Author Topic: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?  (Read 6023 times)

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Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #180 on: October 13, 2018, 01:37:31 AM »
My answer to that is in the post that you just replied to.

No sadie you said this

)  The dogs, Eddie at least, was exclusively trained on baby piglet carcases.   This is where he learned what he had to alert to, which was cadaravine.  The odour of dead baby piglets was the thing to alert to and then get his reward.


I asked did he STILL alert to dead pig? Well does he sadie?   Martin Grime says not
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 07:40:06 AM by slartibartfast »
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Offline misty

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #181 on: October 13, 2018, 01:41:27 AM »
No sadie you said this

)  The dogs, Eddie at least, was exclusively trained on baby piglet carcases.   This is where he learned what he had to alert to, which was cadaravine.  The odour of dead baby piglets was the thing to alert to and then get his reward.


I asked did he STILL alert to dead pig? Well does he sadie?   Martin Grime says not

How could Eddie be tested by an ACPO instructor if he didn't still alert to decomposing pig?

Offline Brietta

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #182 on: October 13, 2018, 02:37:08 AM »
Do you have a cite to show that ashes give off cadaver odour and also one which shows that pyjamas were left on the bedside cabinet following the grandfather's death.

Cadaver odour scent will move around a room and pool, Martin Grime has already explained that the part of a room where Eddie alerted may not be the exact location of where a cadaver may have been placed.
Among the ashes, search dogs find cremated remains of Santa Rosa loved ones
Annie a Belgian Malinois working with the institute for Canine Forensics looks for the cremains of Lenore Hansen’s daughter Erin
Lenore Hansen is comforted with a hug from a volunteer with the institute of Canine Forensics as archaeologists uncover her daughter’s cremains

         
CHRIS SMITH THE PRESS DEMOCRAT | October 31, 201

Somewhere within the layer of crackly, heat-bleached, almost granular ruins of Lenore Hansen’s country home north of Santa Rosa was all she had left of her younger daughter.

Erin Hansen had attended Piner High and was 30 years old and the mother of two sons when she died of cancer 10 years ago. Her mother kept her ashes in a box in her bedroom closet.

There wasn’t time to grab it when the firestorm bore down on Lenore Hansen’s 60-year-old, creekside house off Riebli Road the morning of Oct. 9.
___________________________________
Once allowed to return and view the destruction of her house, it sank in that Erin’s ashes were in there, mixed with those of the walls and the furniture and everything else.

“Just the thought of her ashes winding up in a toxic-waste dump was more than I could handle,” she said.

She read in The Press Democrat about Lynne Engelbert, whose dog, Piper, is trained to find human remains, even ancient ones. Two weeks ago, Engelbert and Piper voluntarily located in the debris of Curt Nichol’s home the cremated remains of the landscape architect’s parents.

Lenore Hansen contacted Engelbert, who lives in San Jose and is active in the Institute for Canine Forensics, and asked if she would come look for her daughter’s ashes.

“The wind. The wind,” she said with a shake of her head Sunday alongside her home’s remains.
___________________________________
Lynne Engelbert came to Sonoma County on Sunday with friend and fellow dog handler Kris Black of Los Gatos. Through the course of a long and emotional day, Engelbert, Black and their dogs found cremation ashes at the sites of four burned homes in and near Santa Rosa.


Prior to going to Lenore Hansen’s property, the women and their dogs were in Larkfield, helping out Brett Gripe. The retired police officer and his wife, Cheryl, deeply regretted having never scattered the ashes of his father, John Warren Gripe, a Marine Corps veteran of World War II who died in Santa Rosa in 2009 at the age of 85.

  ... his father’s ashes, contained in a tin box he kept in a closet beneath his home’s staircase, were “going to be the biggest needle in the haystack.”

Both Engelbert’s border collie and Black’s Belgian Malinois, Annie, clearly relished the challenge when they independently searched the rubble of the Gripe house. Both lay down around the same spot in the ruins, alerting their handlers they smelled human remains.

Aided by Santa Rosa archaeologist Alex DeGeorgey, Engelbert and Black carefully scooped up the ashes and placed them in plastic bags. The Gripes profusely thanked the trio, who accept no money for their services, and heaped affection on Piper and Annie. A few miles east of the remains of the Gripe home, Lenore Hansen was standing alongside the ashes of the house she’d cherished for 30 years when the two human-remains detection teams and the archaeologist arrived.

For her visitors’ benefit, she pointed to the part of her destroyed house where she kept, in a closet, the wooden box containing Erin’s ashes.

Engelbert went to her SUV and opened the door to a dog kennel. Lithe, eager Piper jumped out. She scooted to the remains of Hansen’s house, and sniffed.

Soon, the dog paused, then lay down. Engelbert praised her, and returned her to the car. Black then went to her SUV and released Annie from her crate. The athletic dog stepped briskly through the remains of Hansen’s house, laying close to where Piper had.

Hansen watched on her knees from just beyond the bare foundation as Engelbert and DeGeorgey knelt and used garden trowels to examine and remove debris.

To the untrained eye, ash is ash. But years of experience allow Engelbert to distinguish from household ash the texture and tan hue of cremated bone.

After a few minutes of careful searching in the area of what had been Hansen’s closet, Engelbert announced a discovery. With DeGeorgey’s help, she scooped Erin’s ashes into a bag.

At the sight, Lenore Hansen’s chin collapsed to her chest and she sobbed. Black and the grieving, relieved mother shared a long and tight embrace.

Hansen said later the recovery of her daughter’s ashes “brought some fresh grief as well.”

Engelbert was happy to have brought Hansen some peace.

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS


There is no doubt that dogs are capable of locating the remains from cremations just as they are capable of finding the incinerated remains of victims of disasters and fires.

I found it of interest that as reported in the above use of dogs ... one was used to corroborate the alert of the other ... which if I am not mistaken ... is standard practice.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #183 on: October 13, 2018, 07:37:45 AM »
https://www.pordata.pt/en/Portugal/National+minimum+wage-74

The annual minimum  National wage (median) for Portuguese workers in 2010 was 6,650 EUROS.





https://www.macrotrends.net/2553/euro-british-pound-exchange-rate-historical-chart

The median exchange rate,of the Euro to £ sterling over 2010 was 0.86 Euro = £1 sterling




Therefore, exchanging Euros for £.sterling the median minimum National Portuguese wage, ten years ago, was :


6,650 x 0.86 = £ 5719


£5719 aint much, is it?



Seems my friend at £7000+ wasn't doing so badly after all.

 
There must have been some massive wages  amongst an elite few if your Portuguese National average salary of 17,000 €uros is correct, slarti

slarti,  can you please show us where you got that figure from?   TY




As I said the Portuguese were a poor people generally and it is a wonder that many of them were able to feed themselves and their families.   A pig or two could have been a way of doing that ... and possibly of raising extra revenue by selling joints off.

Their slaughter hygeine ?    Now that is a question that we dont know the answer to, but it was unlikely to have been high.

A simple google search. You implied your friend was a Computer Expert, not exactly minimum wage territory.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #184 on: October 13, 2018, 08:35:26 AM »
How could Eddie be tested by an ACPO instructor if he didn't still alert to decomposing pig?

Did the ACPO instructor test Eddie on decomposing pig? I doubt that as there would be no sense in doing that if his purpose was to alert to human cadaver not porcine.
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

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Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #185 on: October 13, 2018, 08:42:49 AM »
Among the ashes, search dogs find cremated remains of Santa Rosa loved ones
Annie a Belgian Malinois working with the institute for Canine Forensics looks for the cremains of Lenore Hansen’s daughter Erin
Lenore Hansen is comforted with a hug from a volunteer with the institute of Canine Forensics as archaeologists uncover her daughter’s cremains

         
CHRIS SMITH THE PRESS DEMOCRAT | October 31, 201

Somewhere within the layer of crackly, heat-bleached, almost granular ruins of Lenore Hansen’s country home north of Santa Rosa was all she had left of her younger daughter.

Erin Hansen had attended Piner High and was 30 years old and the mother of two sons when she died of cancer 10 years ago. Her mother kept her ashes in a box in her bedroom closet.

There wasn’t time to grab it when the firestorm bore down on Lenore Hansen’s 60-year-old, creekside house off Riebli Road the morning of Oct. 9.
___________________________________
Once allowed to return and view the destruction of her house, it sank in that Erin’s ashes were in there, mixed with those of the walls and the furniture and everything else.

“Just the thought of her ashes winding up in a toxic-waste dump was more than I could handle,” she said.

She read in The Press Democrat about Lynne Engelbert, whose dog, Piper, is trained to find human remains, even ancient ones. Two weeks ago, Engelbert and Piper voluntarily located in the debris of Curt Nichol’s home the cremated remains of the landscape architect’s parents.

Lenore Hansen contacted Engelbert, who lives in San Jose and is active in the Institute for Canine Forensics, and asked if she would come look for her daughter’s ashes.

“The wind. The wind,” she said with a shake of her head Sunday alongside her home’s remains.
___________________________________
Lynne Engelbert came to Sonoma County on Sunday with friend and fellow dog handler Kris Black of Los Gatos. Through the course of a long and emotional day, Engelbert, Black and their dogs found cremation ashes at the sites of four burned homes in and near Santa Rosa.


Prior to going to Lenore Hansen’s property, the women and their dogs were in Larkfield, helping out Brett Gripe. The retired police officer and his wife, Cheryl, deeply regretted having never scattered the ashes of his father, John Warren Gripe, a Marine Corps veteran of World War II who died in Santa Rosa in 2009 at the age of 85.

  ... his father’s ashes, contained in a tin box he kept in a closet beneath his home’s staircase, were “going to be the biggest needle in the haystack.”

Both Engelbert’s border collie and Black’s Belgian Malinois, Annie, clearly relished the challenge when they independently searched the rubble of the Gripe house. Both lay down around the same spot in the ruins, alerting their handlers they smelled human remains.

Aided by Santa Rosa archaeologist Alex DeGeorgey, Engelbert and Black carefully scooped up the ashes and placed them in plastic bags. The Gripes profusely thanked the trio, who accept no money for their services, and heaped affection on Piper and Annie. A few miles east of the remains of the Gripe home, Lenore Hansen was standing alongside the ashes of the house she’d cherished for 30 years when the two human-remains detection teams and the archaeologist arrived.

For her visitors’ benefit, she pointed to the part of her destroyed house where she kept, in a closet, the wooden box containing Erin’s ashes.

Engelbert went to her SUV and opened the door to a dog kennel. Lithe, eager Piper jumped out. She scooted to the remains of Hansen’s house, and sniffed.

Soon, the dog paused, then lay down. Engelbert praised her, and returned her to the car. Black then went to her SUV and released Annie from her crate. The athletic dog stepped briskly through the remains of Hansen’s house, laying close to where Piper had.

Hansen watched on her knees from just beyond the bare foundation as Engelbert and DeGeorgey knelt and used garden trowels to examine and remove debris.

To the untrained eye, ash is ash. But years of experience allow Engelbert to distinguish from household ash the texture and tan hue of cremated bone.

After a few minutes of careful searching in the area of what had been Hansen’s closet, Engelbert announced a discovery. With DeGeorgey’s help, she scooped Erin’s ashes into a bag.

At the sight, Lenore Hansen’s chin collapsed to her chest and she sobbed. Black and the grieving, relieved mother shared a long and tight embrace.

Hansen said later the recovery of her daughter’s ashes “brought some fresh grief as well.”

Engelbert was happy to have brought Hansen some peace.

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS


There is no doubt that dogs are capable of locating the remains from cremations just as they are capable of finding the incinerated remains of victims of disasters and fires.

I found it of interest that as reported in the above use of dogs ... one was used to corroborate the alert of the other ... which if I am not mistaken ... is standard practice.

That is from a house fire there would be parts of bones and teeth. They burn at up to 1100 degrees farenheit. A cremation achieves a temperature of 1600 to 1800 degrees farenheit so would be totally different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation
https://www.target-fire.co.uk/news/what-is-the-temperature-of-fire/
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

Moderators and Editors take note!

Online Eleanor

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #186 on: October 13, 2018, 09:02:33 AM »
Did the ACPO instructor test Eddie on decomposing pig? I doubt that as there would be no sense in doing that if his purpose was to alert to human cadaver not porcine.

Grime did a test with Cadaver Dogs and Pigs.  The Cadaver Dogs all alerted.

Sorry, don't know where to find it, but it's on here somewhere.

Online G-Unit

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #187 on: October 13, 2018, 09:04:49 AM »
That is from a house fire there would be parts of bones and teeth. They burn at up to 1100 degrees farenheit. A cremation achieves a temperature of 1600 to 1800 degrees farenheit so would be totally different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation
https://www.target-fire.co.uk/news/what-is-the-temperature-of-fire/

The 'ashes' from a cremation are actually ground up bone. Unless these dog's findings were analysed and shown to be bone and nothing else no-one knows for sure what these dogs found.
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything

Online G-Unit

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #188 on: October 13, 2018, 09:06:32 AM »
Grime did a test with Cadaver Dogs and Pigs.  The Cadaver Dogs all alerted.

Sorry, don't know where to find it, but it's on here somewhere.

That was US dogs, who had been trained on human remains, I think.
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything

Online Eleanor

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #189 on: October 13, 2018, 09:19:03 AM »
That was US dogs, who had been trained on human remains, I think.

Is there a difference with US Cadaver Dogs?

But thanks for confirming.  Fair as ever.

Online ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #190 on: October 13, 2018, 09:24:21 AM »
Is there a difference with US Cadaver Dogs?

But thanks for confirming.  Fair as ever.
It was Martin Grime referring to a US (FBI?) training or testing programe.
Ooh, a snowflake!

Online Eleanor

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #191 on: October 13, 2018, 09:26:53 AM »
It was Martin Grime referring to a US (FBI?) training or testing programe.

Thanks also.

Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #192 on: October 13, 2018, 09:27:01 AM »
Is there a difference with US Cadaver Dogs?

But thanks for confirming.  Fair as ever.

I have found a link

Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium.


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

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Online Eleanor

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #193 on: October 13, 2018, 09:29:30 AM »
I have found a link

Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium.


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

Thank You, Sunny.  That is an excellent Cite.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 09:37:26 AM by Eleanor »

Offline Brietta

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #194 on: October 13, 2018, 11:15:53 AM »
That is from a house fire there would be parts of bones and teeth. They burn at up to 1100 degrees farenheit. A cremation achieves a temperature of 1600 to 1800 degrees farenheit so would be totally different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation
https://www.target-fire.co.uk/news/what-is-the-temperature-of-fire/

Did you bother to read the link I supplied?

The remains the dogs were tasked with finding in both instances were the remains of loved ones who had died and had been cremated and whose ashes had become mixed with the ash from the conflagration which destroyed the homes where they were kept.

Quote
Somewhere within the layer of crackly, heat-bleached, almost granular ruins of Lenore Hansen’s country home north of Santa Rosa was all she had left of her younger daughter.

Erin Hansen had attended Piner High and was 30 years old and the mother of two sons when she died of cancer 10 years ago. Her mother kept her ashes in a box in her bedroom closet.

Quote
Prior to going to Lenore Hansen’s property, the women and their dogs were in Larkfield, helping out Brett Gripe. The retired police officer and his wife, Cheryl, deeply regretted having never scattered the ashes of his father, John Warren Gripe, a Marine Corps veteran of World War II who died in Santa Rosa in 2009 at the age of 85.

There are many things Brett Gripe hopes to find in the ruins of his house: among his collection of police and fire-department badges was the badge worn by Sebastopol’s first police chief, Ed Foster. His wife fled the house without her wedding ring.

But Gripe said he was certain his father’s ashes, contained in a tin box he kept in a closet beneath his home’s staircase, were “going to be the biggest needle in the haystack.”

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS




I think sometimes it is possible that when your mind is closed to other possibilities it is easy to ignore the obvious.

You asked for a cite regarding the capability of dogs to locate cremated human ashes and when given it go off at a tangent ignoring the truly fascinating reality of the capabilities of these animals.

Two animals alerted at exactly the same places ... not a coincidence ... not by chance ... but finding what they were looking for.

In my opinion Sadie is correct in her assessment that there are those of us who have an inquiring mind with an interest in following fresh paths and there are those of us with a closed mind as to what can be proved as far as the known science of the dogs is concerned because they know it all already.

In my opinion the evidence above indicates that dogs will alert to cremated human ashes ... 
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"