Author Topic: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata  (Read 294646 times)

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Offline misty

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #420 on: November 06, 2018, 12:08:05 AM »
It's not just about the reliability of the dog. In the USA the judges consider 4 specific criteria when determining if canine evidence can be allowed in court. In the D'Andre Lane case, the Appeal Court explained why Grime's evidence was admissible and it is clear that, in any hypothetical case against the McCanns, the US would not allow the dogs' evidence in court.
http://www.rumschlaglaw.com/rumschlag/2014/11/14/michigan-court-of-appeals-holds-cadaver-dog-evidence-admissible

*snipped*

We reject Lane’s argument that, because chemical evidence cannot corroborate whether there was decomposition at the locations Morse identified in this case, the evidence must be excluded as unreliable. Clearly, the four-part test adopted by this Court to ensure the reliability of tracking dog evidence does not exactly correlate to the use of cadaver dogs. However, cadaver dog evidence is not significantly different from other forms of tracking dog evidence. Tracking dogs and cadaver dogs both use a precise sense of smell to identify scents that are outside the range of human ability to detect. Scientific devices can no more follow the scent left on a piece of discarded clothing from the scene of a robbery to a person’s home than they can identify the smell of decomposing human remains. Just as it is not a reason to exclude all tracking dog evidence, the lack of scientific verification of the presence of a specific scent is not a reason to exclude cadaver dog evidence in a blanket fashion. We conclude that the trial court must instead consider the reliability of the cadaver dog evidence in each case.

We also conclude that the trial court did not err by applying the tracking dog test to cadaver dog evidence. Essentially, the trial court in this case applied the foundational requirements of Norwood to another form of dog-based evidence. Here, the trial court determined that Grime and Stockham were “more than qualified,” that they had employed sufficient training methods, and that circumstantial evidence supported Morse’s identification of the car, car seat, and blanket because Morse identified those items when neither Morse nor Grime had any prior knowledge that those items were involved in this case. While the trial court did not specifically determine that the evidence was not stale, Grime’s dogs tested the evidence on December 4, 2011, a mere two days after Bianca’s disappearance on December 2, 2011, and there was no evidence that the car, car seat, or blanket were contaminated with human remains.

In sum, we conclude that cadaver dog evidence is sufficiently reliable if the proponent of the evidence establishes the foundation that (1) the handler was qualified to use the dog; (2) the dog was trained and accurate in identifying human remains; (3) circumstantial evidence corroborates the dog’s identification; and, (4) the evidence was not so stale or contaminated as to be beyond the dog’s competency to identify it. We conclude that, here, the trial court correctly ruled that the prosecutor provided a sufficient foundation to admit the cadaver dog evidence in this case. Accordingly, we conclude that the trial court did not abuse its discretion in admitting the evidence under MRE 702 . . .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The emboldened sentence explains why, imo, the dogs' evidence was inadmissible in the Zapata case.

Offline Sunny

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #421 on: November 06, 2018, 05:45:56 AM »
It's not just about the reliability of the dog. In the USA the judges consider 4 specific criteria when determining if canine evidence can be allowed in court. In the D'Andre Lane case, the Appeal Court explained why Grime's evidence was admissible and it is clear that, in any hypothetical case against the McCanns, the US would not allow the dogs' evidence in court.
http://www.rumschlaglaw.com/rumschlag/2014/11/14/michigan-court-of-appeals-holds-cadaver-dog-evidence-admissible

*snipped*

We reject Lane’s argument that, because chemical evidence cannot corroborate whether there was decomposition at the locations Morse identified in this case, the evidence must be excluded as unreliable. Clearly, the four-part test adopted by this Court to ensure the reliability of tracking dog evidence does not exactly correlate to the use of cadaver dogs. However, cadaver dog evidence is not significantly different from other forms of tracking dog evidence. Tracking dogs and cadaver dogs both use a precise sense of smell to identify scents that are outside the range of human ability to detect. Scientific devices can no more follow the scent left on a piece of discarded clothing from the scene of a robbery to a person’s home than they can identify the smell of decomposing human remains. Just as it is not a reason to exclude all tracking dog evidence, the lack of scientific verification of the presence of a specific scent is not a reason to exclude cadaver dog evidence in a blanket fashion. We conclude that the trial court must instead consider the reliability of the cadaver dog evidence in each case.

We also conclude that the trial court did not err by applying the tracking dog test to cadaver dog evidence. Essentially, the trial court in this case applied the foundational requirements of Norwood to another form of dog-based evidence. Here, the trial court determined that Grime and Stockham were “more than qualified,” that they had employed sufficient training methods, and that circumstantial evidence supported Morse’s identification of the car, car seat, and blanket because Morse identified those items when neither Morse nor Grime had any prior knowledge that those items were involved in this case. While the trial court did not specifically determine that the evidence was not stale, Grime’s dogs tested the evidence on December 4, 2011, a mere two days after Bianca’s disappearance on December 2, 2011, and there was no evidence that the car, car seat, or blanket were contaminated with human remains.

In sum, we conclude that cadaver dog evidence is sufficiently reliable if the proponent of the evidence establishes the foundation that (1) the handler was qualified to use the dog; (2) the dog was trained and accurate in identifying human remains; (3) circumstantial evidence corroborates the dog’s identification; and, (4) the evidence was not so stale or contaminated as to be beyond the dog’s competency to identify it. We conclude that, here, the trial court correctly ruled that the prosecutor provided a sufficient foundation to admit the cadaver dog evidence in this case. Accordingly, we conclude that the trial court did not abuse its discretion in admitting the evidence under MRE 702 . . .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The emboldened sentence explains why, imo, the dogs' evidence was inadmissible in the Zapata case.

All showing how Martin Grime was considered an expert in his field too. Thanks Misty.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #422 on: November 06, 2018, 07:33:46 AM »
All showing how Martin Grime was considered an expert in his field too. Thanks Misty.

Yes and he stated clearly on several occasions the alerts have no evidential reliability

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #423 on: November 06, 2018, 08:13:46 AM »
All showing how Martin Grime was considered an expert in his field too. Thanks Misty.
No one disputes that Martin Grime is considered an expert in his field.  Doris Stokes was considered an expert in her field too.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline G-Unit

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #424 on: November 06, 2018, 10:21:18 AM »
It's not just about the reliability of the dog. In the USA the judges consider 4 specific criteria when determining if canine evidence can be allowed in court. In the D'Andre Lane case, the Appeal Court explained why Grime's evidence was admissible and it is clear that, in any hypothetical case against the McCanns, the US would not allow the dogs' evidence in court.
http://www.rumschlaglaw.com/rumschlag/2014/11/14/michigan-court-of-appeals-holds-cadaver-dog-evidence-admissible

*snipped*

We reject Lane’s argument that, because chemical evidence cannot corroborate whether there was decomposition at the locations Morse identified in this case, the evidence must be excluded as unreliable. Clearly, the four-part test adopted by this Court to ensure the reliability of tracking dog evidence does not exactly correlate to the use of cadaver dogs. However, cadaver dog evidence is not significantly different from other forms of tracking dog evidence. Tracking dogs and cadaver dogs both use a precise sense of smell to identify scents that are outside the range of human ability to detect. Scientific devices can no more follow the scent left on a piece of discarded clothing from the scene of a robbery to a person’s home than they can identify the smell of decomposing human remains. Just as it is not a reason to exclude all tracking dog evidence, the lack of scientific verification of the presence of a specific scent is not a reason to exclude cadaver dog evidence in a blanket fashion. We conclude that the trial court must instead consider the reliability of the cadaver dog evidence in each case.

We also conclude that the trial court did not err by applying the tracking dog test to cadaver dog evidence. Essentially, the trial court in this case applied the foundational requirements of Norwood to another form of dog-based evidence. Here, the trial court determined that Grime and Stockham were “more than qualified,” that they had employed sufficient training methods, and that circumstantial evidence supported Morse’s identification of the car, car seat, and blanket because Morse identified those items when neither Morse nor Grime had any prior knowledge that those items were involved in this case. While the trial court did not specifically determine that the evidence was not stale, Grime’s dogs tested the evidence on December 4, 2011, a mere two days after Bianca’s disappearance on December 2, 2011, and there was no evidence that the car, car seat, or blanket were contaminated with human remains.

In sum, we conclude that cadaver dog evidence is sufficiently reliable if the proponent of the evidence establishes the foundation that (1) the handler was qualified to use the dog; (2) the dog was trained and accurate in identifying human remains; (3) circumstantial evidence corroborates the dog’s identification; and, (4) the evidence was not so stale or contaminated as to be beyond the dog’s competency to identify it. We conclude that, here, the trial court correctly ruled that the prosecutor provided a sufficient foundation to admit the cadaver dog evidence in this case. Accordingly, we conclude that the trial court did not abuse its discretion in admitting the evidence under MRE 702 . . .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The emboldened sentence explains why, imo, the dogs' evidence was inadmissible in the Zapata case.

I thought it was because the dogs in the Zapara case didn't have Morse's track record?
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #425 on: November 06, 2018, 10:26:21 AM »
No one disputes that Martin Grime is considered an expert in his field.  Doris Stokes was considered an expert in her field too.

What a strange comparison.
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Offline Angelo222

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #426 on: November 06, 2018, 10:33:47 AM »
Yes and he stated clearly on several occasions the alerts have no evidential reliability

....but strongly suggestive of cadaver odour all the same?
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

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Offline The General

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #427 on: November 06, 2018, 10:45:18 AM »
No one disputes that Martin Grime is considered an expert in his field.  Doris Stokes was considered an expert in her field too.
Doris Stokes = Martin Grime. Who knew?
Subject Matter Expert - Hobos.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #428 on: November 06, 2018, 10:49:19 AM »
....but strongly suggestive of cadaver odour all the same?

In his expert professional opinion?
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Offline Eleanor

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #429 on: November 06, 2018, 10:55:55 AM »

There is too much Winding Up going on.  Stop Now, Please.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #430 on: November 06, 2018, 11:09:21 AM »
What a strange comparison.
What’s strange about it?  There are experts in all fields.  Psychics, like dogs, have also been used by various police forces to try and gain a greater understanding of what happened in a case.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline G-Unit

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #431 on: November 06, 2018, 11:24:56 AM »
To recap. The McCann's expensive lawyers pounced on one case of a cadaver dog handler's evidence being rejected by a US court in the hope that it would help them to discredit Martin Grimes work. Handlers and dogs vary in their expertise and reliability and Grime was an acceptable witness in the UK courts. Sweeping statements such as Gerry McCann's are unwise and incorrect.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #432 on: November 06, 2018, 11:29:14 AM »
To recap. The McCann's expensive lawyers pounced on one case of a cadaver dog handler's evidence being rejected by a US court in the hope that it would help them to discredit Martin Grimes work. Handlers and dogs vary in their expertise and reliability and Grime was an acceptable witness in the UK courts. Sweeping statements such as Gerry McCann's are unwise and incorrect.

Cite required

When has grime been a witness in UK courts...The mccannd dint have to discredit the dogs... Grime has already told us the have no evidential reliability.  .

This is the second time I have asked for a cite
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 11:32:19 AM by Davel »

Offline G-Unit

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #433 on: November 06, 2018, 11:31:03 AM »
What’s strange about it?  There are experts in all fields.  Psychics, like dogs, have also been used by various police forces to try and gain a greater understanding of what happened in a case.

I can quote cases where cadaver dogs were proved correct. Can you quote cases where psychics have been proved correct?
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #434 on: November 06, 2018, 11:34:39 AM »
I can quote cases where cadaver dogs were proved correct. Can you quote cases where psychics have been proved correct?


Pschics have been shown to be correct on multiple occasions... Is there a Paul in the room....