Author Topic: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?  (Read 6067 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Brietta

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #195 on: October 13, 2018, 11:34:27 AM »
The 'ashes' from a cremation are actually ground up bone. Unless these dog's findings were analysed and shown to be bone and nothing else no-one knows for sure what these dogs found.

Clever doggies!  There was quite a lot of ash to choose from ... but in both instances they alerted independently at the same spot.  Wonder if it was to a scent they recognised?

Brett Gripe holds the cremains of his father after their recovery from the site of his burned home.
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=5&sba=AAS
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #196 on: October 13, 2018, 12:20:25 PM »
Did you bother to read the link I supplied?

The remains the dogs were tasked with finding in both instances were the remains of loved ones who had died and had been cremated and whose ashes had become mixed with the ash from the conflagration which destroyed the homes where they were kept.

Quote
Somewhere within the layer of crackly, heat-bleached, almost granular ruins of Lenore Hansen’s country home north of Santa Rosa was all she had left of her younger daughter.

Erin Hansen had attended Piner High and was 30 years old and the mother of two sons when she died of cancer 10 years ago. Her mother kept her ashes in a box in her bedroom closet.

Quote
Prior to going to Lenore Hansen’s property, the women and their dogs were in Larkfield, helping out Brett Gripe. The retired police officer and his wife, Cheryl, deeply regretted having never scattered the ashes of his father, John Warren Gripe, a Marine Corps veteran of World War II who died in Santa Rosa in 2009 at the age of 85.

There are many things Brett Gripe hopes to find in the ruins of his house: among his collection of police and fire-department badges was the badge worn by Sebastopol’s first police chief, Ed Foster. His wife fled the house without her wedding ring.

But Gripe said he was certain his father’s ashes, contained in a tin box he kept in a closet beneath his home’s staircase, were “going to be the biggest needle in the haystack.”

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS




I think sometimes it is possible that when your mind is closed to other possibilities it is easy to ignore the obvious.

You asked for a cite regarding the capability of dogs to locate cremated human ashes and when given it go off at a tangent ignoring the truly fascinating reality of the capabilities of these animals.

Two animals alerted at exactly the same places ... not a coincidence ... not by chance ... but finding what they were looking for.

In my opinion Sadie is correct in her assessment that there are those of us who have an inquiring mind with an interest in following fresh paths and there are those of us with a closed mind as to what can be proved as far as the known science of the dogs is concerned because they know it all already.

In my opinion the evidence above indicates that dogs will alert to cremated human ashes ... 


Same as Eddie and Keela both alerting behind the sofa. They work as a team.

"Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime investigations." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #197 on: October 13, 2018, 02:20:48 PM »
Same as Eddie and Keela both alerting behind the sofa. They work as a team.

"Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime investigations." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

NOT the same.  Keela is trained to alert ONLY to blood and nothing but blood. 

Therefore, as recorded in the files, both dogs - Eddie and Keela - alerted to blood which forensics determined had nothing at all to do with any member of the McCann family.

The dogs used by the Institute of Canine Forensics ... Piper and Annie, both trained to find human remains, independent of each other "lay down around the same spot in the ruins, alerting their handlers they smelled human remains."
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #198 on: October 13, 2018, 02:25:28 PM »
NOT the same.  Keela is trained to alert ONLY to blood and nothing but blood. 

Therefore, as recorded in the files, both dogs - Eddie and Keela - alerted to blood which forensics determined had nothing at all to do with any member of the McCann family.

The dogs used by the Institute of Canine Forensics ... Piper and Annie, both trained to find human remains, independent of each other "lay down around the same spot in the ruins, alerting their handlers they smelled human remains."
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS

To be totally accurate, because Keela alerted and alert by Eddie is discounted because he alerts to blood as well.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #199 on: October 13, 2018, 02:28:49 PM »
To be totally accurate, because Keela alerted and alert by Eddie is discounted because he alerts to blood as well.

To be totally accurate if both dogs alert their could be blood or blood and cadaver odour
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it

Offline Brietta

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #200 on: October 13, 2018, 02:32:25 PM »
To be totally accurate, because Keela alerted and alert by Eddie is discounted because he alerts to blood as well.

Quite.  Just as there were no alerts to cadaver scent in the Renault hire car it having been proved forensically that Eddie's alert was as a result of cellular material which had been deposited by Madeleine's father.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #201 on: October 13, 2018, 02:41:07 PM »
Quite.  Just as there were no alerts to cadaver scent in the Renault hire car it having been proved forensically that Eddie's alert was as a result of cellular material which had been deposited by Madeleine's father.

I don’t think you are correct with that. The key was alerted to by both dogs if I remember correctly. The other alerts were not necessarily related to the keys.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #202 on: October 13, 2018, 02:48:27 PM »
I don’t think you are correct with that. The key was alerted to by both dogs if I remember correctly. The other alerts were not necessarily related to the keys.

That's the whole point re the dogs...there is simply no way of knowing if an alert us genuine or not in many cases...making any judgement of reliability impossible
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #203 on: October 13, 2018, 03:35:05 PM »
NOT the same.  Keela is trained to alert ONLY to blood and nothing but blood. 

Therefore, as recorded in the files, both dogs - Eddie and Keela - alerted to blood which forensics determined had nothing at all to do with any member of the McCann family.

The dogs used by the Institute of Canine Forensics ... Piper and Annie, both trained to find human remains, independent of each other "lay down around the same spot in the ruins, alerting their handlers they smelled human remains."
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS

Keela didn't alert at the wardrobe only Eddie so it's not blood at that location.  All you need to know is that they were looking for evidence of a body in 2007 and were still looking for it 7 years after when SY returned. The dog alerts are relevant to this case as is the original forensic material that was stored.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 03:40:24 PM by Eleanor »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #204 on: October 13, 2018, 04:21:46 PM »
I don’t think you are correct with that. The key was alerted to by both dogs if I remember correctly. The other alerts were not necessarily related to the keys.

What did Eddie alert to in the hire car?
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Brietta

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #205 on: October 13, 2018, 04:27:49 PM »
Keela didn't alert at the wardrobe only Eddie so it's not blood at that location.  All you need to know is that they were looking for evidence of a body in 2007 and were still looking for it 7 years after when SY returned. The dog alerts are relevant to this case as is the original forensic material that was stored.

One can only judge an animal's performance based on it's track record.  In my opinion Eddie's reaction in both cases we know about in any detail ~ Portugal and Jersey ~ show that Eddie was not reliable at that stage in his career.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Online Eleanor

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #206 on: October 13, 2018, 04:31:05 PM »
One can only judge an animal's performance based on it's track record.  In my opinion Eddie's reaction in both cases we know about in any detail ~ Portugal and Jersey ~ show that Eddie was not reliable at that stage in his career.

I believe that Eddie was badly used in so far as he was being taught new tricks when he couldn't forget the old tricks.  An experiment, as it were.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #207 on: October 13, 2018, 05:36:42 PM »
One can only judge an animal's performance based on it's track record.  In my opinion Eddie's reaction in both cases we know about in any detail ~ Portugal and Jersey ~ show that Eddie was not reliable at that stage in his career.

12 million suggests not!
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Faithlilly

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #208 on: October 13, 2018, 05:55:58 PM »
12 million suggests not!

For anyone to believe that solely in this case would the police question the use of the dogs is naive in the extreme.

It’s interestng that cadaver dog’s skills are only ever questioned by the defence.
'She ( Kate) did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh'.

Online Robittybob1

  • Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 20402
  • Total likes: 3195
  • Wisdom and understanding please.
    • The Lord Jesus - search for Madeleine McCann
Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #209 on: October 13, 2018, 06:28:08 PM »
I have found a link

Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium.


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
Grime is good at training dogs but not so great at explaining himself.  The phrase "pig based products" is an undefined term.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.