Author Topic: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata  (Read 255768 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1830 on: July 28, 2019, 11:12:08 PM »
Were dead when?  Were the teeth kept as a souvenir while the child was alive?  We don't know.

There is no confirmation in Jersey that those teeth came from dead people... In his white paper Grime now says a cadaver dog would not react to such teeth

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1831 on: July 28, 2019, 11:14:22 PM »
There is no confirmation in Jersey that those teeth came from dead people... In his white paper Grime now says a cadaver dog would not react to such teeth
Cite please. Link to the paper would be enough.  Then I'll search for milk teeth or deciduous teeth
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 11:18:13 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1832 on: July 28, 2019, 11:17:00 PM »
Cite please.

I'll give the cite tomorrow...it's late now.. Ive given it before on here recently.. I'm surprised you haven't seen it

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1833 on: July 28, 2019, 11:24:51 PM »
I'll give the cite tomorrow...it's late now.. Ive given it before on here recently.. I'm surprised you haven't seen it
Found it.  It clearly has teeth as human remains and in it own category "teeth"  and they are located by a trained cadaver dog #139/187  http://eprints.staffs.ac.uk/4750/1/Forensic%20Canine%20Foundation%20.pdf
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1834 on: July 28, 2019, 11:30:12 PM »
Found it.  It clearly has teeth as human remains and in it own category "teeth"  and they are located by a trained cadaver dog #139/187  http://eprints.staffs.ac.uk/4750/1/Forensic%20Canine%20Foundation%20.pdf

I don't think it says that at all

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1835 on: July 28, 2019, 11:32:37 PM »
I don't think it says that at all
Well you take quotes from there to get a different meaning then and I'll consider it.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1836 on: July 28, 2019, 11:36:39 PM »
Well you take quotes from there to get a different meaning then and I'll consider it.

I don't need you to consider it.. I have my opinion... You have yours

Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1837 on: July 29, 2019, 12:06:06 AM »
Cite

It doesn't need  to be referenced. By definition human teeth that are found after death are remains of a human.

Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1838 on: July 29, 2019, 12:12:00 AM »
I don't need you to consider it.. I have my opinion... You have yours

But you're at odds with normal accepted definitions - this took me less than a minute:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/ice-age-milk-teeth-dna-hunters-siberia-prehistoric-cambridge-university-a8945221.html

The DNA was recovered from the only human remains discovered during the era – two tiny milk teeth found in a large site near the Yana River in northern Russia.

Offline misty

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1839 on: July 29, 2019, 12:21:28 AM »
It doesn't need  to be referenced. By definition human teeth that are found after death are remains of a human.

How does a cadaver dog differentiate between teeth from a living & those from a dead human?

Milk teeth contain stem cells which can be used for regeneration/fighting cancer ergo they're not technically dead.

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/health/keeping-your-childs-milk-teeth-2819309
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 12:25:33 AM by misty »

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1840 on: July 29, 2019, 12:22:41 AM »
I don't need you to consider it.. I have my opinion... You have yours
We weren't really discussing our own opinions, but what Grime believes.

"So what amounts to human remains.. Milk teeth shed naturally are not human remains... Grime stated as a fact the alerts led to the location of human remains as a fact.. It's possible.. But not fact"

Once again the use of the ellipses has resulted in an ambiguous post.  Use a period at the end of a sentence please.
Human remains were found - fact
Milk teeth were found - fact.

Does Grime accept milk teeth as human remains?  What does he say?  He doesn't differentiate milk teeth from teeth.

What is not a fact?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 12:34:09 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1841 on: July 29, 2019, 12:35:24 AM »
How does a cadaver dog differentiate between teeth from a living & those from a dead human?

Milk teeth contain stem cells which can be used for regeneration/fighting cancer ergo they're not technically dead.

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/health/keeping-your-childs-milk-teeth-2819309

Maybe Eddie alerted to the human bone... and not the milk teeth.

Offline misty

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1842 on: July 29, 2019, 12:39:22 AM »
Maybe Eddie alerted to the human bone... and not the milk teeth.

Eddie alerted in multiple places but only 3 human bones were recovered. I cannot see a connection between the teeth & bones which were recovered.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1843 on: July 29, 2019, 12:42:15 AM »
Maybe Eddie alerted to the human bone... and not the milk teeth.
If a child is buried how many years later is the whole skeleton gone so the only parts remaining are the teeth?

In the above case the odour being alerted to is in the soil from the decomposition of the whole body not just the odour coming from the remaining teeth, in my understanding of what Grime says in his papers.
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Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #1844 on: July 29, 2019, 01:37:00 AM »
If a child is buried how many years later is the whole skeleton gone so the only parts remaining are the teeth?

In the above case the odour being alerted to is in the soil from the decomposition of the whole body not just the odour coming from the remaining teeth, in my understanding of what Grime says in his papers.

This is from the same Guardian article... link above:

............."The inquiry was delivered a blow when, in January 2008, Harper's deputy, DI Alison Fossey, went to the mainland on a strategic command course. Fossey had a law degree and had worked in child protection for most of her career. She was a details person, while Harper had a more scattergun approach. In her absence, the investigation was transformed by lurid claims of bodies and murder. One police report from this time states, "Among the [Haut] victims were a few who said that children had been dragged from their beds at night screaming and had then disappeared." A local builder who had done renovations there in 2003 said he had found what he thought were children's bones and shoes. These items had been disposed of by the Jersey pathologist. Harper remained suspicious. On 5 February 2008, he flew to Oxford to take advice from LGC Forensics, a crime scene service used by forces across the UK.

Two weeks later, an LGC team encamped at Haut de la Garenne. A squad of technicians in white suits pored over the site. Central to it all were two sniffer dogs, Eddie and Keela, which Harper took to describing as his "canine assets". They were veterans deployed in the search for missing Madeleine McCann in Portugal, although the controversy caused there should have served as a warning to Harper. In Portugal, the dogs had crawled over a car used by Gerry and Kate McCann, and sounded the alarm. The Portuguese police then claimed that the McCanns had killed their daughter, when what the dogs had actually picked up on was both parents' legitimate proximity to death, working in hospitals.

At Haut de la Garenne, the dogs made straight for the place where in 2003 the builder said he had found bones. A senior police officer recalled, "They did cartwheels on the spot. And Harper went through the roof." As in Portugal, the dogs had smelled something but could not differentiate between ancient remains and a contemporary murder. But at 2pm on 23 February, caution cast aside, Harper called a press conference, telling reporters police believed that the partial remains of a child were buried there.

Over the following months, £7.5m would be spent sifting 100 tonnes of earth. By the time DI Fossey returned, there were 65 milk teeth, 165 bone fragments and two lime-lined pits dominating the inquiry. "...........