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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Mr Moderator on March 16, 2014, 04:39:35 PM
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Why was PC Grime and the specialist dogs deployed to Praia da Luz?
When the Portuguese police (GNR) first arrived on the scene in Praia da Luz they immediately arranged for the deployment of their air scenting or Search and Rescue (SAR) dogs in an attempt to find Madeleine. These SAR dogs must not however be confused with the specialist dogs later brought to the scene by Leicestershire Constabulary (LC). LC at the time was headed by Chief Constable Matt Baggott, now Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI).
The basics first.
The two specialist dogs taken by PC Martin Grime of LC to Praia da Luz were male dog Eddie, referred to as an EVRD, an Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog and bitch Keela, referred to as a CSI, a Crime Scene Investigation dog. In his profile (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm) provided to the Portuguese authorities prior to the dogs deployment, Grime states that Eddie will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The dog will alert to the presence of 'dead body' scent whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site. He also states that Keela will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement. She will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for minute human blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles.
Given the deployment of these two specialist dogs in such circumstances it can only be assumed that they were looking for human remains or at the very least, the scent from a cadaver or human body.
The question is why?
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The Blame Game.
Who decided that the dogs should be deployed? Who decided that the investigation should migrate from one of searching for a missing child and her abductor(s) to one of searching for signs that the child died whether by accident or by foul deed?
If one considers for a moment that Madeleine died in apartment 5a of the Ocean Club Garden complex one can only do so in the context that her parents had some involvement which they have hitherto not admitted.
Such a change of emphasis could not have taken place unless Leicestershire Constabulary were in agreement with their counterparts in Portugal, the Policia Judicial (PJ). Much has been written claiming that the British police or LC did not consider the McCanns to be suspects but this flies in the face of the facts. For these specialist dogs to be sent to PdL required a common understanding between the two police forces.
Was LC in every way just as much to blame as the PJ in suspecting the McCanns of involvement in their daughters disappearance and how far up the line of command did this go?
Why should former PJ coordinator Dr Amaral and the PJ take all the blame when the British police and LC in particular were also involved?
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The Blame Game.
Who decided that the dogs should be deployed? Who decided that the investigation should migrate from one of searching for a missing child and her abductor(s) to one of searching for signs that the child died whether by accident or by foul deed?
If one considers for a moment that Madeleine died in apartment 5a of the Ocean Club Garden complex one can only do so in the context that her parents had some involvement which they have hitherto not admitted.
Such a change of emphasis could not have taken place unless Leicestershire Constabulary were in agreement with their counterparts in Portugal, the Policia Judicial (PJ). Much has been written claiming that the British police or LC did not consider the McCanns to be suspects but this flies in the face of the facts. For these specialist dogs to be sent to PdL required a common understanding between the two police forces.
Was LC in every way just as much to blame as the PJ in suspecting the McCanns of involvement in their daughters disappearance and how far up the line of command did this go?
Why should former PJ coordinator Dr Amaral and the PJ take all the blame when the British police and LC in particular were also involved?
How many times does it have to be said that it is normal police practice to make the parents of any child who has disappeared suspects...nothing unusual...however...when no evidence is found the parents should no longer be treated as suspects...SY seem to understand this
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How many times does it have to be said that it is normal police practice to make the parents of any child who has disappeared suspects...nothing unusual...however...when no evidence is found the parents should no longer be treated as suspects...SY seem to understand this
But isn't that the whole point, evidence was found in the car and the apartment that all might not be as it appears?
To answer the question posed by the OP however, I would concur that Grime was sent because Leicestershire Constabulary whose officers were on the ground in PdL were in total agreement with the PJ. They were involved at the highest level in the decision making and attended the meetings where the disappearance and the McCanns were discussed.
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Why didn't they go over in mid-May 2007?
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The recommendation to bring in the UK dogs was made on 23 July 2007 by a UK expert working for the NPIA
(National Policing Improvement Agency)
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html
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The recommendation to bring in the UK dogs was made on 23 July 2007 by a UK expert working for the NPIA
(National Policing Improvement Agency)
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html
Wouldn't it have been more useful to bring them in in mid-May, once the GNR S&R had given up?
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Wouldn't it have been more useful to bring them in in mid-May, once the GNR S&R had given up?
It was Guilihermino Encarnacao who directly requested the NPIA to do that reconnaisance and make recommendations.
Presumably GE requested it in July rather than mid-May because the UK did not offer NPIA expertise until July?
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It was Guilihermino Encarnacao who directly requested the NPIA to do that reconnaisance and make recommendations.
Presumably GE requested it in July rather than mid-May because the UK did not offer NPIA expertise until July?
Why wouldn't they have done?
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Why wouldn't they have done?
I don't know when the UK police in PDL first offered to the PJ the services of the NPIA.
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I don't know when the UK police in PDL first offered to the PJ the services of the NPIA.
Does it matter? Clearly the consensus on here is that their findings were rubbish @)(++(*
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I don't know when the UK police in PDL first offered to the PJ the services of the NPIA.
I haven't found anything in the files either way. However, it would seem normal to get VRDs in once the S&Rs have given up. What was the issue at the time? Financial? Mistrust? The PJ could have asked other countries with VRDs back in May. Why wait until late July/August?
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Does it matter? Clearly the consensus on here is that their findings were rubbish @)(++(*
I haven't seen anyone here claiming the National Police Improvement Agency's recommendations were rubbish.
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I haven't seen anyone here claiming the National Police Improvement Agency's recommendations were rubbish.
The dogs, sweetie, the dogs.
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The dogs, sweetie, the dogs.
It was the NPIA (from the UK) who recommended the UK dogs should be flown in and it was the NPIA who drew up the initial list of locations for those UK dogs to examine.
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It was the NPIA (from the UK) who recommended the UK dogs should be flown in and it was the NPIA who drew up the initial list of locations for those UK dogs to examine.
And in spite of all this the dogs' findings are persistently rubbished by posters on here. What do they fear?
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And in spite of all this the dogs' findings are persistently rubbished by posters on here. What do they fear?
Don't fear anything..just want the truth re the dogs told
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Don't fear anything..just want the truth re the dogs told
Your version, anyway
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Your version, anyway
no Grime's version
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Were the services of a VRD requested / offered prior to late July 07?
If not, why not?
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no Grime's version
You mean you disagree with him?
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You mean you disagree with him?
No...I accept exactly what he says...he is the expert
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Why were the specialist dogs deployed to Praia da Luz?
Because the UK's top search expert recommended it.
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Have NO DOUBT that is you and certain other people who are known and are held responsible for derailing threads.
the mcanns and their supporters are terrfid of dogs and its no wonder dogs have smell senses 1000s of times better then humans
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the mcanns and their supporters are terrfid of dogs and its no wonder dogs have smell senses 1000s of times better then humans
Dogs have a terrific sense of smell...you just have to understand their limitations...I was singled out by a drugs dog at Sydney Airport some years ago...but I didn't have any drugs
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It was the NPIA (from the UK) who recommended the UK dogs should be flown in and it was the NPIA who drew up the initial list of locations for those UK dogs to examine.
The first part is certainly correct, but I have major reservations about the part I underline.
Certainly that ought to have been Harrison's role, but Harrison's role was largely usurped.
Harrison's recommendations for canine inspections were: the holiday apartments, the Murats' place, all cars owned or driven by Murat, areas in and around PdL, and that was it.
How the other searches (and extended vehicle search) came about is a mystery.
Also, it is far from clear that Grime was representing SYP in PdL.
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The first part is certainly correct, but I have major reservations about the part I underline.
Certainly that ought to have been Harrison's role, but Harrison's role was largely usurped.
Harrison's recommendations for canine inspections were: the holiday apartments, the Murats' place, all cars owned or driven by Murat, areas in and around PdL, and that was it.
How the other searches (and extended vehicle search) came about is a mystery.
Also, it is far from clear that Grime was representing SYP in PdL.
Grime had retired 2008 from the force, but was a trainer for SYP and on SIPA database
He worked for the SYP when he collaborated with Portugal in 2007.
Corrected the above
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post425.html#p425
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The NPIA drew up on 23 July the initial list of locations for the specialist dogs to examine.
Later additions (one villa and more cars) were IMO decided by the team which included NPIA as well as LP and PJ.
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The NPIA drew up on 23 July the initial list of locations for the specialist dogs to examine.
Later additions (one villa and more cars) were IMO decided by the team which included NPIA as well as LP and PJ.
Why, in his summary of all searches, did Harrison distance UK involvement in all except those searches he recommended?
And thinking about it more clearly, Grime certainly was not representing SYP in PdL, because SYP clearly had no expectation of seeing either dogs or handler again after they had finished and, indeed, didn't.
Grime was free lance in PdL.
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Why, in his summary of all searches, did Harrison distance UK involvement in all except those searches he recommended?
And thinking about it more clearly, Grime certainly was not representing SYP in PdL, because SYP clearly had no expectation of seeing either dogs or handler again after they had finished and, indeed, didn't.
Grime was free lance in PdL.
I am a retired police offer, previously at the service of the South Yorkshire police. Between August 1-8, 2007, and while working for the South Yorkshire police, I collaborated with the Judicial Police, Portugal, as regards their Operations Task Force.
On the 17th of August 2007, I completed a report for the Head of Investigations of the Judicial Police, which was submitted by the Leicestershire Police. This report is exhibited as MG/1 and identified by the label bearing my signature. The Judicial Police is in possession of the originals of the search reports and the videos showing all searches performed and the reaction of the dogs. In addition to the report, Sam Harkeness of the Progresso Nacional Police Agency sent me by email several written questions sent by the Judicial Police together with a request for a written deposition. This deposition was submitted without me having seen or having knowledge of the final report from the forensic agency responsible for analyzing the evidence submitted in this case.
As the link in my last post
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The first part is certainly correct, but I have major reservations about the part I underline.
Certainly that ought to have been Harrison's role, but Harrison's role was largely usurped.
Harrison's recommendations for canine inspections were: the holiday apartments, the Murats' place, all cars owned or driven by Murat, areas in and around PdL, and that was it.
How the other searches (and extended vehicle search) came about is a mystery.
Also, it is far from clear that Grime was representing SYP in PdL.
red claimed yesterday that harrison reccommended all cars driven or hired by mccanns a friends
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.... How the other searches (and extended vehicle search) came about is a mystery. ....
The 01 August decision to add the extra search locations and the reasons for doing so are officially documented here:
"Faced with the new matters brought to the file through the dog search reports above ....."
Processos 8 pages 2068 to 2070
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So, all said and done it was Harrison who suggested that the EVRD be brought in to look for signs of a cadaver and there was me thinking it was all down to Gonçalo Amaral. It certainly does appear that Amaral wasn't the only one who suspected the McCanns of involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.
Why is it that Grime also gets the blame for this fiasco, after all, he was only doing what he was tasked to do.
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So, all said and done it was Harrison who suggested that the EVRD be brought in to look for signs of a cadaver and there was me thinking it was all down to Gonçalo Amaral. It certainly does appear that Amaral wasn't the only one who suspected the McCanns of involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.
Why is it that Grime also gets the blame for this fiasco, after all, he was only doing what he was tasked to do.
It's part of the pattern which is to abuse and denigrate every single individual connected to this case except the T9 who remain almost saintly in public opinion.
God knows how.
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So, all said and done it was Harrison who suggested that the EVRD be brought in to look for signs of a cadaver and there was me thinking it was all down to Gonçalo Amaral. It certainly does appear that Amaral wasn't the only one who suspected the McCanns of involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.
Why is it that Grime also gets the blame for this fiasco, after all, he was only doing what he was tasked to do.
of course it was Harrison..amaral had never heard of dogs with these skills and didnt understand them...that's whats caused all the problems. Harrison didn't bring them in to investigate the parents though
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So, all said and done it was Harrison who suggested that the EVRD be brought in to look for signs of a cadaver and there was me thinking it was all down to Gonçalo Amaral. It certainly does appear that Amaral wasn't the only one who suspected the McCanns of involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.
Why is it that Grime also gets the blame for this fiasco, after all, he was only doing what he was tasked to do.
John, read Harrison's terms of reference, handed to him by the PJ, and heading each of his 3 reports:
Terms of reference to provide assistance to the Portuguese Judicial Police.
1. Assist the Judicial Police and GNR in assessing new or previous areas searched and give opinion on the best methods and assets to provide assurance as to the absence or presence of M McCann's concealed remains.
2. Act as a "critical friend" to the officer in charge of search planning and management and offer immediate and enduring peer review until case resolution or search suspension.
3. Assist in the development of framework models such as scenario based searching to aid homicide disposal searching.
4. Consider further opportunities or areas for search in order to locate M McCann as applicable to the latest intelligence and inform tion provided.
5. Where appropriate, provide independent and impartial advice on the enabling and disabling factors of specialist resources available either within Portugal or elsewhere in body detection.
6. To assist in decision support where requested by testing and challenging claims made by persons offering unorthodox search methods or devices to aid locating M McCann.
7. Where appropriate and requested, assist in advising on procedures to procure any non Portuguese specialist assets that are deemed to be relevant and useful.
Also, Harrison wrote this, quite early, in the first of his 3 reports:
This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed within the areas previously searched by Police in Zone 1 around Praia Da Luz. Other scenarios or possibilities may on request be considered and be subject of a further report.
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of course it was Harrison..amaral had never heard of dogs with these skills and didnt understand them...that's whats caused all the problems. Harrison didn't bring them in to investigate the parents though
'ere we go again. It was all Amaral's fault. No back up to the statement whatever.
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'ere we go again. It was all Amaral's fault. No back up to the statement whatever.
The response of the mccann supporters is so predictable Estuarine. 8(0(*
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of course it was Harrison..amaral had never heard of dogs with these skills and didnt understand them...that's whats caused all the problems. Harrison didn't bring them in to investigate the parents though
Really, that must be a first. Never known stranger abduction of a cadaver before...have you?
The dogs were obviously brought in to search for signs that an unreported death took place in apartment 5a.
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'ere we go again. It was all Amaral's fault. No back up to the statement whatever.
It's more than obvious that Amaral didn't understand them. He was under the impression that Eddie only alerted to dead bodies and had no idea that he also alerted to blood from living people. The following extract from his book proves that. He's got the facts completely the wrong way round - as it is only when Eddie alerts and Keela doesn't that Grime deduces that blood may not be the reason for the alert.
Quote
Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it's Keela's turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cadaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred.
Unquote
Both dogs alerted to the keyfob. Both dogs alert to blood from a living person. The forensic tests showed that it was Gerry's DNA that was present.
Amaral's description of how the dogs 'worked' in his book is simply not true.
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It's more than obvious that Amaral didn't understand them. He was under the impression that Eddie only alerted to dead bodies and had no idea that he also alerted to blood from living people. The following extract from his book proves that. He's got the facts completely the wrong way round - as it is only when Eddie alerts and Keela doesn't that Grime deduces that blood may not be the reason for the alert.
Quote
Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it's Keela's turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cadaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred.
Unquote
Both dogs alerted to the keyfob. Both dogs alert to blood from a living person. The forensic tests showed that it was Gerry's DNA that was present.
Amaral's description of how the dogs 'worked' in his book is simply not true.
It would be interesting to have sight of your certificates of competence in this field.
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Leicestershire Police Liaison officers were all asked whether anything about the behaviour or demeanor of the McCanns aroused their suspicion.
All replied no!
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Leicestershire Police Liaison officers were all asked whether anything about the behaviour or demeanor of the McCanns aroused their suspicion.
All replied no!
Irrelevant.
Were the Leicestershire Police in PDL when Madeleine disappeared ?
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It would be interesting to have sight of your certificates of competence in this field.
You are shooting the messenger.
It is Grime's explanation of how his dogs worked not mine. Grime states that if Eddie does not alert during a test - he does not send Keela in afterwards because he knows that if any blood had been present Eddie would have alerted.
Amaral seems to have missed or misunderstood all that information from Grime - including the crucial fact that Eddie also alerted to blood from living people.
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red claimed yesterday that harrison reccommended all cars driven or hired by mccanns a friends
Murat's Vehicles.
All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.
(Mark Harrison)
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Irrelevant.
Were the Leicestershire Police in PDL when Madeleine disappeared ?
They didn't need to be. It was the FLO who first noticed that the behaviour of Shannon Matthews mother was not conducive to the behaviour or reactions of a mother whose daughter had disappeared and so became suspicious. She wasn't there either when Shannon disappeared. That is what FLO's are trained to do.
Why would you think that several Leicestershire FLO's were any less competent?
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Really, that must be a first. Never known stranger abduction of a cadaver before...have you?
The dogs were obviously brought in to search for signs that an unreported death took place in apartment 5a.
Hmmm. What Harrison stated concerning his remit seems to be a little different. Checking for the potential presence of a dead body within the perimeter of Zone 1 after three months seems more than timely. Starting from the epicentre and any known connections seems perfectly normal to me, although I still don't understand why VRDs weren't brought in in mid-May. Were proposals made and not accepted? If no proposals were made, the PJ could have surely asked any country that did have VRDs (including, but not exclusively, the UK) ... why (seemingly) didn't they?
This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed within the areas previously searched by Police in Zone 1 around Praia Da Luz. Other scenarios or possibilities may on request be considered and be subject of a further report.
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It would be interesting to have sight of your certificates of competence in this field.
The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cadaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred.
(Goncalo Amaral)
To know that that (statement of Amaral's) is patently false, the only qualification you need is the ability to read. And the only reference you need is to the Madeleine McCann investigation files.
Amaral didn't know what he was talking about, or (worse) set out to deceive
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The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cadaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred.
(Goncalo Amaral)
To know that that (statement of Amaral's) is patently false, the only qualification you need is the ability to read. And the only reference you need is to the Madeleine McCann investigation files.
Amaral didn't know what he was talking about, or (worse) set out to deceive
He says "indicate" (not "prove").
Do you think Amaral and the NPIA and the LP should have written off the dog indications in apartment and garden as meaningless and not requested the additional searches?
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The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cadaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurredGoncalo Amaral)
To know that that (statement of Amaral's) is patently false, the only qualification you need is the ability to read. And the only reference you need is to the Madeleine McCann investigation files.
Amaral didn't know what he was talking about, or (worse) set out to deceive
Some newer readers / posters on here may not know that if both dogs alert, then the most likely scenario is just blood and NOT cadavar nor a dead body having lain there. Amaral is spouting nonsense to fit his theory.
The reason for that is because
Eddy alerts to Cadaver and Blood
Keela alerts just to Blood
So if they both alert then the most likely scenario is that it is a simple and very common blood alert.
To be reasonably sure of cadavar odour, or urine ..... etc.
Eddie must alert, but Keela must also sniff and NOT alert.
The two dogs must work in unison to provide anything worth looking at. One dog on its own proves nothing.
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The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.
One must ask: would a person such as Mr Grime, whose professional livelihood depended on the 100% reliability of his dogs, proceed to suggest the past presence of a corpse at locations in the McCanns’ flat, and in their hired car, if Madeleine might still be alive somewhere?
She might have been found alive the next day
If so, Martin Grime’s professional credibility and his livelihood would have been ruined for ever
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The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.
One must ask: would a person such as Mr Grime, whose professional livelihood depended on the 100% reliability of his dogs, proceed to suggest the past presence of a corpse at locations in the McCanns’ flat, and in their hired car, if Madeleine might still be alive somewhere?
She might have been found alive the next day
If so, Martin Grime’s professional credibility and his livelihood would have been ruined for ever
8((()*/
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Some newer readers / posters on here may not know that if both dogs alert, then the most likely scenario is just blood and NOT cadaver nor a dead body having lain there. Amaral is spouting nonsense to fit his theory.
The reason for that is because
Eddy alerts to Cadaver and Blood
Keela alerts just to Blood
So if they both alert then the most likely scenario is that it is a simple and very common blood alert.
To be reasonably sure of cadavar odour, or urine ..... etc.
Eddie must alert, but Keela must also sniff and NOT alert.
The two dogs must work in unison to provide anything worth looking at. One dog on its own proves nothing.
My own view is that Keela was the more useful of the two dogs since you knew what you had with her as she alerted to blood. Eddie on the other hand alerted to blood and many other substances related to humans including human remains, body fluids and even incinerated remains or ash.
When they both alerted you could be sure you had blood, anything else was I fear just pie in the sky!
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red claimed yesterday that harrison reccommended all cars driven or hired by mccanns a friends
Huh, I've just trawled through yesterday's posts and can't see it. Could you link please?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/dec/13/wikileaks-madeleine-mccann-british-police
You've just got to love a whistle blower.
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The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.
One must ask: would a person such as Mr Grime, whose professional livelihood depended on the 100% reliability of his dogs, proceed to suggest the past presence of a corpse at locations in the McCanns’ flat, and in their hired car, if Madeleine might still be alive somewhere?
She might have been found alive the next day
If so, Martin Grime’s professional credibility and his livelihood would have been ruined for ever
One thing is certain xtina and that is that the supposed cuddle cat alert was incorreect. Martin Grime made a mistake. The dog was alerting to something on the counter, NOT to CCat
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The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.
One must ask: would a person such as Mr Grime, whose professional livelihood depended on the 100% reliability of his dogs, proceed to suggest the past presence of a corpse at locations in the McCanns’ flat, and in their hired car, if Madeleine might still be alive somewhere?
She might have been found alive the next day
If so, Martin Grime’s professional credibility and his livelihood would have been ruined for ever
I disagree. Martin Grime could quite properly have claimed that his dog had alerted to something below ground -or residue which may have been decades old, or to a scent which had been innocently imported from some outside source - or by cross contamination. Hence his repeated warnings that an alert meant nothing evidentially unless and until it was corroborated.
Not once did he suggest that a corpse had ever been present anywhere - only that 'cadaverscent' (which could also have come from living person) may have been present.
As long as there had been an alert - he was in a 'Win-Win' situation - whatever the outcome IMO.
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Huh, I've just trawled through yesterday's posts and can't see it. Could you link please?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/dec/13/wikileaks-madeleine-mccann-british-police
You've just got to love a whistle blower.
But what whistle?
"Without delving into the details of the case, Ellis admitted that the British police had developed the current evidence against the McCann parents, and he stressed that authorities from both countries were working co-operatively."
It's a matter of public record that Harrison was in liaison with the PJ and proposed to get Grime to go over with his dogs, but there was nothing substantiated by the FSS, which also assisted.
In the meantime, what has been conspicuously ignored was:
In one of two cables referring to the McCann case, the US ambassador notes: "Madeleine McCann's disappearance in the south of Portugal in May 2007 has generated international media attention with controversy surrounding the Portuguese-led police investigation and the actions of Madeleine's parents."
He reported that his British counterpart thought "that the media frenzy was to be expected and was acceptable as long as government officials keep their comments behind closed doors".
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The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.
One must ask: would a person such as Mr Grime, whose professional livelihood depended on the 100% reliability of his dogs, proceed to suggest the past presence of a corpse at locations in the McCanns’ flat, and in their hired car, if Madeleine might still be alive somewhere?
She might have been found alive the next day
If so, Martin Grime’s professional credibility and his livelihood would have been ruined for ever
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Precisely Xtina.
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The achievements of the dog detectives are the result of a very long apprenticeship. It all starts with the selection of the best puppies when they are only a few months old. The most talented breed for this unusual "profession," is the Springer Spaniel. The trainer, Martin Grime, and his pupils undergo aptitude tests every year in order to obtain certificates proving their capability. In Great Britain, the police have no hesitation in calling in the specialist dog teams to assist in certain criminal investigations. Their skills are nowadays recognised by journalists, police and courts all over the world.
One must ask: would a person such as Mr Grime, whose professional livelihood depended on the 100% reliability of his dogs, proceed to suggest the past presence of a corpse at locations in the McCanns’ flat, and in their hired car, if Madeleine might still be alive somewhere?
She might have been found alive the next day
If so, Martin Grime’s professional credibility and his livelihood would have been ruined for ever
Grime and his dogs arrived 3 months later, not the day after the disappearance. In the meantime, countless people had used the apartments and cars.
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Grime and his dogs arrived 3 months later, not the day after the disappearance. In the meantime, countless people had used the apartments and cars.
Why don't you research cases where scents were picked up decades later, leading to identification of human remains ?
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Why don't you research cases where scents were picked up decades later, leading to identification of human remains ?
I have never said that the dogs weren't useful as an asset - just that, in this case, there was nothing to corroborate their alerts.
There are indeed cases in which dogs have been heroes. A high-five paw-up to them. However, dog handlers are unlikely to post when their dogs got it wrong, nor are the police, until false alerts lead to media accusations that the police were wasting time.
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I have never said that the dogs weren't useful as an asset - just that, in this case, there was nothing to corroborate their alerts.
There are indeed cases in which dogs have been heroes. A high-five paw-up to them. However, dog handlers are unlikely to post when their dogs got it wrong, nor are the police, until false alerts lead to media accusations that the police were wasting time.
We do not know they were false alerts in this case.
As has been well established, the forensics were inconclusive.
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We do not know they were false alerts in this case.
As has been well established, the forensics were inconclusive.
We do not know they were false alerts in this case.
As has been well established, the forensics were inconclusive.
What was inconclusive in the apartment? You and I probably share 5 alleles or more in common with her. It means nothing. If you check the DNA results, you'll find that unrelated people did.
The other aspect is how many VOCs would have been present in any significant amount that could be excluded from a random mixture of isolated molecules present in everyday life, if she had died there for any reason, that would still have been there 3 months later, bearing in mind the limited time between alleged death and removal.
That might be plausible if she had died there and her body had been stuffed in an underground area of some kind beneath the apartment. I'm not aware of any underground cellar, nor what the sewage system actually was, nor whether there was any access to it.
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Oh ffs John, will you simply pick a side and stick with it !
Your ever changing theatrical swings, dependent on the posting status of the board is wearing rather painfully thin !
As is Angelo's !
There is only one side on this forum OP and that is the truth. 8((()*/
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Oh ffs John, will you simply pick a side and stick with it !
Your ever changing theatrical swings, dependent on the posting status of the board is wearing rather painfully thin !
As is Angelo's !
Why should anyone be expected to "pick a side"? It's not a football game. It is (or should be) about what may have happened to a missing child and anything that may help find her.
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What was inconclusive in the apartment? You and I probably share 5 alleles or more in common with her. It means nothing. If you check the DNA results, you'll find that unrelated people did.
The other aspect is how many VOCs would have been present in any significant amount that could be excluded from a random mixture of isolated molecules present in everyday life, if she had died there for any reason, that would still have been there 3 months later, bearing in mind the limited time between alleged death and removal.
That might be plausible if she had died there and her body had been stuffed in an underground area of some kind beneath the apartment. I'm not aware of any underground cellar, nor what the sewage system actually was, nor whether there was any access to it.
I'm well aware of the D.N.A. results and what goes with it.
The extent of the 'contamination' would depend on how long the body was there, and the degree of decomposition, which in all likelihood would have been in it's preliminary stages.
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There is only one side on this forum OP and that is the truth. 8((()*/
Views as to what is the truth can vary. Who is to say what is true and what isn't ?
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I have never said that the dogs weren't useful as an asset - just that, in this case, there was nothing to corroborate their alerts.
There are indeed cases in which dogs have been heroes. A high-five paw-up to them. However, dog handlers are unlikely to post when their dogs got it wrong, nor are the police, until false alerts lead to media accusations that the police were wasting time.
This post pretty much covers I would want to contribute to this debate, the dogs are tools used to detect evidence that humans are unable to detect with our senses. In this case however the dogs didn't contribute in any capacity when introduced into the investigation. Despite several apparent "alerts" the forensics found nothing to corroborate them. It's pretty clear cut, dogs are tools not evidence of guilt.
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I completely agree BUT when certain members (who should know better) alter their posting style and content to kowtow to the general consensus of debate in deference of earlier stated beliefs it pisses me right off !
Please explain your allegation OP.
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This post pretty much covers I would want to contribute to this debate, the dogs are tools used to detect evidence that humans are unable to detect with our senses. In this case however the dogs didn't contribute in any capacity when introduced into the investigation. Despite several apparent "alerts" the forensics found nothing to corroborate them. It's pretty clear cut, dogs are tools not evidence of guilt.
The dogs can provide evidence but without corroboration that evidence can never become proof.
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The dogs can provide evidence but without corroboration that evidence can never become proof.
Concisely put. They do have to find something though in the first place and if there had been any body for even a short period of time in the apartment the dogs, as I understand, would have been alerting quite considerably. I'm of the opinion that the lack lustre response from the dogs does really lead to the conclusion that no one really came to harm, or indeed died in the apartment.
What is also quite infuriating was at the time the forensics were being analysed there seemed to be a concentrated effort to establish internet myth that the forensics were in some way incriminating of both or one of Madeleine's parents. The case in point here being that if there was even a shred of evidence then the McCanns would have been detained.
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Concisely put. They do have to find something though in the first place and if there had been any body for even a short period of time in the apartment the dogs, as I understand, would have been alerting quite considerably. I'm of the opinion that the lack lustre response from the dogs does really lead to the conclusion that no one really came to harm, or indeed died in the apartment.
What is also quite infuriating was at the time the forensics were being analysed there seemed to be a concentrated effort to establish internet myth that the forensics were in some way incriminating of both or one of Madeleine's parents. The case in point here being that if there was even a shred of evidence then the McCanns would have been detained.
'lack lustre response'
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Now that's hardly scientific.
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The dogs can provide evidence but without corroboration that evidence can never become proof.
"Evidence" in a debunkerian sense... which, I gathered, was an argument about semantics.
A squashed mosquito on a wall could have been presented as "evidence" of violent behaviour. Whether a court would have accepted the implications might be a different matter.
ETA: Post the Cipriano case.
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We do not know they were false alerts in this case.
As has been well established, the forensics were inconclusive.
They were NOT false alerts.
The dogs alerted to cadaver and blood, and DNA was located at the alert sites.
What makes that "false"?
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They were NOT false alerts.
The dogs alerted to cadaver and blood, and DNA was located at the alert sites.
What makes that "false"?
No they didn't...forum myth which you have swallowed hook line and sinker...even Grime is not sure what Eddie alerted to...fact
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They were NOT false alerts.
The dogs alerted to cadaver and blood, and DNA was located at the alert sites.
What makes that "false"?
We don't know what Eddie alerted to that's the problem, now if a dog could only speak, that would be a breakthrough. 8)-)))
oops sorry Dave...I see you have already pointed this out.
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And still we wait for a single example of a missing person found alive after a death dog indicated that they weren't.
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And still we wait for a single example of a missing person found alive after a death dog indicated that they weren't.
However, even if the dog is correct, the dog voices absolutely no opinion on how the scent came to be there.
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However, even if the dog is correct, the dog voices absolutely no opinion on how the scent came to be there.
Neither does the dog know whether the scent was from a cadaver or a live person - or who it belonged to or how old it was.
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Oh ffs John, will you simply pick a side and stick with it !
Your ever changing theatrical swings, dependent on the posting status of the board is wearing rather painfully thin !
As are Angelo's !
Why is being prepared to consider different aspects and angles before arriving at a conclusion theatrical, OP?
Isn't it far more theatrical to stick religiously to one's point and have everyone and everything dance around it?
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Why is being prepared to consider different aspects and angles before arriving at a conclusion theatrical, OP?
Isn't it far more theatrical to stick religiously to one's point and have everyone and everything dance around it?
Justice isn't like a rugby game or a football match, you don't pick a side and stick with it as Opposing Pat earlier suggested. If only it were so simple.
Justice requires that you look at all aspects of a case, perusing the available evidence and only make a decision on that basis. All too often people make decisions on justice on the basis of their own prejudices and this is where the criminal justice system falls down. Dogmatically refusing to alter ones position is not the way one should approach these cases.
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As far as I am aware the offer of specialist dogs was made a early as mid-May 2007 with Keela standing by ready to be flown out but the PJ turned the offer down. So why did take them nearly three months to change their minds?
Do you have any source for this please? I have looked but can find no reference to specialist dogs being requested or even offered as early as May 2007. There is a vast corpus of information though and I could easily have missed the relevant news article or file report.
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I carried on looking and have found the following:
Though it is only a news article it does refer to an offer of specialist assistance made in May. Does anyone else know of anything which confirms this offer?
The potential breakthrough led to immediate criticism of Portuguese police for missing key evidence, and failing to bring in outside expertise earlier in the investigation.
The apartment was searched this weekend even through it had been "released'' as a crime scene by Portuguese authorities on June 11, cleaned and rented out to other families.
Former detectives are mystified as to why it has taken more than three months to make the discovery. Mark Williams-Thomas, a former Surrey detective and now a leading child protection expert, said: "I am staggered that it has taken so long. The police should have sealed the apartment on day one, and then conducted a thorough examination - this would have taken days and would have involved stripping the apartment bare.
"Even if this proves not to be significant, it should have been discovered in the first few days and eliminated. Just imagine the impact it will have on Gerry and Kate [McCann] so many months on - to find that something so vital was missed.
"It is great that British police have finally carried out a review but why has it taken three months for it to happen? It makes a mockery of the Portuguese investigation''
British police dog handlers had offered expertise to Portuguese authorities in May. They were only invited to join a "review of evidence'' last week. A two-day "final'' search of Mr Murat's villa, 150 yards from where Madeleine disappeared, uncovered no new evidence. As many as 10 officers had spent Saturday clearing thick vegetation. They began digging yesterday and two British police technicians used scanning equipment to detect whether any earth had been "disturbed'' recently.
I have no access to the Telegraph archive so have copied the article from Newsbank (a reputable archive of all national and many local UK and other newspapers)
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/dogexpertisetelegraph_zps42ef54a3.png)