UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on June 25, 2018, 03:56:01 PM
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When police chief Paulo Rebelo took over the investigation from Gonçalo Amaral he attempted a reconstitution of the events which occurred the evening that Madeleine McCann disappeared. In the event however, as most of the English witnesses refused to travel back to Praia da Luz to take part in the reconstitution, it never happened.
Was this a crucial opportunity lost forever?
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He was firmly behind a reconstitution and the requestioning of the McCann’s friends. You don’t requestion people you believe have told you everything they know.
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IMO the reconstitution was not about trying to find Madeleine but only about finding evidence to pin the blame on the parents, therefore why would anyone in their right minds have agreed to take part in it, being asked to reenact a series of deeply traumatic events in the hope that something comes out of it to reinforce the police’s belief that you or your friends are involved.
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He was firmly behind a reconstition and the requestioning of the McCann’s friends. You don’t requestion people you believe have told you everything they know.
Alternatively maybe he did believe their version of events but needed to cement that belief, for his superiors, by reconstructing the timeline.
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Then you must agree the reconstitution was not about trying to find Madeleine but only about finding evidence to pin the blame on the parents, therefore why would anyone in their right minds have agreed to take part in it, being asked to reenact a series of deeply traumatic events in the hope that something comes out of it to reinforce the police’s belief that you or your friends are involved.
That’s a different topic altogether and if you want to discuss that can I suggest that you open another thread ?
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You asked whether any of Amaral’s thinking could be trusted ( to paraphrase) I merely pointed out that Rebelo appeared to agree with him on the big issues.
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You asked whether any of Amaral’s thinking could be trusted ( to paraphrase) I merely pointed out that Rebelo appeared to agree with him on the big issues.
We have no information whatsoever on Rebelo’s thinking so your post is pure speculation.
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So why do you think he requested a reconstitution and requestioning of the friends ?
As to him being a footnote, he was the coordinator longer than Amaral..
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IMO the reconstitution was not about trying to find Madeleine but only about finding evidence to pin the blame on the parents, therefore why would anyone in their right minds have agreed to take part in it, being asked to reenact a series of deeply traumatic events in the hope that something comes out of it to reinforce the police’s belief that you or your friends are involved.
Isn't that the whole point of the reconstitution, to establish who is telling the truth, who is lying and who if anyone should be charged?
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From memory it was ....... who was the only one who flatly refused to attend. Of all the people, it is hard pressed to say what she did so wrong that she would refuse to go.
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Isn't that the whole point of the reconstitution, to establish who is telling the truth, who is lying and who if anyone should be charged?
I don’t see how that could have been established when there are so many minor variables from so many different witnesses. Can you actually envisage an outcome from a reconstitution in this case which would have established either who was tellng the truth or who was lying and who should be charged? Because I certainly can’t. Furthermore, I personally find it rather offensive and cruel to make the victims of a traumatic crime (yes - victims, for that’s what I think they are, not body occulters and co-conspirators) re-live the experience simply to satisfy the police that they are telling the truth. You may as well throw them in a river and see if they drown to establish their innocence for the good this reconstitution would have achieved. IMO.
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I don’t see how that could have been established when there are so many minor variables from so many different witnesses. Can you actually envisage an outcome from a reconstitution in this case which would have established either who was tellng the truth or who was lying and who should be charged? Because I certainly can’t. Furthermore, I personally find it rather offensive and cruel to make the victims of a traumatic crime (yes - victims, for that’s what I think they are, not body occulters and co-conspirators) re-live the experience simply to satisfy the police that they are telling the truth. You may as well throw them in a river and see if they drown to establish their innocence for the good this reconstitution would have achieved. IMO.
Personal incredulity couple with an appeal to emotion. You don’t appear to be addressing the fact that the PJ wanted to do a reconstitution as provided for in the Portuguese Legal System, and this did not happen as elements within the T9 questioned its purpose and refused to attend. It’s not a question of what good was it, it is more a question of what harm it would do. No stone unturned.
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Personal incredulity couple with an appeal to emotion. You don’t appear to be addressing the fact that the PJ wanted to do a reconstitution as provided for in the Portuguese Legal System, and this did not happen as elements within the T9 questioned its purpose and refused to attend. It’s not a question of what good was it, it is more a question of what harm it would do. No stone unturned.
The Portuguese Legal System is an ass IMO, and I have given a reason why I think it would have done more harm than good. Please feel free to categorize my response in any way you see fit.
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I don’t see how that could have been established when there are so many minor variables from so many different witnesses. Can you actually envisage an outcome from a reconstitution in this case which would have established either who was tellng the truth or who was lying and who should be charged? Because I certainly can’t. Furthermore, I personally find it rather offensive and cruel to make the victims of a traumatic crime (yes - victims, for that’s what I think they are, not body occulters and co-conspirators) re-live the experience simply to satisfy the police that they are telling the truth. You may as well throw them in a river and see if they drown to establish their innocence for the good this reconstitution would have achieved. IMO.
I think you underestimate the resilience of this particular couple. They continued to follow the same routine after their daughter disappeared without appearing to be upset by her absence at all.
20th May 2007
17.00-17.30 Meet kids for high tea with other mums and dads. They love pasta and have been doing really well with their vegetables although a few chips have been squeezed in.
17.30-18.30. Games with kids at play area. Amelie loves trying to get in the baby pool!
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/DAYS_1_to_50.htm
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well why not do the reconstruction - for the benefit of maddie.
Yes they kept there routine - even twins back in creche
I Can't see how you can keep up a routine they did - when your little girl going through god knows what.
Eating sleeping life carrying on as normal - imo to normal.
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well why not do the reconstruction - for the benefit of maddie.
Yes they kept there routine - even twins back in creche
I Can't see how you can keep up a routine they did - when your little girl going through god knows what.
Eating sleeping life carrying on as normal - imo to normal.
Yes I know you are another poster who believes they appeared not to be upset by their daughters disappearance.
I believe you have posted your opinion before about how little they appeared to care about their child's disappearance.
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VS seems to think that the 'traumatised victims' would have suffered by being made to 'relive the experience'. On what basis does he make that emotive assumption? I simply pointed out that reliving their evening routine with Madeleine appears not to have affected them a mere 17 days after her disappearance. I also saw no sign of trauma when Gerry McCann took part in his own reconstruction.
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Yes I know you are another poster who believes they appeared not to be upset by their daughters disappearance.
I believe you have posted your opinion before about how little they appeared to care about their child's disappearance.
Yes - because that is my opinion.
Didn't they do some sort of reconstruction - when it suited them.
Wasn't there flaws in that little clip when gmccann and jtanner disagreed who was standing where.
IMO if they were all stating their honest recollection - they would have nothing to fear.
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VS seems to think that the 'traumatised victims' would have suffered by being made to 'relive the experience'. On what basis does he make that emotive assumption? I simply pointed out that reliving their evening routine with Madeleine appears not to have affected them a mere 17 days after her disappearance. I also saw no sign of trauma when Gerry McCann took part in his own reconstruction.
Were you a witness to every moment of their lives after Madeleine's abduction (imo) .
Were you with them 24/7?
How can you possibly know enough to state that they appeared not to be upset by their daughter's disappearance?
I assume you are saying that their daughters disappearance did not cause them upset?
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Were you a witness to every moment of their lives after Madeleine's abduction (imo) .
Were you with them 24/7?
How can you possibly know enough to state that they appeared not to be upset by their daughter's disappearance?
I assme you are saying that their daughters disappearance did not cause them upset?
Were you?
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I think you underestimate the resilience of this particular couple. They continued to follow the same routine after their daughter disappeared without appearing to be upset by her absence at all.
20th May 2007
17.00-17.30 Meet kids for high tea with other mums and dads. They love pasta and have been doing really well with their vegetables although a few chips have been squeezed in.
17.30-18.30. Games with kids at play area. Amelie loves trying to get in the baby pool!
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/DAYS_1_to_50.htm
Do you think that continuing with some semblance of normal routine for the twins’ sake is on a par with getting them to re-enact the most traumatic night of their lives, seriously?
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Do you think that continuing with some semblance of normal routine for the twins’ sake is on a par with getting them to re-enact the most traumatic night of their lives, seriously?
Well it depends what happened that night - as yet we don't know do we.
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VS seems to think that the 'traumatised victims' would have suffered by being made to 'relive the experience'. On what basis does he make that emotive assumption? I simply pointed out that reliving their evening routine with Madeleine appears not to have affected them a mere 17 days after her disappearance. I also saw no sign of trauma when Gerry McCann took part in his own reconstruction.
I seem to remember Jane Tanner being roundly mocked for crying at same wasn’t she?
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well why not do the reconstruction - for the benefit of maddie.
Yes they kept there routine - even twins back in creche
I Can't see how you can keep up a routine they did - when your little girl going through god knows what.
Eating sleeping life carrying on as normal - imo to normal.
There was no question that the McCann couple had to attend as they were arguido. It was the other 8 that tried to pull out IMO.
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Do you think that continuing with some semblance of normal routine for the twins’ sake is on a par with getting them to re-enact the most traumatic night of their lives, seriously?
Depends what you are willing to do to assist the investigation into your daughters disappearance?
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There was no question that the McCann couple had to attend as they were arguido. It was the other 8 that tried to pull out.
I think they did more than try.
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Depends what you are willing to do to assist the investigation into your daughters disappearance?
If you know you had nothing to do with it, then re-enacting that night’s events would have done nothing whatsoever to progress the case, but could have actually put your own situation in jeopardy. If you refuse to understand that then I can’t help you.
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I think they did more than try.
It was rather difficult to select a date that satisfied 10 different individuals. In the end I think the PJ just gave up on the idea.
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If you know you had nothing to do with it, then re-enacting that night’s events would have done nothing whatsoever to progress the case, but could have actually put your own situation in jeopardy. If you refuse to understand that then I can’t help you.
As long as you understand that many feel that not helping the investigation casts doubt on the events of that evening.
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It was rather difficult to select a date that satisfied 10 different individuals. In the end I think the PJ just gave up on the idea.
The T9 collectively did not ensure that they all made themselves available. IMO an appeal by the McCanns to the T7 to attend, would I am sure have been successful.
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The T9 collectively did not ensure that they all made themselves available. IMO an appeal by the McCanns to the T7 to attend, would I am sure have been successful.
I think if the PJ had issued summonses to each of the people asked to attend that would have been more successful.
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I think if the PJ had issued summonses to each of the people asked to attend that would have been more successful.
I doubt they had the authority.
If they had organised it for a week after the event, that would have been a different matter
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As long as you understand that many feel that not helping the investigation casts doubt on the events of that evening.
But that's of no importance.... IMO the T9 didn't trust the PJ....if the PJ had done a, proper job SY wouldn't be be there now... All my opinion
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I doubt they had the authority.
If they had organised it for a week after the event, that would have been a different matter
I know there was threats of issuing summonses.
"Having read the attached letter, there appears to be a shift in the nature and the tone of the request for the re-enactment from something informal and friendly to a formal summons. We do not understand the laws that are being quoted and thus feel it is essential to seek legal advice.
We want to make it absolutely clear that we are NOT refusing to take part in this re-enactment.
Kind regards
Fiona and David Payne"
and
"((Two attachments of replies from : a) (Matt) to PJ Summons 21st...., and b) Reply (Rachael) to PJ Summons...., inserted here))
Please see attached letters in response to the summons we have received."
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But that's of no importance.... IMO the T9 didn't trust the PJ....if the PJ had done a, proper job SY wouldn't be be there now... All my opinion
Which means that doubts about attending were of no importance either.
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I seem to remember Jane Tanner being roundly mocked for crying at same wasn’t she?
It was not clear from the footage whether Tanner was crying at the ‘abduction’ or going all that way to be humiliated by Gerry.
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Which means that doubts about attending were of no importance either.
No importance to you but very important ti the T9 in avoiding themselves being the subject of a miscarriage of justice
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I think you underestimate the resilience of this particular couple. They continued to follow the same routine after their daughter disappeared without appearing to be upset by her absence at all.
20th May 2007
17.00-17.30 Meet kids for high tea with other mums and dads. They love pasta and have been doing really well with their vegetables although a few chips have been squeezed in.
17.30-18.30. Games with kids at play area. Amelie loves trying to get in the baby pool!
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/DAYS_1_to_50.htm
They had two other very young children, and presumably had to make life seem as "normal" as possible in the circumstances. What IYO should they have done? Ignore them?
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No importance to you but very important ti the T9 in avoiding themselves being the subject of a miscarriage of justice
...and how would that happen?
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It was not clear from the footage whether Tanner was crying at the ‘abduction’ or going all that way to be humiliated by Gerry.
"Humiliated by Gerry"??
Jane didn't seem to have a problem stating that she knew they disagree about where they thought they were standing.
That happens. People's recollections of the same events do differ and what did he say that she could have perceived as "humiliating"?
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...and how would that happen?
The same way that every other miscarriage of justice happens.... The, T9 simply did not trust the, PJ... IMO..
Were members still under investigation at that time
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From memory it was ....... who was the only one who flatly refused to attend. Of all the people, it is hard pressed to say what she did so wrong that she would refuse to go.
I don't believe for a minute that this was down to one person Rob. IMO the tapas group would have discussed going back to Portugal among themselves to varying degrees and come up with an appropriate response.
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I don’t see how that could have been established when there are so many minor variables from so many different witnesses. Can you actually envisage an outcome from a reconstitution in this case which would have established either who was tellng the truth or who was lying and who should be charged? Because I certainly can’t. Furthermore, I personally find it rather offensive and cruel to make the victims of a traumatic crime (yes - victims, for that’s what I think they are, not body occulters and co-conspirators) re-live the experience simply to satisfy the police that they are telling the truth. You may as well throw them in a river and see if they drown to establish their innocence for the good this reconstitution would have achieved. IMO.
It can be an extremely useful tool when used properly. It is the investigators job to get to the truth irrespective of feelings.
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The same way that every other miscarriage of justice happens.... The, T9 simply did not trust the, PJ... IMO..
Were members still under investigation at that time
That doesn't answer the question. What was there about a reconstitution that could cause a miscarriage of justice? What part of the events that night were they worried about?
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There was no question that the McCann couple had to attend as they were arguido. It was the other 8 that tried to pull out IMO.
The point being that if the tapas group refused to attend then there wasn't much point in the arguidos being there.
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They had two other very young children, and presumably had to make life seem as "normal" as possible in the circumstances. What IYO should they have done? Ignore them?
I never did understand why they left the twins so soon after losing their sister to go on their European tour. Can you imagine your distress as a child for you sibling to disappear and then your parents ? There was nothing that the visits achieved in the way of publicity that wasn’t being achieved already via the worldwide media.
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The T9 collectively did not ensure that they all made themselves available. IMO an appeal by the McCanns to the T7 to attend, would I am sure have been successful.
I have to agree but the converse is also true IMO.
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That doesn't answer the question. What was there about a reconstitution that could cause a miscarriage of justice? What part of the events that night were they worried about?
We have been over this many times... Innocent people can incriminate themselves and innocent people get jailed
Added to this they did not trust the PJ.. Imo
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We have been over this many times... Innocent people can incriminate themselves and innocent people get jailed
Not usually innocent people with the best lawyers someone else’s money can buy though.
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We have been over this many times... Innocent people can incriminate themselves and innocent people get jailed
Added to this they did not trust the PJ.. Imo
How are they going to incriminate themselves? if you think it is possible you must have an idea?
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The T9 collectively did not ensure that they all made themselves available. IMO an appeal by the McCanns to the T7 to attend, would I am sure have been successful.
The wise understand what went on in private.
"As a group, they are waiting to see if Gerry and Kate McCann will be invited to attend and participate in the re-enactment. It is my understanding that if Gerry and Kate do not participate in this process, then the decision will be that they will not attend." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm
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It was not clear from the footage whether Tanner was crying at the ‘abduction’ or going all that way to be humiliated by Gerry.
"humiliated by Gerry" is all in your mind, IMO. When I watched that programme for the first time I detected no humiliation, but as always you see what you want to see.
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It can be an extremely useful tool when used properly. It is the investigators job to get to the truth irrespective of feelings.
Would you ask an alleged rape victim or victim of a kidnap and attempted murder to take part in a reconstruction of their assault?
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That doesn't answer the question. What was there about a reconstitution that could cause a miscarriage of justice? What part of the events that night were they worried about?
Well let's see. How about they take part in a reconstitution but the PJ struggle to make all the disparate times marry together into a completely cohesive narrative, despite trying over and over again to do so. What should the investigators glean from this in your view?
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I think you underestimate the resilience of this particular couple. They continued to follow the same routine after their daughter disappeared without appearing to be upset by her absence at all.
20th May 2007
17.00-17.30 Meet kids for high tea with other mums and dads. They love pasta and have been doing really well with their vegetables although a few chips have been squeezed in.
17.30-18.30. Games with kids at play area. Amelie loves trying to get in the baby pool!
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/DAYS_1_to_50.htm
I have no idea of why my response to this post has been deleted.?
I suggested that the twins were being kept in as possible a normal routine as could be carried out.
I also suggested that I found the inference that Madeleine's parents did not appear upset by their daughters disappearance to be unpleasant.
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I don't believe for a minute that this was down to one person Rob. IMO the tapas group would have discussed going back to Portugal among themselves to varying degrees and come up with an appropriate response.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm
In the emails presented in the file she is the only one who definitely says she is not going.
"We gather that Rachel has already contacted you saying they won't be returning for any re-enactment. Once again, it seems an academic matter if there is not going to be 100% attendance."
"Dear Sir,
I write with reference to the Notification dated 9th May 2008, which I received on Saturday 17th May 2008.
I am hereby informing you that I will not be attending the proposed Reconstruction in Portugal on 29th and 30th May 2008. I have reached this decision after considering advice from our Lawyers.
Yours faithfully,
Rachael Marimma Jean Mampilly"
In this next bit it says they all have refused but I don't believe there are emails supporting that view.
"Prosecutor of the Republic
Portimao Circuit
CONCLUSION on 26-5-2008
As referred to by the despatch that ordered the Reconstruction, in spite of this being considered a very important diligence for the investigation, it would only take place if the witnesses who were notified were present as well as the arguidos who had expressed their availability to participate. The witnesses Russell O'Brien, Jane Tanner, Matthew Oldfield and Rachel Mampilly have informed the process that they will not attend, therefore the reconstruction has no sense."
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Were you a witness to every moment of their lives after Madeleine's abduction (imo) .
Were you with them 24/7?
How can you possibly know enough to state that they appeared not to be upset by their daughter's disappearance?
I assume you are saying that their daughters disappearance did not cause them upset?
How could VS possibly know how the couple were going to feel? He couldn't, could he, but it seems sympathetic speculation attracts no outrage. Strange that.
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They had two other very young children, and presumably had to make life seem as "normal" as possible in the circumstances. What IYO should they have done? Ignore them?
So because they played after high tea for four days on holiday it became a vital part of normal life? I never said they should ignore the twins, you did. I wondered why it seemed like it wasn't too painful to do the same things with two kids that used to be done with three.
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How could VS possibly know how the couple were going to feel? He couldn't, could he, but it seems sympathetic speculation attracts no outrage. Strange that.
The difference is in my opinion that the norm would be that the parents of a missing child would be upset by her disappearance.
You suggest that the McCanns are abnormal.
Going out now.
A former colleague is retiring and the children are performing some songs etc for her.
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That doesn't answer the question. What was there about a reconstitution that could cause a miscarriage of justice? What part of the events that night were they worried about?
I don't think they were worried about any part of the night... I think they were worried about the motives of the pj
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So because they played after high tea for four days on holiday it became a vital part of normal life? I never said they should ignore the twins, you did. I wondered why it seemed like it wasn't too painful to do the same things with two kids that used to be done with three.
You are making a, gross assumption that it wasn't painful
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How could VS possibly know how the couple were going to feel? He couldn't, could he, but it seems sympathetic speculation attracts no outrage. Strange that.
Why should sympathetic speculation attract outrage? And where did I claim to know how they would feel anyway?
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You are making a, gross assumption that it wasn't painful
No mention of doubts or painful memories in Gerry's blog entry. He sounded positively lighthearted.
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No mention of doubts or painful memories in Gerry's blog entry. He sounded positively lighthearted.
So for whatever reason his, daughter is gone.... Almost certainly dead... And you think he sounds light-hearted...
What is your explanation for that... Do you think he, simply doesn't care about his, daughter
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So for whatever reason his, daughter is gone.... Almost certainly dead... And you think he sounds light-hearted...
What is your explanation for that... Do you think he, simply doesn't care about his, daughter
Gerry's blog was about recording events as they happened, not his deepest thoughts and feelings and fears - this is now being used against him as proof of his alleged "light heartedness" . Absolutely typical behaviour of the critics.
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At the end of June, the first cloud appeared. A Portuguese journalist called Jes's mobile (he had left his number with the Portuguese police). The journalist, who was writing for a magazine called Sol, called Jes incessantly. We both work in television and cannot claim to be green about the media, but this was a new experience. Jes learned this the hard way. Torn between politeness and wanting to get the journalist off the line without actually saying anything, he had to put the phone down, but he had already said too much. Her article pitched the recollections of "Jeremy Wilkins, television producer" against those of the "Tapas Nine", the group of friends, including the McCanns, whom we had nicknamed the Doctors. The piece was published at the end of June. Throughout July, Sol's testimony meant Jes became incorporated into all the Madeleine chronologies. More clouds began to gather - this time above our house.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
In December 2007 Bridget O'Donnell described the events she and Jes Wilkins had experienced at the hands of the media as a result of Jes's brief conversation with Jerry McCann on May 3rd.
These are as she pointed out, two individuals who themselves could be considered media savvy but who were taken aback. What chance did the McCann friends have given the far more intense scrutiny they were exposed to when two media professionals were left struggling by it?
Worth noting that Jes had left his mobile number with the Portuguese police and it was a Portuguese Journalist who used it to make contact with him.
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In August, the doorbell rang. The man was from the Daily Mail. He asked if Jes was in (he wasn't). After he left I spent an anxious evening analysing what I had said, weighing up the possible consequences. The Sol article had brought the Daily Mail; what would happen next? Two days later, the Mail came for Jes again. This time they had computer printout pictures of a bald, heavy-set man seen lurking in some Praia da Luz holiday snaps. The chatroom implication was that the man was Madeleine's abductor. There was talk on the web, the reporter insinuated, that this man might be Jes. I laughed at the ridiculousness of it all and then realised he was serious. I looked at the pictures, and it wasn't Jes.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
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Once, Jes's father looked him up on the internet and found that "Jeremy Wilkins, television producer" was referenced on Google more than 70,000 times. There was talk that he was a "lookout" for Gerry and Kate; there was talk that Jes was orchestrating a reality-TV hoax and Madeleine's disappearance was part of the con; there was talk that the Tapas Nine were all swingers. There was a lot of talk.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
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Quietly, we began to worry that Jes might be next in line for some imagined blame or accusation. On a Saturday night in September, he received a call: we were on the front page of the News of the World. They had surreptitiously taken photographs of us, outside the house. There were no more details. We went to bed, but we could not sleep. "Maddie: the secret witness," said the headline, "TV boss holds vital clue to the mystery." Unfortunately, Jes does not hold any such vital clues. In November, he inched through the events of that May night with Leicestershire detectives, but he saw nothing suspicious, nothing that would further the investigation. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
Is it any wonder that Jes Wilkins had real cause for concern about returning to Luz to participate in a reconstitution?
Is it any wonder that faced with the prevailing attitudes of the time with so much filth being written about them that the McCann friends were anxious about their safety and well being?
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Throughout all this, I have always believed that Gerry and Kate McCann are innocent. When they were made suspects, when they were booed at, when one woman told me she was "glad" they had "done it" because it meant that her child was safe, I began to write this article - because I was there, and I believe that woman is wrong. There were no drug-fuelled "swingers" on our holiday; instead, there was a bunch of ordinary parents wearing Berghaus and worrying about sleep patterns. Secure in our banality, none of us imagined we were being watched. One group made a disastrous decision; Madeleine was vulnerable and was chosen. But in the face of such desperate audacity, it could have been any one of us. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
Jes and Bridget were there at the time in question and have first hand experience of the events and the people involved.
In my opinion what Bridget has written must carry a lot of weight.
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For a professional writer, she does write a load of codswallop - IMO.
Doesn't she realise that Madeleine was specially chosen by some religious nut group and therefore none of the other children were at any risk?
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For a professional writer, she does write a load of codswallop - IMO.
Doesn't she realise that Madeleine was specially chosen by some religious nut group and therefore none of the other children were at any risk?
Which bits specifically are “codswallop” and why, in your view?
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Gerry's blog was about recording events as they happened, not his deepest thoughts and feelings and fears - this is now being used against him as proof of his alleged "light heartedness" . Absolutely typical behaviour of the critics.
The fact is gunit has no explanation for his seemingly lighthearted behaviour.... Which thesis would it fit... None
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According to the prosecutors the lack of this diligence was a lost opportunity for the McCanns;
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
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According to the prosecutors the lack of this diligence was a lost opportunity for the McCanns;
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
All it would take for you to never have to repeat this bit of the legal summary again is to give a coherent analysis of how taking part in the reconstitution would have proved the parents' innocence. If it really is as simple as that, it should be very simple to explain.
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According to the prosecutors the lack of this diligence was a lost opportunity for the McCanns;
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
are these the ones who didnt understand the archiving process
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All it would take for you to never have to repeat this bit of the legal summary again is to give a coherent analysis of how taking part in the reconstitution would have demonstrated the parents' innocence. If it really is as simple as that, it should be very simple to explain.
I have no idea what the result would have been and neither have you. Even if I had one, my opinion carries no more weight than yours does. The opinions of the T7 are also immaterial. The facts are that;
The PJ had every right to request a reconstitution.
The T7 refused, and the Prosecutors had every right to draw conclusions about the consequences.
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Dear god, one minute the McCann's are behaving weird and not caring about Madeleine because they are playing with their twins, next they are not caring about the twins because they are flying off to put posters up in countries where they thought Madeleine had been taken to, to help find her.
It seems whatever they do is wrong there will always be something to beat them up about.
They are not being strange and uncaring playing with their twins, they probably felt guilty they weren't getting their attention and wanted to spend time with them to make up for all the time they hadn't been there for them. Who wants small children seeing their parents crying and behaving how the McCann's were when Madeleine disappeared? THAT would have been upsetting for them. They kept their routine up so that they could carry on with their holiday and enjoy themselves as small children should. They told them that Madeleine was missing when they asked where she was and that people were looking for her, which is all they would be able to understand, in the meantime they let them know that they were there for them.
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I have no idea what the result would have been and neither have you. Even if I had one, my opinion carries no more weight than yours does. The opinions of the T7 are also immaterial. The facts are that;
The PJ had every right to request a reconstitution.
The T7 refused, and the Prosecutors had every right to draw conclusions about the consequences.
All it requires is for one to think it through calmly, carefully and logically to arrive at a conclusion. I’m not bothered about how much my or your opinion weighs, but I am interested for someone (anyone) to explain how a reconstitution could have PROVED innocence. In my opinion that would have been impossible, if you disagree I’d love to know why.
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All it requires is for one to think it through calmly, carefully and logically to arrive at a conclusion. I’m not bothered about how much my or your opinion weighs, but I am interested for someone (anyone) to explain how a reconstitution could have PROVED innocence. In my opinion that would have been impossible, if you disagree I’d love to know why.
The reconstitution was to try and find out what happened to Madeleine and what opportunities there were for it to happen. While ever people are uncooperative there is suspicion about them having something to hide.
Murat appears to have cooperated fully and appears to have been “cleared”.
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The reconstitution was to try and find out what happened to Madeleine and what opportunities there were for it to happen. While ever people are uncooperative there is suspicion about them having something to hide.
Murat appears to have cooperated fully and appears to have been “cleared”.
so has murat proved his innocence...portuguese style...I dont think the mccanns had anything to hide
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The reconstitution was to try and find out what happened to Madeleine and what opportunities there were for it to happen. While ever people are uncooperative there is suspicion about them having something to hide.
Murat appears to have cooperated fully and appears to have been “cleared”.
Did Murat take part in a reconstitution? How has he been cleared? Cite please. You have not explained how a reconstitution would have cleared the McCanns (who were not uncooperative incidentally).
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Imagine the McCanns did know what happened to Madeleine, but rather than disappear her over dinner they waited until the middle of the night whilst they were as far as anyone was to know, fast asleep in their beds. Would they have had to take part in a reconstitution to prove their innocence?
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Dear god, one minute the McCann's are behaving weird and not caring about Madeleine because they are playing with their twins, next they are not caring about the twins because they are flying off to put posters up in countries where they thought Madeleine had been taken to, to help find her.
It seems whatever they do is wrong there will always be something to beat them up about.
They are not being strange and uncaring playing with their twins, they probably felt guilty they weren't getting their attention and wanted to spend time with them to make up for all the time they hadn't been there for them. Who wants small children seeing their parents crying and behaving how the McCann's were when Madeleine disappeared? THAT would have been upsetting for them. They kept their routine up so that they could carry on with their holiday and enjoy themselves as small children should. They told them that Madeleine was missing when they asked where she was and that people were looking for her, which is all they would be able to understand, in the meantime they let them know that they were there for them.
Except they didn’t spend time with them. One afternoon after Madeleine disappeared they were even too busy to make sure their remaining children were picked up from the kids club.
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Except they didn’t spend time with them. One afternoon after Madeleine disappeared they were even too busy to make sure their remaining children were picked up from the kids club.
In a meeting about Madeleine weren't they? You know the missing daughter you said they didn't seem to care about.
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Except they didn’t spend time with them. One afternoon after Madeleine disappeared they were even too busy to make sure their remaining children were picked up from the kids club.
”they didn’t spend time with them”. What, never?
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The reconstitution was to try and find out what happened to Madeleine and what opportunities there were for it to happen. While ever people are uncooperative there is suspicion about them having something to hide.
Murat appears to have cooperated fully and appears to have been “cleared”.
Jeremy Wilkins couldn't go to the reconstruction either, work commitments I think.
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In a meeting about Madeleine weren't they? You know the missing daughter you said they didn't seem to care about.
Surely not?! Faithlilly would have you believe they were off having so much fun they completely forgot about the twins.
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All it requires is for one to think it through calmly, carefully and logically to arrive at a conclusion. I’m not bothered about how much my or your opinion weighs, but I am interested for someone (anyone) to explain how a reconstitution could have PROVED innocence. In my opinion that would have been impossible, if you disagree I’d love to know why.
Do you seriously believe the objective of a reconstitution was to prove innocence or guilt?
Show us where in the Manual Tactics, Standard Operating Procedure, Mandatory Procedure call it what you will, it says that.
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All it requires is for one to think it through calmly, carefully and logically to arrive at a conclusion. I’m not bothered about how much my or your opinion weighs, but I am interested for someone (anyone) to explain how a reconstitution could have PROVED innocence. In my opinion that would have been impossible, if you disagree I’d love to know why.
In my opinion you need to get over your obsession with opinions.
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Do you seriously believe the objective of a reconstitution was to prove innocence or guilt?
Show us where in the Manual Tactics, Standard Operating Procedure, Mandatory Procedure call it what you will, it says that.
According to the prosecutors the lack of this diligence was a lost opportunity for the McCanns;
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
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In my opinion you need to get over your obsession with opinions.
Why?
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In my opinion you need to get over your obsession with opinions.
Forum rules require the caveat to be made when expressing an opinion.
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Do you seriously believe the objective of a reconstitution was to prove innocence or guilt?
Show us where in the Manual Tactics, Standard Operating Procedure, Mandatory Procedure call it what you will, it says that.
Could it have been a consequence?
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According to the prosecutors the lack of this diligence was a lost opportunity for the McCanns;
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
How does that address my question?
"Do you seriously believe" was how the question started.
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are these the ones who didnt understand the archiving process
Yep! The same ones you love to quote about 'no evidence'.
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Forum rules require the caveat to be made when expressing an opinion.
IMO what makes a discussion forum interesting is not regurgitating chunks of the case files and “wondering “ about them, it’s the sharing and exchangingof opinions and debating that keep it lively. It seems there is a move to stamp down on this, so I would like to know if we are moving to a position on this forum where stating opinions and asking other members for their views is going to be against the rules? It seems to make some people very uncomfortable.
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How does that address my question?
"Do you seriously believe" was how the question started.
I seriously believe that the reconstitution was a last ditch attempt to confirm to the PJ that the McCanns and their friends were involved in the disappearance , what do you think, if I may be so bold as to ask your opinion?
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In a meeting about Madeleine weren't they? You know the missing daughter you said they didn't seem to care about.
Firstly I didn’t say they didn’t care about Madeleine. Secondly just because your daughter is missing it does not excuse you from not knowing who is picking up your remaining children.
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Yep! The same ones you love to quote about 'no evidence'.
Yes... No evidence
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IMO what makes a discussion forum interesting is not regurgitating chunks of the case files and “wondering “ about them, it’s the sharing and exchangingof opinions and debating that keep it lively. It seems there is a move to stamp down on this, so I would like to know if we are moving to a position on this forum where stating opinions and asking other members for their views is going to be against the rules? It seems to make some people very uncomfortable.
Feel free to treat us all to your opinions, just don't demand to know what others think.
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Feel free to treat us all to your opinions, just don't demand to know what others think.
Ridiculous hyperbole. Cite where I demanded to know your opinion, or apologise.
ETA: is this what passes as a demand now?
“In my opinion that would have been impossible, if you disagree I’d love to know why”.
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Ridiculous hyperbole. Cite where I demanded to know your opinion, or apologise.
ETA: is this what passes as a demand now?
“In my opinion that would have been impossible, if you disagree I’d love to know why”.
Just stop asking.
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Just stop asking.
No I won’t, not until instructed that asking another’s opinion is against forum rules.
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Just stop asking.
That's asking as well - there is nothing wrong with asking.
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No I won’t, not until instructed that asking another’s opinion is against forum rules.
You can ask, at the moment no one has to answer.
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You can ask, at the moment no one has to answer.
I’ve been instructed by another forum member not to ask others’ opinion - delighted I have your permission to keep on asking.
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I’ve been instructed by another forum member not to ask others’ opinion - delighted I have your permission to keep on asking.
Just don’t get upset if you don’t get an answer.
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Just don’t get upset if you don’t get an answer.
I’ve asked you a couple of questions on this thread which you have studiously ignored. I didn’t have any expectation whatsoever of receiving a reply so don’t you worry your head about me getting upset.
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I’ve asked you a couple of questions on this thread which you have studiously ignored. I didn’t have any expectation whatsoever of receiving a reply so don’t you worry your head about me getting upset.
Remind me?
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Remind me?
i didnt know we were under arrest do we have to answer questions on demand now?? @)(++(*
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Remind me?
No, do the work yourself, I’m not wasting my time on a fool’s errand.
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I seriously believe that the reconstitution was a last ditch attempt to confirm to the PJ that the McCanns and their friends were involved in the disappearance , what do you think, if I may be so bold as to ask your opinion?
My opinion is the PJ had taken, listened to, recorded [in the wider sense of the word] statements of the main protagonists and found them to be wanting in enough respects to raise suspicion, a point raised within the archiving process.I suspect the PJ used software, we were lead to believe they did not have, to create "timeway diagrams" of the stated movements of the protagonists which reinforced their suspicion. Given there is a requirement to hold such reconstitution is there a time limit placed on it ? I "don't subscribe to the theory "well they would've (of?) fitted 'em up had they gone wouldn't they" That is too Gene Hunt for words.
In the event an opportunity for the PJ to progress the case was denied.
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My opinion is the PJ had taken, listened to, recorded [in the wider sense of the word] statements of the main protagonists and found them to be wanting in enough respects to raise suspicion, a point raised within the archiving process.I suspect the PJ used software, we were lead to believe they did not have, to create "timeway diagrams" of the stated movements of the protagonists which reinforced their suspicion. Given there is a requirement to hold such reconstitution is there a time limit placed on it ? I "don't subscribe to the theory "well they would've (of?) fitted 'em up had they gone wouldn't they" That is too Gene Hunt for words.
In the event an opportunity for the PJ to progress the case was denied.
IMO once the police have formed their suspicions, then they are looking for further confirmation of their suspicions, not for any evidence to let their suspects off the hook. That is why, if you are innocent (which I believe the Tapas group to be) you won’t be eager to play into the police’s hands, because something which may have simply been a genuine recall error (and many witnesses make them in their statements) could end up being used to further reinforce the case the police are building against you. At no point would a reconstitution have “proved their innocence”. it simply would not have been possible to do that, nor would it have helped to find Madeleine. So, from the point of view of parents and friends innocent of hiding the child’s body, a reconstitution would have been at best a complete waste of time, at worst a threat to their future liberty. IMO. Now ridicule away, as is your wont.
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Dear god, one minute the McCann's are behaving weird and not caring about Madeleine because they are playing with their twins, next they are not caring about the twins because they are flying off to put posters up in countries where they thought Madeleine had been taken to, to help find her.
It seems whatever they do is wrong there will always be something to beat them up about.
They are not being strange and uncaring playing with their twins, they probably felt guilty they weren't getting their attention and wanted to spend time with them to make up for all the time they hadn't been there for them. Who wants small children seeing their parents crying and behaving how the McCann's were when Madeleine disappeared? THAT would have been upsetting for them. They kept their routine up so that they could carry on with their holiday and enjoy themselves as small children should. They told them that Madeleine was missing when they asked where she was and that people were looking for her, which is all they would be able to understand, in the meantime they let them know that they were there for them.
Accusing forum members of beating up the McCanns is an attack and untrue. emotive language in abundance...
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IMO what makes a discussion forum interesting is not regurgitating chunks of the case files and “wondering “ about them, it’s the sharing and exchangingof opinions and debating that keep it lively. It seems there is a move to stamp down on this, so I would like to know if we are moving to a position on this forum where stating opinions and asking other members for their views is going to be against the rules? It seems to make some people very uncomfortable.
in embolden,
No, it is just boring. and you do it to attack upon attack on certain members...
The opportunity was lost along with a real chance to see what could have happened in what timescale at least.
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in embolden,
No, it is just boring. and you do it to attack upon attack on certain members...
The opportunity was lost along with a real chance to see what could have happened in what timescale at least.
another false accusation for which no evidence will be provided, and no apology forthcoming. That’s just par for the course I guess...
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another false accusation for which no evidence will be provided, and no apology forthcoming. That’s just par for the course I guess...
If you read your posts you will see the evidence quite clearly. You twist and turn sentences and accuse people of thinking this or that ... The fact is you have no real valid argument to offer when challenged about some of the McCanns behaviour.
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If you read your posts you will see the evidence quite clearly. You twist and turn sentences and accuse people of thinking this or that ... The fact is you have no real valid argument to offer when challenged about some of the McCanns behaviour.
And all your posts addressed to me are an attack or accusation of one sort or another, so are you the pot or the kettle?
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At the end of June, the first cloud appeared. A Portuguese journalist called Jes's mobile (he had left his number with the Portuguese police). The journalist, who was writing for a magazine called Sol, called Jes incessantly. We both work in television and cannot claim to be green about the media, but this was a new experience. Jes learned this the hard way. Torn between politeness and wanting to get the journalist off the line without actually saying anything, he had to put the phone down, but he had already said too much. Her article pitched the recollections of "Jeremy Wilkins, television producer" against those of the "Tapas Nine", the group of friends, including the McCanns, whom we had nicknamed the Doctors. The piece was published at the end of June. Throughout July, Sol's testimony meant Jes became incorporated into all the Madeleine chronologies. More clouds began to gather - this time above our house.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
In December 2007 Bridget O'Donnell described the events she and Jes Wilkins had experienced at the hands of the media as a result of Jes's brief conversation with Jerry McCann on May 3rd.
These are as she pointed out, two individuals who themselves could be considered media savvy but who were taken aback. What chance did the McCann friends have given the far more intense scrutiny they were exposed to when two media professionals were left struggling by it?
Worth noting that Jes had left his mobile number with the Portuguese police and it was a Portuguese Journalist who used it to make contact with him.
It was Sol who got the Tapas booking and decided that all 14 bottles of wine were for the McCanns. I wouldn't be surprise if a lot of people still believe that to this day - how many people would bother going through the files to see if it was true or not?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2040.0
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According to the prosecutors the lack of this diligence was a lost opportunity for the McCanns;
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Have you worked out how it could prove them innocent? I really don't see how.
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Have you worked out how it could prove them innocent? I really don't see how.
The exercise was not to prove them innocent or guilty! This has been explained in previous pages.
They were claiming to be innocent by explaining what happened that night, and they had the opportunity to show how what they said was true. If all the witness statements tied in with the Tapas statements.
There was a huge reward on offer...not many would pass up that chance to point the finger at someone!
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IMO once the police have formed their suspicions, then they are looking for further confirmation of their suspicions, not for any evidence to let their suspects off the hook. That is why, if you are innocent (which I believe the Tapas group to be) you won’t be eager to play into the police’s hands, because something which may have simply been a genuine recall error (and many witnesses make them in their statements) could end up being used to further reinforce the case the police are building against you. At no point would a reconstitution have “proved their innocence”. it simply would not have been possible to do that, nor would it have helped to find Madeleine. So, from the point of view of parents and friends innocent of hiding the child’s body, a reconstitution would have been at best a complete waste of time, at worst a threat to their future liberty. IMO. Now ridicule away, as is your wont.
It appears to be leaving a stone unturned.
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The exercise was not to prove them innocent or guilty! This has been explained in previous pages.
They were claiming to be innocent by explaining what happened that night, and they had the opportunity to show how what they said was true. If all the witness statements tied in with the Tapas statements.
There was a huge reward on offer...not many would pass up that chance to point the finger at someone!
The only thing I can think of was that they all eagerly turn up and see if it was possible to for the PJ to organise a re-enactment.
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IMO once the police have formed their suspicions, then they are looking for further confirmation of their suspicions, not for any evidence to let their suspects off the hook. That is why, if you are innocent (which I believe the Tapas group to be) you won’t be eager to play into the police’s hands, because something which may have simply been a genuine recall error (and many witnesses make them in their statements) could end up being used to further reinforce the case the police are building against you. At no point would a reconstitution have “proved their innocence”. it simply would not have been possible to do that, nor would it have helped to find Madeleine. So, from the point of view of parents and friends innocent of hiding the child’s body, a reconstitution would have been at best a complete waste of time, at worst a threat to their future liberty. IMO. Now ridicule away, as is your wont.
I don't disagree with what you are saying but "if you are innocent guilty you won’t be eager to play into the police’s hands, because something which may have simply been a genuine recall error (and many witnesses make them in their statements) could end up being used to further reinforce the case the police are building against you. .....
See how the same reasoning works both ways.
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It appears to be leaving a stone unturned.
Not from the parents point of view it doesn’t and as that is their promise to Madeleine, I don’t see why it’s necessary for you to use their promise against them.
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Not from the parents point of view it doesn’t and as that is their promise to Madeleine, I don’t see why it’s necessary for you to use their promise against them.
Because it smacks of hypocrisy to me.
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Because it smacks of hypocrisy to me.
Well it doesn't to me... That's just your opinion
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I had one deleted yesterday.
I have no idea why.
It was a fair response to an earlier post.imo.
I did post again and it remained.
Puzzling??
On occasion a perfectly valid post can be inexplicably lost as a result of being a response to a post which which has been deleted.
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On occasion a perfectly valid post can be inexplicably lost as a result of being a response to a post which which has been deleted.
The original post wasn't deleted.
Not to worry.
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Because it smacks of hypocrisy to me.
That is your opinion, but not one I share (am I allowed to say that?)
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That is your opinion, but not one I share (am I allowed to say that?)
I share your opinion.
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I share your opinion.
Now there’s a surprise.
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Now there’s a surprise.
And your response is predictably unsurprising.
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Now there’s a surprise.
And your opinion will come as no surprise either - I won’t ask it as I have been told not to but I can guess.
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Have you worked out how it could prove them innocent? I really don't see how.
There were reports of a badly told story in the beginning. Demonstrating that their account was possible, believable and left time for an abduction could have dispelled those doubts.
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Dear god, one minute the McCann's are behaving weird and not caring about Madeleine because they are playing with their twins, next they are not caring about the twins because they are flying off to put posters up in countries where they thought Madeleine had been taken to, to help find her.
It seems whatever they do is wrong there will always be something to beat them up about.
They are not being strange and uncaring playing with their twins, they probably felt guilty they weren't getting their attention and wanted to spend time with them to make up for all the time they hadn't been there for them. Who wants small children seeing their parents crying and behaving how the McCann's were when Madeleine disappeared? THAT would have been upsetting for them. They kept their routine up so that they could carry on with their holiday and enjoy themselves as small children should. They told them that Madeleine was missing when they asked where she was and that people were looking for her, which is all they would be able to understand, in the meantime they let them know that they were there for them.
They kept their routine up so that they could carry on with their holiday and enjoy themselves as small children should.
What do you mean carry on with there holiday - the holiday was finished
They was suppose to be there for maddie- - but i can see what you mean with the carrying on with holiday bit.
Why did they put the twins through all that mayhem - why didn't they just go home.
If they had wanted to keep life as normal as possible for them.
But there again can you imagine what would have happened - if they had come back to england imo.
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Can we have less of the sniping across the boards please otherwise posts are liable to be removed. Moderators have been instructed to take a zero tolerance approach to rule breaches and will remove any abusive comment on sight.
Please afford debating opponents mutual respect otherwise bans will be imposed.
Happy posting!
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You would have thought the mccanns themselves would have welcomed a reconstruction.
After all others visited the apartment - surely at that time you would trust no one.
It has been known - for family and friends to be involved in in horrendous things done to children imo
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You would have thought the mccanns themselves would have welcomed a reconstruction.
After all others visited the apartment - surely at that time you would trust no one.
It has been known - for family and friends to be involved in in horrendous things done to children imo
Are you thinking the McCann's friends were involved?
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There were reports of a badly told story in the beginning. Demonstrating that their account was possible, believable and left time for an abduction could have dispelled those doubts.
That's already been established now, following the Met's "forensic examination" of the timeline, in which they established there was time for an abductor to take Madeleine. Tapas group vindicated, shame the PJ couldn't have worked this out for themselves without demanding numerous individuals put themselves through that ordeal again.
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Are you thinking the McCann's friends were involved?
If you thought your child was abducted or went missing on a holiday.
Using the same system as the mccanns and your friends family whatever knew the children were alone.
Would you simply trust everyone automatically [they were not all close friends].
My point was though why did the mccanns - when it could have been anyone imo.
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That's already been established now, following the Met's "forensic examination" of the timeline, in which they established there was time for an abductor to take Madeleine. Tapas group vindicated, shame the PJ couldn't have worked this out for themselves without demanding numerous individuals put themselves through that ordeal again.
So you think feelings had to be put in the equation first - before finding out what happened to maddie
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There were reports of a badly told story in the beginning. Demonstrating that their account was possible, believable and left time for an abduction could have dispelled those doubts.
At the time the PJ felt they had proof Maddie died in the apartment.... Nothing the Tapas could have said or done would have any relevance to the proof the, PJ had
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IMO once the police have formed their suspicions, then they are looking for further confirmation of their suspicions, not for any evidence to let their suspects off the hook. That is why, if you are innocent (which I believe the Tapas group to be) you won’t be eager to play into the police’s hands, because something which may have simply been a genuine recall error (and many witnesses make them in their statements) could end up being used to further reinforce the case the police are building against you. At no point would a reconstitution have “proved their innocence”. it simply would not have been possible to do that, nor would it have helped to find Madeleine. So, from the point of view of parents and friends innocent of hiding the child’s body, a reconstitution would have been at best a complete waste of time, at worst a threat to their future liberty. IMO. Now ridicule away, as is your wont.
In common with others you seem to link the tapas group [T9] as though it is somekind of "legal entity".
If you wish to delineate along those sort of lines the correct split would be arguidos and non arguidos with the non arguidos where they are witnesses being the more exposed under Portuguese law.
I don't understand the rationale behind seemingly attempting to make the finding of Madeleine McCann and the apprehension of the guilty parties to her disappearance two discrete and disconnected events.
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That's already been established now, following the Met's "forensic examination" of the timeline, in which they established there was time for an abductor to take Madeleine. Tapas group vindicated, shame the PJ couldn't have worked this out for themselves without demanding numerous individuals put themselves through that ordeal again.
I wonder how they were able to confirm it was possible (at the time of day given in early May) for someone to pass two other people in the street without being seen by them? I wonder how they were able to confirm, in the same conditions, that it was possible to see what Jane Tanner claimed to have seen? Len Port wasn't convinced that she could during the McCann reconstruction.
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I wonder how they were able to confirm it was possible (at the time of day given in early May) for someone to pass two other people in the street without being seen by them? I wonder how they were able to confirm, in the same conditions, that it was possible to see what Jane Tanner claimed to have seen? Len Port wasn't convinced that she could during the McCann reconstruction.
You need to ask them
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In common with others you seem to link the tapas group [T9] as though it is somekind of "legal entity".
If you wish to delineate along those sort of lines the correct split would be arguidos and non arguidos with the non arguidos where they are witnesses being the more exposed under Portuguese law.
I don't understand the rationale behind seemingly attempting to make the finding of Madeleine McCann and the apprehension of the guilty parties to her disappearance two discrete and disconnected events.
What nonsense. I didn't even use the term T9. It has been mooted (not by me) that the group (that is all 9 of them) engaged in a "badly told story", had some sort of secrecy pact, the PJ seemed to think they all had something to hide, not me. I don't understand your last sentence either.
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The bit that I find strange is why some of the tapas group returned to Portugal in order to take part in a documentary about the event yet didn't take part in the reconstruction requested by Paulo Rebelo.
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The bit that I find strange is why some of the tapas group returned to Portugal in order to take part in a documentary about the event yet didn't take part in the reconstruction requested by Paulo Rebelo.
It's, simple... The PJ thought they could prove Maddie died in the apartment and her death was covered up.... On that proof the whole tapas group could have been arrested... The group simply didn't trust the PJ and I don't blame them... All my opinion
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It's, simple... The PJ thought they could prove Maddie died in the apartment and her death was covered up.... On that proof the whole tapas group could have been arrested... The group simply didn't trust the PJ and I don't blame them... All my opinion
Think they were lucky they could pick and choose - don't think they would have been so lucky if it happened in england imo
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Think they were lucky they could pick and choose - don't think they would have been so lucky if it happened in england imo
The UK police don't seem to doubt them.. Prob because they understand the evidence
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What nonsense. I didn't even use the term T9. It has been mooted (not by me) that the group (that is all 9 of them) engaged in a "badly told story", had some sort of secrecy pact, the PJ seemed to think they all had something to hide, not me. I don't understand your last sentence either.
I didn't say you used nthe term T9
You used the term "tapas group".
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The bit that I find strange is why some of the tapas group returned to Portugal in order to take part in a documentary about the event yet didn't take part in the reconstruction requested by Paulo Rebelo.
As play actors in the documentary they are civilians on holiday, effectively, and whatever they say /do in the documentary carries no legal weighting.
As witnesses recalled for a reconstitution? well that is a horse of another colour.
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I didn't say you used nthe term T9
You used the term "tapas group".
And this is relevant and/or important because...?
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And this is relevant and/or important because...?
I don't understand the question.
What are you defining as "This" ?
Tell me that and I'll answer.
Just so's we don't start whizzing around like a couple of demented Oozlum Birds.
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Requesting a reconstitution was perfectly acceptable and legal. The witnesses refused to attend, despite being allowed to take Consular Staff, Leicestershire Police and their lawyers with them. Highly suspicious behaviour in my opinion.
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I don't understand the question.
What are you defining as "This" ?
Tell me that and I'll answer.
Just so's we don't start whizzing around like a couple of demented Oozlum Birds.
Oh dear, you’re trying to hook me with one of your silly games again. Not playing, soz la.
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Requesting a reconstitution was perfectly acceptable and legal. The witnesses refused to attend, despite being allowed to take Consular Staff, Leicestershire Police and their lawyers with them. Highly suspicious behaviour in my opinion.
Quite reasonable IMO...
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SO who did actually refuse to take part? These are the individuals whose behaviour G-Unit thinks is highly suspicious, so let's name them now.
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Listed in post 55 of this thread . http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9756.msg470998#msg470998
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Listed in post 55 of this thread .
So are these the only individuals who refused?
Russell O'Brien, Jane Tanner, Matthew Oldfield and Rachel Mampilly
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The reconstitution was to try and find out what happened to Madeleine and what opportunities there were for it to happen. While ever people are uncooperative there is suspicion about them having something to hide.
Murat appears to have cooperated fully and appears to have been “cleared”.
According to the following ... Murat had not been contacted about the reconstruction ... but even if he did have private concerns about it he, in common with Kate and Gerry, would have had absolutely no option but to comply and put in an appearance.
PGR annuls reconstitution of Maddie's disappearance
MAY 28, 2008
00:00
The reconstitution of the night Madeleine McCann disappeared on 3 May 2007 was overturned. The Attorney General's Office announced yesterday that the procedure, which was scheduled for tomorrow and Friday, had been canceled because four of the participants who were supposed to participate were not going to be present.
According to the Attorney General's note,
the stagecoach was "given no effect" due to the "announced no-show" of four friends of the couple McCann who were holidaying in the tourist village of Praia da Luz, Algarve, at the time the child disappeared on May 3 of 2007.
Kate and Gerry McCann were willing to take part in rebuilding Madeleine's disappearance, but her friends questioned the validity and the proposed model.
"Basically, it is not up to Gerry and Kate [the realization of the reconstitution] because they are defendants and, if their presence is required, they will, they have to go," the couple's spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, recently assured Lusa .
"Everything depends on the friends, who were invited to go too, but since they are not defendants, they have the right to question the usefulness of the exercise and if it will help to find Madeleine, and the answer at this moment seems to be no," he said at the same time the spokesman for the couple. A reconstitution of all the steps taken by parents and their friends present at the time was suggested by the Judicial Police (PJ) about a month ago, first through McCann's lawyers and then by individual convocation.
As late as yesterday, the DN reported that Roberto Murat, the British-accused also in the suit, had not been notified of the reconstitution yet and that due diligence would be at risk because of the likely lack of McCann-friendly couples.
Madeleine McCann disappeared from the bedroom where she slept with her two siblings during her parents' vacation in Portugal.
https://www.dn.pt/arquivo/2008/interior/pgr-anula-reconstituicao-do-desaparecimento-de-maddie-992329.html
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If you thought your child was abducted or went missing on a holiday.
Using the same system as the mccanns and your friends family whatever knew the children were alone.
Would you simply trust everyone automatically [they were not all close friends].
My point was though why did the mccanns - when it could have been anyone imo.
It wouldn't be the most obvious thing for a friend to suspect their own friends. But you are right from an outsiders point of view.
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I didn't say you used nthe term T9
You used the term "tapas group".
Tapas group = T9 in my understanding
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So are these the only individuals who refused?
Russell O'Brien, Jane Tanner, Matthew Oldfield and Rachel Mampilly
Looking at what Jez Wilkins writes I'd say he said no as well.
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Looking at what Jez Wilkins writes I'd say he said no as well.
Highly suspicious.
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Would a reconstitution have switched the focus of the investigation to Jane & Russell, given how long each was absent from the dining table?
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Would a reconstitution have switched the focus of the investigation to Jane & Russell, given how long each was absent from the dining table?
If it got that far. How could anyone re-enact something like that for no one would be able to reproduce it. I have found it near impossible to define how long Russell was away. He therefore tends to make the alarm start early from memory.
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If it got that far. How could anyone re-enact something like that for no one would be able to reproduce it. I have found it near impossible to define how long Russell was away. He therefore tends to make the alarm start early from memory.
According to Redwood there was a chance for an abductor to take Madeleine during the time Russell was in 5D or just after he returned to the Tapas. In my opinion no matter how much ;forensic' analysis of the timeline they did, it wasn't possible to confirm who was where at a given time.
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According to Redwood there was a chance for an abductor to take Madeleine during the time Russell was in 5D or just after he returned to the Tapas. In my opinion no matter how much ;forensic' analysis of the timeline they did, it wasn't possible to confirm who was where at a given time.
And that’s exactly why a reconstitution would have been a complete waste of time. When Gerry and Jane tried to recreate the moment of her sighting they couldn’t agree on detail so imagine that x 9 x 300 minutes
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And that’s exactly why a reconstitution would have been a complete waste of time. When Gerry and Jane tried to recreate the moment of her sighting they couldn’t agree on detail so imagine that x 9 x 300 minutes
Would that go against the McCanns?
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Would that go against the McCanns?
It no doubt could be used against them by a police force trying to find evidence to fit their pre decided theory
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After the debacle of being presented with lies by the PJ at their arguido interviews the tapas simply had no confidence in and didn't trust the PJ... And who can blame them
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Would that go against the McCanns?
Yes, I made this point before. What if they’d all attempted to do a reconstitution but simply couldn’t agree on how the evening’s events all fitted together - what then? What would the PJ have deduced from this? Would it have enhance or lessened their already entrenched suspicions?
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Yes, I made this point before. What if they’d all attempted to do a reconstitution but simply couldn’t agree on how the evening’s events all fitted together - what then? What would the PJ have deduced from this? Would it have enhance or lessened their already entrenched suspicions?
If the T9 were less than truthful about the checking routine, why would that mean they were guilty of anything more serious?
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If the T9 were less than truthful about the checking routine, why would that mean they were guilty of anything more serious?
Do you realise that innocent people get arrested and jailed...
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If the T9 were less than truthful about the checking routine, why would that mean they were guilty of anything more serious?
Who said they were less than truthful about the checking routine? Not me. But if the PJ decided they were lying rather than simply forgetful presumably they could face charges of giving false statements? I don’t know if that’s a crime in Portugal...?
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And that’s exactly why a reconstitution would have been a complete waste of time. When Gerry and Jane tried to recreate the moment of her sighting they couldn’t agree on detail so imagine that x 9 x 300 minutes
I believe it was (maybe still is) possible to 'sort out' the Tanner, Gerry, Wilkins location, via a reconstitution.
I just don't see it as important.
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I believe it was (maybe still is) possible to 'sort out' the Tanner, Gerry, Wilkins location, via a reconstitution.
I just don't see it as important.
I think now Tannerman was been taken out of the equation where they all stood is less of an issue.
I do think though that the question mark over the Tanner sighting and the statements given afterwards have been important to the new investigation.
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I think now Tannerman was been taken out of the equation where they all stood is less of an issue.
I do think though that the question mark over the Tanner sighting and the statements given afterwards have been important to the new investigation.
Why do you think that? Personally I think you have no evidence whatsoever for your statement and that it is pure speculation on your part.
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Would a reconstitution have switched the focus of the investigation to Jane & Russell, given how long each was absent from the dining table?
Well, It really should focus on the wild claims that they were like 'sitting in a garden' and only 30/40 seconds away why take longer than say 55 seconds to: go in- listen at door- and come back out.
Or is the 30/40 second time- a supporters guess to protect the parents from any type or blame?
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I believe it was (maybe still is) possible to 'sort out' the Tanner, Gerry, Wilkins location, via a reconstitution.
I just don't see it as important.
If the whole exercise was just to look at that one point, maybe it could have worked but if they wanted to re-enact the whole night IMO it would never work.
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Well, It really should focus on the wild claims that they were like 'sitting in a garden' and only 30/40 seconds away why take longer than say 55 seconds to: go in- listen at door- and come back out.
Or is the 30/40 second time- a supporters guess to protect the parents from any type or blame?
I calculate two minutes to walk from the Tapas to the main door of Block 5.
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Well, It really should focus on the wild claims that they were like 'sitting in a garden' and only 30/40 seconds away why take longer than say 55 seconds to: go in- listen at door- and come back out.
Or is the 30/40 second time- a supporters guess to protect the parents from any type or blame?
You don't need a reconstitution to work out how long it takes to walk from the Tapas Restaurant to the Apartment. Is 30/40 seconds a "wild" claim? How long does it take then? Is it a wild claim to say it's like sitting in your back garden? Not if your back garden is a long one (ours is approx 40 metres and nothing out of the ordinary) - so who is to judge whether or not this is a wild claim?
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All I know for sure was that the others were further away than the McCanns.
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If you remove the number of seconds each checker had visual contact with the front of Block 5 from the time between 9.10pm & 10pm (last sighting to alert time) there are a high number of minutes during which an abductor could have facilitated Madeleine's removal, unseen.
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I calculate two minutes to walk from the Tapas to the main door of Block 5.
And to the patio door? If it takes two minutes from Tapas restaurant to Apartment 5a, how long from Apartment 5a to the site of the Smiths sighting?
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I find it rather ironic that Rowley said that was all dealt with at the time i.e. family and friends being investigated, when in fact it wasn't.
21 July 2008
"We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
25 April 2017
MR: Two points to that, firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was all dealt with and there is no reason whatsoever to reopen that or start rumours that was a line of investigation.
http://news.met.police.uk/blog_posts/ac-mark-rowley-reflects-on-the-tenth-anniversary-of-the-disappearance-of-madeleine-mccann-56775
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I find it rather ironic that Rowley said that was all dealt with at the time i.e. family and friends being investigated, when in fact it wasn't.
21 July 2008
"We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
25 April 2017
MR: Two points to that, firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was all dealt with and there is no reason whatsoever to reopen that or start rumours that was a line of investigation.
http://news.met.police.uk/blog_posts/ac-mark-rowley-reflects-on-the-tenth-anniversary-of-the-disappearance-of-madeleine-mccann-56775
So are you saying MR was wrong?
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So are you saying MR was wrong?
Of course he is wrong because that line of inquiry was never completed.
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Of course he is wrong because that line of inquiry was never completed.
Yet in the opinion of MR it was.
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Which leads to more irony - MR being retired means it doesn't concern him any more.
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You don't need a reconstitution to work out how long it takes to walk from the Tapas Restaurant to the Apartment. Is 30/40 seconds a "wild" claim? How long does it take then? Is it a wild claim to say it's like sitting in your back garden? Not if your back garden is a long one (ours is approx 40 metres and nothing out of the ordinary) - so who is to judge whether or not this is a wild claim?
I believe the police would look at MBM's situation and not yours. ^*&&
They claimed to be able to see the apartment- they could only see the top of a window- no children in near sight.
They claimed like sitting in a garden when the GNR and PJ saw they were NOT in a garden at all. They were, to be pedant, across a public path/road! and as far as I am aware not many people in the UK have this in their gardens or a swimming pool for that matter.
Well done you to run 1 meter in one second that is fast! unbelievably so (&^&
would love to see the video of that!
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I believe the police would look at MBM's situation and not yours. ^*&&
They claimed to be able to see the apartment- they could only see the top of a window- no children in near sight.
They claimed like sitting in a garden when the GNR and PJ saw they were NOT in a garden at all. They were, to be pedant, across a public path/road! and as far as I am aware not many people in the UK have this in their gardens or a swimming pool for that matter.
Well done you to run 1 meter in one second that is fast! unbelievably so (&^&
would love to see the video of that!
WTF are you on about?
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WTF are you on about?
You and your 40 meter long garden- it takes T9 30/40 seconds as claimed by supporters to run from their seat to the children- who were appx 50m away.
now put yourself to the test can you run one end of your garden to the other in less than 30 seconds? We are talking about the reconstitution and what it would flag up... why you thought your garden should be compared is anyone's guess...
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You and your 40 meter long garden- it takes T9 30/40 seconds as claimed by supporters to run from their seat to the children- who were appx 50m away.
now put yourself to the test can you run one end of your garden to the other in less than 30 seconds? We are talking about the reconstitution and what it would flag up... why you thought your garden should be compared is anyone's guess...
Are you seriously asking me if I could run 40 metres in less than 30 seconds? The answer is indisputably yes, I could probably walk it in that time too, and I currently have a broken leg.
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Are you seriously asking me if I could run 40 metres in less than 30 seconds? The answer is indisputably yes, I could probably walk it in that time too, and I currently have a broken leg.
hahaha yes and your garden has a pool to walk hobble round and a road to cross and up stairs .. wow I am impressed.
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hahaha yes and your garden has a pool to walk hobble round and a road to cross and up stairs .. wow I am impressed.
You’re easily impressed then. Walking 40metres in 40 seconds is hardly a feat worthy of the Olympics.
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For the benefit of Miss Taken who seems a little bit confused about average walking speeds
As a guide, the average person can walk the following in a minute:
90 metres at a brisk pace
60-70 metres at a moderate speed
40-50 metres at a slow pace
30-40 at a very slow pace
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Her parents Gerry and Kate held emotional press conferences in front of 5A in the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz in the days after their daughter went missing.
The two bedroom apartment, which is 500 metres from the beach.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2674111/Madeleine-McCann-holiday-apartment-up-for-sale.html
So at a quick pace it takes about 5 minutes to the beach.
Witness Peter Smith
"que andava normalmente, em passo algo rapido"
"who walked normally, in a rather fast pace."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P6/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1616.jpg
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Her parents Gerry and Kate held emotional press conferences in front of 5A in the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz in the days after their daughter went missing.
The two bedroom apartment, which is 500 metres from the beach.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2674111/Madeleine-McCann-holiday-apartment-up-for-sale.html
So at a quick pace it takes about 5 minutes to the beach.
Witness Peter Smith
"que andava normalmente, em passo algo rapido"
"who walked normally, in a rather fast pace."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P6/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1616.jpg
Would a reconstitution have involved Gerry being made to carry a sack of potatoes to the beach?
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Would a reconstitution have involved Gerry being made to carry a sack of potatoes to the beach?
Do you think it should?
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Her parents Gerry and Kate held emotional press conferences in front of 5A in the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz in the days after their daughter went missing.
The two bedroom apartment, which is 500 metres from the beach.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2674111/Madeleine-McCann-holiday-apartment-up-for-sale.html
So at a quick pace it takes about 5 minutes to the beach.
Witness Peter Smith
"que andava normalmente, em passo algo rapido"
"who walked normally, in a rather fast pace."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P6/06_VOLUME_VIa_Page_1616.jpg
It took three reasonably fit men 15 minutes from the Paraiso to the Tapas complex on 3rd May 2007. That was very slow.
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Do you think it should?
Sorry, I no longer answer questions asking me my opinion.
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It took three reasonably fit men 15 minutes from the Paraiso to the Tapas complex on 3rd May 2007. That was very slow.
Yes even with the walking pace offered in great detail. It does not answer the question how long did it take the T9 to get from the tapas to their children's bedroom door to 'listen' and we are reminded that they took the long way round the apartment.
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WTF are you on about?
That's what I was thinking too!
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Yes even with the walking pace offered in great detail. It does not answer the question how long did it take the T9 to get from the tapas to their children's bedroom door to 'listen' and we are reminded that they took the long way round the apartment.
Well armed with Google Earth and the knowledge that hunans walk at between 0.8 mps and 1.4 mps we do not have to guess much......except how much time to factor in for ducking and diving around tables and so on....... 8(0(*
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Well armed with Google Earth and the knowledge that hunans walk at between 0.8 mps and 1.4 mps we do not have to guess much......except how much time to factor in for ducking and diving around tables and so on....... 8(0(*
More guessing.