Author Topic: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence  (Read 194113 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #270 on: March 06, 2018, 01:46:37 PM »
You are giving your own opinion of what evidence is... I'm giving a recognised standard of evidence

So are we only discussing evidence which is admissible in court? Grime's opinion on the alerts would be admissible then.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #271 on: March 06, 2018, 01:49:31 PM »
So are we only discussing evidence which is admissible in court? Grime's opinion on the alerts would be admissible then.

Can you see any situation  where Grimes opinion... The alerts have no evidential value... Would be if interest to the court

Offline misty

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #272 on: March 06, 2018, 01:56:41 PM »


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

snipped
The viewing of these videos, whose contents is very impressive, becomes essential to understand the dogs' action and signalling, more than by any words.

These dogs, which had already been used on multiple occasions by the Scotland Yard and by the FBI with positive results, are evidence collection means and do not serve as evidence; any residue, even if invisible to the naked eye, which is collected using this type of dogs, has to be subject to forensics testing in a credentialed laboratory.


Martin Grime, the dogs' instructor himself [20], mentions in his report: "Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime investigations"; or scientist Dr John Lowe [21] who refers that the FSS has no scientific support about the use of the dogs as a fundament for the collection of biological residues and that normally take the handler's word for certification, that asserts that the dogs are more sensitive than any chemical technique or other techniques that are normally used by crime scene sector experts.

In that sense, forensic examinations were performed in the areas and on the objects that were marked and signalled by the blood dog, especially in a credentialed British lab (Forensic Science Service - cf. Appendixes I and VII - FSS Final Report), and also, some of them, at the National Institute for Legal Medicine (cf. Appendix I), whose final results failed to corroborate the canine markings, that is to say that cellular material was collected, which was nevertheless not identified as belonging to a specific person, and it was not even possible to establish said material's quality (namely if it could be blood or another type of bodily fluid)


I cannot see anything in that summary which would suggest the alerts or the handler's opinion would be used by the PP in a Portuguese court.

Offline Carana

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #273 on: March 06, 2018, 02:00:34 PM »
As far as courts are concerned there are two types of evidence.
Direct Evidence and Indirect Evidence a.k.a Circumstantial Evidence. The judge is final arbiter on what may be presented in his court.
Few convictions are realised from direct evidence alone.
As far as this thread is concerned I wonder what Talking Heads would say about it?  This maybe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWtCittJyr0

Lol Alice re the song.

Yes, there have been convictions in the absence of a body. Some may be justified by a solid mass of other evidence, others not.

In this case, aside from the somewhat iffy issue of dog alerts, and non-corroborating forensic evidence, what solid evidence is there to come to any conclusion whatsoever?


Offline Carana

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #274 on: March 06, 2018, 02:35:54 PM »
I’m not arguing that but often finding DNA, such as when someone is known to have lived at the property, is not evidence.

I agree.

It's evidence that the person, or items that may have been in contact with the person and somehow transferred, were found.

It's not evidence, per se, that anything nefarious had happened, unless there is no innocent explanation as to how that DNA got there.

Offline Carana

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #275 on: March 06, 2018, 02:37:37 PM »
Can you see any situation  where Grimes opinion... The alerts have no evidential value... Would be if interest to the court

Which court, in which country?


Offline Mr Gray

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #276 on: March 06, 2018, 03:36:16 PM »
Which court, in which country?

As I said... Any court

Offline Carana

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #277 on: March 06, 2018, 04:29:28 PM »
As I said... Any court

Do you mean in theory?

If so, any country that hasn't banned, or even one that has never been faced with whether or not such testimony is acceptable or not, might do do.

If that happens, then presumably it's up to the defence to question it... providing the defence counsel has more than an hour to read up on and prepare the whole defence.

Offline faithlilly

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #278 on: March 06, 2018, 04:54:03 PM »
I've no idea what you're trying to make me say, nor why, Faith. lol

For the umpteennth time, Grime never said that Eddie would only react to the physical presence of blood, but he did say that about Keela.

He also never said that Eddie alerted to the residual scent from blood. You are simply making assumptions.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #279 on: March 06, 2018, 05:31:13 PM »
Can you see any situation  where Grimes opinion... The alerts have no evidential value... Would be if interest to the court

I think he could say a lot more than that.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #280 on: March 06, 2018, 05:34:18 PM »
I think he could say a lot more than that.

He could... But anything he said Re the alerts would carry that caveat making it rather useless

Offline Carana

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #281 on: March 06, 2018, 05:46:36 PM »
He also never said that Eddie alerted to the residual scent from blood. You are simply making assumptions.

I know... but why make the distinction between one dog and not the other? Grime stated that Eddie alerted to residual scent (the cone spiel). He never stated that he would alert to residual scents except blood, AFAIK.

All I'm saying is that that early matrix (not stated by Grime himself, but by a certain faction of case followers) is simplistic to the exclusion of other plausible possibilities. If people wish to stick with that mantra, then that's their choice. Ten years on, those that haven't realised that it may not be as simple as that are unlikely to accept other possibilities anyway.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #282 on: March 06, 2018, 05:57:14 PM »
In the case of the murder of Bianca Jones Grime's evidence was allowed and it's use was upheld on appeal. An interesting read.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline faithlilly

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #283 on: March 06, 2018, 05:58:44 PM »
I know... but why make the distinction between one dog and not the other? Grime stated that Eddie alerted to residual scent (the cone spiel). He never stated that he would alert to residual scents except blood, AFAIK.

All I'm saying is that that early matrix (not stated by Grime himself, but by a certain faction of case followers) is simplistic to the exclusion of other plausible possibilities. If people wish to stick with that mantra, then that's their choice. Ten years on, those that haven't realised that it may not be as simple as that are unlikely to accept other possibilities anyway.

This is what Grime said in his profile.

‘'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate

human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any

environment or terrain’
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #284 on: March 06, 2018, 06:00:46 PM »
In the case of the murder of Bianca Jones Grime's evidence was allowed and it's use was upheld on appeal. An interesting read.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html

Also in the case of Aurelio Montano cadaver dog evidence gained a conviction without a body. http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/aurora-beacon-news/chi-former-aurora-man-found-guilty-of-wifes-1990-murder-20131030-story.html
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?