Author Topic: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata  (Read 294494 times)

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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #450 on: November 06, 2018, 12:23:54 PM »
To be honest, I found Gerry McCanns intervention into the CSI dog debate as suspicious. He should have tried to explain the alerts rather than attempt to discredit all CSI and search dogs in one go. A lapse in good judgement imo.

As they say in meteorological circles, one cloud doesn't maketh a storm.
How would you have explained the dog alerts if you’d been in his shoes, out of interest?  Short of saying “oh that will be the dogs alerting to our dead daughter “ any other reason he might have proffered would have been treated with suspicion and scorn I have absolutely no doubt.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Angelo222

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #451 on: November 06, 2018, 12:28:08 PM »
How would you have explained the dog alerts if you’d been in his shoes, out of interest?  Short of saying “oh that will be the dogs alerting to our dead daughter “ any other reason he might have proffered would have been treated with suspicion and scorn I have absolutely no doubt.

I think most of us know what Eddie would alert to besides cadaver odour.

He did have an impressive record of successes though...


EVRD OPERATIONAL CASEWORK EXAMPLES

1. Northern Ireland, UK A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. The search of suspects’ 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger foot-well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victim’s DNA. The enquiry then concentrated its efforts on the suspect and the E.V.R.D. located the body of the woman in a river-bank deposition site. Further searches identified a location where the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offender’s empty next-door dwelling house. When interviewed, the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.

2. Wiltshire, England, U.K. A female was abducted by her ex-boyfriend. Intelligence suggested that her ex-boyfriend had taken her to his house. A search by the EVRD of the house resulted in small blood stains being alert-indicated, and forensically confirmed as her blood. The suspect, a builder, was in possession of a van. This was searched and the EVRD dog alerted to a 'wacker plate', spirit level, and a shovel. A site was identified where the suspect had been working. The EVRD then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its original state.

3. Devon, England, U.K. A female was abducted and her whereabouts were unknown. The suspect was a bus driver. An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at the alert location revealed a small button off from the girl’s clothing in long grass. The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.

4. Cornwall, England, U.K. A woman was reported missing by her partner. A search of the suspect’s house by the EVRD was conducted, and he indicated on the living room carpet. No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently, a diary written by the suspect was alert-indicated by the dog. The diary had written extracts stating that the offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead. The diary had in fact been written by the suspect who had handled the body. This was confirmed by the offender in interview.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 12:30:49 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #452 on: November 06, 2018, 12:28:33 PM »
Not the same as 'no evidence' is it?

  I see people are ignoring the stuff I posted about Forensics regulatory bodies in the US that Rex Stockham was part of.
I read it, my response would be “so what?”
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #453 on: November 06, 2018, 12:32:36 PM »
I think most of us know what Eddie would alert to besides cadaver odour.

He did have an impressive record of successes though...


EVRD OPERATIONAL CASEWORK EXAMPLES

1. Northern Ireland, UK A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. The search of suspects’ 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger foot-well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victim’s DNA. The enquiry then concentrated its efforts on the suspect and the E.V.R.D. located the body of the woman in a river-bank deposition site. Further searches identified a location where the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offender’s empty next-door dwelling house. When interviewed, the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.

2. Wiltshire, England, U.K. A female was abducted by her ex-boyfriend. Intelligence suggested that her ex-boyfriend had taken her to his house. A search by the EVRD of the house resulted in small blood stains being alert-indicated, and forensically confirmed as her blood. The suspect, a builder, was in possession of a van. This was searched and the EVRD dog alerted to a 'wacker plate', spirit level, and a shovel. A site was identified where the suspect had been working. The EVRD then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its original state.

3. Devon, England, U.K. A female was abducted and her whereabouts were unknown. The suspect was a bus driver. An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at the alert location revealed a small button off from the girl’s clothing in long grass. The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.

4. Cornwall, England, U.K. A woman was reported missing by her partner. A search of the suspect’s house by the EVRD was conducted, and he indicated on the living room carpet. No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently, a diary written by the suspect was alert-indicated by the dog. The diary had written extracts stating that the offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead. The diary had in fact been written by the suspect who had handled the body. This was confirmed by the offender in interview.
Do remind us what Eddie would alert to apart from cadaver odour and then advise which one Gerry should have cited to win your approval.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Gertrude

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #454 on: November 06, 2018, 12:33:49 PM »
I read it, my response would be “so what?”

Well of course it would.
Davel insisted there was no regulating Board.  I provided proof that there is in the USA and Stockham, who said Grime's dogs were more than 90% accurate, was part of it.
 He also said none of it was scientific, it clearly is.

 I'm not sure how anyone can read that and dismiss Stockhams testimony and testing as worthless.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #455 on: November 06, 2018, 12:57:58 PM »
Well of course it would.
Davel insisted there was no regulating Board.  I provided proof that there is in the USA and Stockham, who said Grime's dogs were more than 90% accurate, was part of it.
 He also said none of it was scientific, it clearly is.

 I'm not sure how anyone can read that and dismiss Stockhams testimony and testing as worthless.
Who has done that?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Gertrude

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #456 on: November 06, 2018, 01:03:10 PM »
Who has done that?

Davel said the accuracy rates Stockham gave in the court of Michigan were 'meaningless' IIRC.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #457 on: November 06, 2018, 01:14:40 PM »
I think most of us know what Eddie would alert to besides cadaver odour.

He did have an impressive record of successes though...


EVRD OPERATIONAL CASEWORK EXAMPLES

1. Northern Ireland, UK A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. The search of suspects’ 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger foot-well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victim’s DNA. The enquiry then concentrated its efforts on the suspect and the E.V.R.D. located the body of the woman in a river-bank deposition site. Further searches identified a location where the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offender’s empty next-door dwelling house. When interviewed, the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.

2. Wiltshire, England, U.K. A female was abducted by her ex-boyfriend. Intelligence suggested that her ex-boyfriend had taken her to his house. A search by the EVRD of the house resulted in small blood stains being alert-indicated, and forensically confirmed as her blood. The suspect, a builder, was in possession of a van. This was searched and the EVRD dog alerted to a 'wacker plate', spirit level, and a shovel. A site was identified where the suspect had been working. The EVRD then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its original state.

3. Devon, England, U.K. A female was abducted and her whereabouts were unknown. The suspect was a bus driver. An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at the alert location revealed a small button off from the girl’s clothing in long grass. The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.

4. Cornwall, England, U.K. A woman was reported missing by her partner. A search of the suspect’s house by the EVRD was conducted, and he indicated on the living room carpet. No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently, a diary written by the suspect was alert-indicated by the dog. The diary had written extracts stating that the offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead. The diary had in fact been written by the suspect who had handled the body. This was confirmed by the offender in interview.

That isn't impressive afaiC.... I think he found one body in 5 years... And was used on 37 occasions in 5 years... That's once every 2 months.... So how many cases did he supply evidence used in court to support a conviction..
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 01:25:39 PM by Davel »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #458 on: November 06, 2018, 01:16:28 PM »
Davel said the accuracy rates Stockham gave in the court of Michigan were 'meaningless' IIRC.

What I said was they are meaningless without details of what tests were carried out... And that is a fact..
90 accurate in what... Perhaps you could tell me

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #459 on: November 06, 2018, 01:27:22 PM »
Are there any details of the tests, Stockam carried out

Offline Gertrude

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #460 on: November 06, 2018, 01:35:56 PM »
What I said was they are meaningless without details of what tests were carried out... And that is a fact..
90 accurate in what... Perhaps you could tell me

I posted what Rex Stockham said about double blind testing in court. You seemed not to see it then wrote 'we don't know if he used blind testing'....well we do.

''At trial, FBI Canine Program Manager Rex Stockham testified as an expert in forensic
canine operation. Stockham testified about the process of training and testing victim recovery
-5-
dogs. Stockham’s protocol called for regular single- and double-blind testing of dogs throughout
their working lives. ''
 
Note that is not a direct quote so is a summary of what Stockham said, the court may well have heard much more detail.  It was obviously not meaningless to the Court of Michigan or the FBI or the OSAC Scientific Area Committee.

   Rex Stockham's peer reviewed scientific papers on testing are available - but not in full as far as I can see unless you are an academic.  You can't really say his testing is meaningless if his qualifications are accepted by the FBI, OSAC board - the members of which are fellow scientists - no doubt they have access to his papers on testing, they are fellow scientists.

Quote
https://www.nij.gov/topics/forensics/lab-operations/Pages/scientific-working-groups.aspx

"OSAC works to strengthen the nation's use of forensic science by facilitating the development of technically sound forensic science standards and by promoting the adoption of those standards by the forensic science community.''

  But Stockham decided to give 'meaningless' figures in his testimony?  That makes no sense.

Offline Angelo222

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #461 on: November 06, 2018, 01:40:00 PM »
Are there any details of the tests, Stockam carried out

The fact remains that regardless of how anyone views the alerts, they are pretty damning in my opinion. Had there been alerts to other people's belongings or accommodation then there would have been a reasonable argument for thinking that they were sporadic. That was not the case however, Eddie alerted only in accommodation occupied by Madeleine and her parents and only to clothing owned by the McCanns. That is a fact which is extremely hard to explain imo.

IMO the chances of that occurring accidentally must be very small.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 01:42:35 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline G-Unit

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #462 on: November 06, 2018, 01:43:39 PM »
Not off the top of my head, and why should it matter anyway?  My point was that in any given field there are those that are considered experts.  No doubt it is to them that the police turn to, whether cadaver dog handlers or psychics.

The difference being that the police employ over 2,500 dogs in the UK and no psychics..
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #463 on: November 06, 2018, 01:59:15 PM »
The fact remains that regardless of how anyone views the alerts, they are pretty damning in my opinion. Had there been alerts to other people's belongings or accommodation then there would have been a reasonable argument for thinking that they were sporadic. That was not the case however, Eddie alerted only in accommodation occupied by Madeleine and her parents and only to clothing owned by the McCanns. That is a fact which is extremely hard to explain imo.

IMO the chances of that occurring accidentally must be very small.

IMO That claim has been debunked several times..... The dogs IMO initially did not alert to sites in 5a..... But they were given more time to go over the same ground again.... This did not happen in other apartments
The PJ questioned why the dog alerted to sites he had previously  ignored... Nothing damning at all
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 02:05:20 PM by slartibartfast »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #464 on: November 06, 2018, 02:00:50 PM »
I posted what Rex Stockham said about double blind testing in court. You seemed not to see it then wrote 'we don't know if he used blind testing'....well we do.

''At trial, FBI Canine Program Manager Rex Stockham testified as an expert in forensic
canine operation. Stockham testified about the process of training and testing victim recovery
-5-
dogs. Stockham’s protocol called for regular single- and double-blind testing of dogs throughout
their working lives. ''
 
Note that is not a direct quote so is a summary of what Stockham said, the court may well have heard much more detail.  It was obviously not meaningless to the Court of Michigan or the FBI or the OSAC Scientific Area Committee.

   Rex Stockham's peer reviewed scientific papers on testing are available - but not in full as far as I can see unless you are an academic.  You can't really say his testing is meaningless if his qualifications are accepted by the FBI, OSAC board - the members of which are fellow scientists - no doubt they have access to his papers on testing, they are fellow scientists.

"OSAC works to strengthen the nation's use of forensic science by facilitating the development of technically sound forensic science standards and by promoting the adoption of those standards by the forensic science community.''

  But Stockham decided to give 'meaningless' figures in his testimony?  That makes no sense.

Stockham knew, exactly what the figure meant.... The judge didnt