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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Alfred R Jones on October 25, 2014, 11:16:36 PM
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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/madeleine-mccann-new-dna-hope-4508372
Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her
Oct 25, 2014 21:17 By Matthew Drake
Scotland Yard forensics want to use new techniques to analyse the curtains, which hung in the room where Madeleine was sleeping with her baby brother and sister
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PANew hope: Maddie and the room
Detectives plan to do new tests on curtains which hung in the apartment where Madeleine McCann disappeared.
They believe the fabric, which has been sealed in an evidence file since three-year-old Madeleine vanished in Portugal in 2007, may hold DNA which will identify to her abductor.
Scotland Yard sent an urgent request to their counterparts in Portugal asking permission to re-examine the fabric.
Forensic experts on the Operation Grange team want to use new techniques to analyse the curtains, which hung in the room where Madeleine was sleeping with her baby brother and sister.
VIEW GALLERY
Officers are also set to re-examine 30 strands of hair found in the apartment in the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz using advanced genetic and biological testing procedures.
A team led by Det Chief Insp Andy Redwood has asked for a quick response to the request.
They think the curtains from apartment 5A will have been preserved well enough to hold traces of DNA from Madeleine’s captor.
PAThe room from which Madeleine McCann from was seemingly snatched in Praia de Luz
Portugal’s Public Ministry will now decide if they are willing to hand over the material, which is being kept at the National Institute of Forensic Medicine in the city of Coimbra.
There have been significant new developments in DNA science since the initial investigation in 2007.
The first murder conviction using DNA evidence was in 1988, when baker Colin Pitchfork was found guilty of killing Lynda Mann and Dawn Ashworth, both 15, in Narborough, Leics.
Since then the UK has developed one of the largest “libraries” of DNA samples, which increases by more than 400,000 profiles every year.
DNA samples can be taken from body fluids, but also from tiny quantities of human cells left on any surface, from cups and cutlery to cigarette ends.
PAThe room from which Madeleine McCann from was seemingly snatched in Praia de Luz
The increase of DNA samples being taken and stored has led to a rise in convictions, especially for crimes committed a number of years ago.
The quality of DNA can now be “amplified” using complex chemical processes.
A sample of DNA can also now be extracted from a single cell and laboratory robots are being used to speed up the process.
Last week Francisco Brizida, president of the Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences, where the DNA library is held, said: “Technology now allows us to go further than years ago.”
But he said: “I wouldn’t like to be that ambitious and say the secret to unlocking the Madeleine McCann case lies in our lab.”
A Portuguese police source said: “The best hope is to pass the sample to British officers.”
Police digs in Praia da Luz and interviews with new suspects this summer ended in disappointment.
The probe run by 30
Madeleine McCann: Mystery DNA tested to locate her kidnapper
Metropolitan Police proposing DNA tests on key samples that have been stored for seven years
Convicted paedophile believed to have been in Portugal at the time of Madeleine McCann's disappearance arrested in Malta
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08 Processos Vol VIII Page 2190
3rd August 2007. 17.17 PM
Inspection by Sniffer Dog
Location: Apartment 5 A in the Ocean Club) Praia da Luz, Lagos
Participants:
1. PJ - Ricardo Paiva
2. UK Mark Harrison
3. UK Martin Grime, UK Forensic Canine P SM Expert
4. Keela - English Springer
The entire activity was filmed and recorded (sound).
On this date a new sniffer dog inspection was carried out in the apartment mentioned above, with the help of the dog Keela who detects human blood remains. The activity produced the following results:
19.19 The dog "marked" an area of tiles in the living room, next to the window and behind the sofa.
19.20 The dog "marked" the lower part of the left white coloured curtain of the window behind the sofa.
Signed.
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
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So SY want to examine the curtains for dna...more proof that they are looking for an abductor
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Maybe, but it doesn't mean that they will find one.
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Maybe, but it doesn't mean that they will find one.
but it proves they are looking for one
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Well, that's all they have ever been looking for - doesn't mean there was one.
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but it proves they are looking for one
No it doesn't. It just proves that they are examining the curtains for DNA. We have no idea why.
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No it doesn't. It just proves that they are examining the curtains for DNA. We have no idea why.
who's dna do you think they are looking for then
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It makes you wonder. There could be dozens of people's DNA on the curtains- all to be cross-checked against all those who might have been in the apartment for legitimate reasons.
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If the dna matches a known paedophile- it will be great news ,however will it be enough to convict I don't think so. The only question to ask would be: what is your DNA doing on this curtain? It does not date stamp. Therefore it cannot pin point when the DNA was deposited. Sadly.
This is the bedroom curtains we are talking about?
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If the dna matches a known paedophile- it will be great news ,however will it be enough to convict I don't think so. The only question to ask would be: what is your DNA doing on this curtain? It does not date stamp. Therefore it cannot pin point when the DNA was deposited. Sadly.
This is the bedroom curtains we are talking about?
The living room curtains were kept as evidence. Nothing about the bedroom ones but I would've thought they would be kept.
19.19 The dog "marked" an area of tiles in the living room, next to the window and behind the sofa.
19.20 The dog "marked" the lower part of the left white coloured curtain of the window behind the sofa.
Samples sent to the lab.
Between 3pm on August 4th 2007 and 6.30am on August 5th 2007, the following samples were recovered in the living room of apartment 5A at the OCEAN CLUB where a murder probably took place.
Samples 1A to 3B: recovered on the floor.
Samples 4A to 13B: recovered on the wall.
Samples 14A to 15B: recovered behind the sofa.
Sample 16A: recovered from the blue curtain.
Samples 16B: recovered from the white curtain behind the blue curtain.
All of these elements have been handed over to the Birmingham Forensic Science Services. (FSS)
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
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If the dna matches a known paedophile- it will be great news ,however will it be enough to convict I don't think so. The only question to ask would be: what is your DNA doing on this curtain? It does not date stamp. Therefore it cannot pin point when the DNA was deposited. Sadly.
This is the bedroom curtains we are talking about?
I think the Mirror has got it muddled up. There is nothing in the files that I can find about the bedroom curtains having been bagged. The curtain and netting from the living-room were kept, but I don't quite see why there would be any interest in those.
I think the hairs are of greater importance, particularly if they can now extract a nuclear DNA profile, as opposed to the rather vague mtDNA haplotyping, which doesn't actually identify anyone.
However, I agree that on it's own a DNA sample wouldn't be enough for a conviction, although it could be an important piece of the puzzle if the person had no reason to have ever been there. It could potentially lead to questioning someone who is serving time for some offence or other and who wasn't on the radar. A problem with that, however, is that the law on establishing a DNA database of convicts was only passed in 2008 and only for sentences of more than three years, so it's in its infancy.
http://www.genewatch.org/sub-566805
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I think the Mirror has got it muddled up. There is nothing in the files that I can find about the bedroom curtains having been bagged. The curtain and netting from the living-room were kept, but I don't quite see why there would be any interest in those.
I think the hairs are of greater importance, particularly if they can now extract a nuclear DNA profile, as opposed to the rather vague mtDNA haplotyping, which doesn't actually identify anyone.
However, I agree that on it's own a DNA sample wouldn't be enough for a conviction, although it could be an important piece of the puzzle if the person had no reason to have ever been there. It could potentially lead to questioning someone who is serving time for some offence or other and who wasn't on the radar. A problem with that, however, is that the law on establishing a DNA database of convicts was only passed in 2008 and only for sentences of more than three years, so it's in its infancy.
http://www.genewatch.org/sub-566805
DNA matches can be valuable, but the right context is needed.
You cannot simply match a DNA profile to someone known and say he/shedunit!
BUT, if you can identify a DNA match to someone tied by independent evidence close to the crime scene at just about the time the crime is known to have been committed, you drastically reduce the population sample, and then you have something much more substantial ...
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An abductor would have had no need to touch the curtains that were wedged tightly behind the sofa however if DNA was found that did match Madeleine's, and the police believe Madeleine died in the apartment, her parents would certainly have some explaining to do.
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An abductor would have had no need to touch the curtains that were wedged tightly behind the sofa however if DNA was found that did match Madeleine's, and the police believe Madeleine died in the apartment, her parents would certainly have some explaining to do.
Why should Madeleine's dna on the curtains have any significance...it wouldn't. All the families dna would likely be all around the apartment. It is strangers dna that would be significant...particularly the suspects they have interviewed
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Why should Madeleine's dna on the curtains have any significance...it wouldn't. All the families dna would likely be all around the apartment. It is strangers dna that would be significant...particularly the suspects they have interviewed
Indeed.
Even Amaral understood that ...
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gets worse......probably testing peoples intelligence
They believe he may have touched them as he took threeyear- old Madeleine from her bed at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz and climbed out of the window with her.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/527877/Madeleine-McCann-police-probe-curtains-for-DNA-clues
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gets worse......probably testing peoples intelligence
They believe he may have touched them as he took threeyear- old Madeleine from her bed at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz and climbed out of the window with her.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/527877/Madeleine-McCann-police-probe-curtains-for-DNA-clues
It seems the curtains may be from the living room rather the bedroom.
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gets worse......probably testing peoples intelligence
They believe he may have touched them as he took threeyear- old Madeleine from her bed at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz and climbed out of the window with her.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/527877/Madeleine-McCann-police-probe-curtains-for-DNA-clues
Well we do know who's D.N.A. will be on the curtains. 8()-000(
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or ........IMO....the thing that they could be looking for is a bodily fluid ....in such a quantity that a sample can be extracted that has not faded after 7 years.
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Well we do know who's D.N.A. will be on the curtains. 8()-000(
Look on the bright side it will allow people to bang on about Low Copy Numbers and nucleotides as though they know what they are talking about.
I bet the Google server is running hot already 8(>((
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The person had to touch both curtains, in the bedroom and in the front room. Let's hope they left something and also that SY know whose DNA they want to match it with.
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I wonder how often the curtains were changed and cleaned?
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An abductor would have had no need to touch the curtains that were wedged tightly behind the sofa however if DNA was found that did match Madeleine's, and the police believe Madeleine died in the apartment, her parents would certainly have some explaining to do.
You are presuming things Faith.
Just cos the curtains were wedged behind the settee at the time of a photograph, doesn't mean that they were before the search. That room was closely overlooked by the balconies of the block opposite. Are you saying that Kate and Gerry never drew them for privacy after dark?
It is a nonsense to presume that those curtains were normally trapped, quite frankly
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Look on the bright side it will allow people to bang on about Low Copy Numbers and nucleotides as though they know what they are talking about.
I bet the Google server is running hot already 8(>((
Oh don't you worry none Alice... we are too stupid i.e - less intelligent - according to the 'day dream believers' we wouldn't understand it all anyway. All them big words and stuff.
Wait,wait,wait, hang on... What curtains????? Bedroom Or Lounge or Both?
OK. If it was the bedroom curtains there should be DNA from the family and maybe other previous guests. If a paedos DNA is found then great!!! We have motive,opportunity, and evidence of their presence- which they would be unable to explain.. would be tricky mind.
IF it is the lounge curtains then not so good. The 'abductor' who made a key, and stole a key, and had access to open doors, jemmied a bedroom window but went out the front window?...Yawn...
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Madeleine mystery: British police “lift the curtains”
http://portugalresident.com/madeleine-mystery-british-police-%E2%80%9Clift-the-curtains%E2%80%9D
New revelations in the media over the weekend point to British police now pinning their hopes on curtains from the bedroom from which Madeleine McCann went missing seven years ago.
Describing the story as a “breakthrough”, British tabloid the Daily Mirror claims detectives believe the fabric “may hold DNA” which will identify Madeleine’s abductor.
The Mirror says Scotland Yard hopes to run new tests on the curtains, using techniques not available when the little girl first disappeared.
The team, headed by DCI Andy Redwood, is urgently waiting for the green-light from Portugal’s public ministry, as the curtains - says the Mirror - have been kept “sealed in an evidence file” since 2007.
This latest story follows a rash of new reports over the last couple of weeks, the first of which praised the incoming new prosecutor Inês Faria Sequeira for being a “high-flyer” “utterly determined” to finally crack the mystery.
Nonetheless, ‘cracks’ have appeared in British news stories before - and this may well be yet another incident of this kind of reporting.
In Portugal, for example, national tabloid Correio da Manhã writes that the curtains have already been “exhaustively” analysed by Portuguese experts, and revealed nothing.
In their story on Monday, entitled "British want to lift the curtain", CM confirms that British police believe the curtains may still hold traces of suspect DNA.
But elsewhere, websites dedicated to the analysis of police files claim the curtains were never collected, tested or indeed even kept.
Thus it remains to be seen whether this is simply another story to join the long line of apparent "Madeleine mystery non-sequiturs".
Certainly, the British press is buzzing this morning, with the Daily Express following the Mirror and affirming that the curtains “might provide vital clues”.
Also on the list of evidence held in Portugal which British police would like re-examined are 30 strands of hair originally taken from the McCanns’ rented Ocean Club apartment in Praia da Luz.
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New revelations in the media over the weekend point to British police now pinning their hopes on curtains from the bedroom from which Madeleine McCann went missing seven years a
Oh sweet baby Jesus, 7 years later and 10+ million pounds spent and SY are pinning their hopes on a set of curtains ??
If it wasn't so serious it would be almost funny !!
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The police have said nothing, of course. It will all be down to some 'helpful' source.
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The police have said nothing, of course. It will all be down to some 'helpful' source.
That would almost be certainly some 'helpful' source close to or within the SY investigation, jeez they're leaking like a sieve !!
Now where did I hear that before &%+((£
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With the advances in forensic techniques which have taken place since 2007 we have seen an increase in cold cases being reopened and charges being brought against suspects when evidence which has been stored appropriately has been retested.
NSY are carrying out the proper diligences we would expect of a professional law enforcement agency … curtains?? … mibbee so … unidentified hairs from someone’s head?? … mibbee so.
But isn’t it great there is a real commitment to finding out exactly what happened to Madeleine McCann, which is the object of the whole exercise.
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These are invariably cases where the DNA has been compared against the ginormous UK DNA database.
May not work quite so well when dealing with those not on that database.
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Oh sweet baby Jesus, 7 years later and 10+ million pounds spent and SY are pinning their hopes on a set of curtains ??
If it wasn't so serious it would be almost funny !!
I haven't found any independent corroborating source for this latest factoid. And tabloids copying each other don't count.
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These are invariably cases where the DNA has been compared against the ginormous UK DNA database.
May not work quite so well when dealing with those not on that database.
Not in Portugal for the moment, I wouldn't have thought - the law authorising a DNA database of convicted criminals (sentenced for more than 3 years) was only passed in 2008. It's not clear if this means first instance convictions or whether "convictions" have to have passed through a decade of the appeals process. If the latter is the case, I suspect the database may well be nearly empty.
On the other hand, if any DNA led to someone in a UK database, that might indeed be a breakthrough.
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With the advances in forensic techniques which have taken place since 2007 we have seen an increase in cold cases being reopened and charges being brought against suspects when evidence which has been stored appropriately has been retested.
NSY are carrying out the proper diligences we would expect of a professional law enforcement agency … curtains?? … mibbee so … unidentified hairs from someone’s head?? … mibbee so.
But isn’t it great there is a real commitment to finding out exactly what happened to Madeleine McCann, which is the object of the whole exercise.
It certainly is. There are of course three ways of looking at this. What might be called The Sherlock Holmes Principle "When one has eliminated the impossible what remains however improbable is the truth", The Donald Rumsfeld Principle " because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns" and The Slavoj Zizek Principle "the unknown known i.e that which we intentionally refuse to acknowledge that we know"
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Not in Portugal for the moment, I wouldn't have thought - the law authorising a DNA database of convicted criminals (sentenced for more than 3 years) was only passed in 2008. It's not clear if this means first instance convictions or whether "convictions" have to have passed through a decade of the appeals process. If the latter is the case, I suspect the database may well be nearly empty.
On the other hand, if any DNA led to someone in a UK database, that might indeed be a breakthrough.
There is obviously a big difference if they only use DNA from convicted. criminals, whereas we use it from anyone who has been arrested, however flimsy the circumstances.
Sorry, I messed up the original post, due to cutting & pasting.
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There is obviously a big difference if they only use DNA from however flimsy the circumstances. criminals, whereas we use it from anyone who has been arrested, however flimsy the circumstances.
PT legislation is more complicated. I posted a link or two further up somewhere.
Here's one:
http://www.genewatch.org/sub-566805
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It certainly is. There are of course three ways of looking at this. What might be called The Sherlock Holmes Principle "When one has eliminated the impossible what remains however improbable is the truth", The Donald Rumsfeld Principle " because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns" and The Slavoj Zizek Principle "the unknown known i.e that which we intentionally refuse to acknowledge that we know"
I find that quite witty, even though I expect we could argue as to who we have in mind regarding the last one. ;)
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Can we have some examples of these cases which "we have seen" please !
Try googling * "cold case" DNA conviction *. There are loads of them.
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With the advances in forensic techniques which have taken place since 2007 we have seen an increase in cold cases being reopened and charges being brought against suspects when evidence which has been stored appropriately has been retested.
NSY are carrying out the proper diligences we would expect of a professional law enforcement agency … curtains?? … mibbee so … unidentified hairs from someone’s head?? … mibbee so.
But isn’t it great there is a real commitment to finding out exactly what happened to Madeleine McCann, which is the object of the whole exercise.
Stephen Lawrence ...
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Can we have some examples of these cases which "we have seen" please !
At the moment there is a trial on-going in Edinburgh billed as THE WORLD'S END MURDER TRIAL using DNA from 1977.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/crime/worlds-end-murder-trial-clothing-4518019
A former soldier has been convicted of murdering 16-year-old Elaine Doyle in Greenock in 1986.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-27886592
There have also been cases where criminals have been apprehended when Familial DNA has turned up trumps. http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-rights/familial-dna-searches.html
So for the first time in over seven years the perpetrators of whatever crimes were involved in Madeleine's disappearance might be feeling a bit hot under the collar.
If you and others do not find that a source for satisfaction ... I sure do.
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I find that quite witty, even though I expect we could argue as to who we have in mind regarding the last one. ;)
I didn't have anyone in mind oddly enough 8(>((
I just thought the whole thing applicable to this case in a global sense but I thought the Zizek quote in particular was apposite.
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At the moment there is a trial on-going in Edinburgh billed as THE WORLD'S END MURDER TRIAL using DNA from 1977.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/crime/worlds-end-murder-trial-clothing-4518019
A former soldier has been convicted of murdering 16-year-old Elaine Doyle in Greenock in 1986.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-27886592
There have also been cases where criminals have been apprehended when Familial DNA has turned up trumps. http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-rights/familial-dna-searches.html
So for the first time in over seven years the perpetrators of whatever crimes were involved in Madeleine's disappearance might be feeling a bit hot under the collar.
If you and others do not find that a source for satisfaction ... I sure do.
Only if the relevant DNA exists on a database.
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It certainly is. There are of course three ways of looking at this. What might be called The Sherlock Holmes Principle "When one has eliminated the impossible what remains however improbable is the truth", The Donald Rumsfeld Principle " because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns" and The Slavoj Zizek Principle "the unknown known i.e that which we intentionally refuse to acknowledge that we know"
How esoteric and how inscrutable … however … if it keeps you happy … who am I …
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How esoteric and how inscrutable … however … if it keeps you happy … who am I …
Exactly @)(++(*
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"But elsewhere, websites dedicated to the analysis of police files claim the curtains were never collected, tested or indeed even kept."
Who wrote that article in the Portugal Resident... and which sites were they consulting? Why didn't the journalist check the files for him/herself?
The living-room curtains were most definitely sent for analysis and the FSS found absolutely nothing of significance.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
Lowe report:
286A/2007-CRL 16 & 16B Two blue curtains and one white curtain
286B/2007-CRL 1 One white section of a curtain
These curtains were analysed for traces of blood, semen and saliva, none of which were detected. The hem of one of the blue curtains (16) was swabbed to collect any cellular material that might exist. An incomplete, inconclusive DNA result consisting only of two unconfirmed DNA components was obtained. In my opinion the result is not adequate for comparison purposes. The sample was submitted for LCN analysis.
An incomplete, low-level DNA result, comprising only some DNA components, was obtained through LCN from the cellular material recovered from the hem of one the curtains. In my opinion, this result contained information too meagre to permit a meaningful interpretation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
However, I have found no trace whatsoever that the bedroom curtains were ever bagged, let alone analysed.
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Only if the relevant DNA exists on a database.
Uh Hu ... and if there is a previously unidentified hair in store ... and there is a suspect whose hair is a DNA match?
There was no DNA database involved in either the World's End Murder trial ... nor in the Elaine Doyle Murder trial.
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Uh Hu ... and if there is a previously unidentified hair in store ... and there is a suspect whose hair is a DNA match?
There was no DNA database involved in either the World's End Murder trial ... nor in the Elaine Doyle Murder trial.
Then that DNA will be on a database.
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"But elsewhere, websites dedicated to the analysis of police files claim the curtains were never collected, tested or indeed even kept."
Who wrote that article in the Portugal Resident... and which sites were they consulting? Why didn't the journalist check the files for him/herself?
The living-room curtains were most definitely sent for analysis and the FSS found absolutely nothing of significance.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
Lowe report:
286A/2007-CRL 16 & 16B Two blue curtains and one white curtain
286B/2007-CRL 1 One white section of a curtain
These curtains were analysed for traces of blood, semen and saliva, none of which were detected. The hem of one of the blue curtains (16) was swabbed to collect any cellular material that might exist. An incomplete, inconclusive DNA result consisting only of two unconfirmed DNA components was obtained. In my opinion the result is not adequate for comparison purposes. The sample was submitted for LCN analysis.
An incomplete, low-level DNA result, comprising only some DNA components, was obtained through LCN from the cellular material recovered from the hem of one the curtains. In my opinion, this result contained information too meagre to permit a meaningful interpretation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
However, I have found no trace whatsoever that the bedroom curtains were ever bagged, let alone analysed.
Of course the curtains were sent because Keela alerted to them.
Ooops ....
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Only if the relevant DNA exists on a database.
It would be perhaps faster to trace if a suspect's DNA is already on a database, but that's not the only possibility. Suspects or even a broad range of people known to have been in the vicinity of a crime can be requested (or ordered) to provide a mouth swab for DNA.
That said, even a DNA match doesn't necessarily link an individual to a crime. There could be lots of innocent reasons for someone's DNA being in 5A...
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How esoteric and how inscrutable … however … if it keeps you happy … who am I …
Esoteric possibly but inscrutable definitely not. Perfectly "scrutable" in my 'umble opinion Master Copperfield.
When NSY have eliminated all that which is impossible a la SH and gone through Rumsfeld's principle and have come to terms with anything they don't like as Zizek quotes it will be interesting to see who is last man* standing as it were. It is to be hoped The Met will be that diligent.
* man in the global sense rather than any specific man.
I do so find these little footnotes help to stop debate about what hasn't been said don't you?
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It would be perhaps faster to trace if a suspect's DNA is already on a database, but that's not the only possibility. Suspects or even a broad range of people known to have been in the vicinity of a crime can be requested (or ordered) to provide a mouth swab for DNA.
That said, even a DNA match doesn't necessarily link an individual to a crime. There could be lots of innocent reasons for someone's DNA being in 5A...
True. You would expect to find DNA of cleaners, for example.
You would also need to rule out other (legitimate) visitors to the apartment.
But if you could tie DNA to a suspect established as in the vicinity at the time, that would be quite something ...
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It would be perhaps faster to trace if a suspect's DNA is already on a database, but that's not the only possibility. Suspects or even a broad range of people known to have been in the vicinity of a crime can be requested (or ordered) to provide a mouth swab for DNA.
That said, even a DNA match doesn't necessarily link an individual to a crime. There could be lots of innocent reasons for someone's DNA being in 5A...
Would that be true in Portugal, I wonder?
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Of course the curtains were sent because Keela alerted to them.
Ooops ....
Yes, items from the initial sweep went to the PT lab (hairs and a bit of the bedcover of the bed near the window); the majority of items / swabs subsequently collected and sent for analysis were where Keela alerted (but that was 3 months after the fact and several rentals later).
I've found nothing to suggest that the curtains of the bedroom were bagged (nor the bed linen...).
The only hope seems to be in the hairs.
Out of the 100+ found in the presumed potential passageways, only 1 could be positively matched by nuclear DNA... the others didn't have sufficient material. If technology has moved on since then and nuclear DNA can be extracted from hair shafts (and I've read conflicting reports on that), then retesting them might provide more information.
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One has to hope that this isn't the material that was reported to be lost or destroyed.
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Would that be true in Portugal, I wonder?
Voluntary swabs have been taken in this case in Portugal, but I'm not sure how it works if someone chooses not to. I haven't delved into that yet.
Until less than a decade ago, fingerprints seemed to be the main ID trace for suspects in some countries. DNA is a sensitive topic and hasn't been easy to legislate. Until there was legislation, there was no point in having a database.
I can remember one case in the UK in which people were invited to give mouth swabs (although the details of the case escape me for the moment) and at least one recent one in France. I think that there was also an older case, although I'm no longer sure of the details of that one.
The recent one in France was a rape case, so they had the DNA of the creep to compare it to.
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One has to hope that this isn't the material that was reported to be lost or destroyed.
What are you referring to? Amaral's remark on a TV show that the hairs from the Scenic had probably all been destroyed? They weren't. If he'd checked the files, he might have noticed that there was a receipt slip signed by one of his own officers.
The hairs from 5A went to the PT lab (May). The hair fragments from the Scenic went to the FSS (August) and were returned to PT.
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Amaral said the hairs are in Portugal.
hair was also found. Hair which the laboratory says, from its coloration, which is how this used to be done in the old days, by comparing the coloration, if it belonged to the person or not. Nowadays it is possible to perform, and then it was already possible, to perform DNA tests on hair. Some say it’s only possible to identify the DNA profile with the root of the hair, the English lab says it’s not possible because these have no root, therefore they don’t perform the test. That hair is in Portugal, it was returned to Portugal. They are next to the process. It’s simple: the Public Ministry, that has the investigation, should take that hair and send it to a lab in Europe or elsewhere, where that type of test is done, without the need for the root of the hair.”
Q: That was never done?
“That was never done. It was never done and what is said is that there may have been a contamination. But we end up not knowing whether that hair belongs to Madeleine McCann or not. That’s another doubt to discuss, to clarify. Now, there cannot be a piece of evidence while we’re here talking about the man who died under the tractor and quit his job a month before because there was 5 euro missing –“
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Of course the curtains were sent because Keela alerted to them.
Ooops ....
Please tell me you are joking ferryman
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Please tell me you are joking ferryman
It's no joke Sadie.
19.19 The dog "marked" an area of tiles in the living room, next to the window and behind the sofa.
19.20 The dog "marked" the lower part of the left white coloured curtain of the window behind the sofa.
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Amaral said the hairs are in Portugal.
hair was also found. Hair which the laboratory says, from its coloration, which is how this used to be done in the old days, by comparing the coloration, if it belonged to the person or not. Nowadays it is possible to perform, and then it was already possible, to perform DNA tests on hair. Some say it’s only possible to identify the DNA profile with the root of the hair, the English lab says it’s not possible because these have no root, therefore they don’t perform the test. That hair is in Portugal, it was returned to Portugal. They are next to the process. It’s simple: the Public Ministry, that has the investigation, should take that hair and send it to a lab in Europe or elsewhere, where that type of test is done, without the need for the root of the hair.”
Q: That was never done?
“That was never done. It was never done and what is said is that there may have been a contamination. But we end up not knowing whether that hair belongs to Madeleine McCann or not. That’s another doubt to discuss, to clarify. Now, there cannot be a piece of evidence while we’re here talking about the man who died under the tractor and quit his job a month before because there was 5 euro missing –“
That's not what he originally said in a TV show. ;)
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Ok thanks didn't know that.
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That's not what he originally said in a TV show. ;)
You have no idea how funny that is!
The McCanns on "Oprah"
DCI Redwood on "Crimewatch"
Dr Amaral on TV Whatever
And our arguments/debates are based on who said what on the telly.....oh stop it CD.
It is Roger Mellie's fault 8(0(*
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It's no joke Sadie.
19.19 The dog "marked" an area of tiles in the living room, next to the window and behind the sofa.
19.20 The dog "marked" the lower part of the left white coloured curtain of the window behind the sofa.
It is a joke because keela marked not Eddie. Therefore there is no cadavar odour, just blood which presumably can be seen with the naked eye.
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You have no idea how funny that is!
The McCanns on "Oprah"
DCI Redwood on "Crimewatch"
Dr Amaral on TV Whatever
And our arguments/debates are based on who said what on the telly.....oh stop it CD.
It is Roger Mellie's fault 8(0(*
Pathfinder was quoting a relatively recent interview with Amaral.
However, during the phase of his book promo tour, Amaral had earlier said something quite different.
DL: In the Madeleine McCann case, who made the decision to send the analyses to Birmingham, to the FSS? In Portugal there is the National Institute [Forensic Medicine].
GA: This is the question. At that point in time, we were already feeling the pressure of the British media, we felt incompetent, that was what they said, and anything that we might do, would be questioned. It was a political decision by the PJ, but which was understandable at that point in time and it is still understandable now because it was a way of compromising, an attempt to compromise a British institution with the results that were to be found. If you ask me now if I would do the same today, I don’t think I would. Maybe there would be another laboratory, or at least, I wouldn’t have sent all the samples to that laboratory. But I can also tell you that at the IML, the Institute for Forensics Medicine, there was not the full capacity to carry out all of these tests, namely the low copy number analyses. Only in England, at this laboratory or at other laboratories outside of the country. We could have chosen another laboratory, but we opted for this one. It was a disaster. The decision was not disastrous; it was the tests that were disastrous to say the least.
DL: But do those samples still exist?
GA: No. They have all been destroyed. From the hair samples, it’s all been destroyed. There is a situation that is reported that is the following: there are several hairs, lots of hair is found in the car boot, in the car that was rented 23 days later, a comparison is made in terms of colour and colouration where they say yes indeed, these could be from the little girl, but then the laboratory says that they don’t manage, it doesn’t have any roots, they cannot define the DNA, they cannot define whether it’s from a living or a dead person, and when a team of Portuguese investigators go to the lab, accompanied by a Portuguese scientist, Dr. Francisco Corte Real, they ask for that hair, they went as far as holding that hair in their hands. And they had that hair, duly stored, that package with the hair, but then a report from the FSS appears in which they realize that they’d better keep them, and that later on they destroyed them in an attempt to define the DNA, or to discover whether it was from a living person or not, and they destroyed all of that hair. In Portugal they were also destroyed. It’s a bit hard to understand how in order to define the DNA, or to carry out another test, such a quantity of hair has to be used, like there existed in Portugal as well, and then it wasn’t possible to perform analyses of other types, namely the possibility of sedatives that the little girl might have ingested or was forced to ingest.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/02/exclusive-interview-to-former-pj.html
The hairs from the Scenic were returned with a receipt slip signed by Inspector Viegas. I've no idea what happened to the curtain material sent to FSS - I haven't seen a receipt slip for that.
I've no idea where the hairs from 5A are - I presume that they have been kept somewhere in PT.
IMO, those are the important items to analyse. They are from just after the disappearance and haven't been able to be identified.
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Esoteric possibly but inscrutable definitely not. Perfectly "scrutable" in my 'umble opinion Master Copperfield.
When NSY have eliminated all that which is impossible a la SH and gone through Rumsfeld's principle and have come to terms with anything they don't like as Zizek quotes it will be interesting to see who is last man* standing as it were. It is to be hoped The Met will be that diligent.
* man in the global sense rather than any specific man.
I do so find these little footnotes help to stop debate about what hasn't been said don't you?
Perhaps I did not make myself clear; when I chose to say 'inscrutable' it was to illustrate your post was totally unfathomable to me ... not having been blessed with a superior intellect such as yours.
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It is a joke because keela marked not Eddie. Therefore there is no cadavar odour, just blood which presumably can be seen with the naked eye.
Yeah it was Keela but who's blood?
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Yeah it was Keela but who's blood?
Obviously whose blood, but probably the bloodstains showed with out keela. Certainly no cadavar odour there
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28/10/2014 15:24
Maddie: 444 by DNA was subjected to analysis
In 2007, the partial 25 samples of blood and saliva tests were performed.
By Rui Gomes Pando
Experts from the National Institute of Legal Medicine (INML) analyzed the 444 that were collected by the Judicial Police in following the disappearance of Madeleine McCann months in 2007, in Praia da Luz, Lagos. When the CM was found, were still subject to forensic testing 25 samples of blood and saliva and three other traces found in the room from where the child disappeared and the boot of a car. These are some traces that Scotland Yard now wants to bring England to analyze again, a British private laboratory.
English as the CM reported yesterday, still want to re-do tests to a curtained room where Maddie slept, which was targeted by the skill INML in 2007, and where nothing relevant was found. The collection of the remains was made in homes, cars and sofas by experts of the Laboratory of Forensic Science of PJ. Among the remnants are still samples of hair and saliva of several people who were deemed relevant to the investigation. In the list of the 444 subject to testing, are 432 human and 12 nonhuman, 98 had no correspondence with any DNA profile and 19 partial results were obtained. The request for a review will be part of the remains of a 6th letter rogatory. This despite the new prosecutor for the Public Ministry of Portimão, Agnes Sequeira, the decision does not already exist for the 5th letter, sent by the British to Portugal.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/adn_de_444_pelos_foi_alvo_de_analise.html
(http://cdn.cmjornal.xl.pt/2014-10/img_757x426$2014_10_27_23_30_01_414144.jpg)
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Yeah it was Keela but who's blood?
Ask Keela. No blood was found. Assuming she's accurate, it could have been a pricked finger hanging up a curtain years previously.
Her speciality is no doubt invaluable if it leads to forensic evidence that can be related to a case. In this instance, it didn't.
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So the police want to look at the blood and saliva samples from the apartment 5A and the boot of a car according to Correio da Manhã. AFAIK, the police only took samples from the McCanns' hire car. Very interesting!
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Voluntary swabs have been taken in this case in Portugal, but I'm not sure how it works if someone chooses not to. I haven't delved into that yet.
Until less than a decade ago, fingerprints seemed to be the main ID trace for suspects in some countries. DNA is a sensitive topic and hasn't been easy to legislate. Until there was legislation, there was no point in having a database.
I can remember one case in the UK in which people were invited to give mouth swabs (although the details of the case escape me for the moment) and at least one recent one in France. I think that there was also an older case, although I'm no longer sure of the details of that one.
The recent one in France was a rape case, so they had the DNA of the creep to compare it to.
I don't know where you obtained your information but as, AFAIK, voluntary swabs are not accepted in Portugal. DNA testing can only be done through a court order.
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I don't know where you obtained your information but as, AFAIK, voluntary swabs are not accepted in Portugal. DNA testing can only be done through a court order.
Ii think you will find that many voluntary swabs have already been taken ....
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Ii think you will find that many voluntary swabs have already been taken ....
Whether they did or not, the DNA swabs wouldn't be valid because the obtaining of DNA must be approved by a judge. Even for paternity cases, the DNA must be requested by a judge, it cannot be done voluntarily between two parties and then given to some laboratory.
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I don't know where you obtained your information but as, AFAIK, voluntary swabs are not accepted in Portugal. DNA testing can only be done through a court order.
I haven't checked the correspondence between the PJ and the magistrate on this, but my point was that the PJ made everyone they wanted a swab from sign a consent form - and so in that sense, it was voluntary.
Here's one at random:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P7/07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1714.jpg
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IIRC, from Portuguese media reports, SY requested DNA samples from "suspects" and this was denied by the judge. With this refusal by the judge, SY allegedly wanted to obtain DNA by underhanded methods without the knowledge or consent of the persons involved which is manifestly illegal here in Portugal.
I did read about an investigation of a gang member in Porto. The judge of the criminal court authorised taking the sample from the suspect who then refused to give it. After his refusal, another court authorised the obtaining of the DNA sample by "force", that is from a cigarette or a piece of chewing gum, etc. The point I'm making is that the obtaining of the DNA must first be authorised by a judge and then the person signs a consent form.
BTW, regarding this case of the gang member, Marinho Pinto, in the newspaper article, argued that making someone give their DNA against their will could be considered self incriminating, thus against the constitution.
If, as davel, has stated, people having given their DNA samples voluntarily, I suppose that these persons have nothing to hide or fear.
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IIRC, from Portuguese media reports, SY requested DNA samples from "suspects" and this was denied by the judge. With this refusal, SY wanted to obtain DNA by underhanded methods without the knowledge or consent of the persons involved which is manifestly illegal here in Portugal.
Yeah, that sounds like SY.
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IIRC, from Portuguese media reports, SY requested DNA samples from "suspects" and this was denied by the judge. With this refusal, SY wanted to obtain DNA by underhanded methods without the knowledge or consent of the persons involved which is manifestly illegal here in Portugal.
According to whom?
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According to whom?
Please reread my modified post. I added "allegedly" as this came from the Portuguese press but I would like to add from someone who has very good sources.
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So the police want to look at the blood and saliva samples from the apartment 5A and the boot of a car according to Correio da Manhã. AFAIK, the police only took samples from the McCanns' hire car. Very interesting!
That's not my understanding of that article (misleading though it is).
Not sure where to start on that.
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That's not my understanding of that article (misleading though it is).
Not sure where to start on that.
Very poor translation of the article. Anyway, how can SY ask for retesting on the bedroom curtains when no forensic testing was ever done on these curtains AFAIK.
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Perhaps I did not make myself clear; when I chose to say 'inscrutable' it was to illustrate your post was totally unfathomable to me ... not having been blessed with a superior intellect such as yours.
I believe Carana understood the point from his/her posted reply.
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Very poor translation of the article. Anyway, how can SY ask for retesting on the bedroom curtains when no forensic testing was ever done on these curtains AFAIK.
There is nothing in the files to say that the bedroom curtains were ever bagged in the first place, let alone tested by the INML.
I have no idea where this "25 samples of blood and saliva" idea came from with the misleading phrasing that they came from 5A and the car... unless...
5- Total of the samples studied:
Since May 2007, the following samples were analysed in the GENETIC AND BIOLOGICAL FORENSIC SERVICES offices of the North, Central e South Delegations of the Instituto Nacional of Medicina Legal:
- 25 reference samples.
- 447 vestigios, comprising:
>> 444 hairs, of which 432 were human;
>> 1 mark on a counterpane;
>> 2 objects from a car boot.
Of the 432 human hairs (roots and/or stems), 315 provided the results reflected in Table 2.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
That was the TOTALITY of the samples from the investigation submitted to the INML, not just from 5A and the Scenic. It includes all the hairs sent in, a few blood traces found in Burgau, on a wall in PdL and possibly elsewhere.
There never was any forensically verified blood in 5A, nor in the Scenic.
If that extract is what the journo is basing his scoop on, has the journo assumed that 25 REFERENCE samples from mouth swabs are somehow suspicious? PT destroys samples once the profile has been established... so there's nothing left to retest anyway.
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Groundhog day...
The Express is now repeating CdaM.
They met with the bosses of Portugal’s Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences in Coimbra, two hours drive north of Lisbon, where most of the material, also said to include 25 blood and saliva samples, is held.
Aside from the possible inclusion of what is assumed to be Madeleine's heel-prick blood sample (analysed in the UK), saliva-related reference samples would be the mouth swabs.
The only saliva sample from 5A was from the previous occupants' baby boy. And that wasn't a reference sample as it took ages to even establish who that DNA result corresponded to. And that "stain" is listed separately, so it's not part of the "25".
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Groundhog day...
The Express is now repeating CdaM.
They met with the bosses of Portugal’s Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences in Coimbra, two hours drive north of Lisbon, where most of the material, also said to include 25 blood and saliva samples, is held.
Aside from the possible inclusion of what is assumed to be Madeleine's heel-prick blood sample (analysed in the UK), saliva-related reference samples would be the mouth swabs.
The only saliva sample from 5A was from the previous occupants' baby boy. And that wasn't a reference sample as it took ages to even establish who that DNA result corresponded to. And that "stain" is listed separately, so it's not part of the "25".
What do you expect from MSM these days. It's all copy and paste. The Portuguese papers copy the British press and vice versa.
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What do you expect from MSM these days. It's all copy and paste. The Portuguese papers copy the British press and vice versa.
I agree, but even you appear to have been taken in by that CdaM article for a while.
You'd said:
So the police want to look at the blood and saliva samples from the apartment 5A and the boot of a car according to Correio da Manhã. AFAIK, the police only took samples from the McCanns' hire car. Very interesting!
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5498.msg196282#msg196282
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Groundhog day...
The Express is now repeating CdaM.
They met with the bosses of Portugal’s Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences in Coimbra, two hours drive north of Lisbon, where most of the material, also said to include 25 blood and saliva samples, is held.
Aside from the possible inclusion of what is assumed to be Madeleine's heel-prick blood sample (analysed in the UK), saliva-related reference samples would be the mouth swabs.
The only saliva sample from 5A was from the previous occupants' baby boy. And that wasn't a reference sample as it took ages to even establish who that DNA result corresponded to. And that "stain" is listed separately, so it's not part of the "25".
Groundhog day indeed.
I think it would be sensible not to rely on sources such as Correio da Manha for information … might be an idea to wait for official notification about what is going on … it avoids headlines such as the 100% DNA.
>>snip<<
Portuguese forensic experts analysed 444 hair strands they believed could hold the key to the three-year-old disappearance in May 2007.
They found 432 were human and 12 non-human. They were unable to DNA-match 98 of them and only obtained partial results from 19 of them, the Portuguese daily newspaper Correio da Manha reported.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/hair-strands-during-original-madeleine-mccann-investigation-never-dnamatched-9825210.html
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wasn't it that the markers found in Britain 15 would have been enough....but not in Portugal....
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/528865/Madeleine-McCann-human-hairs-hunt-Portugal
Madeleine McCann: Untested human hairs provide new hope in police hunt for DNA clues
BRITISH detectives probing the Madeleine McCann disappearance in Portugal want to retest hairs after it was found previous DNA tests carried out during the original investigation were incomplete.
Madeleine McCann who went missing in 2007Police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann want to DNA test hairs[AP]
Nearly 100 strands of hair tested during the original Madeleine McCann investigation were never DNA-matched, it emerged today.
Portuguese forensic experts analysed 444 hair strands they believed could hold the key to the youngster’s May 3 2007 disappearance.
They found 432 were human and 12 non-human. They were unable to DNA-match 98 of them and only obtained partial results from 19 of them, Portuguese daily Correio da Manha reported.
MADELEINE MCCANN: THE SEARCH CONTINUES
British detectives probing Madeleine McCann’s disappearance want to retest some of the hairs as well as curtains hanging in the Algarve apartment where she vanished.
Scotland Yard are expected to apply for permission in a sixth international letter of request to take the samples from a Portuguese lab so experts can look at them in the UK.
The fifth letter, understood to contain a request to reinterview three new suspects quizzed in the summer, has yet to be answered by new Madeleine McCann prosecutor Ines Sequeira.
Related articles
Maddie breakthrough: Curtains may hold DNA clue in hunt for Madeleine McCann
Hope for Maddie? The 3 women who could solve riddle of Madeleine McCann's disappearance
Has Madeleine McCann finally been found in Spain? Police investigate new sighting
A Met Police team led by DCI Andy Redwood announced their wish to look again at forensic material collected in the early days of the Madeleine McCann investigation during a visit to the university town of Coimbra earlier this month.
They met with the bosses of Portugal’s Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences in Coimbra, two hours drive north of Lisbon, where most of the material, also said to include 25 blood and saliva samples, is held.
Institute president Francisco Brizida, said afterwards: “I have the certainty they went away very happy.”
“The tonic of the meeting was about the possibility of the tests on samples collected in 2007 being re-done.
“The British police wanted clarification on the examinations the institute had carried out during the early stages of the inquiry in the areas of genetics and biology.
“We talked about non-identified material that was collected in Madeleine’s apartment.
“I can’t say for sure new DNA tests that didn’t yield a conclusive result in 2007 could now yield an objective result.
“But technology nowadays allows us to go further than years ago in areas like genetic markers.
“Several possibilities are open. One could be that British police do the tests in Britain with British technology and another that the institute does them.
“But that’s an area in which the institute does not have the last word. There’s a situation of judicial cooperation and a new international letter of request would be necessary.
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Please reread my modified post. I added "allegedly" as this came from the Portuguese press but I would like to add from someone who has very good sources.
Where was this article written and who wrote it?
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They can test without root now.
At the beginning of this month of August a curtain was collected from the living room of the apartment including a portion from the same pair of curtains, materials that were sent to England with other articles/objects for subjection to examination.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P10/10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2530.jpg)
RESULTS
1- Morphology analysis of the hairs
All hairs received for analysis were subjected to macro- and microscopic characterisation, with the majority of those having the root being in a telogenic phase.
[Ref: https://www.promega.com/geneticidproc/e ... c/ab20.pdf]
Relating to Apartment no. 5-A
- Envelope No. 1 - "recovered from the floor at the entrance to the children's bedroom" 25 hairs with root; 4 hairs only stem; 3 hairs non-human.
- Envelope No. 2 - "recovered from the floor next to the bed from which the child disappeared" 3 hairs with root; 25 hairs only stem.
- Envelope No. 3 - "recovered from the top of the bed from which the child disappeared" 2 hairs with root; 2 hairs only stem.
- Envelope No. 4 - " recovered from the floor next to the bed that was next to the window in the children's bedroom" ll hairs with root; 4 hairs only stem.
- Envelope no. 6 - "recovered from the floor of the lounge" 26 hairs with root; 4 hairs only stem; l hair non-human.
- Envelope no. 7 - "recovered from the entrance hall at the front door of the apartment" 44 hairs with root; 8 hairs only stem; 6 hairs non-human.
- Mitochondrial DNA study
- Mitochondrial DNA was obtained from 194 vestiges - 1 spot and 193 hairs (roots and/or stems) of the 246 analysed. It was not possible to obtain results from 52 hairs, 31 of which were recovered in the apartment.
Mitochondrial DNA profiles of the vestiges
CONCLUSIONS
1st- The macro- and microscopic analysis of 257 hairs revealed 245 human and 12 non-human.
8th- Of the 245 hairs analysed, no results were obtained from 52.
National Institute of Legal Medicine, 9 July 2007.
[Titles, names and signatures of signatories to the report]
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
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They can test without root now.
At the beginning of this month of August a curtain was collected from the living room of the apartment including a portion from the same pair of curtains, materials that were sent to England with other articles/objects for subjection to examination.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P10/10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2530.jpg)
RESULTS
1- Morphology analysis of the hairs
All hairs received for analysis were subjected to macro- and microscopic characterisation, with the majority of those having the root being in a telogenic phase.
[Ref: https://www.promega.com/geneticidproc/e ... c/ab20.pdf]
Relating to Apartment no. 5-A
- Envelope No. 1 - "recovered from the floor at the entrance to the children's bedroom" 25 hairs with root; 4 hairs only stem; 3 hairs non-human.
- Envelope No. 2 - "recovered from the floor next to the bed from which the child disappeared" 3 hairs with root; 25 hairs only stem.
- Envelope No. 3 - "recovered from the top of the bed from which the child disappeared" 2 hairs with root; 2 hairs only stem.
- Envelope No. 4 - " recovered from the floor next to the bed that was next to the window in the children's bedroom" ll hairs with root; 4 hairs only stem.
- Envelope no. 6 - "recovered from the floor of the lounge" 26 hairs with root; 4 hairs only stem; l hair non-human.
- Envelope no. 7 - "recovered from the entrance hall at the front door of the apartment" 44 hairs with root; 8 hairs only stem; 6 hairs non-human.
- Mitochondrial DNA study
- Mitochondrial DNA was obtained from 194 vestiges - 1 spot and 193 hairs (roots and/or stems) of the 246 analysed. It was not possible to obtain results from 52 hairs, 31 of which were recovered in the apartment.
Mitochondrial DNA profiles of the vestiges
CONCLUSIONS
1st- The macro- and microscopic analysis of 257 hairs revealed 245 human and 12 non-human.
8th- Of the 245 hairs analysed, no results were obtained from 52.
National Institute of Legal Medicine, 9 July 2007.
[Titles, names and signatures of signatories to the report]
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
The crime occurred in May.
Rather remiss to be collecting forensics in August from a crime scene which had been released and other families allowed to holiday in during the intervening period?
Know what ... I doubt if SY are particularly interested in those curtains ... probably be as well to ignore what CdM are currently selling newspapers with ... and get it straight from the horse's mouth, whenever that may be.
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But they will be interested in testing the car boot hairs.
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The crime occurred in May.
Rather remiss to be collecting forensics in August from a crime scene which had been released and other families allowed to holiday in during the intervening period?
Know what ... I doubt if SY are particularly interested in those curtains ... probably be as well to ignore what CdM are currently selling newspapers with ... and get it straight from the horse's mouth, whenever that may be.
Know what.......I think we all have the intelligence to make up our own minds on this one Brietta, thanks all the same.
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But they will be interested in testing the car boot hairs.
If it comforts you to think so ... why should that be a problem?
I am sure they know exactly what they want to test or retest ... imho they will be looking to identify foreign DNA ... not the DNA of people who had every right to be in the location from where the samples were taken.
In case you missed it ... FOREIGN DNA. Which may or may not belong to an abductor?
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wasn't it that the markers found in Britain 15 would have been enough....but not in Portugal....
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/528865/Madeleine-McCann-human-hairs-hunt-Portugal
Madeleine McCann: Untested human hairs provide new hope in police hunt for DNA clues
BRITISH detectives probing the Madeleine McCann disappearance in Portugal want to retest hairs after it was found previous DNA tests carried out during the original investigation were incomplete.
Madeleine McCann who went missing in 2007Police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann want to DNA test hairs[AP]
Nearly 100 strands of hair tested during the original Madeleine McCann investigation were never DNA-matched, it emerged today.
Portuguese forensic experts analysed 444 hair strands they believed could hold the key to the youngster’s May 3 2007 disappearance.
They found 432 were human and 12 non-human. They were unable to DNA-match 98 of them and only obtained partial results from 19 of them, Portuguese daily Correio da Manha reported.
MADELEINE MCCANN: THE SEARCH CONTINUES
British detectives probing Madeleine McCann’s disappearance want to retest some of the hairs as well as curtains hanging in the Algarve apartment where she vanished.
Scotland Yard are expected to apply for permission in a sixth international letter of request to take the samples from a Portuguese lab so experts can look at them in the UK.
The fifth letter, understood to contain a request to reinterview three new suspects quizzed in the summer, has yet to be answered by new Madeleine McCann prosecutor Ines Sequeira.
Related articles
Maddie breakthrough: Curtains may hold DNA clue in hunt for Madeleine McCann
Hope for Maddie? The 3 women who could solve riddle of Madeleine McCann's disappearance
Has Madeleine McCann finally been found in Spain? Police investigate new sighting
A Met Police team led by DCI Andy Redwood announced their wish to look again at forensic material collected in the early days of the Madeleine McCann investigation during a visit to the university town of Coimbra earlier this month.
They met with the bosses of Portugal’s Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences in Coimbra, two hours drive north of Lisbon, where most of the material, also said to include 25 blood and saliva samples, is held.
Institute president Francisco Brizida, said afterwards: “I have the certainty they went away very happy.”
“The tonic of the meeting was about the possibility of the tests on samples collected in 2007 being re-done.
“The British police wanted clarification on the examinations the institute had carried out during the early stages of the inquiry in the areas of genetics and biology.
“We talked about non-identified material that was collected in Madeleine’s apartment.
“I can’t say for sure new DNA tests that didn’t yield a conclusive result in 2007 could now yield an objective result.
“But technology nowadays allows us to go further than years ago in areas like genetic markers.
“Several possibilities are open. One could be that British police do the tests in Britain with British technology and another that the institute does them.
“But that’s an area in which the institute does not have the last word. There’s a situation of judicial cooperation and a new international letter of request would be necessary.
another myth.....depends where the dna is found. In a car where other family members have been its meaningless.
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My understanding it was 15 out of around 35 markers and not 19, which makes the results basically useless as Madeleines parents together would share the same common markers...
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Groundhog day indeed.
I think it would be sensible not to rely on sources such as Correio da Manha for information … might be an idea to wait for official notification about what is going on … it avoids headlines such as the 100% DNA.
>>snip<<
Portuguese forensic experts analysed 444 hair strands they believed could hold the key to the three-year-old disappearance in May 2007.
They found 432 were human and 12 non-human. They were unable to DNA-match 98 of them and only obtained partial results from 19 of them, the Portuguese daily newspaper Correio da Manha reported.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/hair-strands-during-original-madeleine-mccann-investigation-never-dnamatched-9825210.html
That actually seems accurate for once:
First: In total in the two phases of the case there were 25 reference samples and 447 vestiges studied: 1 spot on the counterpane; 2 objects from the car boot and 444 hairs. The macro- and microscopic analyses of the 444 hairs revealed that 432 were humano and 12 non-human, no result being obtained for 98 hairs and only partial results for l9 hairs. With respect to the plastic object from the car boot no results were obtained.
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PRELIMINARY RESULTS
PREPARATION FOR THE INTERROGATIONS
Analyses of the residues collected following the visit by the dogs is entrusted to the English Forensic Science Service laboratory. To avoid any leaks of information, Stuart Prior, a senior officer with Leicestershire police, is responsible for liaison between the laboratory and José Freitas of Scotland Yard. The latter, who is with us, in Portimão, is passing on any relevant reports.
We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.
At the beginning of September, shortly before the McCann couple are placed under investigation, Superintendent Stuart Prior travels to Portimão to present the first of the two preliminary reports from the laboratory and to discuss the progress of the investigation.
At a meeting in our office, with the Portuguese and the English investigation team, Stuart expresses his disappointment over the test results. This is where the saga of the FSS reports begins. We read the part of the report dealing with the traces of blood lifted from the floor of apartment 5A, from behind the sofa and in the boot of the McCanns’ car
and we don’t agree with Stuart’s disappointment We talk about blood traces because the CSI dog is trained to find only that bodily fluid. The reports that support that decision are clear: the CSI dog was used to detect human blood. Low Copy Number, the technique used to determine the DNA of the samples, does not identify the nature of the bodily fluid they are derived from. But we know it’s definitely traces of blood and not other bodily fluids since the CSI dog is trained to detect only human blood.
In the first case, the laboratory considers that the result of the analysis is inconclusive because the samples gathered provide very little information when the DNA comes from more than one person. But all the confirmed DNA components match with the corresponding components in Madeleine’s DNA profile!.
As for the second case, after an explanation about the DNA components in Madeleine’s genetic profile, it concludes that 15 out of 19 markers in Madeleine’s profile are present in the sample examined. Only 4 short of 100% reliability. The FSS specialists qualify the results as, “complex,” and state that these 15 markers are not enough to conclude with certainty that it’s definitely Madeleine’s DNA profile, especially as Low Copy Number picked out a total of 37 in the sample. That means that at least three individuals contributed to this result.
But there was more in this first preliminary report. In the same report, the scientist went further and explained that in the profiles of many of the lab experts, elements from the DNA profile of Madeleine are present. This means that a major part of the DNA profile of any given person can be built by three donors. That is understandable. Two questions arose immediately. The first one: what good is a DNA profile in terms of criminal evidence, if it can be the combination of three or more donors? Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test? But the surprises from the preliminary reports were not to end there.
On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile.
As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.
Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance.
At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: “With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England.” I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am. In fact, in Portugal, it’s not so easy to arrest someone. We explain to Stuart that the McCanns interrogations would not result in detention. According to Portuguese law, the crimes of concealment of a corpse and simulating an abduction are not liable to remanding in custody.
WHAT THE LABORATORY REPORTS BRING TO LIGHT
The preliminary results from FSS were enlightening in a way, and confirmed the information given by the EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and the CSI dog.
– The CSI dog, Keela, signaled the presence of human blood where Eddie, the EVRD dog, marked the presence of cadaver odour – on the floor tiles behind the sofa in the lounge, on the key and in the boot of the Renault Scenic that was used by the McCanns from May 27th onwards.
– the bodily fluids, according to the FSS, contain markers from Madeleine’s DNA profile.
These elements do not constitute concrete proof but simply clues to be added to those we already possess. In itself, the definition of a DNA profile from LCN is not considered as evidence in a criminal investigation. In his report, the English scientist says that he cannot give answers to the following questions: when was the DNA deposited? In what way? What bodily fluid does the DNA come from? Has a crime been committed?
The scientific evidence is not enough and it has to be accompanied by other types of material, documented and testimonial evidence. It is only in this way that the entire puzzle can be reconstructed and certainties can be achieved, for the material truth to be established.
The FSS has still not provided the result of the technical analysis of the hair found in the boot of the car. Once more, Stuart has to contact the laboratory. Nothing has been done. We want to know two things: if the hair is indeed Madeleine’s, and if it comes from a living or a dead person. The FSS can only answer the first question. English colleagues present at the meeting raise the possibility of the hair being sent to other European laboratories which have the resources to clear up the second point for us: hair from a living or a dead person. But the FSS does not seem to want to part with the hair. They claim that using a colour comparison test they can establish if the hair belongs to Madeleine and in a second stage, identify the DNA profile. None of that will happen. We never find out if the hair was Madeleine’s or her parents’ or her brother’s or her sister’s, even though the laboratory has the DNA profiles of each member of the family.
Let’s remember: it is totally logical to find Madeleine’s DNA in the home, but absolutely not in a car rented more than twenty days after her disappearance. (TOTL)
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I haven't read that before from Portuguese point of view. Nice post. What could be the possible excuse for not testing the hair or returning it? Seems poor...
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I haven't read that before from Portuguese point of view. Nice post. What could be the possible excuse for not testing the hair or returning it? Seems poor...
What are you referring to? The hair fragments from the Scenic? They were returned, there's a receipt slip signed by Inspector Viegas.
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wasn't it that the markers found in Britain 15 would have been enough....but not in Portugal....
No. That seems to be a Levy special completely confusing different issues. Even though it still manages to remain in the Top 100 myth charts.
There's at least one thread on that on here somewhere.
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Carana - ok. Do you know whether the hairs were eventually tested?
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Carana - ok. Do you know whether the hairs were eventually tested?
Which ones? If you mean the hair fragments from the Scenic, the Palmer report is here:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/A_L_PALMER.htm
Those hairs were returned to the PJ.
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My understanding it was 15 out of around 35 markers and not 19, which makes the results basically useless as Madeleines parents together would share the same common markers...
More or less, however, there are several areas of confusion.
One is that an allele (or component in FSS report parlance) is not the same as a marker. A marker (which is also a misnomer, but it will do) is used to mean two allele values at that "marker" area.
Fifteen markers required for a paternity test in Portugal therefore means 30 alleles, not 15.
Another issue is that 15 alleles out of 20 were found. There were only 19 peaks because at one marker area, she'd inherited the same allele value from both parents. However, those 15 alleles were in a mixed soup of 37 alleles from between 3 and 5 donors, in a location that numerous relatives may have touched, in particular her parents. There is therefore no way of determining whether those 15 are actually hers or simply the alleles in common with the various donors.
There are a few other issues, e.g., that the UK only uses a 10 marker system (SGM+), i.e., it only checks for 20 alleles in 10 marker locations, whereas the PT system checks for more - 15 markers, i.e, 30 alleles.
I could go on...
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PRELIMINARY RESULTS
PREPARATION FOR THE INTERROGATIONS
Analyses of the residues collected following the visit by the dogs is entrusted to the English Forensic Science Service laboratory. To avoid any leaks of information, Stuart Prior, a senior officer with Leicestershire police, is responsible for liaison between the laboratory and José Freitas of Scotland Yard. The latter, who is with us, in Portimão, is passing on any relevant reports.
We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.
At the beginning of September, shortly before the McCann couple are placed under investigation, Superintendent Stuart Prior travels to Portimão to present the first of the two preliminary reports from the laboratory and to discuss the progress of the investigation.
At a meeting in our office, with the Portuguese and the English investigation team, Stuart expresses his disappointment over the test results. This is where the saga of the FSS reports begins. We read the part of the report dealing with the traces of blood lifted from the floor of apartment 5A, from behind the sofa and in the boot of the McCanns’ car
and we don’t agree with Stuart’s disappointment We talk about blood traces because the CSI dog is trained to find only that bodily fluid. The reports that support that decision are clear: the CSI dog was used to detect human blood. Low Copy Number, the technique used to determine the DNA of the samples, does not identify the nature of the bodily fluid they are derived from. But we know it’s definitely traces of blood and not other bodily fluids since the CSI dog is trained to detect only human blood.
In the first case, the laboratory considers that the result of the analysis is inconclusive because the samples gathered provide very little information when the DNA comes from more than one person. But all the confirmed DNA components match with the corresponding components in Madeleine’s DNA profile!.
As for the second case, after an explanation about the DNA components in Madeleine’s genetic profile, it concludes that 15 out of 19 markers in Madeleine’s profile are present in the sample examined. Only 4 short of 100% reliability. The FSS specialists qualify the results as, “complex,” and state that these 15 markers are not enough to conclude with certainty that it’s definitely Madeleine’s DNA profile, especially as Low Copy Number picked out a total of 37 in the sample. That means that at least three individuals contributed to this result.
But there was more in this first preliminary report. In the same report, the scientist went further and explained that in the profiles of many of the lab experts, elements from the DNA profile of Madeleine are present. This means that a major part of the DNA profile of any given person can be built by three donors. That is understandable. Two questions arose immediately. The first one: what good is a DNA profile in terms of criminal evidence, if it can be the combination of three or more donors? Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test? But the surprises from the preliminary reports were not to end there.
On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile.
As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.
Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance.
At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: “With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England.” I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am. In fact, in Portugal, it’s not so easy to arrest someone. We explain to Stuart that the McCanns interrogations would not result in detention. According to Portuguese law, the crimes of concealment of a corpse and simulating an abduction are not liable to remanding in custody.
WHAT THE LABORATORY REPORTS BRING TO LIGHT
The preliminary results from FSS were enlightening in a way, and confirmed the information given by the EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and the CSI dog.
– The CSI dog, Keela, signaled the presence of human blood where Eddie, the EVRD dog, marked the presence of cadaver odour – on the floor tiles behind the sofa in the lounge, on the key and in the boot of the Renault Scenic that was used by the McCanns from May 27th onwards.
– the bodily fluids, according to the FSS, contain markers from Madeleine’s DNA profile.
These elements do not constitute concrete proof but simply clues to be added to those we already possess. In itself, the definition of a DNA profile from LCN is not considered as evidence in a criminal investigation. In his report, the English scientist says that he cannot give answers to the following questions: when was the DNA deposited? In what way? What bodily fluid does the DNA come from? Has a crime been committed?
The scientific evidence is not enough and it has to be accompanied by other types of material, documented and testimonial evidence. It is only in this way that the entire puzzle can be reconstructed and certainties can be achieved, for the material truth to be established.
The FSS has still not provided the result of the technical analysis of the hair found in the boot of the car. Once more, Stuart has to contact the laboratory. Nothing has been done. We want to know two things: if the hair is indeed Madeleine’s, and if it comes from a living or a dead person. The FSS can only answer the first question. English colleagues present at the meeting raise the possibility of the hair being sent to other European laboratories which have the resources to clear up the second point for us: hair from a living or a dead person. But the FSS does not seem to want to part with the hair. They claim that using a colour comparison test they can establish if the hair belongs to Madeleine and in a second stage, identify the DNA profile. None of that will happen. We never find out if the hair was Madeleine’s or her parents’ or her brother’s or her sister’s, even though the laboratory has the DNA profiles of each member of the family.
Let’s remember: it is totally logical to find Madeleine’s DNA in the home, but absolutely not in a car rented more than twenty days after her disappearance. (TOTL)
What a totally misleading statement. Eddie did not alert in the car and Amaral shows his complete ignorance of the fact that Eddie - like Keela, would also alert to blood - from a dead or living person. He appears to be under the impression that Eddie only alerted to cadaverscent. Such an abysmal lack of knowledge of the facts - in an area of investigation which he claimed to be of major importance in the case is shameful IMO.
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There are 3 DNA profiles in the files. None can be Madeleine (for a start they are of men) yet between them they share 13 (?*) alleles in common.
* I did check some time ago and I'm going from memory as I can't be bothered to check them all again.
If any 3-4 of us here touched the same spot, it is highly probable that we would also share a similar amount of alleles in common with hers. A test could not then formally exclude the possibility that Madeleine had touched the same spot that we had, but in terms of evidence, it means squiddly zilch.
Plus the fact that even if her DNA had been in the car, there would be know way of determining whether this was a transfer from packing up and moving the family's belongings (including hers) to the villa.
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What a totally misleading statement. Eddie did not alert in the car and Amaral shows his complete ignorance of the fact that Eddie - like Keela, would also alert to blood - from a dead or living person. He appears to be under the impression that Eddie only alerted to cadaverscent. Such an abysmal lack of knowledge of the facts - in an area of investigation which he claimed to be of major importance in the case is shameful IMO.
I think that this is one of my favourite snippets:
We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children.
- No blood was found. The only indicator was that Keela had reacted.
- His book is supposed to be based on the publicly available files. The forensic report doesn't state that 50% of the DNA result matched Gerry's. That may be the case, but it's not in the files and may be hearsay.
- Let's assume for the moment that he's correct on that. But there is then a giant leap into fuzzy logic: it must therefore be the blood of one of his children.
You couldn't make it up... except that... well, never mind.
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What a totally misleading statement. Eddie did not alert in the car and Amaral shows his complete ignorance of the fact that Eddie - like Keela, would also alert to blood - from a dead or living person. He appears to be under the impression that Eddie only alerted to cadaverscent. Such an abysmal lack of knowledge of the facts - in an area of investigation which he claimed to be of major importance in the case is shameful IMO.
The EVRD alerted to scent coming out from the car. There was no need for Eddie to go inside the car and alert.
"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence." (MG)
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But they will be interested in testing the car boot hairs.
I have no problem with that.
If any hairs can be conclusively proven to have been shed post-mortem, then that might take the investigation in a different direction.
If there are no signs of post-mortem shedding, then that would be a box to tick. There presumably weren't any at the time of the Palmer report as he'd presumably have noticed by examining them under a microscope.
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The EVRD alerted to scent coming out from the car. There was no need for Eddie to go inside the car and alert.
"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence." (MG)
The scent from the car was from the keyfob which was inside the driver's door compartment. Keela also alerted to the keyfob. DNA on the keyfob was identified as Gerry's. Gerry is alive and kicking. Therefore it was a blood detection.
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I have no problem with that.
If any hairs can be conclusively proven to have been shed post-mortem, then that might take the investigation in a different direction.
If there are no signs of post-mortem shedding, then that would be a box to tick. There presumably weren't any at the time of the Palmer report as he'd presumably have noticed by examining them under a microscope.
The Palmer report is a joke. It could be her hair in the car. Well that's really helpful.
Conclusion
In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann.
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The scent from the car was from the keyfob which was inside the driver's door compartment. Keela also alerted to the keyfob. DNA on the keyfob was identified as Gerry's. Gerry is alive and kicking. Therefore it was a blood detection.
Hmm let me think. Eddie was chasing that scent a good distance away from the car. Keela gets in real close to freeze alert to blood. So do I listen to Martin Grime's professional opinion about Eddie's alerts or yours?
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The Palmer report is a joke. It could be her hair in the car. Well that's really helpful.
Conclusion
In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann.
Joke?
He produced the best results possible with the material he was presented with.
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The Palmer report is a joke. It could be her hair in the car. Well that's really helpful.
Conclusion
In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann.
The fragments were too short even for mtDNA testing. Not that would have been particularly helpful as Kate and the twins would also have the same haplotype, as would Kate's mum who may have been in the car at some point.
I don't see the issue about whether any of the hairs were hers or not anyway. Hairs could have been on any of the belongings transported in the car when they moved to the villa, or even before if the kids had played with one of her toys or worn a cardigan of hers, for example.
The only relevance would be if any of the hairs had shown any sign of post-morten shedding, which they clearly didn't as Palmer would have examined them under a microscope and Corte-Real, the head of the INML, also examined them.
It would have been a different issue if hairs (with or without any sign of post-mortem shedding) had been found in a location with no known direct or indirect association with her.
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Didn't the twins have their hair cut at some point?
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Didn't the twins have their hair cut at some point?
Yes, and anyone in that car could have had a fringe trimmed with a hair stuck on clothing. They're so short, I've seen split ends longer than some of those fragments.
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The arguments put forward in this thread just go to demonstrate how unhelpful sophisticated forensics can be in solving certain crimes.
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The arguments put forward in this thread just go to demonstrate how unhelpful sophisticated forensics can be in solving certain crimes.
This is true.
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The arguments put forward in this thread just go to demonstrate how unhelpful sophisticated forensics can be in solving certain crimes.
Why do you say that?
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Why do you say that?
Simply because, so far, none of the forensic tests applied have produced a lead to the perpetrator.
Obviously forensics play an important role in modern crime solving, but do not always come up with the goods.
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Simply because, so far, none of the forensic tests applied have produced a lead to the perpetrator.
Obviously forensics play an important role in modern crime solving, but do not always come up with the goods.
Occasion is the context.
Modern forensics (frequently) have much to offer, but not always.
On all balances, we should welcome modern forensics and be glad when they unlock the key to solving crime.
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Simply because, so far, none of the forensic tests applied have produced a lead to the perpetrator.
Obviously forensics play an important role in modern crime solving, but do not always come up with the goods.
And of course more than one conviction has been declared unsafe because of flaky forensics.
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Occasion is the context.
Modern forensics (frequently) have much to offer, but not always.
On all balances, we should welcome modern forensics and be glad when they unlock the key to solving crime.
I don't think anyone would scorn them, but it is wise to recognise their limitations.
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Simply because, so far, none of the forensic tests applied have produced a lead to the perpetrator.
Obviously forensics play an important role in modern crime solving, but do not always come up with the goods.
No, but there wasn't a thorough finger-tip search done at the time which might have revealed more traces even though the scene had been contaminated. CCTV might have been a major asset, if any had existed in PdL / not been wiped. On a more positive note, there are still a lot of samples that might yield results with new techniques.
If you think back to even the mid-80s, the state of forensic science at the time seems positively primitive. A crime scene sample with just a blood-type could be a nail in the coffin of a suspect who happened to share it.
There was an interesting research paper on the subject written by a Portuguese academic. From memory, it discussed the dichotomy between how different media approach forensics. One the one hand, serious media can present it as informative and educational, but then the tabloids and programmes such as CSI over-sex it, leading to misconceptions as to what can realistically be expected. It's online in Portuguese if anyone is interested, and I think there's an abstract in English somewhere.
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Oh sweet baby Jesus, 7 years later and 10+ million pounds spent and SY are pinning their hopes on a set of curtains ??
If it wasn't so serious it would be almost funny !!
Thing is though, even if DNA from a suspect already identified or even as yet unidentified is found on the curtains or in hairs collected from 5a, that in itself does not prove that they were involved in the abduction of Madeleine. Such a match would have to be supported by other evidence if a case for prosecution were to be possible.
Contamination aside, matching DNA samples could very well place an individual in apartment 5a before 4 May 2007 but if that individual had another reason for being there, innocent or otherwise, then that again could rule him out.
Apologies Carana, I note you have already covered this.
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Thing is though, even if DNA from a suspect already identified or even as yet unidentified is found on the curtains or in hairs collected from 5a, that in itself does not prove that they were involved in the abduction of Madeleine. Such a match would have to be supported by other evidence if a case for prosecution were to be possible.
Contamination aside, matching DNA samples could very well place an individual in apartment 5a before 4 May 2007 but if that individual had another reason for being there, innocent or otherwise, then that again could rule him out.
I imagine that there could be dozens of people who's DNA might easily be found there for perfectly legitimate reasons - cleaners, maintenance, previous guests, police, Tapas 9, etc, etc, etc
All would need to be eliminated and some may have moved away and be difficult to trace.
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I imagine that there could be dozens of people who's DNA might easily be found there for perfectly legitimate reasons - cleaners, maintenance, previous guests, police, Tapas 9, etc, etc, etc
All would need to be eliminated and some may have moved away and be difficult to trace.
There could also be burglars DNA in the apartment since we know the apartments were a prime target.
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And of course more than one conviction has been declared unsafe because of flaky forensics.
of course if flaky forensics...such as 15 alleles and dogs alert without corroboration...point to the mccanns then all normal rules of flaky forensics no longer apply and flaky forensics become solid evidence
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I don't think anyone is saying that - other than you.
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I don't think anyone is saying that - other than you.
Oh yes they do...stupid as it may seem
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Forensics can only take us so far even today but after seven long years I don't see SY getting any closer to solving Madeleine's disappearance.
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British researchers intend to reassess the curtain of the room where Maddie slept.
Correio da /Manhã
27/10/2014
By Rui Gomes Pando
(http://cdn.cmjornal.xl.pt/2014-10/img_757x426$2014_10_26_22_26_42_413919.jpg)
It's a piece of curtain room where Maddie slept and was thoroughly analyzed by experts Portuguese in 2007. It is this piece of fabric that British police want to now take England to be analyzed by a private laboratory, because he believes could be the key to the mystery of the disappearance of British child.
The British want to re-examine everything that was found by Portuguese police in the apartment 5A at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, Lagos. Investigators believe whoever took the child from the room will have left traces of DNA on the curtain.
The piece of fabric that is saved in the process, was subjected to various tests by experts from the National Institute of Legal Medicine. At the time, know the CM, we assessed the presence of blood, hair and semen. No trace, precluding comparison with DNA profiles were found. However, the British say, seven years later, can use new techniques to detect DNA. Also want to re-examine 30 strands of hair found in the house, using new genetic and biological tests.
The request for revaluation of traces will be made to the Public Ministry of Portimão through sixth letter of request, although still no response to the fifth order there. The Portuguese authorities have warned the British, at a meeting two weeks ago that the techniques used in Portugal are equal or more sophisticated than those used in England.
www.translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/ingleses_querem_levar_cortinado.html&prev=search
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Erm... I think CdaM is a bit confused about the bedroom curtain having been thoroughly tested by the INML.
It isn't even mentioned in the PJ forensic team's report, let alone bagged and sent for analysis.
However, as it states that they went around the apartment with a black torch, it is possible they waved a black torch at it at some point and didn't see anything suspicious. But that seems to be it.