Author Topic: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?  (Read 6028 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Robittybob1

  • Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 20292
  • Total likes: 3192
  • Wisdom and understanding please.
    • The Lord Jesus - search for Madeleine McCann
Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #255 on: October 15, 2018, 11:14:23 PM »
So the scent moves with the air flow?
But scent in the air will never concentrate only dissipate. But dust particles do accumulate.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 11:16:39 PM by Robittybob1 »
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #256 on: October 15, 2018, 11:17:46 PM »
But scent in the air will never concentrate only dissipate. But dust particles do accumulate.

Here are some diagrams of how cadaver scent moves outdoors, Rob

http://www.vsrda.org/how-scent-and-airflow-works

From there - Pooling

Pooling Scent
collects in an area like a pool of water
usually occurs in a low area
occurs where there is little dispersal of scent by the wind
It hard for dog to follow a scent pool to the subject
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

Moderators and Editors take note!

Offline Robittybob1

  • Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 20292
  • Total likes: 3192
  • Wisdom and understanding please.
    • The Lord Jesus - search for Madeleine McCann
Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #257 on: October 15, 2018, 11:29:04 PM »
Here are some diagrams of how cadaver scent moves outdoors, Rob

http://www.vsrda.org/how-scent-and-airflow-works

From there - Pooling

Pooling Scent
collects in an area like a pool of water
usually occurs in a low area
occurs where there is little dispersal of scent by the wind
It hard for dog to follow a scent pool to the subject

Pooling with water is the flow of water to a lower level basin, I doubt if that happens with gases to any degree.

OK cold air is denser than warm air meaning cold air will pool.  If air with scent was denser than non scented air it could happen, but I doubt it.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline misty

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #258 on: October 16, 2018, 12:14:55 AM »
Pooling with water is the flow of water to a lower level basin, I doubt if that happens with gases to any degree.

OK cold air is denser than warm air meaning cold air will pool.  If air with scent was denser than non scented air it could happen, but I doubt it.

The question I ask is :- at what stage do the molecules separate enough during diffusion to cease becoming recognisable to dogs as cadaver odour?

Offline Robittybob1

  • Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 20292
  • Total likes: 3192
  • Wisdom and understanding please.
    • The Lord Jesus - search for Madeleine McCann
Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #259 on: October 16, 2018, 01:26:27 AM »
The question I ask is :- at what stage do the molecules separate enough during diffusion to cease becoming recognisable to dogs as cadaver odour?
There would be a variety of molecules that need to be together for the dog to recognise the odour as human cadaver.

All cadavers will produce putrecine  "Putrescine, is a foul-smelling organic chemical compound NH2(CH2)4NH2 (1,4-diaminobutane or butanediamine) that is related to cadaverine; both are produced by the breakdown of amino acids in living and dead organisms and both are toxic in large doses."

All cadavers will produce cadaverine  "Cadaverine is a foul-smelling diamine compound produced by the putrefaction of animal tissue. Cadaverine is a toxic diamine with the formula NH2(CH2)5NH2, which is similar to putrescine. Cadaverine is also known by the names 1,5-pentanediamine and pentamethylenediamine."

So even though I read that cadaver dogs are sniffing cadaverine and putrescine these molecules are just the basic.  - Like that confirms to a dog they are dealing with a dead body.

The dog must have additionally picked up that there are other species specific molecules, and what they are, I just don't know. Is it something based on our diets as compared to other animals.


Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #260 on: October 16, 2018, 01:33:45 AM »
Here are some diagrams of how cadaver scent moves outdoors, Rob

http://www.vsrda.org/how-scent-and-airflow-works

From there - Pooling

Pooling Scent
collects in an area like a pool of water
usually occurs in a low area
occurs where there is little dispersal of scent by the wind
It hard for dog to follow a scent pool to the subject


This example talks about following scent to the subject... physical remains..so there is a constant supply of odour....not remnant scent
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it

Offline Robittybob1

  • Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 20292
  • Total likes: 3192
  • Wisdom and understanding please.
    • The Lord Jesus - search for Madeleine McCann
Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #261 on: October 16, 2018, 01:42:21 AM »
The question I ask is :- at what stage do the molecules separate enough during diffusion to cease becoming recognisable to dogs as cadaver odour?
If this article is correct a dog is smelling "skin rafts" not actual molecules.  http://www.vsrda.org/how-scent-and-airflow-works

Air scenting dogs might operate that way  but they say cadaver dogs can detect odours on items even after they have been laundered, so I tend to think it will be something other than skins rafts.  Only a guess.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 05:15:33 AM by Robittybob1 »
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #262 on: October 16, 2018, 06:58:02 AM »
Surrounding air and out through windows  and doors..remnant scent lasts in a completely sealed room but would not in one with open windows and doors....and certainly not an outside flower bed

Do you have a cite for the windows and doors being open and that remnant scent wouldn't last unless the room was completely sealed. 
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

Moderators and Editors take note!

Offline Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #263 on: October 16, 2018, 07:18:21 AM »
Do you have a cite for the windows and doors being open and that remnant scent wouldn't last unless the room was completely sealed.
The apt was let out...so doors and windows neould be opened.

There are no studies that show how long scent would last.
That's the whole point re alerts...no science to support them
There was an alert outside in the flower bed...how on earth would remnant scent last ,3 months outside
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it

Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #264 on: October 16, 2018, 07:27:50 AM »
The apt was let out...so doors and windows neould be opened.

There are no studies that show how long scent would last.
That's the whole point re alerts...no science to support them
There was an alert outside in the flower bed...how on earth would remnant scent last ,3 months outside

I have read that soil will hold cadaver scent and that bushes etc will also preserve the scent. 

Also regarding windows, doors.  From the Theresa Parker case.

Grime added Eddie did not seem interested in the vehicles but in a scent that was wafting in the air, based on the way the dog held his nose upward. Grime said Eddie then "hit" on an abandoned house next door. Testimony shows that house was never repaired after a fire gutted the inside and killed a child several years ago.


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6271.615

But of course you know more than Martin Grime.  I wonder what happens when science catches up with the dog alerts Davel, it may already have, then what will you say?
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

Moderators and Editors take note!

Offline Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #265 on: October 16, 2018, 07:33:01 AM »
I have read that soil will hold cadaver scent and that bushes etc will also preserve the scent. 

Also regarding windows, doors.  From the Theresa Parker case.

Grime added Eddie did not seem interested in the vehicles but in a scent that was wafting in the air, based on the way the dog held his nose upward. Grime said Eddie then "hit" on an abandoned house next door. Testimony shows that house was never repaired after a fire gutted the inside and killed a child several years ago.


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6271.615

But of course you know more than Martin Grime.  I wonder what happens when science catches up with the dog alerts Davel, it may already have, then what will you say?

If the soil was holding scent it would hold molecules that could be tested for...there is no science to support the validity of the alerts...the alerts have never been scientifically tested.  Until they are they have no evidential reliability..
Grime is a dog handler..not a scientist...all his claims have little value without evidence
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it

Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #266 on: October 16, 2018, 01:25:54 PM »
If the soil was holding scent it would hold molecules that could be tested for...there is no science to support the validity of the alerts...the alerts have never been scientifically tested.  Until they are they have no evidential reliability..
Grime is a dog handler..not a scientist...all his claims have little value without evidence

A bit like your claims Davel. No cite no value IMO
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

Moderators and Editors take note!

Offline Sunny

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #267 on: October 16, 2018, 01:29:42 PM »
If the soil was holding scent it would hold molecules that could be tested for...there is no science to support the validity of the alerts...the alerts have never been scientifically tested.  Until they are they have no evidential reliability..
Grime is a dog handler..not a scientist...all his claims have little value without evidence

I imagine Martin Grime has a tiny bit more knowledge of cadaver scent and how it moves or stays in place than you do Davel.
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

Moderators and Editors take note!

Offline Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #268 on: October 16, 2018, 01:57:44 PM »
A bit like your claims Davel. No cite no value IMO

I would agree...without proper scientific testing the value of the alerts is quite limited.... but the dogs are trained to find evidence and that's what gives them value
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 02:15:42 PM by Davel »
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it

Offline Davel

Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
« Reply #269 on: October 16, 2018, 02:14:53 PM »
I imagine Martin Grime has a tiny bit more knowledge of cadaver scent and how it moves or stays in place than you do Davel.
He may be referring to a closed building which had physical remains...if not he makes no sense
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it