UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: david1819 on November 16, 2014, 08:53:36 PM
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I find it very difficult to believe what is written on jeremybamber.org. it claims
In truth Jeremy Bamber has been examined by over 27 different psychologists, none of them have found him to have a personality disorder of any variety, nor any mental illness, nor any indication of psychopathy.
Now bare in mind psychologists are not psychiatrists, It is usually only a psychiatrist that can make a formal diagnosis. Unless your a psychologists with a doctorate like Dr Hare
The Hare psychopathy checklist (PCL-R) should only be used by experts. But apparently JB did not score high enough on this diagnostic but who done this examination? probably someone who supports his cause who does not know how to use it. Dr Hare has stated in the wrong hands you get a wrong result. However I think a genuine professional assessment on JB would be pointless by now as he would know what's happening and probably knows the diagnostic criteria enough to pass an examination of such by lying.
I am convinced he does have psychopathy simply by his look. Those with psychopathy tend to have a cold predatory gaze with no emotion in the eyes. They say with psychopaths the eyes don't match the mouth or the situation.
Would any normal individual have this expression on their face if they stand accused of killing their family?
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/68621000/jpg/_68621378_68621377.jpg)
It could be me but he has not emotion in his looks, like a reptile!
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/15/article-0-08662602000005DC-456_233x423.jpg)
Then this photo, it seems like he is trying to smile or trying to hard to make a convincing smile.
(http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/00465/snn0827jb280_465543a.jpg)
59
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He looks better with his hair combed back.
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I find it very difficult to believe what is written on jeremybamber.org. it claims
Now bare in mind psychologists are not psychiatrists, It is usually only a psychiatrist that can make a formal diagnosis. Unless your a psychologists with a doctorate like Dr Hare
The Hare psychopathy checklist (PCL-R) should only be used by experts. But apparently JB did not score high enough on this diagnostic but who done this examination? probably someone who supports his cause who does not know how to use it. Dr Hare has stated in the wrong hands you get a wrong result. However I think a genuine professional assessment on JB would be pointless by now as he would know what's happening and probably knows the diagnostic criteria enough to pass an examination of such by lying.
I am convinced he does have psychopathy simply by his look. Those with psychopathy tend to have a cold predatory gaze with no emotion in the eyes. They say with psychopaths the eyes don't match the mouth or the situation.
Would any normal individual have this expression on their face if they stand accused of killing their family?
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/68621000/jpg/_68621378_68621377.jpg)
It could be me but he has not emotion in his looks, like a reptile!
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/15/article-0-08662602000005DC-456_233x423.jpg)
Then this photo, it seems like he is trying to smile or trying to hard to make a convincing smile.
(http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/00465/snn0827jb280_465543a.jpg)
You CAN'T diagnose a psychopath simply by the way they look - that theory went out with the Arc. The theory was developed by Cesare Lombroso in 19th century and that's where it belongs.
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You CAN'T diagnose a psychopath simply by the way they look - that theory went out with the Arc. The theory was developed by Cesare Lombroso in 19th century and that's where it belongs.
I never said you could. but a doctor does discuss this in the link below
http://www.askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/psychopathicstare.html (http://www.askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/psychopathicstare.html)
"That warning given (and please take it to heart), let me reply to your "stare" inquiry. Some psychopaths do have such a stare, but others do not"
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I never said you could. but a doctor does discuss this in the link below
http://www.askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/psychopathicstare.html (http://www.askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/psychopathicstare.html)
"That warning given (and please take it to heart), let me reply to your "stare" inquiry. Some psychopaths do have such a stare, but others do not"
Lol @)(++(*
I think this one proves beyond doubt JB is responsible:
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He looks better with his hair combed back.
How much better? 8(0(*
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I find it very difficult to believe what is written on jeremybamber.org. it claims
Now bare in mind psychologists are not psychiatrists, It is usually only a psychiatrist that can make a formal diagnosis. Unless your a psychologists with a doctorate like Dr Hare
The Hare psychopathy checklist (PCL-R) should only be used by experts. But apparently JB did not score high enough on this diagnostic but who done this examination? probably someone who supports his cause who does not know how to use it. Dr Hare has stated in the wrong hands you get a wrong result. However I think a genuine professional assessment on JB would be pointless by now as he would know what's happening and probably knows the diagnostic criteria enough to pass an examination of such by lying.
I am convinced he does have psychopathy simply by his look. Those with psychopathy tend to have a cold predatory gaze with no emotion in the eyes. They say with psychopaths the eyes don't match the mouth or the situation.
I would imagine Prof Egan was competent to assess JB:
http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
I understand as a Cat A prisoner JB is regularly assessed as part of a risk assessment review. Unless his conviction is quashed it's unlikely he will ever be freed ie parole so I imagine the risk assessments are to assess any risk to himself and others within the prison? In any event I am sure those carrying out any risk assessments will be competent and meet Home Office/Prison Service criteria?
David I can't believe you are seriously suggesting that psychopaths, or any traits etc, can be identified by physical appearance? However I do think sub-consciously prejudice plays a role not just by way of looks but other factors too eg lifestyle.
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I find it very difficult to believe what is written on jeremybamber.org. it claims
Now bare in mind psychologists are not psychiatrists, It is usually only a psychiatrist that can make a formal diagnosis. Unless your a psychologists with a doctorate like Dr Hare
The Hare psychopathy checklist (PCL-R) should only be used by experts. But apparently JB did not score high enough on this diagnostic but who done this examination? probably someone who supports his cause who does not know how to use it. Dr Hare has stated in the wrong hands you get a wrong result. However I think a genuine professional assessment on JB would be pointless by now as he would know what's happening and probably knows the diagnostic criteria enough to pass an examination of such by lying.
I am convinced he does have psychopathy simply by his look. Those with psychopathy tend to have a cold predatory gaze with no emotion in the eyes. They say with psychopaths the eyes don't match the mouth or the situation.
Would any normal individual have this expression on their face if they stand accused of killing their family?
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/68621000/jpg/_68621378_68621377.jpg)
It could be me but he has not emotion in his looks, like a reptile!
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/15/article-0-08662602000005DC-456_233x423.jpg)
Then this photo, it seems like he is trying to smile or trying to hard to make a convincing smile.
(http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/00465/snn0827jb280_465543a.jpg)
David, I find myself wondering what other things about a person you might be convinced by simply by their facial expression. Religion? Politics? Sexuality? Marital status?
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David, I find myself wondering what other things about a person you might be convinced by simply by their facial expression. Religion? Politics? Sexuality? Marital status?
No, Religion Politics Sexuality Marital status are different things altogether. But you do have intuition you can tell certain things about people. Jeremy's behaviour just don't seem to match the situation around him
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No, Religion Politics Sexuality Marital status are different things altogether. But you do have intuition you can tell certain things about people. Jeremy's behaviour just don't seem to match the situation around him
Do you mean like this? 8(0(*
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/christopher-jefferies-was-vilified-for-a-murder-he-didnt-commit--now-hes-a-privacy-crusader-9217643.html
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No, Religion Politics Sexuality Marital status are different things altogether. But you do have intuition you can tell certain things about people. Jeremy's behaviour just don't seem to match the situation around him
What sort of behaviour would match such a situation?
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No, Religion Politics Sexuality Marital status are different things altogether. But you do have intuition you can tell certain things about people. Jeremy's behaviour just don't seem to match the situation around him
I think it's perfectly possible to assume, that from an early age, Jeremy was of that era of adopted children, who's natural instincts and exuberance were stifled and he would have been moulded to "fit" into the family. This "moulding" would have continued at school. The chances are, that by the time he left, between family and school, all spontaneous reaction had been bred out of him. He most certainly wouldn't have been equipped to deal with what had happened because he hadn't been given the emotional tools.
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I think it's perfectly possible to assume, that from an early age, Jeremy was of that era of adopted children, who's natural instincts and exuberance were stifled and he would have been moulded to "fit" into the family. This "moulding" would have continued at school. The chances are, that by the time he left, between family and school, all spontaneous reaction had been bred out of him. He most certainly wouldn't have been equipped to deal with what had happened because he hadn't been given the emotional tools.
You can see in photos of Jeremy´s birth family, that they are fun loving, very smiling and laughing people. The Bambers seemed more serene - there must have been a conflict there in some way, I can see that.
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You can see in photos of Jeremy´s birth family, that they are fun loving, very smiling and laughing people. The Bambers seemed more serene - there must have been a conflict there in some way, I can see that.
Abs, it seems that at one time there was a huge need to hide the fact that a child was adopted. Of course, it MAY have stemmed from the fear of the child standing out as being different from the family it was adopted into meaning that all traits of the biological family had to be eradicated.
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I have never thought him a psychopath.
He was an inheritance killer. There have been a lot of them over the decades. Most were not brutal criminals beforehand & would not have committed crimes afterwards, if they had got away with it.
There were lots of other reasons why he committed the massacre. But the main reason was money.
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His lawyers are on record stating that he displayed the classic indicators of a psychopath. Scott Lomax wrote in his book that Bamber underwent several psychological assessments in prison but that no evidence of psychopathy was found.
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His lawyers are on record stating that he displayed the classic indicators of a psychopath. Scott Lomax wrote in his book that Bamber underwent several psychological assessments in prison but that no evidence of psychopathy was found.
Andrea has recently posted about this. As far as I am aware the only reference for this comes from Roger Wilke's book? Apparently an "eminent" psychologist or psychiatrist (?) was invited into chambers by Geoffrey Rivlin QC shortly before trial. An opinion was sought and it was said that JB showed all the classic signs of psychopathy in that he was able to push things to the back of his mind.
Does anyone have any info on this other than RW's book? As it stands I think it lacks credibility? Who was the "eminent" psychologist/psychiatrist? If it is true why didn't GR arrange for JB to be properly assessed?
It seems clear to me that JB is not a psychopath and never has been. However I don't think this really proves much in terms of his ability or lack of to murder his family:
http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
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Andrea has recently posted about this. As far as I am aware the only reference for this comes from Roger Wilke's book? Apparently an "eminent" psychologist or psychiatrist (?) was invited into chambers by Geoffrey Rivlin QC shortly before trial. An opinion was sought and it was said that JB showed all the classic signs of psychopathy in that he was able to push things to the back of his mind.
Does anyone have any info on this other than RW's book? As it stands I think it lacks credibility? Who was the "eminent" psychologist/psychiatrist? If it is true why didn't GR arrange for JB to be properly assessed?
It seems clear to me that JB is not a psychopath and never has been. However I don't think this really proves much in terms of his ability or lack of to murder his family:
http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
what exactly was he supposed to be pushing to the back of his mind? If saw nothing or committed no murders what are his reactions supposed to be ? remorse ? what for if he was not guilty.?
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what exactly was he supposed to be pushing to the back of his mind? If saw nothing or committed no murders what are his reactions supposed to be ? remorse ? what for if he was not guilty.?
When I said in my post above "if it's true" I meant if it's true that GR invited a psychologist/psychiatrist into chambers for an opinion on JB then why did he not arrange to have JB formerly assessed if it was to aid the defences case? If was not to aid the defences case then what was the purpose?
Guinness in answer to your post, those around JB accused him of not showing enough emotion, behaving inappropriately and apparently questioning his ability to carry on with the day to day practicalities of life in the aftermath of the tragedy at WHF. When he did show emotion eg at his parents' funeral he was accused of feigning it.
For example Barbara Wilson, farm secretary, stated in a recent tv docu that JB wasn't sad. Why would Jeremy Bamber share his sadness/feelings with the farm secretary? Just because someone doesn't walk around blubbing doesn't mean they don't feel sad. In any event he couldn't win had he have kept blubbing it would have been 'put on'.
@ 6.50 in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo
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There's absolutely no evidence JB has ever suffered from any psychopathy/personality disorder:
http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
Jeremybamber.org is not a reliable and balanced/fair source. However I have had conflicting opinions about the guy.
Former inmates and visitors have said he is perfectly alright/normal and good to be around on the other hand I found these comment from people I quote
"No reflection of guilt or innocence...I just personally found him to be a creepy bloke and was very glad of the armed guard with him. He made my hair stand on end."
"A friend of mine is an officer at his prison and has know Bamber for a fair while. His verdict is that he is an evil scheming b........ who is in exactly the right place"
However you need to consider that first impressions are a big factor on peoples judgments. And knowing what he is convicted of prior to meeting him will make a fair judgment impossible.
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Jeremybamber.org is not a reliable and balanced/fair source. However I have had conflicting opinions about the guy.
Former inmates and visitors have said he is perfectly alright/normal and good to be around on the other hand I found these comment from people I quote
"No reflection of guilt or innocence...I just personally found him to be a creepy bloke and was very glad of the armed guard with him. He made my hair stand on end."
"A friend of mine is an officer at his prison and has know Bamber for a fair while. His verdict is that he is an evil scheming b........ who is in exactly the right place"
However you need to consider that first impressions are a big factor on peoples judgments. And knowing what he is convicted of prior to meeting him will make a fair judgment impossible.
The info was obtained from JB.org but supplied by Prof Egan:
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/medicine/people/vincent.egan
I rather think Prof Egan would have something to say if he was being misquoted.
Andrew Hunter, former MP, Michael Turner QC, and David James Smith, journalist, all appear to have found JB 'normal'. This is what David James Smith said:
"I had said on the way in that I feared I would find him repulsive, but in the event, I found him all too human and understandable. Except for the part of him that I felt was hidden. The corner of his soul that carried the knowledge of what had really happened that night 25 years ago,
and who really had killed his family.
He knows the truth. And he is the only person in the world who does.
Was it Sheila? Was it Jeremy?
Reader, I have no idea."
http://davidjamessmith.net/pdf_articles/DJS_bamber.pdf
The following testimonials from various individuals seem to find him 'normal' too:
http://www.jeremybambertestimony.co.uk/
Yes first impressions count and most will find it difficult to see him anything but guilty given he has been behind bars for so long albeit protesting his innocence.
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There's absolutely no evidence JB has ever suffered from any psychopathy/personality disorder:
http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
You forget the comments by his own legal team. How else would you explain the lack of empathy on finding out that five members of your family had just been murdered?
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You forget the comments by his own legal team. How else would you explain the lack of empathy on finding out that five members of your family had just been murdered?
Dr Craig from CoA:
39. Dr Craig also saw the appellant outside the farmhouse. He said he appeared to be in a state of shock. At one stage he broke down and cried and he also appeared to vomit. The appellant told the doctor there had been "some considerable discussion" amongst the family about the future of Sheila Caffell's children the previous evening, during which the question of their being fostered had been raised. He said that the family was concerned that his sister had been abusing the children.
Please explain re your post above?
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Confuse-us he say - "Take everything Jeremy Bamber utters with a huge bucketful of salt"
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Rivlin and his defence team came to the conclusion he was after talking to an eminent London psychologist.
Bamber showed all the classic symptoms of the psychopath who had put the murders completely out of his mind.
Let's not forget that psychopathy is not for life as has been shown in several case studies. With young men diagnosed with psychopathic tendencies, the trait can disappear altogether with subjects by the time they're in their forties.
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Rivlin and his defence team came to the conclusion he was after talking to an eminent London psychologist.
Bamber showed all the classic symptoms of the psychopath who had put the murders completely out of his mind.
Let's not forget that psychopathy is not for life as has been shown in several case studies. With young men diagnosed with psychopathic tendencies, the trait can disappear altogether with subjects by the time they're in their forties.
This "eminent London psychologist" is often referred to and I believe first surfaced in Wilkes book. Without a name, credentials and testimony it lacks credibility.
I would imagine JB was formally assessed when he started his sentence to ensure he was not a risk to himself and others and was in the right type of prison? I believe he has been assessed annually during his incarceration and nothing untoward has been identified?
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This "eminent London psychologist" is often referred to and I believe first surfaced in Wilkes book. Without a name, credentials and testimony it lacks credibility.
I would imagine JB was formally assessed when he started his sentence to ensure he was not a risk to himself and others and was in the right type of prison? I believe he has been assessed annually during his incarceration and nothing untoward has been identified?
Well assuming is not really reliable. Even if he does have psychopathy it doesn't prove him guilty. Some people have said he is rather strange/scary and other have not
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Apparently people who commit Familicide usually do so after a massive down-turn in their fortunes, so that they can no longer cope with the shame, guilt, humiliation of the outcome. I can't see that JB had suffered such misfortunes nearly so much as the girl whose modelling career was over, whose marriage was over, whose genetic mother rejected her after meeting her and who was struggling to look after her children.
If it was JB it was surely for money - or to be rid of an annoying bunch of people.
The unfortunate fact is, it could have been either of them. It is also worth bearing in mind that plenty of people - particularly at that immature age - say they hate their parents (some every day when they are teenagers!). Quite possibly JB did hate his parents - but that doesn't mean he killed them.
You are surrounded by psychopaths: they are everywhere! Most of them don't murder their families however :-)
I heartily recommend this little book for some further insight - into yourselves as well!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/In-Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Manipulative/dp/1935166301/ref=dp_ob_title_bk
Also, if you've ever had Valium you'll know how serene it can make you feel. The photo of him looking directly at the camera was taken, I believe, whilst he was being taken out after questioning - after a long day of that, probably without Valium, I'd say he looks a lot more concerned. I think if you watch clips on YouTube of him being yanked around in handcuffs you can wonder if these still of the same events are truly representative of what he looked like.
I have a little theory about Aspergers Syndrome: I know some people think this is trotted out as a tired excuse all the time, but I have autism in my own family and have done A LOT of research on the subject in the last 5 years as it greatly affected my life. Reading the snippets of police interviews someone has posted elsewhere on here, JB's answers were exactly the kind of answers my 12 year old with Aspergers would give: they are literal answers, because people with autism take what is said literally (this leads to many huge rows and a lot of silly conversations in my house!). Where he says 'no comment' is wherever he has tried to fathom the ineptly-posed question but given up. This accounts for the answers seeming so Smart-Alec. And the dumb-ass remark in court saying "that's what you have to establish" (a turn of phrase I believe his lawyer also used?) - that response is the sort of thing my husband would say (he would also be dumb enough to enter the house via a window rather than delay his objective by getting the keys, and he would also be idiot enough to TELL the police all this under caution in an interview if he had done nothing wrong so would see nothing wrong with it - lack of theory of mind means they don't realise other people don't know what they know, and they know what they did was harmless). This could also account for many people finding the way he was behaving as 'odd': he wouldn't know how he was expected behave, and would behave how he feels.
So I wonder if JB has ever been seen by an educational psychologist? It might also explain his poor performance at school and his extremely unfortunate handwriting. Extremely unfortunate: identical, in fact, to several serial killers?!)
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Apparently people who commit Familicide usually do so after a massive down-turn in their fortunes, so that they can no longer cope with the shame, guilt, humiliation of the outcome. I can't see that JB had suffered such misfortunes nearly so much as the girl whose modelling career was over, whose marriage was over, whose genetic mother rejected her after meeting her and who was struggling to look after her children.
If it was JB it was surely for money - or to be rid of an annoying bunch of people.
The unfortunate fact is, it could have been either of them. It is also worth bearing in mind that plenty of people - particularly at that immature age - say they hate their parents (some every day when they are teenagers!). Quite possibly JB did hate his parents - but that doesn't mean he killed them.
You are surrounded by psychopaths: they are everywhere! Most of them don't murder their families however :-)
I heartily recommend this little book for some further insight - into yourselves as well!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/In-Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Manipulative/dp/1935166301/ref=dp_ob_title_bk
Also, if you've ever had Valium you'll know how serene it can make you feel. The photo of him looking directly at the camera was taken, I believe, whilst he was being taken out after questioning - after a long day of that, probably without Valium, I'd say he looks a lot more concerned. I think if you watch clips on YouTube of him being yanked around in handcuffs you can wonder if these still of the same events are truly representative of what he looked like.
I have a little theory about Aspergers Syndrome: I know some people think this is trotted out as a tired excuse all the time, but I have autism in my own family and have done A LOT of research on the subject in the last 5 years as it greatly affected my life. Reading the snippets of police interviews someone has posted elsewhere on here, JB's answers were exactly the kind of answers my 12 year old with Aspergers would give: they are literal answers, because people with autism take what is said literally (this leads to many huge rows and a lot of silly conversations in my house!). Where he says 'no comment' is wherever he has tried to fathom the ineptly-posed question but given up. This accounts for the answers seeming so Smart-Alec. And the dumb-ass remark in court saying "that's what you have to establish" (a turn of phrase I believe his lawyer also used?) - that response is the sort of thing my husband would say (he would also be dumb enough to enter the house via a window rather than delay his objective by getting the keys, and he would also be idiot enough to TELL the police all this under caution in an interview if he had done nothing wrong so would see nothing wrong with it - lack of theory of mind means they don't realise other people don't know what they know, and they know what they did was harmless). This could also account for many people finding the way he was behaving as 'odd': he wouldn't know how he was expected behave, and would behave how he feels.
So I wonder if JB has ever been seen by an educational psychologist? It might also explain his poor performance at school and his extremely unfortunate handwriting. Extremely unfortunate: identical, in fact, to several serial killers?!)
I'm not sure SC's birth mother, Christine, rejected her? She may not have been in a position to offer the sort of relationship SC was looking for as she lived in Canada and her life with her family was there. I guess someone in SC's vulnerable state could perceive this as a rejection of sorts.
JB obtained 7 O levels at Greshams. No indication of the grades to determine whether his educational achievements were above or below the average countrywide. He flunked two A levels. Having corresponded a little with JB I would describe his writing skills on par with my own. I haven't noticed any problems with spelling or handwriting. Yes he writes in capitals but he wrote like that pre-prison and I think its just a style.
Are you maybe getting muddled with dyslexia and Aspergers Syndrome? They are quite different. Dyslexia is problems with reading and writing although these people normally score high on IQ tests. Aspergers is difficulty with social skills. I don't see JB having AS. By all accounts he was somewhat of a babe magnet and quite successful chatting up women which is the sort of thing someone with AS would struggle with.
It seems to me JB had a very good relationship with NB. Had been close to SC but found her mental illness difficult to understand. Was very fond of the twins as most adults would be. But like SC he had a difficult relationship with June who imo should never had been approved to adopt based on her long history of psychiatric problems before SC or JB were even conceived. There can be little doubt June was a very decent person on all fronts and I am sure well intentioned when she adopted SC and JB but the fact remains she should not have been approved to adopt based on her history.
I don't think there's anything particularly strange about JB's behaviour during his police interviews or at trial. How do any of us know how we would react if we lost our entire immediate family and were then accused of murdering them. We also have to look at JB's background ie being adopted and going to boarding school. I'm not saying there's anything sinister there but these things shape a person and if he's a little different, or perceived to be different, then this might account for that. Most people aren't adopted and don't attend boarding school. An analogy might be Prince William who is unique because he was born to be a king and no other male in this country apart from Charles was born to be king!
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Having corresponded a little with JB I would describe his writing skills on par with my own. I haven't noticed any problems with spelling or handwriting. Yes he writes in capitals but he wrote like that pre-prison and I think its just a style.
YOU MUST BE PSYCHOPATHIC!
Definitely something creepy, as most children in the 1960's were taught to write in longhand, and did so throughout their teenage years and beyond.
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YOU MUST BE PSYCHOPATHIC!
Definitely something creepy, as most children in the 1960's were taught to write in longhand, and did so throughout their teenage years and beyond.
At least JB's letters are legible unlike say many of the witness statements from police officers and experts:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=174.msg1783#msg1783
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=260.msg4425#msg4425
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=229.0;attach=782
Perhaps it was something that was encouraged at Greshams as his handwriting was poor. Or perhaps its just a style that for whatever reason he chose to adopt. It's really silly to suggest there's something sinister in it.
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At least JB's letters are legible unlike say many of the witness statements from police officers and experts:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=174.msg1783#msg1783
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=260.msg4425#msg4425
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=229.0;attach=782
Perhaps it was something that was encouraged at Greshams as his handwriting was poor. Or perhaps its just a style that for whatever reason he chose to adopt. It's really silly to suggest there's something sinister in it.
Personally, I think that it's massively sinister that he writes in shouty capitals. And why, after 30 years with nothing much else to do, has he still not bothered to learn to spell or punctuate?
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Personally, I think that it's massively sinister that he writes in shouty capitals. And why, after 30 years with nothing much else to do, has he still not bothered to learn to spell or punctuate?
I would want to SHOUT if I was communicating with Mike over getting a psychic involved. He seems quite annoyed in that letter which does contain a couple of spelling mistakes. I've just found his letters easy to understand and haven't thought too much about them other than am I handling a piece of paper from a monster or the victim of a terrible injustice. I always wash my hands afterwards with anti-bacterial wash 8(8-)) There's always that nagging doubt &%+((£
According to CAL's book he is about to embark on an OU course in Filosophy. Perhaps he's getting Filosophical about his predicament 8)-)))
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He certainly hasn't come over as SHOUTY in the letters I have received from him. I would describe them as pleasant, light, cheerful, polite, interested, aware.
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I would want to SHOUT if I was communicating with Mike over getting a psychic involved. He seems quite annoyed in that letter which does contain a couple of spelling mistakes. I've just found his letters easy to understand and haven't thought too much about them other than am I handling a piece of paper from a monster or the victim of a terrible injustice. I always wash my hands afterwards with anti-bacterial wash 8(8-)) There's always that nagging doubt &%+((£
According to CAL's book he is about to embark on an OU course in Filosophy. Perhaps he's getting Filosophical about his predicament 8)-)))
Ah yes. Mike's "psychic". Ali Bongo. AKA his sister's bloke, Pete.
WHAT a wanky episode that was!
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He certainly hasn't come over as SHOUTY in the letters I have received from him. I would describe them as pleasant, light, cheerful, polite, interested, aware.
Well, thank goodness for that! And there was me, worrying about the little scamp!
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People with Aspergers often have terrible handwriting: they have difficulty making the pen do what they want it to, my son's school has given him touch-typing lessons with a view to letting him work using a laptop in future if necessary. He can type really fast, is a genius with Lego, but something goes wrong when pen goes to paper. As a consequence quite a few older people who haven't had educational support find it easier and clearer to write in Capitals, where the lines are straighter and there aren't fiddly joiners.
Aspies can be super-flirtatious and very chatty and social: bit of a misconception there that he'd find it hard talking to people. If he's on the Spectrum he'll be high functioning: his problem would be not seeing nuance and not predicting the logical social outcome of what he is saying - he would have found the moods of a needy demanding woman like Mugford very hard to understand. You have to tell them clearly what you want, not expect them to guess - or they guess wrong. If he was innocent he will just have assumed all he has to do is turn up, they have to prove him guilty - which as he's not they won't - and everything will be fine. It won't have occurred to him that the legal system isn't about who is right or wrong, it's about who is smartest.
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People with Aspergers often have terrible handwriting: they have difficulty making the pen do what they want it to, my son's school has given him touch-typing lessons with a view to letting him work using a laptop in future if necessary. He can type really fast, is a genius with Lego, but something goes wrong when pen goes to paper. As a consequence quite a few older people who haven't had educational support find it easier and clearer to write in Capitals, where the lines are straighter and there aren't fiddly joiners.
Aspies can be super-flirtatious and very chatty and social: bit of a misconception there that he'd find it hard talking to people. If he's on the Spectrum he'll be high functioning: his problem would be not seeing nuance and not predicting the logical social outcome of what he is saying - he would have found the moods of a needy demanding woman like Mugford very hard to understand. You have to tell them clearly what you want, not expect them to guess - or they guess wrong. If he was innocent he will just have assumed all he has to do is turn up, they have to prove him guilty - which as he's not they won't - and everything will be fine. It won't have occurred to him that the legal system isn't about who is right or wrong, it's about who is smartest.
My mother has Aspergers. Fiercely intelligent, emotionally bankrupt, beautiful handwriting.
I guess we shouldn't generalise! 8)-)))
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I'm not generalising: my other kid has full blown autism and the best handwriting in the family - because he's had support for it. I suspect I'm on the spectrum myself - I used to write in beautiful copperplate. The handwriting was just one possible indicator: as you know, the trouble with the spectrum is the nuances from one diagnosis to the next!
It was the directness of his answers that struck me. I could well imagine my husband or son giving the same ones!
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I'm not generalising: my other kid has full blown autism and the best handwriting in the family - because he's had support for it. I suspect I'm on the spectrum myself - I used to write in beautiful copperplate. The handwriting was just one possible indicator: as you know, the trouble with the spectrum is the nuances from one diagnosis to the next!
It was the directness of his answers that struck me. I could well imagine my husband or son giving the same ones!
May I clear up some untruths about Jeremy. First of all he does not have Aspergers and is not anywhere on the Autistic Spectrum. I assume you have never had any contact with Jeremy or spoken to him. I know him very well, have visited him on numerous occasions and spend many hours on the telephone with him. He is as far away from Autism or Aspergers as you can get. In fact when I have been with him it has been difficult to believe that we are in a prison setting. He is a very intelligent, witty and sociable man and has coped remarkably well during his 30 years of incarceration.
As far as his handwriting goes, there is nothing sinister or shouty about his writing. He had mild Dyslexia as a child and found it easier to write in capitals in order to visualise the words. Actually a lot of men have untidy handwriting, my husband included. Jeremy has learned to cope with Dyslexia but still makes the odd spelling mistake. He has spent so long writing in capitals that it has become a habit now. He has written to me in lower case and his handwriting is legible but a little untidy.
Please don't make assumptions about people who you don't know or who have never met.
None of the above proves whether he is innocent or guilty but I feel the need to protect him when people make comments which are passed from person and then are accepted as fact.
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Thank you for your reply Daisy: I didn't know he had dyslexia but that gives credence to what I'm saying, I suspect he may have learning disabilities which have caused him not to present himself as well as he might (especially in this modern age of 'spin', selfies and social media, which he has missed). I think he has definitely suffered from people judging a book by its cover and is lucky to have people like you who are protective of him.
But I think also your perceptions of Aspergers are a bit too stereotypical too: none of the characteristics you describe preclude him from being on the high functioning end of the autism spectrum - thousands of people don't realise they have it (it was a hell of a shock when it landed in our family - we thought we were all perfectly normal - that's why we hadn't spotted it ?{)(** )
To me, the answers he gives in the police interviews which other people have said were arrogant, just seem like he's trying to answer factually but can't quite understand what they are trying to get out of him - the person doing the questions doesn't exactly phrase them very well either. They sound like a classic pre-ding dong chat round my dining table ;-)
There is a body of work out there investigating the differences and similarities between autistes, sociopaths and psychopaths, which have their own little spectrum as well: people were much more judgemental and ignorant in the 80s about other people's slight differences. Inoticed elsewhere that Ann Eaton used his thank you card from the flowers as evidence - possibly trying to link it to the capital lettered graffiti in the cupboard: from what you have said it shows how little she must have known the family if she didn't know it was his usual writing?
No matter how nice you are about him, there is no getting away from the fact he was a complete Klutz the way he handled some things, which as he seems to be an intelligent man he must surely now recognise and regret. So are you certain he has been tested for Aspergers? It wouldn't be the same as tests for psychopathy I don't think.
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PS Daisy: he'd be in good company if he was!
http://incorrectpleasures.blogspot.co.uk/2006/09/referenced-list-of-famous-or-important.html (http://incorrectpleasures.blogspot.co.uk/2006/09/referenced-list-of-famous-or-important.html)
I feel vindicated: I've always said I thought Gordon Brown was on the spectrum. Personally I think Margaret Thatcher should be there too. Bummer about Adolf Hitler 8()-000(
But seriously, it could explain why other people found his attitude a bit . . . off
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Testing Jeremy these days is pointless as any psychiatrist will point out. Thirty years in a Cat A prison will change a prisoner regardless of how strong he was when first consigned to custody. Jeremy is remarkable in that he has consistently claimed innocence over all these years whereas most people would have accepted their fate by now. The evidence does not support his claims however and that is the important issue in all of this.
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Well I have to say, he has served the original sentence plus 5 years and the evidence is hardly incontrovertible.
I just feel deeply unhappy that anyone can be locked up for whole life tariff when there is a secret file of undisclosed evidence and all the original exhibits lost or destroyed: it besmirches the whole justice system of this country. And it has to be said, the newer evidence to be released shows how shaky the original evidence was, which backs his claims of a stitch up during a Golden Era of British Police Stitch-Ups.
I don't think he would be convicted if there was a retrial with the newer information as well, and I don't think it would be just because the jury thinks it's 'not proven', either. There is far too much doubt in this case and the burden of proof is meant to rest with the prosecution, not the defence. law Courts aren't meant to convict people because 'he looks the type!'.
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Well I have to say, he has served the original sentence plus 5 years and the evidence is hardly incontrovertible.
I just feel deeply unhappy that anyone can be locked up for whole life tariff when there is a secret file of undisclosed evidence and all the original exhibits lost or destroyed: it besmirches the whole justice system of this country. And it has to be said, the newer evidence to be released shows how shaky the original evidence was, which backs his claims of a stitch up during a Golden Era of British Police Stitch-Ups.
I don't think he would be convicted if there was a retrial with the newer information as well, and I don't think it would be just because the jury thinks it's 'not proven', either. There is far too much doubt in this case and the burden of proof is meant to rest with the prosecution, not the defence. law Courts aren't meant to convict people because 'he looks the type!'.
You must have been reading some of Mike Teskos crap. There is no secret evidence file, the stuff kept under PII relates to events after the murder. There is no doubt in the Bamber case so I suggest you do a tad more reading.
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=77.msg526#msg526
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I haven't read any "Mike Tesko crap": the only context I've ever come arose him is in unfavourable comments about him on here. Could you expand?
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I haven't read any "Mike Tesko crap": the only context I've ever come arose him is in unfavourable comments about him on here. Could you expand?
Your reference to secret evidence is typically the sort of stuff we constantly hear from his minuscule band of internet warriors. No offence meant.
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Unequivocally more information has been released, and was therefore held in secret. Your post is pretty offensive actually: I've never discussed the topic with anyone else before. Your previous link to umpteen reasons why it could not be Sheila: they were pretty subjective.
I had thought this was a forum where things were discussed, but you seem keen to shut down debate.
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Thank you for your reply Daisy: I didn't know he had dyslexia but that gives credence to what I'm saying, I suspect he may have learning disabilities which have caused him not to present himself as well as he might (especially in this modern age of 'spin', selfies and social media, which he has missed). I think he has definitely suffered from people judging a book by its cover and is lucky to have people like you who are protective of him.
But I think also your perceptions of Aspergers are a bit too stereotypical too: none of the characteristics you describe preclude him from being on the high functioning end of the autism spectrum - thousands of people don't realise they have it (it was a hell of a shock when it landed in our family - we thought we were all perfectly normal - that's why we hadn't spotted it ?{)(** )
To me, the answers he gives in the police interviews which other people have said were arrogant, just seem like he's trying to answer factually but can't quite understand what they are trying to get out of him - the person doing the questions doesn't exactly phrase them very well either. They sound like a classic pre-ding dong chat round my dining table ;-)
There is a body of work out there investigating the differences and similarities between autistes, sociopaths and psychopaths, which have their own little spectrum as well: people were much more judgemental and ignorant in the 80s about other people's slight differences. Inoticed elsewhere that Ann Eaton used his thank you card from the flowers as evidence - possibly trying to link it to the capital lettered graffiti in the cupboard: from what you have said it shows how little she must have known the family if she didn't know it was his usual writing?
No matter how nice you are about him, there is no getting away from the fact he was a complete Klutz the way he handled some things, which as he seems to be an intelligent man he must surely now recognise and regret. So are you certain he has been tested for Aspergers? It wouldn't be the same as tests for psychopathy I don't think.
Perhaps immaturity and naivety.
I think if JB had suffered any mental illness, personality disorder or cognitive problems it would have been identified when psychiatric reports were compiled post trial or during ongoing assessments. If he had learning difficulties then it would have been picked up at Greshams. I don't see any evidence of dyslexia in his letters. I've worked alongside Oxbridge graduates with first class honours degrees and some have been poor spellers with equally poor handwriting but not dyslexic. (I was their tea lady).
If you are interested in autistic spectrum disorders you might be interested in books etc by Prof Simon Baron-Cohen. In the following vid he explains the differences between those with zero empathy which include psychopaths and those on the autistic spectrum. Psychopaths are often cruel and those with ASD are not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_nCTGSfWE
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Unequivocally more information has been released, and was therefore held in secret. Your post is pretty offensive actually: I've never discussed the topic with anyone else before. Your previous link to umpteen reasons why it could not be Sheila: they were pretty subjective.
I had thought this was a forum where things were discussed, but you seem keen to shut down debate.
According to CAL's book P399 all documents previously held under PII have now been released to JB. Personally I think JB is p*****g in the wind if he thinks he's going to strike gold rummaging through documents. The only way his case can move in a different direction will be as a result of new forensic evidence capable of challenging the prosecutions case.
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Unequivocally more information has been released, and was therefore held in secret. Your post is pretty offensive actually: I've never discussed the topic with anyone else before. Your previous link to umpteen reasons why it could not be Sheila: they were pretty subjective.
I had thought this was a forum where things were discussed, but you seem keen to shut down debate.
As I stated in my post, no offence meant. This constant regurgitation of a claim of hidden evidence is very tiresome. Everything is known about the White House Farm murders sufficient to say categorically that Jeremy Bamber did it.
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According to CAL's book P399 all documents previously held under PII have now been released to JB. Personally I think JB is p*****g in the wind if he thinks he's going to strike gold rummaging through documents. The only way his case can move in a different direction will be as a result of new forensic evidence capable of challenging the prosecutions case.
I agree about the 'pissing in the wind' but you cannot blame a chap for trying. After all what has he got to lose?
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Perhaps immaturity and naivety.
I think if JB had suffered any mental illness, personality disorder or cognitive problems it would have been identified when psychiatric reports were compiled post trial or during ongoing assessments. If he had learning difficulties then it would have been picked up at Greshams. I don't see any evidence of dyslexia in his letters. I've worked alongside Oxbridge graduates with first class honours degrees and some have been poor spellers with equally poor handwriting but not dyslexic. (I was their tea lady).
If you are interested in autistic spectrum disorders you might be interested in books etc by Prof Simon Baron-Cohen. In the following vid he explains the differences between those with zero empathy which include psychopaths and those on the autistic spectrum. Psychopaths are often cruel and those with ASD are not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_nCTGSfWE
Thank you Holly: I have a child with severe autism and one with aspergers, I've read pretty much every book and every article on the net ;-)
It was Simon Baron-Cohen's work on the difference between people with autism and psychopaths which I thought might be relevant: I wonder if JB might dare be examined by him?! Most research and understanding of ASD has only occurred in the last 15 years: it would not have been picked up at Greshams. Einstein had it don't forget: it's not a measure of intelligence, nor is it an illness - more a 'differently wired brain'. In fact I'd say the understanding of autism has accelerated just in the 5 years I've known about. It's usually diagnosed by an educational psychologist which means it might be a different speciality/set of tick boxes.
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I would say that Jeremy was more predisposed to sociopathy than he was to psychopathy.
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I would say that Jeremy was more predisposed to sociopathy than he was to psychopathy.
I agree, Angelo.
In my opinion, his Adoptive mother also possessed all the traits of a Sociopath.
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Perhaps immaturity and naivety.
I think if JB had suffered any mental illness, personality disorder or cognitive problems it would have been identified when psychiatric reports were compiled post trial or during ongoing assessments. If he had learning difficulties then it would have been picked up at Greshams. I don't see any evidence of dyslexia in his letters. I've worked alongside Oxbridge graduates with first class honours degrees and some have been poor spellers with equally poor handwriting but not dyslexic. (I was their tea lady).
If you are interested in autistic spectrum disorders you might be interested in books etc by Prof Simon Baron-Cohen. In the following vid he explains the differences between those with zero empathy which include psychopaths and those on the autistic spectrum. Psychopaths are often cruel and those with ASD are not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_nCTGSfWE
From:- White house farm murders….
Professor Egan found that Jeremy was not suffering from “clinical psychopathy or even mild psychopathy” Nor did he have any personality disorders. His risk assessment results placed him “in the “low” band for a final risk of violence judgment”
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Sociopathy/lack of empathy is the main hindrance in life for people with ASD: not picking up the right signals, the nuances, having to learn the correct response/behaviour instead of it coming intuitively. People at the high functioning end blend in because they learn the most 'etiquette' but in unusual circumstances, where they have no prior pattern to follow, they tend to do things that seem slightly 'off' or completely unfathomable to neurotypical people. When they're aware they can't cope and don't know what to do, they adopt a familiar routine or do something that they think acts as a cover but doesn't. If my husband isn't coping socially he might suddenly decide to do the ironing, for example, or washing the kitchen windows - stuff he wouldn't normally do but it gives him an excuse not to talk to visitors who bore him (and so just looks rude 8(8-)) )
JB's genetic father is an Army Officer, which statistically is another major red flag. (My husband was too ;-) )
His response to the deaths was to take on the admin of the farm - mid-harvest and people on weekly wages that was critical - ask the secretary to tidy the office paperwork, ask his cousin to be Farm Manager, organise money and legal documents - and abdicate responsibility for everything unusual/personal to his female relatives and friends (AE seemed more than happy to barge in and take over!). When someone dies there is a huge amount of admin: when my mother died my father, who has been the executor of umpteen other people's wills and organised lots of funerals, went completely to pieces - he left pretty much everything to me. We also ate out a lot because all the talking and decisions meant we weren't so good at doing the grocery shopping and it was just quicker,messier and frankly a relief to go to the village pub: I has never occurred to me other people would find that odd/lacking in empathy/disrespectful?
The fact JB has never be shown to have any mental health issues (which are different to ASD) makes him different, yet again, to most of the other prisoners on a whole-life tariff. A large component of the belief he committed the murders seems to rely on 'give a dog a bad name and hang him'. I really don't find his behaviour too odd, in this day and age when we are more accepting of differences.
I think one of his biggest mistakes was being influenced by Brett Collins, who sounds like a conman who took for a ride: I wonder how much that Meissen clock REALLY fetched . . . ? Was it him, staying in SC's flat, who found the topless modelling photos and took them to Fleet Street I wonder. JB doesn't seem to be a very good judge of character (other flag for ASD).
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From:- White house farm murders….
Professor Egan found that Jeremy was not suffering from “clinical psychopathy or even mild psychopathy” Nor did he have any personality disorders. His risk assessment results placed him “in the “low” band for a final risk of violence judgment”
As far as I am aware the jury were unaware of June's complete mental health history. They were told about her breakdown in 1982 which seems to have been attributed to religious mania. They were told nothing about 1955 and 1958/9 and the root causes ie her inability to bear her own biological children and adopting her first child.
Dr Ferguson states in his interview with CAL that he was glad after all it wasn't SC. Well of course he would be because if the jury had swung the other way his professional judgement would have been put under the spotlight. Never mind being glad surely anyone in his position, ie consultant psychiatrist, would think we have adoptive parents, adopted siblings from different birth families and yet we end up with:
- adoptive mother breakdown: 1955, 1958, 1982
- adopted daughter breakdown: 1983 and 1985
- adopted son found guilty of murdering the above, his adoptive father and his adopted sister's twin sons: 1986
If that isn't a red flag to say there was something darker and deeper at work than plain old greed and hatred I don't what is &%+((£
Adoptions during the so-called baby scoop era were based on societal stigma to illegitimacy. Unlike nowadays where the very few babies put up for adoption are usually as a result of social services removing them due to the risk of abuse and neglect. These babies are more likely to develop problems later on in life due to for example pregnant mothers being addicted to drink and drugs and harming the foetus. Both SC and JB come from good genetic stock. There doesn't seem to be any history of mental illness in June's side of the family? &%+((£
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Sociopathy/lack of empathy is the main hindrance in life for people with ASD: not picking up the right signals, the nuances, having to learn the correct response/behaviour instead of it coming intuitively. People at the high functioning end blend in because they learn the most 'etiquette' but in unusual circumstances, where they have no prior pattern to follow, they tend to do things that seem slightly 'off' or completely unfathomable to neurotypical people. When they're aware they can't cope and don't know what to do, they adopt a familiar routine or do something that they think acts as a cover but doesn't. If my husband isn't coping socially he might suddenly decide to do the ironing, for example, or washing the kitchen windows - stuff he wouldn't normally do but it gives him an excuse not to talk to visitors who bore him (and so just looks rude 8(8-)) )
JB's genetic father is an Army Officer, which statistically is another major red flag. (My husband was too ;-) )
His response to the deaths was to take on the admin of the farm - mid-harvest and people on weekly wages that was critical - ask the secretary to tidy the office paperwork, ask his cousin to be Farm Manager, organise money and legal documents - and abdicate responsibility for everything unusual/personal to his female relatives and friends (AE seemed more than happy to barge in and take over!). When someone dies there is a huge amount of admin: when my mother died my father, who has been the executor of umpteen other people's wills and organised lots of funerals, went completely to pieces - he left pretty much everything to me. We also ate out a lot because all the talking and decisions meant we weren't so good at doing the grocery shopping and it was just quicker,messier and frankly a relief to go to the village pub: I has never occurred to me other people would find that odd/lacking in empathy/disrespectful?
The fact JB has never be shown to have any mental health issues (which are different to ASD) makes him different, yet again, to most of the other prisoners on a whole-life tariff. A large component of the belief he committed the murders seems to rely on 'give a dog a bad name and hang him'. I really don't find his behaviour too odd, in this day and age when we are more accepting of differences.
I think one of his biggest mistakes was being influenced by Brett Collins, who sounds like a conman who took for a ride: I wonder how much that Meissen clock REALLY fetched . . . ? Was it him, staying in SC's flat, who found the topless modelling photos and took them to Fleet Street I wonder. JB doesn't seem to be a very good judge of character (other flag for ASD).
JB's birth father was in positions of leadership within the army. This normally requires a high degree of emotional intelligence something that those on the ASD struggle with?
Sociopathy and lack of empathy are care completely different in terms of ASD.
Those with ASD struggle with empathy as they are unable to put themselves in the shoes of others but generally they are the one group lacking in empathy where it does not lead to acts of cruelty or anti-social behaviour. Interestingly the banker who was convicted yesterday for rigging the Libor rate was said to suffer from mild Aspergers Syndrome.
Sociopathy is acting in an anti-social way.
Personally I don't see JB as anything other than main stream. Most of us have foibles, quirks and idiosyncrasies 8()-000( It's what makes us all different and unique?
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A large component of the belief he committed the murders seems to rely on 'give a dog a bad name and hang him'. I really don't find his behaviour too odd, in this day and age when we are more accepting of differences.
No, I don't accept that unless you mean people who base their opinion on newspaper reports.
For anyone who has studied the evidence Jeremy Bamber has to be guilty.
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No Holly: the Army is choc-full with people on the spectrum. Statistically there is a greater chance of having ASD if one or both parents are in the Army, or are doctors, lawyers, architects, computer programmers or engineers etc - all occupations that require a speciality in learning and apply a set of schemes and rules. In the Srmy the do loads and loads if drills to learn how to respond to diverse situations: they don't even have to look at someone's face, they can just look at the badges on their arm to find out about them!
Everyone thinks they are perfectly normal until they find out they are not *&*%£
But as you've met the guy and I haven't I'll go with your judgement: I just thought that might explain his 'odd' behaviour after the deaths. In that case I've changed my mind once again on the guilt front I'm afraid (I dare say I'll change it back again later!). In that case his pattern of behaviour does rather fit with other male family annihilators.
Then again SC's fit in with the pattern for female ones . . .
8(8-))
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No Holly: the Army is choc-full with people on the spectrum. Statistically there is a greater chance of having ASD if one or both parents are in the Army, or are doctors, lawyers, architects, computer programmers or engineers etc - all occupations that require a speciality in learning and apply a set of schemes and rules. In the Srmy the do loads and loads if drills to learn how to respond to diverse situations: they don't even have to look at someone's face, they can just look at the badges on their arm to find out about them!
Everyone thinks they are perfectly normal until they find out they are not *&*%£
But as you've met the guy and I haven't I'll go with your judgement: I just thought that might explain his 'odd' behaviour after the deaths. In that case I've changed my mind once again on the guilt front I'm afraid (I dare say I'll change it back again later!). In that case his pattern of behaviour does rather fit with other male family annihilators.
Then again SC's fit in with the pattern for female ones . . .
8(8-))
Blimey difficulty keeping up with all the posts at the moment!
One of the reasons I don't believe JB suffered with ASD is that his initial WS shows a lot of awareness of others and their circumstances etc? He sounds like a male with a higher degree of emotional intelligence than the average, maybe?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5631.msg200221#msg200221
I'm not sure there are positive correlations between occupations and ASD? Or the occupations of parents and their offspring having a propensity towards ASD?
I think any grief counsellor will tell you that there's no right or wrong way to behave post loss/tragic event etc. We have both commented on AE's actions re re-making the twins' beds. And Colin Caffell acknowledges in his book that his moods swung from laughter to sadness in the immediate aftermath. AE and RB spent most of their time in the immediate aftermath carrying out their own investigations into the tragedy at WHF rather than grieving for their lost relatives.
I haven't met with JB or had any contact with him other than around 8 pieces of correspondence over 3.5 years. He seems quite open though so if you think he might suffer with ASD then why not write and ask him? He doesn't seem like the type to take offence easily.
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I'm sorry: it's going round and round my head so I thought I'd share the experience with you! 8(*(
I think there's a lot of misappreciation of how fully integrated into society someone with ASD can be, so that neither they, nor someone not well versed in it, would realise. All the top figures in the computing world, for example, from Steve Jobs to Bill Gates, have ASD.
Someone with ASD can build up encyclopaedic knowledge of other people (that's what a very clever Aspie invented Facebook for) but not pick up on the fact that, for example, they are annoying their best friend or have just dropped a social clanger. If they do upset someone, they will probably be oblivious to the fact and astonished if told and then either express incredulity or regret depending on their self confidence. Their responses are learned by observation. They aren't automatons: they have the full range of emotions, they are perfectly capable of understanding that others have them as well, they will hug you if you are crying, but they tend to need to relate what you are feeling by imagining how they would feel if it was them (for this reason my eldest can't bear watching anything other than factual TV programmes).
The key thing they miss is facial expressions and little social cues. I can think of 3 family members who have said really angrily out loud 'WHAT ARE YOU KICKING ME FOR?!' and 'STOP NUDGING ME!' on multiple occasions @)(++(*
Ever watched Benedict Cumberbatch in Sherlock?
I might suggest to the lawyer that he have Simon Baron-Cohen check him out, but I'm not keen on the idea of sending my address to a prison. If it were me, I'd be courting JM: if JB is innocent she is the one means by which he might definitively prove it.
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I'm sorry: it's going round and round my head so I thought I'd share the experience with you! 8(*(
I think there's a lot of misappreciation of how fully integrated into society someone with ASD can be, so that neither they, nor someone not well versed in it, would realise. All the top figures in the computing world, for example, from Steve Jobs to Bill Gates, have ASD.
Someone with ASD can build up encyclopaedic knowledge of other people (that's what a very clever Aspie invented Facebook for) but not pick up on the fact that, for example, they are annoying their best friend or have just dropped a social clanger. If they do upset someone, they will probably be oblivious to the fact and astonished if told and then either express incredulity or regret depending on their self confidence. Their responses are learned by observation. They aren't automatons: they have the full range of emotions, they are perfectly capable of understanding that others have them as well, they will hug you if you are crying, but they tend to need to relate what you are feeling by imagining how they would feel if it was them (for this reason my eldest can't bear watching anything other than factual TV programmes).
The key thing they miss is facial expressions and little social cues. I can think of 3 family members who have said really angrily out loud 'WHAT ARE YOU KICKING ME FOR?!' and 'STOP NUDGING ME!' on multiple occasions @)(++(*
Ever watched Benedict Cumberbatch in Sherlock?
I might suggest to the lawyer that he have Simon Baron-Cohen check him out, but I'm not keen on the idea of sending my address to a prison. If it were me, I'd be courting JM: if JB is innocent she is the one means by which he might definitively prove it.
I wasn't aware that Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg have been formally diagnosed with Apergers? I'm not denying such a condition exists but I think it has become easy to label those a bit geeky, one dimensional and focused as having Asperger's?
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I wasn't aware that Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg have been formally diagnosed with Apergers? I'm not denying such a condition exists but I think it has become easy to label those a bit geeky, one dimensional and focused as having Asperger's?
Temple Grandin, who is considered the poster-girl for the subject, reckons Steve Jobs was and the former Head of Engineering at Facebook has said Mark Zuckerberg has. To me it's plain as a pike staff: I don't see how anyone could claim they don't (http://don't) have it!?
In a minute we will have our wrists slapped by John for going off topic, so I'd better wrap it by saying that if you are a bit geeky, one dimensional and focused and under the age of about 15 you are quite likely in the running nowadays for a diagnosis of Aspergers. It is far more common than has been realised, and most people aren't happy to announce the diagnosis because of its negative connotations, that's why it is called 'an invisible disability'.
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Steve Jobs had aspergers? Someones havng a laugh.
Couldnt be further from it.
"Poster girl" btw passerby doesn't actually say that
http://www.inc.com/kimberly-weisul/temple-grandin-on-happy-aspies-autism-and-startups.html
Though she does talk some crap in general
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Blimey O'Reilly, I just watched a programme about Christopher Porco.
SO many parallels between him and Bamber.