would an innocent holidaymaker have needed a defence lawyer? If he could prove he was in Luz on the night in question, was walking past LuzDoc at around 10pm & had a 3 or 4 yr old blonde daughter wearing her pj's with him then the sighting could be eliminated.
If he was named as someone who was in Luz that night but had no given reason to be carrying a child then I'm sure he'd have been made an arguido by now.
Rather like the dog alerts, the efits are intelligence not evidence as both MS & PS categorically stated they would not recognise the man again.

All IMO.

ETA Amaral was prepared to take a chance based on the sighting of a man, without the benefit of any efits. Why else would he have asked for MS to return to Portugal?
Why is he a holidaymaker?
What's up, old man?