Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on August 02, 2014, 04:38:56 PM
Title: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: John on August 02, 2014, 04:38:56 PM
Smithman was reported as carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas but Madeleine's parents reported that she was dressed in short sleeved pyjamas when she disappeared.
According to Aoife Smith, the man she and her family encountered in Praia da Luz on the night that Madeleine McCann disappeared was carrying a child wearing long sleeved pyjamas. Aoife Smith's statement (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm#p6p1611)
The pyjamas which Madeleine wore on the night she disappeared were of the short sleeved style as per the images shown below.
Unless Aoife was mistaken, Smithman was not carrying Madeleine McCann.
(http://i.imgur.com/Caqh2FK.jpg)
Pyjamas identical to those worn by Madeleine McCann when she disappeared.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 03, 2014, 06:33:36 PM
If Maddie really was abducted, and the Smith's sighting wasn't Gerry, then Kate had absolutely no reason to lie/mislead about the details of the 2 sightings....
But she did, it's here for all to see......
Madeleine Was Here (7th May 2009)
Voice over: 'The most likely sighting of Madeleine was by Jane Tanner, a friend of the McCanns.' 'In the files Kate believes another witness statement from an Irish family describes a very similar sighting to Jane's.'
KM: 'There's actually quite a lot of similarities & it does beg the question, I mean how many people carry their children on a cold night not covered, y'know, nothing on their arms or their feet. no blanket.
'Now either there's been 2 people carrying children in that way, who haven't come forward to eliminate themselves or potentially they are related.'
Interviewer: But you think that child is Madeleine?
KM: I think there's a good chance it could be Madeleine, certainly the description there sounds to me like Madeleine.
Gerry : "Jane went to check on her children and it was at that point she was just passed us going up to the corner and she saw a man carrying a young girl with almo.. she described independently the pyjamas that Madeleine had on.."
The McCann's reconstruction has Smithman carrying the child in a manner which was not as described in the Smith family witness statements. Instead, it depicts him carrying the child in the manner of Bundleman, as was described by Jane Tanner, in her sighting.
Madeleine "Supposedly" went to bed in short sleeved pyjamas? Do we know this for a fact?
IIRC Kate confirmed the short sleeves Eleanor. The description of 'long sleeves' could well be a flawed memory. No self respecting policeman would dismiss the whole of someone's description of two people on the strength of one discrepancy.
The police are well aware of how fallible memories are and do not expect witnesses to have perfect recall.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 05, 2014, 04:08:19 PM
What's your take on Smithman then?
Why are SY bothering with him, given that his child is wearing the wrong pyjamas & therefore it obviously isn't the abductor?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: jassi on August 05, 2014, 04:10:08 PM
IIRC Kate confirmed the short sleeves Eleanor. The description of 'long sleeves' could well be a flawed memory. No self respecting policeman would dismiss the whole of someone's description of two people on the strength of one discrepancy.
The police are well aware of how fallible memories are and do not expect witnesses to have perfect recall.
The description of 'long sleeves' could well be a flawed memory.
Or she could infact be correct, given that Aiofe remembered that her arms were by her side, so, she got a half decent look at those arms then.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Eleanor on August 05, 2014, 04:12:28 PM
No, but didn't they hold up an allegedly identical pair at one of their many interviews ?
I don't know. But I hope that WS has reported this to Scotland Yard.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Brietta on August 05, 2014, 08:06:48 PM
Aoife was the only witness to say that the child being carried was wearing a long sleeved top; if the child was Madeleine, she could simply have been mistaken.
We really have no idea what the NSY take is on Smithman except that if they thought there was the slightest possibility he was Madeleine’s father, they would not have eliminated him from the inquiry.
1) Tannerman did not come forward to rule himself out after seven years of his very precise e-fits doing the rounds; NSY checked the crèche records to find him.
2) Mr Smith did not get a good look at the man’s face partly because of the poor lighting and it is widely accepted that his later identification of the man as Madeleine’s father has been withdrawn; just as the identification made by Richard and Susan McCluskey in exact circumstances has been discounted - ie they were influenced by images on the media. Both misidentifications made in good faith are on record as being unfounded.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: ferryman on August 05, 2014, 08:21:25 PM
I think the clincher that Martin Smith no longer believes the man he saw to be Gerry is that he agreed to produce an e-fit.
There is a school of thought that the efit was produced from his description and without his say-so, but I don't accept that at all, in large part because I don't think it would be possible to produce an e-fit that detailed from a written description alone, particularly recorded in reported rather than verbatim form.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 05, 2014, 08:26:24 PM
Aoife was the only witness to say that the child being carried was wearing a long sleeved top; if the child was Madeleine, she could simply have been mistaken.
We really have no idea what the NSY take is on Smithman except that if they thought there was the slightest possibility he was Madeleine's father, they would not have eliminated him from the inquiry.
1) Tannerman did not come forward to rule himself out after seven years of his very precise e-fits doing the rounds; NSY checked the crèche records to find him.
2) Mr Smith did not get a good look at the man’s face partly because of the poor lighting and it is widely accepted that his later identification of the man as Madeleine’s father has been withdrawn; just as the identification made by Richard and Susan McCluskey in exact circumstances has been discounted - ie they were influenced by images on the media. Both misidentifications made in good faith are on record as being unfounded.
Innocent creche dad completed an LC questionnaire in 2007.
'Bungling police had 'prime suspect' details for SIX YEARS without realising'
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 31, 2014, 05:22:34 PM
Mrs McCann then ran down to the rest of the party shouting, ‘Madeleine’s gone! Someone’s taken her!’ As everyone rushed back and began to search, Mrs McCann ran into the car park yelling her lost daughter’s name. In extracts printed by The Sun, she tells of how windy it was, and says she kept imagining how cold Madeleine would be in her short-sleeved Eeyore pyjamas, and wishing she’d had her warmer Barbie pyjamas on.
so Aoiffee may have been mistaken or the child was not Maddie
Or Madeleine was never wearing short-sleeved pyjamas.
Take your choice.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 31, 2014, 06:55:43 PM
Madeleine Was Here
Voice over: 'The most likely sighting of Madeleine was by Jane Tanner, a friend of the McCanns.' 'In the files Kate believes another witness statement from an Irish family describes a very similar sighting to Jane's.'
KM: 'There's actually quite a lot of similarities & it does beg the question, I mean how many people carry their children on a cold night not covered, y'know, nothing on their arms or their feet. no blanket.
'Now either there's been 2 people carrying children in that way, who haven't come forward to eliminate themselves or potentially they are related.'
Interviewer: But you think that child is Madeleine?
KM: I think there's a good chance it could be Madeleine, certainly the description there sounds to me like Madeleine.
IIRC Kate confirmed the short sleeves Eleanor. The description of 'long sleeves' could well be a flawed memory. No self respecting policeman would dismiss the whole of someone's description of two people on the strength of one discrepancy.
The police are well aware of how fallible memories are and do not expect witnesses to have perfect recall.
Quite. Aoife gave her statement about the sighting more than three weeks after the occurrence. She says the child was wearing long sleeves but also says she couldn't see very well because the man's arms were around the child. Of course in "sceptic land" there's absolutely no likelihood whatsoever that she could have been mistaken, is there?!
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 31, 2014, 07:10:13 PM
Madeleine Was Here.
Their documentary, in which, the way Smithman carried the child was misrepresented.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 31, 2014, 08:20:33 PM
I reckon SY, the worlds finest police force, are gonna crack this case and no mistake.
They'll collar that pyjama changing abductor, who had a key to 5a & could be mistaken for Mr McCann, and Maddie will be home in time for christmas.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 31, 2014, 08:25:35 PM
In extracts printed by The Sun, she tells of how windy it was, and says she kept imagining how cold Madeleine would be in her short-sleeved Eeyore pyjamas, and wishing she’d had her warmer Barbie pyjamas on.
Where are these Barbie pyjamas?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 31, 2014, 08:34:19 PM
May 4, 2007
Jill Renwick, a family friend, told GMTV at 7:45am, on the morning of 04 May, that the distraught parents were certain that Madeleine had been abducted. "They were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour."
Speaking to the BBC later, Ms Renwick said ...
Ms Renwick described the missing girl as a "very pretty, very blonde three-year-old". Madeline was said to have been wearing white pyjamas when she went missing.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 31, 2014, 08:38:43 PM
May 15, 2007
"Kate dressed Amelie in her sister's pyjamas and the baby said: 'Maddy's jammies. Where is Maddy?' But she is too young to understand. And how do you explain?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 31, 2014, 08:43:27 PM
May 26, 2007 Witness Aoife Smith
She did not see the child's face because she was lying against the individual's left shoulder in a vertical position against the individual.
There was nothing covering the child, a comforter/blanket or any other piece of clothing but she only saw her back.
She was wearing light trousers, white or light pink, that may have been pyjamas.
She also had a light top, with long sleeves. She is not sure if the child's top was the same colour as her trousers, saying only that it was very light. The fabric was the same as the trousers. The material was lightweight/thin and could have been cotton.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 31, 2014, 08:47:24 PM
April 11, 2008
RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW DAVID PAYNE
you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour
[Jane Tanner] definitely mentioned it to me you know after Madeleine had been abducted and you know on the, the following day before she’d actually mentioned it to Kate and there was a, a newspaper report, I think it was in the Telegraph err certainly one of the newspapers anyway, that was sort of describing err Madeleine’s pyjamas and, and err Jane said that’s not right, how did they get that, well she said you know, that in, I don’t know how they get that information anyway, my recollections were this was what she was wearing and described it you know differently you know to what the, the, the press had, and that was before she’d even seen Kate so you know, the strength of that argument is just absolutely overwhelming, you know given the time frame err you know of when Madeleine must have gone, gone, that you know and for her to have described in detail the pull ups at the bottom of the pyjamas err you know the colours, you know and the timing is just, you know well, so.
Amazingly Jane Tanner knew what pyjamas Madeleine was wearing. But wait......
I’ve never seen Madeleine in pyjamas at home and or anywhere so”. (JT Rog)
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Lace on September 01, 2014, 04:24:11 PM
Aiofe also said the man was aged 20-30.
Martin Smith said the man wasn't a tourist.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 02, 2014, 05:30:16 PM
Notice how CW had a money shot of those long sleeved pyjamas, having previously shown Maddie dressed in short sleeves.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Lace on September 02, 2014, 07:22:22 PM
Aoife says she didn't see the pyjama top properly as the mans arms were across it. I wonder if she saw the top of the pyjama sleeve and presumed they were long sleeves.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2014, 12:39:34 PM
The facts are open to interpretation - as you are demonstrating.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Brietta on September 04, 2014, 12:43:57 PM
Isn’t it interesting that not one of the Smith family statements we have seen concerning the man carrying the pyjama clad child actually saw the person’s face.
Therefore they would have been unable to provide details which would have enabled an efit of the individual to be composed.
We know that Mrs Smith spoke to the person involved.
We know that Mrs Smith refused to alter her statement to back up her husband’s erroneous identification of that man.
We can therefore assume that she was the source of the very detailed efit.
If this is the case she or whoever provided the efit information is obviously a very observant witness who had a clear view of the individual and a clear view of the child. Mrs Smith is reported as having asked if the child was asleep so she did look at her.
It is not outwith the bounds of probability that a description of the child and what she was wearing is contained within her statement; Madeleine’s mother has described the short sleeved PJs Madeleine was wearing; much nonsense has been spouted about Aoife saying the child was wearing a long sleeved top; we are not privy to Mrs Smith’s account ~ but a pound to a penny it will confirm that the child she saw was indeed wearing a short sleeved garment.
Might be worth remembering next time anyone posts rubbish - that we have not heard what Mrs Smith had to say and she might be saying something different from Aoife and as she certainly was when she firmly refuted her husband's later addition to his statement.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: misty on September 04, 2014, 01:46:22 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong - but didn't Snr Amaral state that the Smiths got the timing of their sighting wrong? I will look for the interview in which he said it.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 04, 2014, 01:56:12 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong - but didn't Snr Amaral state that the Smiths got the timing of their sighting wrong? I will look for the interview in which he said it.
The yard know it was Smithman who was carrying Madeleine away. Redwood just can't help laughing when saying this sighting may be innocent @)(++(* Possibly wearing pyjamas Redwood says.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 04, 2014, 02:04:35 PM
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 04, 2014, 09:03:10 PM
IMO the long sleeves described by ASmith are a big indication that the carried girl she saw was not the missing girl.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 04, 2014, 09:45:28 PM
No it was the road that Smithman came down, called Rua d'Escola. Sometimes it has a longer name which means the same thing. He walked down there passing, or going into, the Staff Quarters and 50 metres further on met Peter Smiths group. He was walking in a southerly direction. As he came to the junction with Rua de Abril he passed Martin Smiths group and then Aiofie on the other side of the road.
We have worked out from Aoifes statement that he did not go in a westerly direction up Rua de Abril
We dont know if he went straight on down the steps towards the sea, or if he turned in an easterly direction towards The Church and Malinkas. Malinkas flat was only about 40 - 50 metres past Aoifie on Rua de Abril [or maybe set back in a little parking area.] Not sure, but it was thereabouts.
Malinka is no longer a suspect.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Brietta on September 05, 2014, 10:09:50 AM
A missing child is wearing short sleeves. A witness sees a child with long sleeves being carried. Logic says they are not the same child, IMO.
Exactly: so there are at least four of us who agree that the child seen by the Smith family may not have been Madeleine ~ her clothing may have been changed ~ or that Aoife may have been mistaken.
I think it possible that Aoife’s statement may differ from her mother’s in this regard.
I think it is still possible that the man seen by Jane Tanner is still not completely out of the frame.
I am also of the opinion that the Met know a lot more about all of this than they are (rightly) telling us.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Lace on September 05, 2014, 10:37:59 AM
Exactly: so there are at least four of us who agree that the child seen by the Smith family may not have been Madeleine ~ her clothing may have been changed ~ or that Aoife may have been mistaken.
I think it possible that Aoife’s statement may differ from her mother’s in this regard.
I think it is still possible that the man seen by Jane Tanner is still not completely out of the frame.
I am also of the opinion that the Met know a lot more about all of this than they are (rightly) telling us.
Aoife says she couldn't see the pyjama's clearly as the individual had his arms across the child. It is possible she saw the top of the pyjama's which did have a short sleeve and presumed they were long sleeved.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 05, 2014, 11:23:42 AM
Aoife says she couldn't see the pyjama's clearly as the individual had his arms across the child. It is possible she saw the top of the pyjama's which did have a short sleeve and presumed they were long sleeved.
"Her arms were suspended along her body and were not around the individual's neck."
"Questioned, states that the individual did not speak nor did the child as she was sleeping deeply."
"Questioned, says that the individual did not speak nor did the child as she was in a deep sleep."
A deep sleep is the normal way to think but this description connects with Eddie's alerts.
"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant." (Martin Grime)
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: John on September 05, 2014, 12:24:56 PM
I have yet to read the posts made on this thread over the last several days but from posts that have been reported it would appear that certain claims are being made about Smithman and the significance of what the child he was carrying was wearing.
First off, according to the information in the files only one witness made any mention of the long-sleeved pj's and that was young Aoife Smith. We have no way of knowing if any other member of the Smith family spoke of this however the fact that Gonçalo Amaral made no specific comment about it would appear to support the known facts.
So taking what Aoife reported as being correct for the moment, what are we to deduce?
1. Since the McCann's reported that Madeleine was wearing short-sleeved pj's then the Smith sighting was not of Madeleine.
2. Aoife was mistaken about the sleeves of the pj's and Smithman was indeed carrying Madeleine.
Exactly: so there are at least four of us who agree that the child seen by the Smith family may not have been Madeleine ~ her clothing may have been changed ~ or that Aoife may have been mistaken.
I think it possible that Aoife’s statement may differ from her mother’s in this regard.
I think it is still possible that the man seen by Jane Tanner is still not completely out of the frame.
I am also of the opinion that the Met know a lot more about all of this than they are (rightly) telling us.
I believe you could be right about this Brietta but not for the reasons you might think. I believe Jane did see a carrier that evening and the tourist who purported that it was him is mistaken as are SY.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 05, 2014, 12:36:15 PM
"Her arms were suspended along her body and were not around the individual's neck."
"Questioned, states that the individual did not speak nor did the child as she was sleeping deeply."
"Questioned, says that the individual did not speak nor did the child as she was in a deep sleep."
A deep sleep is the normal way to think but this description connects with Eddie's alerts.
"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant." (Martin Grime)
comment 1....Could you keep your arms around someones neck whilst being carried upright and fast asleep? comment 2....Can you speak when you are asleep? and if the father spoke, he would risk waking the child comment 3....Same comment as 2 comment 4....Unrelated to the topic
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 05, 2014, 12:39:27 PM
I believe you could be right about this Brietta but not for the reasons you might think. I believe Jane did see a carrier that evening and the tourist who purported that it was him is mistaken as are SY.
That sound interesting John (I am more comfortable with "sire" though); would you care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 05, 2014, 12:40:03 PM
I believe you could be right about this Brietta but not for the reasons you might think. I believe Jane did see a carrier that evening and the tourist who purported that it was him is mistaken as are SY.
And how was he carrying her?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 05, 2014, 12:41:48 PM
I believe you could be right about this Brietta but not for the reasons you might think. I believe Jane did see a carrier that evening and the tourist who purported that it was him is mistaken as are SY.
I agree also that the man seen by JT is possibly not the innocent creche dad. He was going in the wrong direction to have been leaving the creche
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 05, 2014, 12:45:05 PM
I agree also that the man seen by JT is possibly not the innocent creche dad. He was going in the wrong direction to have been leaving the creche
It doesn't make sense for an abductor to be walking in that direction. Full stop. You would go the opposite way for a start. I will just cross the road that leads to the tapas where they all are. Yeah that makes perfect sense. The way he was carrying her should give you a good idea at how small and light the child was i.e. younger than a nearly 4 year old Madeleine.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 05, 2014, 12:46:04 PM
When your arms get tired or you are unaccustomed to carrying a child, you would change the position.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: John on September 05, 2014, 12:47:12 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/iXQBvGG.jpg?1)
The tourist who came forward provided clothing which he claimed his daughter wore the night Madeleine disappeared (right image) yet we know that Jane Tanner was quite specific and that one of the observations she made in those fleeting seconds was that the carried child had pj's with frilly bottoms (left image).
I find it very hard to believe that Jane got this so wrong.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 05, 2014, 12:50:56 PM
The tourist who came forward provided clothing which he claimed his daughter wore the night Madeleine disappeared (right) yet we know that Jane Tanner was quite specific and that one of the observations she made in those fleeting seconds was that the carried child had pj's with frilly bottoms.
.
Yes and it matches Crecheman's child who has been eliminated by the yard. I wonder where Tanner got frilly bottoms from?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 05, 2014, 12:55:16 PM
The tourist who came forward provided clothing which he claimed his daughter wore the night Madeleine disappeared (right image) yet we know that Jane Tanner was quite specific and that one of the observations she made in those fleeting seconds was that the carried child had pj's with frilly bottoms (left image).
I find it very hard to believe that Jane got this so wrong.
She wouldnt have reported the sighting and given that discrption for the sake of her health ....in jail!
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 05, 2014, 01:03:38 PM
When your arms get tired or you are unaccustomed to carrying a child, you would change the position.
You've never done much lifting work I take it. You lift in the easiest way especially walking a long distance. The way Smithman was carrying her is the way you would carry a nearly 4 years old Madeleine and not the way Tannerman was. Crecheman was carrying a light 2 year old.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 05, 2014, 01:17:24 PM
You've never done much lifting work I take it. You lift in the easiest way especially walking a long distance. The way Smithman was carrying her is the way you would carry a nearly 4 years old Madeleine and not the way Tannerman was. Crecheman was carrying a light 2 year old.
If it was crecheman and not another. Either way he didnt look comfortable carrying the child. You would only carry a child like that for a very short distance...............Like the car park, which may have been relieved of the driver who panicked when he saw Gerry had stopped and had not gone into the restaurant as expected. Carrying people is a completely different thing, to carrying loads. I have carried plenty of children.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Lace on September 05, 2014, 01:38:48 PM
The tourist who came forward provided clothing which he claimed his daughter wore the night Madeleine disappeared (right image) yet we know that Jane Tanner was quite specific and that one of the observations she made in those fleeting seconds was that the carried child had pj's with frilly bottoms (left image).
I find it very hard to believe that Jane got this so wrong.
I thought Jane said she saw a sort of 'turn up' on the bottom of the Pyjama's.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: John on September 05, 2014, 01:47:09 PM
If it was crecheman and not another. Either way he didnt look comfortable carrying the child. You would only carry a child like that for a very short distance...............Like the car park, which may have been relieved of the driver who panicked when he saw Gerry had stopped and had not gone into the restaurant as expected. Carrying people is a completely different thing, to carrying loads. I have carried plenty of children.
If there was an accomplice parked up say in the car park opposite mini reception for example, a position where they could see the comings and goings, could his exit have been hampered by the Gerry/Jez chat causing a delay and a potential problem for the carrier?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: John on September 05, 2014, 01:51:50 PM
Question is, was the frilly bottoms description gleamed from elsewhere?
( * ) Dark skinned individual, male sex, aged between 35 – 40, slim physical appearance, about 1.70m tall. Very dark, thick hair, longer at the back (she could only see him from behind). He was wearing linen type cloth trousers, beige to golden in colour, a "duffy" sic type jacket (but not that thick). His shoes were dark in colour, classic type. He had a hurried walk. He was carrying a child, who was lying on both his arms, in front of his chest. By the way he was dressed, he gave her the impression that he was not a tourist, because he was very "warmly dressed".
(**) About the child whom appeared to be sleeping, she only saw her legs. The child appeared to be older than a baby. She was barefoot and was wearing what appeared to be cotton pyjamas of a light colour (possibly white or light pink). She is not certain, but has the impression a design on the pyjamas, possibly a floral pattern, but she is not certain.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 05, 2014, 02:09:45 PM
Since he would have been the main suspect at the time, would they not have shown the identikit picture with Maddies Jammies ? The first one was eggman IIRC
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Lace on September 05, 2014, 02:20:01 PM
Jane mentions the pyjama's in her rogatory interview, I have tried to copy and paste but can't seem to get just that part, perhaps some one else could?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 05, 2014, 02:21:27 PM
She didnt mention frills that picture was made up from her sketch apparently.
Jane mentions the pyjama's in her rogatory interview, I have tried to copy and paste but can't seem to get just that part, perhaps some one else could?
L E I C E S T E R S H I R E C O N S T A B U L A R Y Form MG15(T) RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No SVF/108A Person Interviewed: Jane TANNER Number of Pages 46 Place of Interview: Force Headquarters Enderby Signature of Interviewing Date of Interview: 08/04/08 Officer producing exhibit Time Commenced: 1349 hours Time Concluded: 1509 hours Duration of Interview: 80 minutes Interviewing Officer(s) DC 4078 FERGUSON Tape Reference nos: SVF/108 Other Persons Present None
00.00.04 4078 “It is thirteen forty-eight on the afternoon of Tuesday the eighth of April two thousand and eight. I am DC Sophie FERGUSON from Leicestershire Major Crime Unit. And you are?” in my head all the time and they are the two things that are still, are still, are still there”. 4078 “And then think about the child again, as much as you can see of that child in that split second, and tell me what you saw?” Reply “Well, again, I mean, and this is, I think initially I couldn’t really bring, I could only really remember the feet. But the day after, when we had, they, at the interview, the person that was interviewing was really pushing me to try and, you know, remember any more details, and the one thing that I could really think was, erm, a turn-up of some description. And I don’t know whether this made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were, there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of design on the bottom of the pyjamas. And I did say it in my first statement and in my second statement I can remember saying it again and, erm, the translator in there, because I said ‘I don’t know whether this made it into my first statement or not’, but the translator sort of went ‘Oh yes, I can remember you going like this’, because I was moving my hands up, but I was sort of talking about something at the bottom of the pyjamas. Because, from my own point of view, and I think, you know, ‘Oh was I
trying to’, I can think that I would think ‘Oh maybe a little girl would be wearing pink pyjamas’, so, you know, if you were subconsciously putting things in your head, I can think pink pyjamas, yes, but I wouldn’t think of some detail around the bottom of the pyjamas as a specific thing to, to mention”. 00.36.39 4078 “And when you noticed the detail was it in any colour?” Reply “I don’t, I didn’t know, I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was, I couldn’t think of the colour, but I thought there was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom, so”. 4078 “And, overall, what colour would you say the pyjama bottoms were?” Reply “Erm, I can’t, I can’t remember, I mean, I, I can’t remember, well I can’t remember now, but I think they were sort of whitey but with this, with this pattern on, but then some pink. That’s, that’s what I thought at the time. It’s harder because now I know what the pyjamas were so I can’t”. 4078 “It is very difficult”. Reply “I think that is hard for me to actually”. 4078 “Yeah”. Reply “To think now because I can, I can see them now”. 4078 “Because you know what actually they would have been if it had have been Madeleine?” Reply “Yeah, exactly, yeah, so I can’t really go back to thinking what they were”. 4078 “It is very difficult. What about the child’s feet then, what can you say about feet, if anything, other than that they were uncovered?” Reply “Just that they were uncovered and it looked like they were, you know, they seemed to be asleep. I mean, they was definitely, you know, they were, as you would imagine if the child was asleep. But, you know, that’s all, that’s all I can, like I say, it was more just the, the fact they were, you know, you could see them”.
00.38.02 4078 “And the way you have held your hands like that, were the feet side-by-side likethat?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “So the child would have been held on its back?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “And you say that they were very relaxed as though they were asleep?” Reply “Yeah, yeah, they were not, there was no, you know, there was no struggle or any, yeah, they just looked like they were asleep. So, again, if you’d imagine somebody had been just, you know, taken out of their bed or something you’d imagine they’d be, but, no, they were very, you know, asleep”. 4078 “How long do you think it was that you had them in sight?” Reply “Erm, phew, not that, I mean, I did, I think I did go like that after they’d gone, so it probably wasn’t, phew, it’d be seconds, wouldn’t it, it’d be just like, phew, a few seconds and then as I got to the top I think I went like that, which I think is when I noticed more that they were walking quite quick. But, no, I mean, not, you know, not, not that long at all”. 4078 “I know this seems like an obvious question, which I think I know the answer to, because I’ve seen the artist’s impression, did you see the man’s face?” Reply “No, no, not, no, I mean, just the hair, well not, not that I could remember to give details, give details to”. 4078 “How far away from you were they at the closest point?” Reply “Phew, as, I mean, it’s hard to, sort of thing, but I think I was sort of halfway, it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres id’ say, if, I don’t know how far it is to there, but”. 4078 “I would say probably about, I am just guessing, but two and a half to three metres?”
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 05, 2014, 02:54:56 PM
If there was an accomplice parked up say in the car park opposite mini reception for example, a position where they could see the comings and goings, could his exit have been hampered by the Gerry/Jez chat causing a delay and a potential problem for the carrier?
The possibility of that scenario has crossed my mind many times
It seems the checks were done on the hour or half hour approx, so if they had been watching they wouldnt expect, the movements that were, on that night occuring between 9.10 and 9.15.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 07, 2014, 11:14:23 PM
My prediction is that the Smith sighting will be ruled out. I think it is likely it was an innocent non-english-speaking dad who parked just north of sighting then carried his sleeping daughter to home just south of sighting. This explains why he didn't answer Mrs S's greeting, and explains the closed eyes, and explains why the sleeves seen by Miss S are completely the wrong length for it to be the missing child.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: sadie on September 08, 2014, 12:28:37 AM
My prediction is that the Smith sighting will be ruled out. I think it is likely it was an innocent non-english-speaking dad who parked just north of sighting then carried his sleeping daughter to home just south of sighting. This explains why he didn't answer Mrs S's greeting, and explains the closed eyes, and explains why the sleeves seen by Miss S are completely the wrong length for it to be the missing child.
That is a possibility, but the way that he seemed to be avioding the Smiths makes me think not. That is only a gut feeling, but there seemed to be no interaction at all between Smithman and any part of the Smith family. Most people, have eye contact, smile or nod ... some reaction to others .... but seems not with Smithman.
Also why didn't he come forward?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 08, 2014, 01:57:20 AM
That is a possibility, but the way that he seemed to be avioding the Smiths makes me think not. That is only a gut feeling, but there seemed to be no interaction at all between Smithman and any part of the Smith family. Most people, have eye contact, smile or nod ... some reaction to others .... but seems not with Smithman.
Also why didn't he come forward?
Because IMO there has never been a poster appeal in portuguese language in PDL which describes the sighting and gives its location (the posters put up in July 2014 certainly don't). As well as the long sleeves - another thing which IMO makes this sighting likely to be not relevant, is that one witness saw closed eyes - that fits neither the live abduction scenario, nor the other scenario.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 08, 2014, 02:58:59 AM
Because IMO there has never been a poster appeal in portuguese language in PDL which describes the sighting and gives its location (the posters put up in July 2014 certainly don't). As well as the long sleeves - another thing which IMO makes this sighting likely to be not relevant, is that one witness saw closed eyes - that fits neither the live abduction scenario, nor the other scenario.
Pull the other one. Smithman has never heard of Madeleine McCann in 7 years and that's why he's never come forward. If you believe that you will believe anything the McCanns say - Oh sorry you do and that's the only reason why you discard the long sleeves. It would look unusual and stand out if Smithman was carrying a child with only short sleeves on at that time of night and there's your answer. Did the long sleeves stay with her? probably not they were dumped in a bin with her short sleeve pyjamas underneath. If she was found she would be discovered with short sleeves on. Smart? No it's very simple to do like changing your trousers and taking a jacket off.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: sadie on September 08, 2014, 10:41:57 AM
Because IMO there has never been a poster appeal in portuguese language in PDL which describes the sighting and gives its location (the posters put up in July 2014 certainly don't). As well as the long sleeves - another thing which IMO makes this sighting likely to be not relevant, is that one witness saw closed eyes - that fits neither the live abduction scenario, nor the other scenario.
[/b]
I dont follow that Pegasus. Drugged could well mean eyes closed and I think it highly probable that Madeleine was drugged before lifting .
Marilyn of Switzerland (pfa2} always thought that Madeleine was tazered. I know very little about tazering ... do you ? Would that mean eyes closed or open?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 08, 2014, 01:09:35 PM
If Maddie really was abducted, and the Smith's sighting wasn't Gerry, then Kate had absoloutely no reason to lie/mislead about the details of the 2 sightings....
But she did, it's here for all to see......
Madeleine Was Here (7th May 2009)
Voice over: 'The most likely sighting of Madeleine was by Jane Tanner, a friend of the McCanns.' 'In the files Kate believes another witness statement from an Irish family describes a very similar sighting to Jane's.'
KM: 'There's actually quite a lot of similarities & it does beg the question, I mean how many people carry their children on a cold night not covered, y'know, nothing on their arms or their feet. no blanket.
'Now either there's been 2 people carrying children in that way, who haven't come forward to eliminate themselves or potentially they are related.'
Interviewer: But you think that child is Madeleine?
KM: I think there's a good chance it could be Madeleine, certainly the description there sounds to me like Madeleine.
Gerry : "Jane went to check on her children and it was at that point she was just passed us going up to the corner and she saw a man carrying a young girl with almo.. she described independently the pyjamas that Madeleine had on.."
The McCann's reconstruction has Smithman carrying the child in a manner which was not as described in the Smith family witness statements. Instead, it depicts him carrying the child in the manner of Bundleman, as was described by Jane Tanner, in her sighting.
There is no innocent reason for Kate, & the McCanns own reconstruction, to have done that.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: John on September 11, 2014, 06:55:31 PM
Madeleine was wearing short sleeved pyjamas according to Kate and Aoife Smith was adamant that the kid she saw being carried down town just after 10pm had long sleeved ones on so that sort of rules Smithman out does it not?
Jane for her part never saw the child's arms but her e-fit reveals pyjama trousers with frilly turn-ups, something which again Madeleine wasn't wearing according to Kate.
So are both sightings red herrings?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 11, 2014, 06:58:32 PM
Madeleine was wearing short sleeved pyjamas according to Kate and Aoife Smith was adamant that the kid she saw being carried down town just after 10pm had long sleeved ones on so that sort of rules Smithman out does it not?
Was Aoifee adamant...does anyone know what her exact words were during her statement
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: John on September 11, 2014, 07:01:52 PM
Was Aoifee adamant...does anyone know what her exact words were during her statement
Witnesses statements can be very revealing. Had Aoife not noticed the long sleeved pj's she wouldn't have mentioned them so the fact that she mentioned it at all is a very strong indicator that that is in fact what she saw.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 11, 2014, 07:08:43 PM
Witnesses statements can be very revealing. Had Aoife not noticed the long sleeved pj's she wouldn't have mentioned them so the fact that she mentioned it at all is a very strong indicator that that is in fact what she saw.
Smithman knew he was probably going to be seen so how could he not connect the sighting to Maddy. I will put her in long sleves. Easy! But i will just throw these long sleeves away in a bin and leave in her short sleeves (hidden underneath long sleeved top) so if she is found Smithman can't be the one.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: John on September 11, 2014, 07:16:20 PM
The words which are attributed to Aoife are as follows:
Tinha uma blusa também clara, de mangas compridas.
Which translates literally as, 'Also had a light/clear blouse with long sleeves.'
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 11, 2014, 07:17:25 PM
The words which are attributed to Aoife are as follows:
Tinha uma blusa também clara, de mangas compridas.
Which translates literally as, 'Also had a light blouse with long sleeves.'
Thank you John. I believe she was wearing her short sleeved pyjamas underneath that long sleeved top and it was discarded.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 14, 2014, 10:23:49 PM
Thanks wonderfulspam. "almo.." is an interesting word.
BTW the sleeping 2 year old girl seen by JT did have a light pink blanket on her. Not on her lower legs. But on her torso. That it why the light pink blanket is in the SY girl clothing photo. JT did not realise it was a blanket. However you can see in the coloured sketch she helped to produce, that what she thought was the pyjama top, is actually the light pink blanket in the SY clothing photo.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: a.baker on September 14, 2014, 11:22:28 PM
If Tannermans child had a pink blanket with her and Madeleine's pink blanket was photographed still on her bed,why did anyone ever believe Tannermans child was Madeleine in the first place?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 15, 2014, 12:39:56 AM
If Tannermans child had a pink blanket with her and Madeleine's pink blanket was photographed still on her bed,why did anyone ever believe Tannermans child was Madeleine in the first place?
Because it was only in 2013 that SY identified the girl seen by JT and photographed that girl's blanket.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: sadie on September 15, 2014, 01:12:52 AM
Because it was only in 2013 that SY identified the girl seen by JT and photographed that girl's blanket.
Have you ever wondered if there were two or more pink blankets in Madeleines room? Just because only one is mentioned doesn't necessarily mean that there was only one.
Pegasus, are you absolutely certain that Tannerman was carrying a pink blanket, cos I dont recall mention of it.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 15, 2014, 02:16:24 AM
Have you ever wondered if there were two or more pink blankets in Madeleines room? Just because only one is mentioned doesn't necessarily mean that there was only one.
Pegasus, are you absolutely certain that Tannerman was carrying a pink blanket, cos I dont recall mention of it.
In SY's press release about the english dad whom SY identified as the man seen by JT, is an SY photo of the three fabric items which were on that dad's 2-yr old when he carried her at night. A pyjama top, pyjama trousers, and a light pink blanket. Why did SY include the light pink blanket in that photo? It can only be because that dad gave the blanket to SY and said this is what I used when I carried child home at night. I see absolutely no other possible explanation for why SY included that blanket in that SY photo. And IMO it matches the pink item on the girl's upper body in the coloured sketch which JT helped to produce in 2007.
In SY's press release about the english dad whom SY identified as the man seen by JT, is an SY photo of the three fabric items which were on that dad's 2-yr old when he carried her at night. A pyjama top, pyjama trousers, and a light pink blanket. Why did SY include the light pink blanket in that photo? It can only be because that dad gave the blanket to SY and said this is what I used when I carried child home at night. I see absolutely no other possible explanation for why SY included that blanket in that SY photo. And IMO it matches the pink item on the girl's upper body in the coloured sketch which JT helped to produce in 2007.
I always thought that 'pinky area' was where the artist had deliberately blanked out that part of the child's body which Jane Tanner did not see and so could not give a description for the artist to reproduce.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: sadie on September 15, 2014, 09:01:18 AM
In SY's press release about the english dad whom SY identified as the man seen by JT, is an SY photo of the three fabric items which were on that dad's 2-yr old when he carried her at night. A pyjama top, pyjama trousers, and a light pink blanket. Why did SY include the light pink blanket in that photo? It can only be because that dad gave the blanket to SY and said this is what I used when I carried child home at night. I see absolutely no other possible explanation for why SY included that blanket in that SY photo. And IMO it matches the pink item on the girl's upper body in the coloured sketch which JT helped to produce in 2007 http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/zztannerabductorsketches.jpg
Pink Blanket:
Just as I thought. You are not talking about Tannerman. You are talking about Innocentman.
The two may, or may not, be the same man.
Personally I think there are two men here. One carrying Madeleine with no blanket and one carrying his own daughter with a blanket. But none of us know. Jane Tanner would tho. She knows when she saw the man.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 15, 2014, 09:35:30 AM
Just as I thought. You are not talking about Tannerman. You are talking about Innocentman.
The two may, or may not, be the same man.
Personally I think there are two men here. One carrying Madeleine with no blanket and one carrying his own daughter with a blanket. But none of us know. Jane Tanner would tho. She knows when she saw the man.
SY seem to brilliant except when discounting Tannerman... 8)-)))
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: sadie on September 15, 2014, 10:43:16 AM
I always thought that 'pinky area' was where the artist had deliberately blanked out that part of the child's body which Jane Tanner did not see and so could not give a description for the artist to reproduce.
You are absolutely correct Benice. Seems Jane was unable to describe the upper body properly, maybe it didn't totally register. The artist not wanting to leave just two legs and a void above experimented with the upper body. You can see that from the three images. Personally I find the middle image the most likely to be correct. But perhaps as you say, the artist just left a void......
We shall never know.
Only my opinion but based upon almost 60 years of figure drawing
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 15, 2014, 03:15:25 PM
Just as I thought. You are not talking about Tannerman. You are talking about Innocentman.
The two may, or may not, be the same man.
Personally I think there are two men here. One carrying Madeleine with no blanket and one carrying his own daughter with a blanket. But none of us know. Jane Tanner would tho. She knows when she saw the man.
But Sadie the girl whom JT saw cannot possibly be the missing girl. JT definitely saw the pyjama legs extending well below the knees. The pyjamas the missing girl was wearing had short legs which would have ended above the knees in the carrying position JT described. The length of the pyjama legs in the JT sighting IMO proves that the girl JT saw was not the missing girl.
And the length of the pyjama arms in the Smith sighting IMO proves that was not the missing girl either. KM statement 4 May 2007: "short-sleeved top" AS statement 26 May 2007: "top with long sleeves"
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: sadie on September 15, 2014, 05:27:48 PM
But Sadie the girl whom JT saw cannot possibly be the missing girl. JT definitely saw the pyjama legs extending well below the knees. The pyjamas the missing girl was wearing had short legs which would have ended above the knees in the carrying position JT described. The length of the pyjama legs in the JT sighting IMO proves that the girl JT saw was not the missing girl.
And the length of the pyjama arms in the Smith sighting IMO proves that was not the missing girl either. KM statement 4 May 2007: "short-sleeved top" AS statement 26 May 2007: "top with long sleeves"
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id185.html
Holding up a small pair of pink and flowery pyjamas, Kate McCann described exactly what her eldest daughter was wearing when she was snatched on May 3.
The poignant description was given as part of BBC1's Crimewatch appeal to help the couple find their little girl.
Looking exhausted, she spoke in detail about the light pink top with capped sleeves and a picture of the cartoon character Eeyore curled up - the words "Sleepy Eeyore" written underneath.
Next she produced white cotton pyjama bottoms, covered with small flowers and another Eeyore motif on the right leg.
But, of course, the pyjamas she was holding so carefully in her lap were not Madeleine's, but those of Madeleine's younger sister, two-year-old Amelie.
The pyjamas we have all been calling Madeleines, were actually A****s ... nappy pyjamas, so sorry Pegasus but you cannot assume that Madeleines were the same shape. In fact they would not have been.
SY recognised the difference. I wonder why didn't we?
How inobservant of me !
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 15, 2014, 05:33:22 PM
This photo is not of the sister's pyjamas: (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42910000/jpg/_42910231_pyjamas_pa203b.jpg) It is from the files and it is of pyjamas which the PJ obtained from M&S with the specific purpose of getting pyjamas identical to those the missing child was wearing.
"equal in make, model, size, colours and designs ... to those the little girl was wearing at the time of her disappearance" (Source: processos page 1713).
Note the short legs.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: sadie on September 15, 2014, 06:04:40 PM
This photo is not of the sister's pyjamas: (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42910000/jpg/_42910231_pyjamas_pa203b.jpg) It is from the files and it is of pyjamas which the PJ obtained from M&S with the specific purpose of getting pyjamas identical to those the missing child was wearing.
"equal in make, model, size, colours and designs ... to those the little girl was wearing at the time of her disappearance" (Source: processos page 1713).
Note the short legs.
Those look like nappy pyjamas to me Pegasus.
.... but in any case, for a rough test, measure the length shoulder to hem of the top. Compare that to the length waist to trouser bottom. The trousers are considerably longer. Mentally note the ratio extra length to top length.
Now if you are wearing a t-shirt, may I suggest that - you slip it off and hold it upside down from the bottom hem, - then hang it upside down with the shirt bottom hem in line with your waist. - Look down and see where the shoulders of your T-shirt come and add a good bit corresponding to the difference in length of Jammie top to jammie bottom [the total being an approximation to the jammie length].
This will vary between us somewhat , but in my case the jammie trousers would have been well down my calves, nearer my ankles than my knees.
I have never done child figure drawing but from memory, I think young children have longer trunks relative to their legs, than adults do.
So those jammies pictured could be virtually, or even, full length
Sorry, I have to go now. May be back later.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 15, 2014, 06:36:48 PM
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42910000/jpg/_42910231_pyjamas_pa203b.jpg) The pyjamas in this photo from the police files are labelled for child height approx 97cm and are "equal in model and size" to those the missing girl was wearing. In the across-the-arms carrying position these pyjama legs would ride up above the knees.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: John on September 16, 2014, 04:53:25 PM
I always thought that 'pinky area' was where the artist had deliberately blanked out that part of the child's body which Jane Tanner did not see and so could not give a description for the artist to reproduce.
Fair enough but why did Tanner claim the pyjama trousers had turn-ups or frilly bottoms when they clearly didn't?
(http://i.imgur.com/iXQBvGG.jpg?1)
(left) Artists sketch based on Jane Tanner's sighting. (right) Clothing worn by tourists child.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: John on September 16, 2014, 05:00:17 PM
But Sadie the girl whom JT saw cannot possibly be the missing girl. JT definitely saw the pyjama legs extending well below the knees. The pyjamas the missing girl was wearing had short legs which would have ended above the knees in the carrying position JT described. The length of the pyjama legs in the JT sighting IMO proves that the girl JT saw was not the missing girl.
And the length of the pyjama arms in the Smith sighting IMO proves that was not the missing girl either. KM statement 4 May 2007: "short-sleeved top" AS statement 26 May 2007: "top with long sleeves"
Good post pegasus. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 16, 2014, 09:05:35 PM
Fair enough but why did Tanner claim the pyjama trousers had turn-ups or frilly bottoms when they clearly didn't?
(http://i.imgur.com/iXQBvGG.jpg?1)
(left) Artists sketch based on Jane Tanner's sighting. (right) Clothing worn by tourists child.
The orange bottoms look like turn ups - Tanner is easily influenced by others. He morphed into George Harrison when she didn't see his face. She only saw the child for seconds walking past and her first statement said older than a baby so hardly Madeleine at nearly 4 and the way he was carrying the child. Madeleine was spotted being carried with a long sleeved top over her pyjamas. I have no doubt about it. Summers was correct you would have to be living on Mars not to have heard of Madeleine McCann over the last 7 years and still Smithman hasn't cleared himself. That man is guilty!
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 16, 2014, 10:31:43 PM
The orange bottoms look like turn ups - Tanner is easily influenced by others. He morphed into George Harrison when she didn't see his face. She only saw the child for seconds walking past and her first statement said older than a baby so hardly Madeleine at nearly 4 and the way he was carrying the child. Madeleine was spotted being carried with a long sleeved top over her pyjamas. I have no doubt about it. Summers was correct you would have to be living on Mars not to have heard of Madeleine McCann over the last 7 years and still Smithman hasn't cleared himself. That man is guilty!
Yes those bands look like turn-ups. Turn-ups on the pyjamas are mentioned 8 times in JT's rog interview, for example: "... or turn-up, as I thought it was" It is clear when one looks at this phrase carefully, that JT thought they were most likely turn-ups, but was not completely sure, and it was the artist and other persons who chose to go with the frill alternative. As we now know (years later), it is likely she saw the English tourist identified by SY, and they were actually bands at the end of the pyjama legs, which did indeed look like turn-ups just as JT said.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 16, 2014, 10:58:38 PM
Am I right about these two points? 1. The mainstream "live abduction" theories have the child seen by the Smiths = the missing child. 2. The mainstream "concealment theories" have the child seen by the Smiths = the missing child.
If so, it is astounding that two opposite theories both share exactly the same difficulty - the long sleeves - and to get around this difficulty, both theories have to suppose that the carrier for some bizarre reason chose to put onto a child a long-sleeved top.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 16, 2014, 11:21:02 PM
Am I right about these two points? 1. The mainstream "live abduction" theories have the child seen by the Smiths = the missing child. 2. The mainstream "concealment theories" have the child seen by the Smiths = the missing child.
If so, it is astounding that two opposite theories both share exactly the same difficulty - the long sleeves - and to get around this difficulty, both theories have to suppose that the carrier for some bizarre reason chose to put onto a child a long-sleeved top.
I believe that same theory thinks that she had been dead for hours. We are talking about a child, so she wouldnt look limp, as described IIRC. Another thing was that they were accused of changing her pyjama top to long sleeves, to throw us off track, but then Kate was accused of lying when she said that the sleeves were short on JT sighting and Smith family.......Slip of the tongue I expect, since she knew what her child was really wearing.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 16, 2014, 11:42:14 PM
I believe that same theory thinks that she had been dead for hours. We are talking about a child, so she wouldnt look limp, as described IIRC. Another thing was that they were accused of changing her pyjama top to long sleeves, to throw us off track, but then Kate was accused of lying when she said that the sleeves were short on JT sighting and Smith family.......Slip of the tongue I expect, since she knew what her child was really wearing.
Yes I see your points. The "Smithman = abductor" and the "Smithman = concealer" theories (so completely opposite to each other) have in common that they both need to devise some explanation for how A.S. saw long sleeves.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 16, 2014, 11:42:38 PM
Am I right about these two points? 1. The mainstream "live abduction" theories have the child seen by the Smiths = the missing child. 2. The mainstream "concealment theories" have the child seen by the Smiths = the missing child.
If so, it is astounding that two opposite theories both share exactly the same difficulty - the long sleeves - and to get around this difficulty, both theories have to suppose that the carrier for some bizarre reason chose to put onto a child a long-sleeved top.
Absolutely correct, but not sure about the pyjamas riding up. It's something a parent does automatically......Pull down trousers etc to keep out the cold and bottoms that wide could easily have her bent knees inside, but only my opinion.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 16, 2014, 11:50:01 PM
Yes I see your points. The "Smithman = abductor" and the "Smithman = concealer" theories (so completely opposite to each other) have in common that they both need to devise some explanation for how A.S. saw long sleeves.
Easy explanation ................Her disappearance had nothing to do with either Smithman or crecheman.I do believe JT may possibly have seen the real one! What did happen to her is a mystery we can only hope SC can solve
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 16, 2014, 11:51:37 PM
Am I right about these two points? 1. The mainstream "live abduction" theories have the child seen by the Smiths = the missing child. 2. The mainstream "concealment theories" have the child seen by the Smiths = the missing child.
If so, it is astounding that two opposite theories both share exactly the same difficulty - the long sleeves - and to get around this difficulty, both theories have to suppose that the carrier for some bizarre reason chose to put onto a child a long-sleeved top.
It's not difficult to disguise a missing child in long sleeves. There's no way Smithman walked through the streets thinking he wouldn't be seen. You can't positively prove it was the missing child - her face couldn't be seen against his shoulder and the short sleeved description doesn't match. Everything else matches to being her. That man has never come forward to clear himself. The long sleeved top would be discarded at her destination so nothing could connect it to her. So the long sleeved top probably went in a bin and ended up at the tip.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2014, 12:05:53 AM
Absolutely correct, but not sure about the pyjamas riding up. It's something a parent does automatically......Pull down trousers etc to keep out the cold and bottoms that wide could easily have her bent knees inside, but only my opinion.
I still think the eyore legs (short, wide for entire length, and without elasticated band at the base) would be above knees in that carrying position. Back to the smith sighting and the long sleeves, SY must have noticed this difficulty, I wonder what they think of it.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2014, 12:22:16 AM
Easy explanation ................Her disappearance had nothing to do with either Smithman or crecheman.I do believe JT may possibly have seen the real one! What did happen to her is a mystery we can only hope SC can solve
Just my opinion - the disappearance had nothing to do with Smithman nor JTman. Carrying-in-arms-through-the-streets is not involved in the case at all JIMO.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 17, 2014, 12:32:16 AM
I still think the eyore legs (short, wide for entire length, and without elasticated band at the base) would be above knees in that carrying position. Back to the smith sighting and the long sleeves, SY must have noticed this difficulty, I wonder what they think of it.
1.They probably think the witness was mistaken, re:-sleeves. I doubt they think that there was a pyjama changer about. 2.They want to find the Dad that the Smith family saw, who ever he was.
I just checked and I was wrong about the Smith family saying she was limp, that was JT's sighting. Sorry. She wouldnt lay naturally against her father though.....Would she, if she had been deceased for hours? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A bit gruesome...sorry, but had to explain the implications of carrying a child who had deceased hours earlier.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2014, 12:40:08 AM
It's not difficult to disguise a missing child in long sleeves. There's no way Smithman walked through the streets thinking he wouldn't be seen. You can't positively prove it was the missing child - her face couldn't be seen against his shoulder and the short sleeved description doesn't match. Everything else matches to being her. That man has never come forward to clear himself. The long sleeved top would be discarded at her destination so nothing could connect it to her. So the long sleeved top probably went in a bin and ended up at the tip.
It would not be a very cunning disguise.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 17, 2014, 12:43:58 AM
In JT statement she doesnt mention sleeves(hope I got that right) so it might have been short sleeves on that sighting,we dont know. I think Gerry and Kate are the ones being accused of pyjama games, but you could be right Sadie, if they were changed. With light coloured sleeves and light arms and hands, I dont know how they could distinquish between long and short, in bad lighting
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2014, 12:50:46 AM
1.They probably think the witness was mistaken, re:-sleeves. I doubt they think that there was a pyjama changer about. 2.They want to find the Dad that the Smith family saw, who ever he was.
I just checked and I was wrong about the Smith family saying she was limp, that was JT's sighting. Sorry. She wouldnt lay naturally against her father though.....Would she, if she had been deceased for hours? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A bit gruesome...sorry, but had to explain the implications of carrying a child who had deceased hours earlier.
1. Yes I guess they have to consider the possibility the witness was mistaken. 2. Yes until they have ruled the sighting out they have to keep going on it. 3. Smiths do describe how the arms were situated.
My opinion is carrying-in-arms-through-the-streets is a ridiculous method for either an abductor or a concealer. I have read many cases of both types and this method does not feature.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: sadie on September 17, 2014, 12:51:14 AM
1. Yes I guess they have to consider the possibility the witness was mistaken. 2. Yes until they have ruled the sighting out they have to keep going on it. 3. Smiths do describe how the arms were situated.
My opinion is carrying-in-arms-through-the-streets is a ridiculous method for either an abductor or a concealer. I have read many cases of both types and this method does not feature.
3. Yes they did , but nothing unusual
In bold:- Unless of course, the person was interupted and had to make a quick escape by foot and hope his accomplice would catch him up in his vehicle when it was safe to do so.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2014, 01:09:02 AM
In bold:- Unless of course, the person was interupted and had to make a quick escape by foot and hope his accomplice would catch him up in his vehicle when it was safe to do so.
At least one of them describe how the arms were hanging down loosely, and one of them saw the eyes were closed, these two factors indicate the child they saw was asleep, which is a strong indicator that this was not the missing child.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Anna on September 17, 2014, 01:33:31 AM
1611 to 1614 Witness testimony of Aoife Smith taken 2007/05/26
*Snip* — On 30 April 2007 she travelled to Portugal on holiday, specifically to the Algarve. She came with her parents Martin and Mary Smith and her two nieces, AC and EC. — They stayed in the Estrela Da Luz complex in Praia da Luz where her parents have an apartment. — When they arrived at the apartment they met her brother, Peter Smith, her sister-in-law, S.McD.Smith, her nephew (six years old), CO** and the son of her sister-in-law, TA*** (13 years old). — They came on holiday for about 10 days, having returned to Ireland on 9 May 2007. (She is not absolutely certain of the day). — Her days on holiday were spent in the swimming pool of the complex where they were lodged, on the beach of Luz and in the shopping centre. Normally, they were spent in Praia da Luz - Vila da Luz. — Dinner was taken between 19h00 and 20h00, in the apartment or in the Restaurants "Dolphin", "Cavaleiro da Luz", "Chaplin" or the "Marujo", all situated in the Praia da Luz area. ' When they ate at home they would not normally go out. When they went to eat at the restaurants they stopped by Kelly's Bar, situated, she thinks, on Calheta Street in Praia da Luz
Bearing in mind how long it took the Smiths to come forward, I wonder what percentage of 100 they are sure it was the night of the 3rd they saw this man & child? I see no questioning regarding how many times the witnesses walked this route during the holiday. In fact, Aoife was not even sure which day they returned home.
_______________________________________
*Snip from Martin Smith's statement*
He was heading toward his apartment (Estrela da Luz complex) which is located a little above the street Travessa da Escola Primária (Primary school crossing). As he reached this artery, he saw an individual carrying a child, who walked normally and fitted in perfectly in that area, in that it is common to see people carrying children, at least during the holiday season.
Not too certain then, Misty
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: misty on September 17, 2014, 01:45:53 AM
I think the Smith group were sure of the date because some of them were flying from Faro the next morning.
That still doesn't mean their recollected sighting occurred on 3rd May,though, does it? How many people can recall accurately which night 2 weeks previously they passed their neighbour walking his dog during their evening stroll? Mrs Fenn was pretty sure she heard a child crying for 75 minutes on the Tuesday - yet no-one else did - and Kate said Madeleine cried on the Wednesday.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2014, 01:58:38 AM
That still doesn't mean their recollected sighting occurred on 3rd May,though, does it? How many people can recall accurately which night 2 weeks previously they passed their neighbour walking his dog during their evening stroll? Mrs Fenn was pretty sure she heard a child crying for 75 minutes on the Tuesday - yet no-one else did - and Kate said Madeleine cried on the Wednesday.
IMO they link that night directly to the flight the next morning - they say that is one of the reasons they returned to their apartment reasonably early. Also there is the payment card transaction dated 3rd at Dolphin restaurant. (But re what Mrs F heard I think that was Wed)
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: misty on September 17, 2014, 02:09:09 AM
IMO they link that night directly to the flight the next morning - they say that is one of the reasons they returned to their apartment reasonably early. Also there is the payment card transaction dated 3rd at Dolphin restaurant. (But re what Mrs F heard I think that was Wed)
Aoife said in her statement they went to Kelly's Bar whenever they ate out. In the same way the disbelievers question the Tapas group alcohol intake, can the same questions not be asked of the adult Smiths? How sharp or hazy were their memories? Martin Smith also wasn't wearing his glasses. Technically, the evidence is dependent on a 12 year old girl. I wonder how accurate their holiday timeline would prove to be - as compared to the Tapas group????
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 17, 2014, 02:15:50 AM
You've fallen for it and many others so it was a good simple disguise not to connect (also bare arms would stand out as being unusual at that time of night and Smithman didn't want to be stopped nevermind say hello) and easy to dispose.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 17, 2014, 02:37:44 AM
1. Yes I guess they have to consider the possibility the witness was mistaken. 2. Yes until they have ruled the sighting out they have to keep going on it. 3. Smiths do describe how the arms were situated.
My opinion is carrying-in-arms-through-the-streets is a ridiculous method for either an abductor or a concealer. I have read many cases of both types and this method does not feature.
Your correct I don't think an abductor would not carry a child through the streets. No other option was available in Smithman's mind - this had to be done at all costs and with all the checks going on that night and if she was found dead close to 5A who would suspicion immediately fall on? But if she was found a good distance away at the beach that paedo abductor took her there.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Luz on September 17, 2014, 01:09:22 PM
Smithman was reported as carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas but Madeleine's parents reported that she was dressed in short sleeved pyjamas when she disappeared.
According to Aoife Smith, the man she and her family encountered in Praia da Luz on the night that Madeleine McCann disappeared was carrying a child wearing long sleeved pyjamas. Aoife Smith's statement (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm#p6p1611)
The pyjamas which Madeleine wore on the night she disappeared were of the short sleeved style as per the images shown below.
Unless Aoife was mistaken, Smithman was not carrying Madeleine McCann.
(http://i.imgur.com/Caqh2FK.jpg)
Pyjamas identical to those worn by Madeleine McCann when she disappeared.
If the child was wearing the pajamas how could the parents produce the pajamas she would be wearing?!!!! That always disturbed me. Unless they bought for the baby Amalie an exact size Madeleine's pajamas.
And if so, how could Tannerman aka Crecheman by SY produced after 6 years the pajamas for his 2 year old son, totally different, and made the already discredited Tanner's sighting be excluded by SY?!!!
Something is very wrong here.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 17, 2014, 01:17:28 PM
If the child was wearing the pajamas how could the parents produce the pajamas she would be wearing?!!!! That always disturbed me. Unless they bought for the baby Amalie an exact size Madeleine's pajamas.
And if so, how could Tannerman aka Crecheman by SY produced after 6 years the pajamas for his 2 year old son, totally different, and made the already discredited Tanner's sighting be excluded by SY?!!!
Something is very wrong here.
REPORT OF NEWS OF DISAPPEARANCE
Responsible Officer: Jos?Mar? Batista Roque
OBSERVATIONS
(Collect characteristics of personal objects namely watches, rings, false teeth, etc).
On the left leg she has a small chestnut birthmark, she was wearing light coloured pyjamas (top and bottom), with a pink donkey design on the bottoms with the letters ON and she was barefoot.
It's strange the top design isn't mentioned only the pink design on the bottoms? Is there another top that matches the bottoms?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 17, 2014, 05:45:38 PM
Madeleine Was Here (7th May 2009)
Voice over: 'The most likely sighting of Madeleine was by Jane Tanner, a friend of the McCanns.' 'In the files Kate believes another witness statement from an Irish family describes a very similar sighting to Jane's.'
KM: 'There's actually quite a lot of similarities & it does beg the question, I mean how many people carry their children on a cold night not covered, y'know, nothing on their arms or their feet. no blanket.
'Now either there's been 2 people carrying children in that way, who haven't come forward to eliminate themselves or potentially they are related.'
Interviewer: But you think that child is Madeleine?
KM: I think there's a good chance it could be Madeleine, certainly the description there sounds to me like Madeleine.
Gerry : "Jane went to check on her children and it was at that point she was just passed us going up to the corner and she saw a man carrying a young girl with almo.. she described independently the pyjamas that Madeleine had on.."
The McCann's reconstruction has Smithman carrying the child in a manner which was not as described in the Smith family witness statements. Instead, it depicts him carrying the child in the manner of Bundleman, as was described by Jane Tanner, in her sighting.
(Collect characteristics of personal objects namely watches, rings, false teeth, etc).
On the left leg she has a small chestnut birthmark, she was wearing light coloured pyjamas (top and bottom), with a pink donkey design on the bottoms with the letters ON and she was barefoot.
It's strange the top design isn't mentioned only the pink design on the bottoms? Is there another top that matches the bottoms?
I'm bumping this as everyone has ignored it. First Disappearance report 4 May to what Madeleine was wearing - nothing about a pink top or sleeves? Just pink design on her bottoms. Is there a top that matches those bottoms?
On the left leg she has a small chestnut birthmark, she was wearing light coloured pyjamas (top and bottom), with a pink donkey design on the bottoms with the letters ON and she was barefoot.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: misty on September 17, 2014, 08:26:46 PM
I'm bumping this as everyone has ignored it. First Disappearance report 4 May to what Madeleine was wearing - nothing about a pink top or sleeves? Just pink design on her bottoms. Is there a top that matches those bottoms?
On the left leg she has a small chestnut birthmark, she was wearing light coloured pyjamas (top and bottom), with a pink donkey design on the bottoms with the letters ON and she was barefoot.
Bearing in mind the PJ didn't even want a photograph of Madeleine released to the media, are you really surprised that they were so economic with the details of the pyjamas?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: sadie on September 17, 2014, 08:28:56 PM
I'm bumping this as everyone has ignored it. First Disappearance report 4 May to what Madeleine was wearing - nothing about a pink top or sleeves? Just pink design on her bottoms. Is there a top that matches those bottoms?
On the left leg she has a small chestnut birthmark, she was wearing light coloured pyjamas (top and bottom), with a pink donkey design on the bottoms with the letters ON and she was barefoot.
Why is the design on the top important to us. Jane didn't see that part of her top and neither did The Smiths
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 17, 2014, 08:35:41 PM
Why is the design on the top important to us. Jane didn't see that part of her top and neither did The Smiths
What are you on about? This is the first disappearance report about what Maddy was wearing by GNR officer Jose Roque from the McCanns so they can find her. He doesn't mention any pink top with blue design in his report. Only the bottoms with a pink design. That is strange and could be very important. The Smiths may have seen a long sleeved top that matches those bottoms.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 17, 2014, 08:52:45 PM
There was a story about washing peejay's as kate mentions, something was spilled but Maddie didn't mention anything being spilled... what is the significance of this story? Why does Kate mention it as being important?
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 17, 2014, 09:04:51 PM
There was a story about washing peejay's as kate mentions, something was spilled but Maddie didn't mention anything being spilled... what is the significance of this story? Why does Kate mention it as being important?
If she was found that stain would be tested. That stain is probably the missing piece of the jigsaw the McCanns go on about.
Title: Re: Smithman was carrying a child with long sleeved pyjamas.
Post by: Brietta on September 17, 2014, 09:44:37 PM