Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: DCI on June 26, 2013, 09:24:58 PM
Title: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on June 26, 2013, 09:24:58 PM
Have you a link proving the McCanns' translator(s) were really good ones (just one example of a misunderstanding in the files' "unprofessional" translation will do) or is it just speculation?
Seems even Google translate is more honest, than some translators.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 26, 2013, 09:26:58 PM
Have you a link proving the McCanns' translator(s) were really good ones (just one example of a misunderstanding in the files' "unprofessional" translation will do) or is it just speculation?
Salut, Anne. I have no idea about the translations that the McCanns had done - although I would wager that they were from a professionaly accredited translation agency.
The most important point is that Scotland Yard WILL have professional, accurately-translated files at their disposal.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 26, 2013, 09:31:38 PM
Salut, Anne. I have no idea about the translations that the McCanns had done - although I would wager that they were from a professionaly accredited translation agency.
The most important point is that Scotland Yard WILL have professional, accurately-translated files at their disposal.
Salut Rachel, ma belle ! I wonder what information has Mrs B about the "properly translated" files detained by the McCanns.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 26, 2013, 09:38:54 PM
THE HONOURABLE MR JUSTICE TUGENDHAT ____________________
Between: (1) GERRY MCCANN (2) KATE MCCANN Claimant - and -
TONY BENNETT Defendant ___________
- it contains a translation of the conclusions of the AG's legal summary, presented to the Court by Carter Ruck. Are you under the illusion that a High Court in the UK would accept anything BUT a certified professional translation of any kind? Or did you think you could just quote source as "Pamalam's site" or "translated by Ines" to the UK High Court?
THE HONOURABLE MR JUSTICE TUGENDHAT ____________________
Between: (1) GERRY MCCANN (2) KATE MCCANN Claimant - and -
TONY BENNETT Defendant ___________
- it contains a translation of the conclusions of the AG's legal summary, presented to the Court by Carter Ruck. Are you under the illusion that a High Court in the UK would accept anything BUT a certified professional translation of any kind? Or did you think you could just quote source as "Pamalam's site" or "translated by Ines" to the UK High Court?
This is not what I asked, Mrs. B. As you assumed the McCanns had "properly translated" files, I solicited an example showing the difference. I think I noted some slight "interpretations" in the PGR report's translation. There was a debate on this on a thread, I think Chinagirl originated it. If the translation paid by the Fund was "professional", why did SY ask another translation?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 26, 2013, 10:19:38 PM
Professional translation presented to the High Court:
The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports…
Version on Pamalm's site:
The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.
=====
ETA Whether NSY have their own translations or if they're using the McCanns' I simply don't know. The good thing about professionally accredited translations is that they can be used by ANYONE, so I guess it's possible they have been given a copy.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 26, 2013, 10:47:15 PM
ETA Whether NSY have their own translations or if they're using the McCanns' I simply don't know. The good thing about professionally accredited translations is that they can be used by ANYONE, so I guess it's possible they have been given a copy.
I seem to remember they argued the review hadn't even contemplated one third because of the translation issue.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on June 26, 2013, 11:13:49 PM
This is not what I asked, Mrs. B. As you assumed the McCanns had "properly translated" files, I solicited an example showing the difference. I think I noted some slight "interpretations" in the PGR report's translation. There was a debate on this on a thread, I think Chinagirl originated it. If the translation paid by the Fund was "professional", why did SY ask another translation?
SY would have had to have their own translations done. Thats a bit like saying why didn't they use Amarals version!
Detectives spent the first five months reading a huge file of case material which had to be translated into English from Portuguese.
The only mention re. the break-in in her statement is the following:
When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
No details whatsoever about the actual incidents from what I can find.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Exactly. No mention of a front door being opened as DCI claimed.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 26, 2013, 11:22:42 PM
And no mention of the old lady heroically trying to drag the thief BACK into the apartment by his ankles either, funny enough...
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 26, 2013, 11:24:48 PM
Professional translation presented to the High Court:
The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports…
Version on Pamalm's site:
The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.
=====
ETA Whether NSY have their own translations or if they're using the McCanns' I simply don't know. The good thing about professionally accredited translations is that they can be used by ANYONE, so I guess it's possible they have been given a copy.
Mrs. B, I don't know who and under which conditions the translations financed by the Fund were done, but all I can tell is that the extract you sent is worse than Astro's translation. Seing only that extract I'll not risk saying it is biased, but I confirm Astro's translation is the only rigorous one. The non-involvement of Madeleine's arguido "person of interest" is missing parents in any criminally the original says "penally"* significant action is apparent this is wrong : seems to result (I admit the PGR is not well at ease and his syntax betrays it) from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports…namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine (missing ?) * For instance, if they concealed their daughter's body, it is not penally relevant, whereas if they'd killed their daughter, that would be "criminal". I just hope that the SY's translations are better than the McCann's ones.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on June 26, 2013, 11:32:15 PM
Mrs. B, I don't know who and under which conditions the translations financed by the Fund were done, but all I can tell is that the extract you sent is worse than Astro's translation. Seing only that extract I'll not risk saying it is biased, but I confirm Astro's translation is the only rigorous one. The non-involvement of Madeleine's arguido "person of interest" is missing parents in any criminally the original says "penally"* significant action is apparent this is wrong : seems to result (I admit the PGR is not well at ease and his syntax betrays it) from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports…namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine (missing ?) * For instance, if they concealed their daughter's body, it is not penally relevant, whereas if they'd killed their daughter, that would be "criminal". I just hope that the SY's translations are better than the McCann's ones.
No the first version is translated into proper ENGLISH, that's the hallmark of a professional translation, they're generally a lot shorter. The second version is translated into something akin to Pigeon English.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 27, 2013, 02:11:18 AM
No the first version is translated into proper ENGLISH, that's the hallmark of a professional translation, they're generally a lot shorter. The second version is translated into something akin to Pigeon English.
The "McCann" paid translation (which isn't signed..) doesn't respect the original, and there's a mistranslation. It is no literature here, the point is to be the closest possible to the original. BTW which translation do you use, Mrs. B, the McCann one or the one you're mocking ?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 27, 2013, 02:12:47 AM
I never saw it, of course, but Mrs. B suggested she did and finally sent an extract.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Chinagirl on June 27, 2013, 07:57:15 AM
Discussions about the quality of the translations undertaken by amateurs with a certain bias have already occurred on this forum. Perhaps Guedes should refer to the relevant thread.
To suggest that Astro's rendering of the particular paragraph under discussion in this thread is superior to that done by a professional translator and published as part of a judgment by a senior justice of the UK High Court is arrant nonsense. There is far more to an accurate translation than merely translating each word or phrase of the one language into the other. Astro's work was fine enough for interested members of the various forums dedicated to this case, but nowhere near good enough, or accurate enough, for judicial purposes, or the Scotland Yard review team, or the McCanns themselves.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Benice on June 27, 2013, 08:57:08 AM
Discussions about the quality of the translations undertaken by amateurs with a certain bias have already occurred on this forum. Perhaps Guedes should refer to the relevant thread.
To suggest that Astro's rendering of the particular paragraph under discussion in this thread is superior to that done by a professional translator and published as part of a judgment by a senior justice of the UK High Court is arrant nonsense. There is far more to an accurate translation than merely translating each word or phrase of the one language into the other. Astro's work was fine enough for interested members of the various forums dedicated to this case, but nowhere near good enough, or accurate enough, for judicial purposes, or the Scotland Yard review team, or the McCanns themselves.
This is true. IMO There are examples of the wrong words being chosen by the interpreter - which are not in themselves wrong per se, but which give the wrong impression.
I believe the word 'control' was chosen when 'monitor' should have been used.
Also I think the word 'staged' was chosen instead of 'arranged' - concerning the Rev. Hubbard.
Both have caused no end of contraversy.
I'm sure there must be many more.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on June 27, 2013, 11:41:29 AM
Here's another lie from Ines
According to 'wonderful translator' Ines:
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic13549.html
Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother,
Really? Because that isn't what the original says.....
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 27, 2013, 02:06:26 PM
Ines translated an enormous number of files for the sake of people like you and Portuguese isn't her mother language. I reckon you suppressed this introduction : VESTIGES COLLECTED 5….. Fingerprints….Inside interior window of the children’s bedroom…..DBT…..Suf 5 fingerprints, and not 18.. Now thanks for mentioning the medium finger omission, I'll e-mail Pamalam about that.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on June 27, 2013, 03:58:21 PM
Ines translated an enormous number of files for the sake of people like you and Portuguese isn't her mother language. I reckon you suppressed this introduction : VESTIGES COLLECTED 5….. Fingerprints….Inside interior window of the children’s bedroom…..DBT…..Suf 5 fingerprints, and not 18.. Now thanks for mentioning the medium finger omission, I'll e-mail Pamalam about that.
And nobody thought to check the translation?
Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother,
Remarks: The fingerprint traces collected are identified with the middle fingers of the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), the child's mother
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 27, 2013, 04:10:49 PM
Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother,
Remarks: The fingerprint traces collected are identified with the middle fingers of the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), the child's mother
DCI, as I said, I've already e-mailed Pamalam and she already answered me she had forwarded to Ines. It's not the first time I see a mistake and every time I did it was immediately corrected. I read the files in Portuguese, so the opportunity to compare the original with the translation can't be but fortuitous.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on June 27, 2013, 04:11:04 PM
Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother,
Really? Because that isn't what the original says.....
There would seem to be an error in the translation: a few words are missing which would have specified that the prints concerned the middle finger of her left hand as opposed to what may be assumed to be handprints.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on June 27, 2013, 07:12:40 PM
Unsure what all the fuss is about here, whether it was 5 prints (duplicate) from a few fingers or 5 prints from a whole hand, whats the difference? Making mountains out of molehills comes to mind.
When the files were released and voluntary translators set to work on them, spending thousands of unpaid hours, they did as best they could, Portuguese is a language with so many nuances, not every iota is going to be 100% correct, but to suggest Ines or others deliberately mistranslated things from an agenda to lie is ludicrous at the very very best. if anyone with ingratitude thinks this is the case, then frankly theydont have the right to quote any part of the translated files and use them in their arguments,imo
Another question is WHY did the Brit police have to get the files translated if the mccanns had already had them professionally translated? Any ideas?
Lastly if the outside prints on the shutters which were insufficient belonged to an abductor it means they didnt wear gloves and if they didnt, their prints would have been on the window as well, when they opened it, but none were found, apart from Kates, so that means the entry via the window is a no go
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: sadie on June 27, 2013, 07:25:41 PM
Unsure what all the fuss is about here, whether it was 5 prints (duplicate) from a few fingers or 5 prints from a whole hand, whats the difference? Making mountains out of molehills comes to mind.
When the files were released and voluntary translators set to work on them, spending thousands of unpaid hours, they did as best they could, Portuguese is a language with so many nuances, not every iota is going to be 100% correct, but to suggest Ines or others deliberately mistranslated things from an agenda to lie is ludicrous at the very very best. if anyone with ingratitude thinks this is the case, then frankly theydont have the right to quote any part of the translated files and use them in their arguments,imo
Another question is WHY did the Brit police have to get the files translated if the mccanns had already had them professionally translated? Any ideas?
To the contrary Red
The detail is of absolute importance.
You have to have things that are true to build from. In Engineering we called it a datum line. You cannot build on foundations that are not solid, and untruths are just that ... totally wobbly.
Of course the Brit police will get the files translated themselves. They may be able to find out lots about the peeps intentions who did the original translations. They are probably genuine mistakes, but some might not be.
The police will be very interested in these people, to find out if the mistakes were genuine, just sloppiness, or whether the translators had an agenda.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: sadie on June 27, 2013, 08:12:22 PM
So the Mccanns own professional translators that they used years before SY got involves to get the files translated were sloppy, biased and with an agenda at 100k? And the police are interested in them? Fine. LOL. Dont divert the question, it was why didnt SY use the professional translations the Mccanns had procured. Any answer to that simple question? oh and PS you are allowed to atrempt to reply to that but after that dont address me again as I have requested umpteen times, not interested.
No questions diverted. The Mccanns have been conned before, they might have been again. The police would of course have to get independent translations.
As I suspect you know ,but predfer to be contray about it, I am particularly talking about some of the suspect translations that we have seen before the Mccanns people got involved. Translations by PT peeps who spoke brilliant English. I personally know of, and have prints of proving it, of one translation that was changed to suit their agenda after, I mentioned it on forums. About 3 years ago it was subtly changed, but it altered the meaning totally.
And NO, I am NOT going to share it.
SY are aware.
....moderated ...
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on June 27, 2013, 08:49:26 PM
Refere também um episódio em que o Gerry falou com um Polícia, desconhece a força Policial, alegando que era necessário mais agentes de autoridade par efectuaram a busca.
Another molehill made into a mountain and accusations of volunteer translators deliberately lying..... It is clear from bothtranslations that Gerry asked for more officers to help in the search, it is clear from one that he asked for more senior authorities to be involved ie the PJ, that is all, he was not happy with just the gnr there as they were not an investigative force, laughable
Perhaps all those complaining can go try translate some of the tapas groups shambolic rogatoryinterviews as even english people have trouble reading them and trying to understand what they mean and they have the brass neck to complain about minor translation issues and making them out tobe somethinf they are not, as I said before, if you think that youhave no right to quote anything from the files and your ingratitude is pathetic
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: faithlilly on June 27, 2013, 10:08:20 PM
Take it up with mccann files, they posted it, from the Express 8((()*/
The Express @)(++(*
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on June 27, 2013, 10:15:14 PM
Personally, I find that the volunteer translators have made a huge effort. Without them many of us wouldn't have had a clue as to the content of the files.
There are, however, some mistakes and possibly more than one questionable instances of interpretation.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 27, 2013, 10:29:18 PM
This translation issue is basically a question of confidence. Mrs B believes the Fund paid translation of the final report is better than Astro's. Why ? She doesn't know Portuguese. Ah, those who did it are "professionals" (not identified). I compared the two translation : Astro's and the paid one. There's a mistranslation in the second, and this is serious since the translation was used by the court that judged Mr Bennett. I beg from now on that whoever cites a translation made by Astro, Ines, or any other to be aware he/she uses the work of someone who generously did it to inform and to indicate the name of the translator. Please.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on June 27, 2013, 10:50:48 PM
This translation issue is basically a question of confidence. Mrs B believes the Fund paid translation of the final report is better than Astro's. Why ? She doesn't know Portuguese. Ah, those who did it are "professionals" (not identified). I compared the two translation : Astro's and the paid one. There's a mistranslation in the second, and this is serious since the translation was used by the court that judged Mr Bennett. I beg from now on that whoever cites a translation made by Astro, Ines, or any other to be aware he/she uses the work of someone who generously did it to inform and to indicate the name of the translator. Please.
I'd have to find the original thread about that... wherever that was.
Two instances of what I found to be odd translations were the two that DCI mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Chinagirl on June 28, 2013, 07:40:11 AM
This translation issue is basically a question of confidence. Mrs B believes the Fund paid translation of the final report is better than Astro's. Why ? She doesn't know Portuguese. Ah, those who did it are "professionals" (not identified). I compared the two translation : Astro's and the paid one. There's a mistranslation in the second, and this is serious since the translation was used by the court that judged Mr Bennett. I beg from now on that whoever cites a translation made by Astro, Ines, or any other to be aware he/she uses the work of someone who generously did it to inform and to indicate the name of the translator. Please.
Given the poor quality of your own English, it is extraordinarily arrogant of you to suggest that Astro's translation is superior to that done by a professional translator which formed part of Mr Justice Tugendhat's judgment. What is this "serious mistranslation?"
I repeat what I have said more than once in this forum: the translations undertaken by Astro, Ines, et al. were adequate for the various forums and blogs interested in this case, but nowhere near good enough for the SY investigation or for the court. To suggest otherwise is arrant nonsense.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: faithlilly on June 28, 2013, 09:44:20 AM
Given the poor quality of your own English, it is extraordinarily arrogant of you to suggest that Astro's translation is superior to that done by a professional translator which formed part of Mr Justice Tugendhat's judgment. What is this "serious mistranslation?"
I repeat what I have said more than once in this forum: the translations undertaken by Astro, Ines, et al. were adequate for the various forums and blogs interested in this case, but nowhere near good enough for the SY investigation or for the court. To suggest otherwise is arrant nonsense.
And as, I assume, you don't speak Portuguese, how on earth are you able to judge that ?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Eleanor on June 28, 2013, 09:50:29 AM
This translation issue is basically a question of confidence. Mrs B believes the Fund paid translation of the final report is better than Astro's. Why ? She doesn't know Portuguese. Ah, those who did it are "professionals" (not identified). I compared the two translation : Astro's and the paid one. There's a mistranslation in the second, and this is serious since the translation was used by the court that judged Mr Bennett. I beg from now on that whoever cites a translation made by Astro, Ines, or any other to be aware he/she uses the work of someone who generously did it to inform and to indicate the name of the translator. Please.
Mr. Bennett paid for a translation? I find that hard to believe.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2013, 09:53:37 AM
Mr. Bennett paid for a translation? I find that hard to believe.
Yet you believe all the tosh from the Mccanns.
Now thast says it all. 8-)(--)
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 28, 2013, 10:41:43 AM
Just the fact to pay for a translation makes people think it is better ! I maintain that Astro's translation of the very short extract sent by Mrs B is perfectly accurate. The unsigned translation, paid (I guess by the fund) and used by the UK Court, remarkably manages to include : 1 omission 1 inaccuracy 1 mistranslation. With Latin Chinagirl would have understood what was mistranslated.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Chinagirl on June 28, 2013, 11:06:56 AM
Spell it out, for goodness sake - spell it out! Stop indulging in pretentious "With Latin Chinagirl would have understood what was mistranslated."
And incidentally, one doesn't have to have knowledge of the foreign language to know when something rendered into one's native language (in this case, English), is poorly translated, or inadequately presented. I have spent the last ten years of my life preparing and polishing academic work in English for PhD candidates, and papers for publication in various scientific journals for Chinese speakers. My ability to speak and read Chinese is nowhere near good enough for direct translation, but my English language skills are high. I spend hours with each Chinese author, and I draft and re-draft and re-draft phrases, sentences and paragraphs until I am sure that I have accurately rendered exactly what it is the writer wanted to convey. I have never had a paper returned for unacceptable language presentation.
It is not a quick or easy task to take something from one language and put it into another so that the MEANING of the original is accurately portrayed.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 28, 2013, 11:20:37 AM
Spell it out, for goodness sake - spell it out! Stop indulging in pretentious "With Latin Chinagirl would have understood what was mistranslated."
And incidentally, one doesn't have to have knowledge of the foreign language to know when something rendered into one's native language (in this case, English), is poorly translated, or inadequately presented. I have spent the last ten years of my life preparing and polishing academic work in English for PhD candidates, and papers for publication in various scientific journals for Chinese speakers. My ability to speak and read Chinese is nowhere near good enough for direct translation, but my English language skills are high. I spend hours with each Chinese author, and I draft and re-draft and re-draft phrases, sentences and paragraphs until I am sure that I have accurately rendered exactly what it is the writer wanted to convey. I have never had a paper returned for unacceptable language presentation.
It is not a quick or easy task to take something from one language and put it into another so that the MEANING of the original is accurately portrayed.
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
It's painfully obvious which translation is the professional one, it's the one that reads like ENGLISH written by an ENGLISH person. The other version is stilted, clumsy & very obviously translated by someone who doesn't have a very extensive vocabulary.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 28, 2013, 01:50:59 PM
How extraordinary the insistence of posters without any knowledge of Portuguese (and/or Latin) to claim categorically, as if they were specialists, that an inaccurate translation (betraying the original text of Magalhães e Menezes) is good just because it is professional. Who did this r...btw ?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on June 28, 2013, 01:52:01 PM
Mrs. B, I don't know who and under which conditions the translations financed by the Fund were done, but all I can tell is that the extract you sent is worse than Astro's translation. Seing only that extract I'll not risk saying it is biased, but I confirm Astro's translation is the only rigorous one. The non-involvement of Madeleine's arguido "person of interest" is missing parents in any criminally the original says "penally"* significant action is apparent this is wrong : seems to result (I admit the PGR is not well at ease and his syntax betrays it) from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports…namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine (missing ?) * For instance, if they concealed their daughter's body, it is not penally relevant, whereas if they'd killed their daughter, that would be "criminal". I just hope that the SY's translations are better than the McCann's ones.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Wouldn't concealing a corpse be a penal offence under PT law?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 28, 2013, 01:53:25 PM
Quite extraordinary for some posters here to think they're the only ones in the universe who speak Latin based languages. Most people in Europe can express themselves quite confidently in at least a few IMO.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: John on June 28, 2013, 01:56:27 PM
How extraordinary the insistence of posters without any knowledge of Portuguese (and/or Latin) to claim categorically, as if they were specialists, that an inaccurate translation (betraying the original text of Magalhães e Menezes) is good just because it is professional. Who did this r...btw ?
Magalhães e Menezes didn't actually write that summary, did he?
Wouldn't it have been written by the DA who signed it? João Melchior Gomes, with the AG's approval?
How extraordinary the insistence of posters without any knowledge of Portuguese (and/or Latin) to claim categorically, as if they were specialists, that an inaccurate translation (betraying the original text of Magalhães e Menezes) is good just because it is professional. Who did this r...btw ?
I have stated this before and I will state it again. It is possible to change the entire meaning if a paragraph by purposely or otherwise misinterpreting a single word when translating Spanish or Portuguese into English.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 28, 2013, 02:51:01 PM
Hence Authorities & Courts don't accept translations unless they are done by accredited translators, who can be held accountable, should it turn out that they have deliberately mislead or mistranslated relevant texts.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 28, 2013, 02:53:50 PM
I have stated this before and I will state it again. It is possible to change the entire meaning if a paragraph by purposely or otherwise misinterpreting a single word when translating Spanish or Portuguese into English.
Take two identical sentences in the same language, changing the place of a virgule is sometimes able to change the meaning.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 28, 2013, 02:57:38 PM
Hence Authorities & Courts don't accept translations unless they are done by accredited translators, who can be held accountable, should it turn out that they have deliberately mislead or mistranslated relevant texts.
Exactly. Deliberately or not, nobody's perfect. But who translated the extract used by the Court against Bennett ?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 28, 2013, 03:02:51 PM
Quite extraordinary for some posters here to think they're the only ones in the universe who speak Latin based languages. Most people in Europe can express themselves quite confidently in at least a few IMO.
Who said so, Mrs B ? Have you got a link ? I'm kidding. You seem to read French, so written Portuguese shouldn't be too mysterious for you. You should understand what is the mistranslation in the extract you sent.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 28, 2013, 03:05:13 PM
My name is not McCann so I don't have a copy of the translated files in their possession, but you'd know that it was an accredited translator, as the document in question was accepted by the High Court in the UK.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 28, 2013, 03:14:51 PM
My name is not McCann so I don't have a copy of the translated files in their possession, but you'd know that it was an accredited translator, as the document in question was accepted by the High Court in the UK.
There is the "McCann" translation (at least it's supposed to exist). Is it an accredited one ? If so that will be likely the one used in "McCann vs Bennett". Let's hope the "SY" translator helped him/herself with the Astro's, Ines' etc. translations.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on June 28, 2013, 04:46:12 PM
There is the "McCann" translation (at least it's supposed to exist). Is it an accredited one ? If so that will be likely the one used in "McCann vs Bennett". Let's hope the "SY" translator helped him/herself with the Astro's, Ines' etc. translations.
Anne, who translated the files from Portuguese to English, for the DVD's, we have?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on June 28, 2013, 05:06:35 PM
I have stated this before and I will state it again. It is possible to change the entire meaning if a paragraph by purposely or otherwise misinterpreting a single word when translating Spanish or Portuguese into English.
How true John.
From Kates' book re her diary:-
I knew only too well from my interviews with the PJ how words and meanings could get lost in translation, and it was obvious this was what had occurred here.
'I was really upset' had become 'I was fed up', 'I never felt that relaxed' became 'I'd never felt so relaxed' and so on. End quote.
''I never felt so relaxed'' is practically the opposite of ''I never felt that relaxed.''
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 28, 2013, 06:15:39 PM
I knew only too well from my interviews with the PJ how words and meanings could get lost in translation, and it was obvious this was what had occurred here.
'I was really upset' had become 'I was fed up', 'I never felt that relaxed' became 'I'd never felt so relaxed' and so on. End quote.
''I never felt so relaxed'' is practically the opposite of ''I never felt that relaxed.''
Why did she sign ?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 08:16:18 PM
Has anyone answered the question as to why SY had to spend time and money to get the files translated when the Mccanns had already done this? to the tune of 100 000 pounds? Was there something wrong with the translators they used? Anyone? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on June 28, 2013, 08:20:00 PM
Has anyone answered the question as to why SY had to spend time and money to get the files translated when the Mccanns had already done this? to the tune of 100 000 pounds? Was there something wrong with the translators they used? Anyone? >@@(*&)
- The Met could have requested a double-checking of the translations that the McCanns had - Presumably other files that the McCanns didn't have would not necessarily have been in English
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 08:29:03 PM
- The Met could have requested a double-checking of the translations that the McCanns had - Presumably other files that the McCanns didn't have would not necessarily have been in English
Why a double checking? Did they think the translators the Mccanns used were below par? re the parts of the files the Mccanns didnt have, true, but no reason to get a different translator for the main parts that they did have
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on June 28, 2013, 09:32:20 PM
Why a double checking? Did they think the translators the Mccanns used were below par? re the parts of the files the Mccanns didnt have, true, but no reason to get a different translator for the main parts that they did have
Whether they did or not, I have no idea, but I would find it plausible that the police would have engaged a service to double-check translations, just in case. That wouldn't mean translating all over again, just double-checking, but it still takes time.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 09:38:46 PM
Whether they did or not, I have no idea, but I would find it plausible that the police would have engaged a service to double-check translations, just in case. That wouldn't mean translating all over again, just double-checking, but it still takes time.
oh right so the police didnt get the files translated as they sid they were doing, but employed translators just to check if the mccanns translators work was ok? Ok carana @)(++(*
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on June 28, 2013, 09:50:36 PM
oh right so the police didnt get the files translated as they sid they were doing, but employed translators just to check if the mccanns translators work was ok? Ok carana @)(++(*
They were bringing together all the files... Yes, there may have been a certain amount of double-checking (if the translations were correct in substance, the task may have been relatively quickly done for their purposes), but also "confidential files" which were not necessarily in English.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 28, 2013, 09:50:47 PM
Rereading costs the same as translating.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 10:05:53 PM
They were bringing together all the files... Yes, there may have been a certain amount of double-checking (if the translations were correct in substance, the task may have been relatively quickly done for their purposes), but also "confidential files" which were not necessarily in English.
Give it up carana sy have said they got the files translated, obviously the mccanns one was below the par for some reason
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on June 28, 2013, 10:10:08 PM
There is the "McCann" translation (at least it's supposed to exist). Is it an accredited one ? If so that will be likely the one used in "McCann vs Bennett". Let's hope the "SY" translator helped him/herself with the Astro's, Ines' etc. translations.
Anne, who translated the files from Portuguese to English, for the DVD's, we have?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: sadie on June 28, 2013, 10:30:56 PM
There is the "McCann" translation (at least it's supposed to exist). Is it an accredited one ? If so that will be likely the one used in "McCann vs Bennett". Let's hope the "SY" translator helped him/herself with the Astro's, Ines' etc. translations.
This is one of the most foolish comments I have read here.
I can confidently state that it is highly unlikely that the UK High Court and the Scotland Yard investigation team have even heard of "Astro," let alone read any of her translations, nor those of any other amateur translator who posted on internet forums. I am amazed - and disturbed - that the intelligent academic Guedes claims to be could suggest that any anonymous amateur translation should be considered "helpful" by any legal authority, whether in the UK or Portugal.
I might add that the intelligent, practical, sophisticated Astro I "knew" and with whom I corresponded fairly extensively in 2007/08 would have had no difficulty in understanding this concept - that none of her or her amateur colleagues' translations would carry any weight with the UK judicial authorities, the police, or the McCanns themselves; that these bodies would need the assurance of accurate, objective translations which can only be obtained from accredited professional translators.
No one here can answer the question of whether or not the McCann's translations were undertaken by accredited translators, nor if these translations were the same as those used by the court in the McCann v Bennett judgment. However, it is a confident assumption that the translations referred to by the High Court were properly accredited.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: John on June 29, 2013, 02:59:24 AM
I would have thought the McCanns sought out the best value for money when it came to translating Portuguese documents into English. Accredited foreign language translation companies are very expensive so are usually best avoided unless of course the documents are required for some judicial process.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Eleanor on June 29, 2013, 08:18:56 AM
Aren't The McCanns supposed to have spent £100,000 getting The Files translated? There was much derision and even outrage about this from the Sceptic Camp because according to them the translations were on line for free. £100,000 sounds fairly professional to me. Or did someone make this up so they could have a pop at The McCanns for wasting Fund money?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 11:08:00 AM
Aren't The McCanns supposed to have spent £100,000 getting The Files translated? There was much derision and even outrage about this from the Sceptic Camp because according to them the translations were on line for free. £100,000 sounds fairly professional to me. Or did someone make this up so they could have a pop at The McCanns for wasting Fund money?
That figure comes from Time's online - I think. Though in many other places it is referred to as 100,000 PAGES, I don't know if there's some type of mix up - but £1 per page seems AWFULLY cheap to me, at least I've never used any professional translator who charged that measly sum for a page.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id237.html
Also, NSY received documents from various sources in various countries, e.g. I think lots came from Spanish Police. Those documents would be needing translating separately. If you are to use documents in any legal circumstances, they'd HAVE to be from an accredited agency or professional.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 29, 2013, 11:11:28 AM
Believe me or not, the very likely accredited translator of the short extract used by the court in McCann vs Bennett altered the original text for some reason. We're speaking here not of style but of conformity between the translation and the original. Some syntax tours aren't easy to understand, even for a Portuguese. They reveal the state of mind of the redactor and shouldn't be bypassed.
I know Astro, I don't share her feeling about the McCann case, but I've no doubt about her honesty. Ines banned me for being pro or not enough anti or whatever, but I've no doubt about her intellectual rigour concerning the files. I wouldn't hesitate to claim to be careful with the translations of the PJ files on the Web, if suggestions of correction had been refused. They were always welcomed, as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes inaccuracies can lead to misunderstanding, especially if reading isn't "benevolent". What DCI mentioned as "a lie of Ines" has now been corrected, as everybody can confirm.
My remark isn't a general opinion about professionally made translations, it is limited to a short extract used by a UK court. I claim it doesn't reproduce what the AG meant. I've no idea why, even professionals aren't perfect.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 11:16:25 AM
This is one of the most foolish comments I have read here.
I can confidently state that it is highly unlikely that the UK High Court and the Scotland Yard investigation team have even heard of "Astro," let alone read any of her translations, nor those of any other amateur translator who posted on internet forums. I am amazed - and disturbed - that the intelligent academic Guedes claims to be could suggest that any anonymous amateur translation should be considered "helpful" by any legal authority, whether in the UK or Portugal.
I might add that the intelligent, practical, sophisticated Astro I "knew" and with whom I corresponded fairly extensively in 2007/08 would have had no difficulty in understanding this concept - that none of her or her amateur colleagues' translations would carry any weight with the UK judicial authorities, the police, or the McCanns themselves; that these bodies would need the assurance of accurate, objective translations which can only be obtained from accredited professional translators.
No one here can answer the question of whether or not the McCann's translations were undertaken by accredited translators, nor if these translations were the same as those used by the court in the McCann v Bennett judgment. However, it is a confident assumption that the translations referred to by the High Court were properly accredited.
Totally agree.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 29, 2013, 11:30:38 AM
I would have thought the McCanns sought out the best value for money when it came to translating Portuguese documents into English. Accredited foreign language translation companies are very expensive so are usually best avoided unless of course the documents are required for some judicial process.
I would have thought also the McCanns sought out the best value for money when it came to PI. But they weren't well advised, isn't it ?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Eleanor on June 29, 2013, 11:55:47 AM
I wouldn't trust the translations of Ines or Astro. They have both "Poorly" translated against The McCanns at more than one point.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on June 29, 2013, 02:35:27 PM
That figure comes from Time's online - I think. Though in many other places it is referred to as 100,000 PAGES, I don't know if there's some type of mix up - but £1 per page seems AWFULLY cheap to me, at least I've never used any professional translator who charged that measly sum for a page.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id237.html
Also, NSY received documents from various sources in various countries, e.g. I think lots came from Spanish Police. Those documents would be needing translating separately. If you are to use documents in any legal circumstances, they'd HAVE to be from an accredited agency or professional.
The figure of 100k is correct, according to Kate Mccann who said so in their documentary. The number of pages is 30 or 40,000 not 100,000.
3.40
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 02:41:51 PM
I think the 100,000 pages refers to the Operation Grange documents, not the PJ files.
Scotland Yard launched a shadow investigation called Operation Grange to examine more than 100,000 pages of investigative documents.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2013, 07:14:59 PM
Quote from: AnneGuedes on June 26, 2013, 11:24:48 PM
Mrs. B, I don't know who and under which conditions the translations financed by the Fund were done, but all I can tell is that the extract you sent is worse than Astro's translation. Seing only that extract I'll not risk saying it is biased, but I confirm Astro's translation is the only rigorous one. The non-involvement of Madeleine's arguido "person of interest" is missing parents in any criminally the original says "penally"* significant action is apparent this is wrong : seems to result (I admit the PGR is not well at ease and his syntax betrays it) from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports…namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine (missing ?) * For instance, if they concealed their daughter's body, it is not penally relevant, whereas if they'd killed their daughter, that would be "criminal". I just hope that the SY's translations are better than the McCann's ones.
Why wouldn't concealing a corpse not be relevant in terms of the penal code?
Page 128 cr2_128
Section 254
Profaning a corpse or a burial ground
1. Whoever :
a) without the entitled person's consent, removes, destroys or conceals a corpse or part of it, or the ashes of a deceased person ;
shall be punished with imprisonment up to 2 years or with a Fine, up to 240 days.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 07:21:45 PM
8((()*/
Thanks Carana, that is what we have been saying all along. Hiding or destroying a corpse is a criminal offence in Portugal. I.e. "criminally significant".
ETA Which is probably why the offence is listed under the PORTUGUESE CRIMINAL CODE
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: John on June 29, 2013, 07:29:02 PM
Redblossom. You have a remarkable ability go find comments within videos, do you keep an index if some sort?
PS Kate said 30,000 files costing some £100,000 to translate.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Eleanor on June 29, 2013, 07:46:02 PM
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Chinagirl on June 30, 2013, 07:45:13 AM
Guedes: There's a mistranslation in the second, and this is serious since the translation was used by the court that judged Mr Bennett.
The unsigned translation, paid (I guess by the fund) and used by the UK Court, remarkably manages to include : 1 omission 1 inaccuracy 1 mistranslation
As requested, please detail the omission, inaccuracy, and in particular, the mistranslation that is so serious it affects the Bennett judgment. This is the paragraph in question:
The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports…
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 30, 2013, 11:58:50 AM
I explained already and I'm not treating you "girl" etc. And I never said the biased translation had effect on McCann vs Bennett on which I know nothing.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on June 30, 2013, 12:22:13 PM
I explained already and I'm not treating you "girl" etc. And I never said the biased translation had effect on McCann vs Bennett on which I know nothing.
This translation issue is basically a question of confidence. Mrs B believes the Fund paid translation of the final report is better than Astro's. Why ? She doesn't know Portuguese. Ah, those who did it are "professionals" (not identified). I compared the two translation : Astro's and the paid one. There's a mistranslation in the second, and this is serious since the translation was used by the court that judged Mr Bennett.I beg from now on that whoever cites a translation made by Astro, Ines, or any other to be aware he/she uses the work of someone who generously did it to inform and to indicate the name of the translator. Please.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 30, 2013, 02:48:58 PM
This anecdote shows a UK Court, when an official foreign document is produced by the accusation in a "professional translation", should have it double checked (it might be a right of the defence, but were they prepared to spend money on this ?). It is yet possible that the translation was ordered by the Court. If one knows, I'd welcome information. I don't think this particular short extract affected Mr Bennett's position, I think it rather likely comforted Mr and Mrs McCann's one. But what about the rest of the translation ? Far to suspect UK justice to be corrupted, as John suggested yesterday, I think it happens translators make mistakes. Me too !
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on June 30, 2013, 03:02:44 PM
This anecdote shows a UK Court, when an official foreign document is produced by the accusation in a "professional translation", should have it double checked (it might be a right of the defence, but were they prepared to spend money on this ?). It is yet possible that the translation was ordered by the Court. If one knows, I'd welcome information. I don't think this particular short extract affected Mr Bennett's position, I think it rather likely comforted Mr and Mrs McCann's one. But what about the rest of the translation ? Far to suspect UK justice to be corrupted, as John suggested yesterday, I think it happens translators make mistakes. Me too !
So why was it so serious, for you to say?
"this is serious since the translation was used by the court that judged Mr Bennett".
Now you say, "McCann vs Bennett on which I know nothing". You can't have it both ways!
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Eleanor on June 30, 2013, 03:10:39 PM
It really isn't important. Bennett's Trial had nothing to do with anything that happened in Portugal.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on June 30, 2013, 03:13:52 PM
It really isn't important. Bennett's Trial had nothing to do with anything that happened in Portugal.
I know that, Eleanor. But Anne, seems to think it is, and does 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 30, 2013, 04:36:28 PM
DCI, I said I would never reply to you and you know why. However I can't but feel concerned by your overburdening your mind with useless suspicions. It is certainly not the first occurrence of use in Court of a translation that isn't totally consistent with the original. I think it's a serious issue in itself, generally speaking ! I'm not interested in examining whether it influenced the verdict or not in the particular minor McCann vs Bennett case ! I think Mr Bennett did the McCanns a favour making them appear like victims of a fool !
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on June 30, 2013, 04:38:41 PM
DCI, I said I would never reply to you and you know why. However I can't but feel concerned by your overburdening your mind with useless suspicions. It is certainly not the first occurrence of use in Court of a translation that isn't totally consistent with the original. I think it's a serious issue in itself, generally speaking ! I'm not interested in examining whether it influenced the verdict or not in the particular minor McCann vs Bennett case ! I think Mr Bennett did the McCanns a favour making them appear like victims of a fool !
When did you say you would never reply to me, Anne?. No I don't know why, perhaps you can enlighten me, and everyone else!
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on July 01, 2013, 10:38:35 PM
Why was CATRIONA SISILE BAKER'S, statement altered?
I was interviewed on DVD, by DC GIERC of the Leicestershire Police between 10h09 and 10h54 on Monday, 14th of April of 2008 in the Leicestershire police headquarters. I can affirm that my statement on DVD is truthful and in accord with my understanding.
Between 11h57 and 12h12 of the same day I was again interviewed on DVD by DC GIERC. During this interview I was permitted to refresh my memory after reading my translated original statement made to the Portuguese police. There are two facts that I would like to clarify: "dining out service" which is mentioned is available for the adults, being that the children would be left under the care of a childcare worker during dinner. My original deposition also mentioned that Madeleine offered more attention to the boys in the club. I do not remember having made such an affirmation given that Madeleine passed the majority of time playing with Jane Tanner's daughter. I confirm that the deposition in this second DVD is truthful and in accord with my knowledge and that it will be registered.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on July 02, 2013, 12:39:06 PM
My original deposition also mentioned that Madeleine offered more attention to the boys in the club. I do not remember having made such an affirmation given that Madeleine passed the majority of time playing with Jane Tanner's daughter
*** before you go off again accusing the police of doctoring statements, (and why would they bother for such an inconsequential thing) can you show where is the original statement mentioning this? Certainly not the one in the files. And who translated her original deposition to include the mention of boys. Could it have been a mistranslation? of this part** Genders and relationships in some foreign languages are easily mixed up, in some, the same word means child in general, also a male child or boy >@@(*&)
**
Concerning the little girl, she states that she was a quite active and sociable child, who nevertheless paid most of her attention to the children of her own group (Lobster Team).
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Eleanor on July 02, 2013, 01:15:29 PM
Does who Madeleine played with have any bearing on this case? Beyond someone altering a statement for some inexplicable reason.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 02, 2013, 01:16:00 PM
Masculine plural is generic. But, considering the global sentence, it seems in this case CB was meaning "boys". A line is missing. Madeleine was reluctant to be in this group, the first day...
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on July 02, 2013, 01:26:43 PM
Masculine plural is generic. But, considering the global sentence, it seems in this case CB was meaning "boys". A line is missing. Madeleine was reluctant to be in this group, the first day...
Thanks Anne. Do you mean in lines 52/53 it could be read as boys?
I dont know about the missing words/line, but I dont think its related.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Eleanor on July 02, 2013, 01:42:40 PM
Sheesh. The suspect translations don't even get the gender right. Any accredited translator would. That is part of the effort involved.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on July 02, 2013, 01:46:06 PM
Sheesh. The suspect translations don't even get the gender right. Any accredited translator would. That is part of the effort involved.
So who is the suspect translator here? The files were not released until 4 months after the time of the rogatory interviews! So impossible the mccannpjfiles translations were used. So who did the British or even PT police use? A non accredited translator? Edited
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 02, 2013, 01:48:21 PM
Thanks Anne. Do you mean in lines 52/53 it could be read as boys?
I dont know about the missing words/line, but I dont think its related.
Boys, yes. I think if CB had said "children", the interpret would have translated "crianças". She might have feared this would be wrongly understood as having a sexual connotation. Some little girls prefer the company of boys simply because they like activities traditionally "boyish". Some boys like dolls without revealing this way sexual ambiguity !
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on July 02, 2013, 01:49:56 PM
3. The person who typed up the statements got it wrong
4. Or, as you say, it was altered for some inexplicable reason
Which ever way you look at it, Cats statement was altered, between her making it, and it being filed.
Red, I don't have a problem, but Cat Baker did, and for good reason IMO!
How many more are there, that have been altered?
You need to understand there is a difference between a mistake and alteration. And Nowhere in the volunteer translators text of Cat Bakers statement is the mention of the word boys. So who are you accusing of altering peoples statements.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on July 02, 2013, 01:54:39 PM
Boys, yes. I think if CB had said "children", the interpret would have translated "crianças". She might have feared this would be wrongly understood as having a sexual connotation. Some little girls prefer the company of boys simply because they like activities traditionally "boyish". Some boys like dolls without revealing this way sexual ambiguity !
Ok thanks Anne. 8((()*/
So that means someone did translate it as such, but none of the people we know, they interpreted it as children. just think if the statements and interpretations were all taped, how different it would all be.
Catch you later.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Eleanor on July 02, 2013, 02:05:16 PM
So who is the suspect translator here? The files were not released until 4 months after the time of the rogatory interviews! So impossible the mccannpjfiles translations were used. So who did the British or even PT police use? A non accredited translator? Edited
This post does not make sense.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on July 02, 2013, 02:13:07 PM
Quote
So who did the British or even PT police use? A non accredited translator? Edited
I've asked the same question, but no answer was forthcoming.
Whoever made the DVD's, I presume would have had the translations done. After all there are English translations included in these DVD files.
So who made the DVD's for the files?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on July 02, 2013, 02:56:07 PM
1) Catriona Baker was interviewed in the Uk by British Police in April 2008 long before the files were released and which were subsequently translated by volunteers (which are out of the equation here)
2) In that interview she said she did not recall, when shown her initial statement from 6th May 2007 made to the PJ, that she had ever mentioned Madeleine playing with the boys more
3) Presumably she did not read Portuguese, so she must have been shown a translation of her original statement or have been read out a translation of it, it doesnt matter which one
4) Who translated her original statement kept in Portuguese by the PT police into English? At the time of her rogatory interview, for it to be shown her to see if she was happy with it or wanted to add or change anything? Do you know? Who is the person responsible for making her think she had said *boys* and ergo who is the rubbish translator you and dci are accusing of (deliberately) altering meanings
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Eleanor on July 02, 2013, 02:58:50 PM
I've asked the same question, but no answer was forthcoming.
Whoever made the DVD's, I presume would have had the translations done. After all there are English translations included in these DVD files.
So who made the DVD's for the files?
As far as I understand, The DVDs were released by The Portuguese, but exactly what was translated from English into Portuguese is debatable. The DVDs appear to have been released in Portuguese because there was such a rush to translate them. And we do know that this was done by amateurs.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on July 02, 2013, 03:03:23 PM
I've asked the same question, but no answer was forthcoming.
Whoever made the DVD's, I presume would have had the translations done. After all there are English translations included in these DVD files.
So who made the DVD's for the files?
Are you saying the PJ who released the DVD also had everything in it translated into English? I dont think so somehow @)(++(*
The translations we have from the PT documents in the DVD on the mccannpjfiles and elsewhere have all been done by internet volunteers. These would not have been used by either the PT police or the UK police when conducting the rogatory interviews or anything else. Both would also have used accredited translators.
PS which parts of the DVD had been translated into English by the releasing authorities? I think you are a bit confused about some things, catch you later
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on July 02, 2013, 03:08:16 PM
So that means someone did translate it as such, but none of the people we know, they interpreted it as children. just think if the statements and interpretations were all taped, how different it would all be.
Catch you later.
I'd mentioned the same thought some time earlier, either in general or on a different topic.
I very much agree with you. Between the witness, the interpreter and the police officer who were all trying to understand each other in stressed circumstances, I don't find it suprising that glitches crept in.
And the same thing would happen in similar circumstances in other parts of the world.
Some people think that the initial statements are the most likely to be correct. They might be in ideal circumstances, but these weren't ideal circumstances.
- The witnesses were in a state of shock. - The interpreters didn't have much - if any - background information on which to base what they were listening to. - The police officer taking the statement wouldn't have understood that much at that stage, either.
Recorded interviews would have made it so much easier for everyone.
I do hope that the PT plan to record arguido interviews goes ahead - but also for witness statements.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mrs. B on July 02, 2013, 03:15:33 PM
Some parts of the information on the DVD were translated by the PJ as it was addressed to UK authorities. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_66.jpg
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on July 02, 2013, 03:42:40 PM
1) Catriona Baker was interviewed in the Uk by British Police in April 2008 long before the files were released and which were subsequently translated by volunteers (which are out of the equation here)
Exactly! So how did they get Catriona Baker's original statement, in English, from the PJ
2) In that interview she said she did not recall, when shown her initial statement from 6th May 2007 made to the PJ, that she had ever mentioned Madeleine playing with the boys more
3) Presumably she did not read Portuguese, so she must have been shown a translation of her original statement or have been read out a translation of it, it doesnt matter which one
During this interview I was permitted to refresh my memory after reading my translated original statement made to the Portuguese police.
4) Who translated her original statement kept in Portuguese by the PT police into English? At the time of her rogatory interview, for it to be shown her to see if she was happy with it or wanted to add or change anything? Do you know? Who is the person responsible for making her think she had said *boys* and ergo who is the rubbish translator you and dci are accusing of (deliberately) altering meanings
During this interview I was permitted to refresh my memory after reading my translated original statement made to the Portuguese police. Whoever put "boys" in her statement, is responsible for it.
But they are responsible for (deliberately) altering meanings. Wonder why that is?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on July 02, 2013, 04:05:46 PM
The distinctions between criança(s) and meninos/meninas don't seem to be clear.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 02, 2013, 04:16:09 PM
"criança" is technical, if someone treats you as "criança" and you're an adult, it's not flattering at all. "menino/a" has affective connotations, if someone treats you as "menina/o", it's loving and caring, whatever your age. The interpret would have translated either "crianças" or "meninos e meninas" if what CB meant was "children".
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on July 02, 2013, 04:49:02 PM
"criança" is technical, if someone treats you as "criança" and you're an adult, it's not flattering at all. "menino/a" has affective connotations, if someone treats you as "menina/o", it's loving and caring, whatever your age. The interpret would have translated either "crianças" or "meninos e meninas" if what CB meant was "children".
Ok.
I think that you meant to say interpreter.
But this was a context of a nanny talking about young children.
So where did "aos meninos" come into the subject matter of the statement as meaning "boys"?
Could this have been a misunderstanding?
The PT original does refer to her as "uma criança", but also later as a "menina", but the statement also refers to "aos meninos".
Was she seriously into the company of boys at just under four years of age as opposed to that of the other little girl?
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 02, 2013, 05:37:08 PM
menino(a) refers to sex. criança, feminine gender, refers to age. "criança" is never translated "boy" or "girl" but "child". CB said "little boys" > rightly translated "meninos" > back to English "boys" (PJ) or "children" (Ines). If she said "children" > "crianças", no alternative > back to English "children", no alternative. If nevertheless you consider CB meant that Madeleine, though "active and sociable", "paid more attention to the children of her group" than ? to the children of other groups ?, then don't forget that the other children were babies (between 4 and 12 months).
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on July 03, 2013, 02:07:59 AM
But they are responsible for (deliberately) altering meanings. Wonder why that is?
Who? Do you actually know? who translated cat bakers statement from portuguese to english, for her to read? I doubt it, if you do please tell and put this boring business to bed 8((()*/
Once you show the proof who translated it then you can accuse them of doctoring, thats if it WAS doctored and not whatshe, cat, originally said of course, but which also begs the question what bloody difference did it make anyway, i suggest you stop making mountains out of molehills
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on July 03, 2013, 10:55:34 AM
menino(a) refers to sex. criança, feminine gender, refers to age. "criança" is never translated "boy" or "girl" but "child". CB said "little boys" > rightly translated "meninos" > back to English "boys" (PJ) or "children" (Ines). If she said "children" > "crianças", no alternative > back to English "children", no alternative. If nevertheless you consider CB meant that Madeleine, though "active and sociable", "paid more attention to the children of her group" than ? to the children of other groups ?, then don't forget that the other children were babies (between 4 and 12 months).
I find the original somewhat ambiguous. I'm wondering if there wasn't a mix-up when the officer typed it up: line 55 is missing, so something seems to have gone wrong. I'm not really surprised that the translators were scratching their heads.
The intended contrast might not have been about children in any other group, nor about more attention paid to boys as opposed to girls, simply that although she was quiet on the first day, she was fairly active and sociable, and got on well with the other kids in her group.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on July 03, 2013, 12:34:41 PM
[quote off topic removed]
This thread is about translation issues.
All I was trying to point out is that confusion is possible between witnesses, "interpreters", the PJ officer trying to understand... and various other translators trying to make sense of what appears on paper to render the original back into English.
Recorded interviews would seem - to me - to be the way forward.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Redblossom on July 03, 2013, 08:33:27 PM
Did you figure out yet who doctored cat bakers statement in the translation from portuguese to english? judging from your ignoring my previous post, I guess not, so I gather you are not accusing anyone anymore, good job
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: DCI on July 03, 2013, 08:40:33 PM
Did you figure out yet who doctored cat bakers statement in the translation from portuguese to english? judging from your ignoring my previous post, I guess not, so I gather you are not accusing anyone anymore, good job
No, did you. And they were doctored, no matter how hard you try and turn it round! As you are on ignore, I only see your replies to others, most of the time. Just looked to see, if you had anything to add to the thread.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Benice on June 14, 2014, 12:17:11 PM
Total hogwash but then again I'm not in the least surprised. For the benefit of Dave, the archiving report is a statement of fact, not an opinion. As for being cleared hmm let's see, cleared of what??
Just watch it all change when a kiddies skeletal remains are found in downtown Luz!
So would you evaluate the following as a statement of fact?
Quote:
The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports.
None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later; there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police, the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless. End Quote
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 14, 2014, 12:47:44 PM
So would you evaluate the following as a statement of fact?
Quote:
The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports.
None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later; there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police, the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless. End Quote
We were discussing the Portuguese archiving report Benice, why are you quoting from Lord Justice Tugendhat? As an aside, Tugendhat erred in making that pronouncement since nobody knows when Madeleine 'disappeared' except the perp if there is one.
Back on topic, there can be no doubt that decades of dictatorship moulded the police in Portugal into what we have today. A far cry from what we in the home counties are used to.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2014, 12:58:50 PM
We were discussing the Portuguese archiving report Benice, why are you quoting from Lord Justice Tugendhat? As an aside, Tugendhat erred in making that pronouncement since nobody knows when Madeleine 'disappeared' except the perp if there is one.
Back on topic, there can be no doubt that decades of dictatorship moulded the police in Portugal into what we have today. A far cry from what we in the home counties are used to.
that is the archiving report....
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 14, 2014, 02:16:20 PM
So would you evaluate the following as a statement of fact?
Quote:
The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports.
End Quote
A convenient version of it in English and from what I can see is not a true reflection of the original Portuguese decision.
This is a more accurate translation.
"The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine."
Anyone with the most basic grasp of the English language will see at a glance that the term "seems to result from" is not the same as "is apparent".
www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html#adi9
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 14, 2014, 02:24:06 PM
So would you evaluate the following as a statement of fact?
Quote:
None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later; there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police, the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless. End Quote
Also, the second paragraph should translate as.
"To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media - before the police - was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous."
It looks to me that words have been left out in Benice's version above??
Two translations of the same document on two different websites and both apparently by Astro yet offering two different interpretations. That for me is a concern.
www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html#adi9
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Admin on June 14, 2014, 02:53:35 PM
" To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media - before the police - was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous."
It looks to me that words have been left out in Benice's version above??
Two translations of the same document on two different websites and both apparently by Astro yet offering two different interpretations. That for me is a concern.
www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html#adi9
I have relocated this discussion due to its significance within the translations debate.
Your observation is duly noted in that the phrases "is apparent" and "seems to result from" do not represent the same understanding of the original document.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Benice on June 14, 2014, 03:14:18 PM
We were discussing the Portuguese archiving report Benice, why are you quoting from Lord Justice Tugendhat? As an aside, Tugendhat erred in making that pronouncement since nobody knows when Madeleine 'disappeared' except the perp if there is one.
Back on topic, there can be no doubt that decades of dictatorship moulded the police in Portugal into what we have today. A far cry from what we in the home counties are used to.
As it came from Judge Tug - I think it is reasonable to assume that it was provided by the McCann's lawyers and is therefore an extract from the professionally translated files and is not a translation by an amateur on the internet.
I know which one I would consider to be accurate.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2014, 03:59:31 PM
"To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media - before the police - was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous."
It looks to me that words have been left out in Benice's version above??
Two translations of the same document on two different websites and both apparently by Astro yet offering two different interpretations. That for me is a concern.
www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html#adi9
the one you have posted reads more like a google translation...perhaps that explains the difference
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: John on June 14, 2014, 04:03:59 PM
My own experience of Spanish and Portuguese tells me that the CPS cannot be depended upon to correctly translate foreign documents into English and Courts are being misled in this area. If you need something important translated do it yourself.
Here is the actual extract from the Portuguese Archiving Report.
"O não envolvimento dos arguidos pais da Madeleine em qualquer actuação penalmente relevante parece resultar das circunstâncias objectivas de não estarem no apartamento aquado do seu desaparecimento, no seu comportamento normal adoptado até esse desaparecimento e posteriormente como, amplamente decorre do depoimento das testemunhas, das análise das comunicações telefónicas e também das conclusões das perícias, principalmente dos Relatórios do FSS e do Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal."
which correctly translates as...
The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared, the normal behavior adopted by this disappearance and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.
To put this into common English, it is plain to see that the Prosecutors who signed off the Report were making the point that the McCanns did not appear to be involved because of various factors. The first translation where it was stated that their non-involvement was apparent due to those same circumstances is simply wrong.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2014, 04:11:48 PM
My own experience of Spanish and Portuguese tells me that the CPS cannot be depended upon to correctly translate foreign documents into English and Courts are being misled in this area. If you need something important translated do it yourself.
Here is the actual extract from the Portuguese Archiving Report.
"O não envolvimento dos arguidos pais da Madeleine em qualquer actuação penalmente relevante parece resultar das circunstâncias objectivas de não estarem no apartamento aquado do seu desaparecimento, no seu comportamento normal adoptado até esse desaparecimento e posteriormente como, amplamente decorre do depoimento das testemunhas, das análise das comunicações telefónicas e também das conclusões das perícias, principalmente dos Relatórios do FSS e do Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal."
which correctly translates as...
The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared, the normal behavior adopted by this disappearance and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.
To put this into common English, it is plain to see that the Prosecutors who signed off the Report were making the point that the McCanns did not appear to be involved because of various elements which he stated.
So what does that say for the accuracy of the mccanns statements which were translated
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 14, 2014, 04:44:13 PM
As it came from Judge Tug - I think it is reasonable to assume that it was provided by the McCann's lawyers and is therefore an extract from the professionally translated files and is not a translation by an amateur on the internet.
I know which one I would consider to be accurate.
Of course you do. 8)--))
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: John on June 14, 2014, 06:04:11 PM
So would you evaluate the following as a statement of fact?
Quote:
The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports.
None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later; there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police, the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless. End Quote
The translation, "The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent.." is a corruption of the actual Report.
What it should have been translated as is, "The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant act appears..."
The operative word is 'parece' which translates as 'it appears' or 'seems'. The use of the words 'is apparent' which translates as é aparente in Portuguese is wrong in the context of the Archiving Report. If an English Court made a decision based on that corrupted translation then that decision is open to challenge too.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2014, 06:07:45 PM
The translation, "The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent.." is a corruption of the actual Report.
What it should have been translated as is, "The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant act appears..."
The operative word is 'parece' which translates as 'it appears' or 'seems'. The use of the words 'is apparent' which translates as é aparente in Portuguese is wrong.
they have been declared not suspects by SY...thats the most important thing...you can argue over insignificant petty details as long as you like
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 14, 2014, 06:10:14 PM
they have been declared not suspects by SY...thats the most important thing...you can argue over insignificant petty details as long as you like
It is hardly insignificant when people have been referring to this paragraph since the Report came out and holding it up as some sort of vindication. The prosecutors were stating the facts, there were not offering an opinion.
To answer your earlier question about the overall competence of the translated files, I would say that there is a very good chance that similar one word corruptions exist which can change the meaning of the entire paragraph if not the document itself.
If you look at the offending translation it is obvious that much of the paragraph simply is not what was written in the original document. For example, the last part of the first paragraph was translated as "...and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports." which should in fact have been correctly translated as, ...and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.". Shit poor translating imo.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Carana on June 14, 2014, 06:26:01 PM
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: John on June 14, 2014, 06:30:23 PM
The offending paragraph can be found at the bottom of 4644 and the top of 4645.
Here is the actual extract from the Portuguese Archiving Report.
"O não envolvimento dos arguidos pais da Madeleine em qualquer actuação penalmente relevante parece resultar das circunstâncias objectivas de não estarem no apartamento aquado do seu desaparecimento, no seu comportamento normal adoptado até esse desaparecimento e posteriormente como, amplamente decorre do depoimento das testemunhas, das análise das comunicações telefónicas e também das conclusões das perícias, principalmente dos Relatórios do FSS e do Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal."
which correctly translates as...
The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared, the normal behavior adopted by this disappearance and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.
The offending paragraph can be found at the bottom of 4644 and the top of 4645.
Here is the actual extract from the Portuguese Archiving Report.
"O não envolvimento dos arguidos pais da Madeleine em qualquer actuação penalmente relevante parece resultar das circunstâncias objectivas de não estarem no apartamento aquado do seu desaparecimento, no seu comportamento normal adoptado até esse desaparecimento e posteriormente como, amplamente decorre do depoimento das testemunhas, das análise das comunicações telefónicas e também das conclusões das perícias, principalmente dos Relatórios do FSS e do Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal."
which correctly translates as...
The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared, the normal behavior adopted by this disappearance and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.
1. clearly visible or understood; obvious. "for no apparent reason she laughed" synonyms: evident, plain, obvious, clear, manifest, visible, discernible, perceptible, perceivable, noticeable, detectable, recognizable, observable; More unmistakable, crystal clear, as clear as crystal, transparent, palpable, patent, distinct, pronounced, marked, striking, conspicuous, overt, blatant, as plain as a pikestaff, staring someone in the face, writ large, written all over someone, as plain as day, beyond (a) doubt, beyond question, self-evident, indisputable; informalas plain as the nose on one's face, standing/sticking out like a sore thumb, standing/sticking out a mile "their relief was all too apparent" antonyms: unclear, obscure 2. seeming real or true, but not necessarily so. "his apparent lack of concern" synonyms: seeming, ostensible, outward, superficial, surface, supposed, presumed, so-called, alleged, professed, avowed, declared, claimed, purported, pretended, feigned; More
It may not always be obvious which meaning to choose. However, two paragraphs add context to which one is intended. "In addition..."
To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media before the polices was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous.
Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child's death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 14, 2014, 07:32:59 PM
The offending paragraph can be found at the bottom of 4644 and the top of 4645.
Here is the actual extract from the Portuguese Archiving Report.
"O não envolvimento dos arguidos pais da Madeleine em qualquer actuação penalmente relevante parece resultar das circunstâncias objectivas de não estarem no apartamento aquado do seu desaparecimento, no seu comportamento normal adoptado até esse desaparecimento e posteriormente como, amplamente decorre do depoimento das testemunhas, das análise das comunicações telefónicas e também das conclusões das perícias, principalmente dos Relatórios do FSS e do Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal."
which correctly translates as...
The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared, the normal behavior adopted by this disappearance and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.
"The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared..." I'm sorry, but that just isn't very good English.
Title: Re: Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2014, 08:44:53 PM
The offending paragraph can be found at the bottom of 4644 and the top of 4645.
Here is the actual extract from the Portuguese Archiving Report.
"O não envolvimento dos arguidos pais da Madeleine em qualquer actuação penalmente relevante parece resultar das circunstâncias objectivas de não estarem no apartamento aquado do seu desaparecimento, no seu comportamento normal adoptado até esse desaparecimento e posteriormente como, amplamente decorre do depoimento das testemunhas, das análise das comunicações telefónicas e também das conclusões das perícias, principalmente dos Relatórios do FSS e do Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal."
which correctly translates as...
The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared, the normal behavior adopted by this disappearance and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.
Have we actually got anywhere with this? Will we ever?
The Internet Translations are definitely not to be trusted.
In fact that is not the case. Portuguese does not translate exactly to English and vice versa, the very best we can hope for is a word for word translation and that is where automated translators like Google and Bing come into their own. Human translators add words and meanings to sentences which might not actually exist whereas an automated translator will not.
I purposely translated the paragraph on a word for word basis which clearly indicated the use of the Portuguese word 'parece' which translates as 'it appears' or 'seems'. The words 'is apparent' which translate as 'é aparente' in Portuguese does not appear in the original text and has been wrongly inserted by the translator.
The paragraph does not therefore state that the non-involvement of Madeline's parents is apparent but clearly does state that the non-involvement appears on the basis of...
Again, the Portuguese prosecutors who wrote the Report indicated that there were several reasons why Madeleine's parents could be excluded as suspects, they did not state that they were excluded. A subtle but very important difference apparently not spotted by the original translator.