Author Topic: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?  (Read 5994 times)

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Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #150 on: October 12, 2018, 08:33:03 PM »
You have got to put the word human cadaver in there too.

I believe that Eddie alerted to human cadaver odour and I believe that Martin Grime did to.   

Will that do Rob? Thanks for pointing out that I missed an important appropriate word.
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Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #151 on: October 12, 2018, 08:51:30 PM »
I believe that Eddie alerted to human cadaver odour and I believe that Martin Grime did to.   

Will that do Rob? Thanks for pointing out that I missed an important appropriate word.
No problem.
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #152 on: October 12, 2018, 09:08:37 PM »

I imagine it different ....as I have been quite a few resorts years ago

Albufeira is one of them there is a fish market....fish from boats on the beach....

Fish restaurants .taverners all have fish dishes   oh and Piri Piri chicken

the pork chops seem to be in the tourist caterers

There were many shacks between Alberfeira....and villamora...really poor people...

along the beach and land ....i have never seen one pig...


one i made earlier but forgot to send

Where the restaurants have booklets of photos of egg and chips etc rather than proper menus?

Say no more.....8(0(*
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #153 on: October 12, 2018, 09:28:57 PM »
Please provide a cite for Martin Grime saying "Eddie alerted to cadaver and nothing else".  Thank you

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #154 on: October 12, 2018, 09:36:50 PM »
My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Cross contaminant is the only supporter get out IMO

He also dispels the semen myth also from your cite Pathfinder

'Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids''
The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.


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Online Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #155 on: October 12, 2018, 09:46:12 PM »
Cross contaminant is the only supporter get out IMO

He also dispels the semen myth also from your cite Pathfinder

'Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids''
The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.


Supporters don't need a get out...there is no confirmation to cadaver...

In the rogs Grime was asked twice if cadaver contaminsnt was confirmed..each time he dodged the question...
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 09:52:50 PM by Davel »
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Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #156 on: October 12, 2018, 10:05:42 PM »
Supporters don't need a get out...there is no confirmation to cadaver...

In the rogs Grime was asked twice if cadaver contaminsnt was confirmed..each time he dodged the question...

Personally I don't consider this a "dodged question"

Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred''
There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.


He is saying that Eddie alerted to the odour "he recognizes"  ie cadaver scent.   He does however mention that there is "always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral".
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Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #157 on: October 12, 2018, 10:07:03 PM »
Are you suggesting this cadaverine is free floating ? From dead Grandpa’s pjs  for instance  to settle in places Eddie alerted to ?
If Grandpas Pjays were on the bedside table next to the wall, they would from time to time, maybe always, be touching the wall.  Same with Grandpas ashes


How do you think that cadavarine got up the wall so high?  Surely Madeleines dead body (the sceptics idea about her dead body) was not hung from the wall?  On public display.

Do you think that she was nailed to the wall, or something ?  What a dreadful and silly thought.


Please be real.   Sensible ideas about the cadaravine up the wall would be taken on board


If you come up with a sound idea, I will listen, but I cant see anything that makes sense regarding Madeleine .

Online Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #158 on: October 12, 2018, 10:12:12 PM »
Personally I don't consider this a "dodged question"

Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred''
There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.


He is saying that Eddie alerted to the odour "he recognizes"  ie cadaver scent.   He does however mention that there is "always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral".
That isn't what I was referring to...more...was the alert to cuddle at a confirmation of cadaver odour...

Grime had not confirmed any alerts...he hasn't even said in his opinion the alerts were to cadaver...your beliefs are based on a false premise
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The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
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Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #159 on: October 12, 2018, 10:14:34 PM »
If Grandpas Pjays were on the bedside table next to the wall, they would from time to time, maybe always, be touching the wall.  Same with Grandpas ashes


How do you think that cadavarine got up the wall so high?  Surely Madeleines dead body (the sceptics idea about her dead body) was not hung from the wall?  On public display.

Do you think that she was nailed to the wall, or something ?  What a dreadful and silly thought.


Please be real.   Sensible ideas about the cadaravine up the wall would be taken on board


If you come up with a sound idea, I will listen, but I cant see anything that makes sense regarding Madeleine .

Do you have a cite to show that ashes give off cadaver odour and also one which shows that pyjamas were left on the bedside cabinet following the grandfather's death.

Cadaver odour scent will move around a room and pool, Martin Grime has already explained that the part of a room where Eddie alerted may not be the exact location of where a cadaver may have been placed.
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Online Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #160 on: October 12, 2018, 10:18:05 PM »
Do you have a cite to show that ashes give off cadaver odour and also one which shows that pyjamas were left on the bedside cabinet following the grandfather's death.

Cadaver odour scent will move around a room and pool, Martin Grime has already explained that the part of a room where Eddie alerted may not be the exact location of where a cadaver may have been placed.
Grime said in a closed room the scent will pool...the apartment was not closed....I think he's wrong on that...I'm not a dog handler but I understand Brownian motion...I don't think grime does
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it

Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #161 on: October 12, 2018, 10:20:33 PM »
Grime said in a closed room the scent will pool...the apartment was not closed....I think he's wrong on that...I'm not a dog handler but I understand Brownian motion...I don't think grime does

How long does the apartment have to be empty for Brownian motion to occur davel. When was the last occupant removed prior to Martin Grime's search of the premies.  Do you have these answers please?
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Online Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #162 on: October 12, 2018, 10:23:53 PM »
How long does the apartment have to be empty for Brownian motion to occur davel. When was the last occupant removed prior to Martin Grime's search of the premies.  Do you have these answers please?
Brownian motion occurs in a closed room..the apartment had not been closed....do movement even greater...and as for the residual scent outside...in wind and rain....it would not have lasted weeks never mind months
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
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Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #163 on: October 12, 2018, 10:27:06 PM »
Brownian motion occurs in a closed room..the apartment had not been closed....do movement even greater...and as for the residual scent outside...in wind and rain....it would not have lasted weeks never mind months

I thought you understood Brownian Motion. If so surely you will know how long the apartment doors would have to remain closed for it to operate, a month, a week, a year? Which is it Davel?   We weren't talking about external alerts so please concentrate on the ones in the bedroom please.
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Online Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #164 on: October 12, 2018, 10:28:08 PM »
Personally I don't consider this a "dodged question"

Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred''
There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.


He is saying that Eddie alerted to the odour "he recognizes"  ie cadaver scent.   He does however mention that there is "always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral".

Eddie reacts to blood from a live person
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it