would you leave your children alone like the mcanns did?? and if not why

[stephen25000]

In any case, the speed at which the McCanns actually walked 80 metres that evening is kind of immaterial.  The fact is that there *could* have walked it in 48 seconds.  That is how close they were.  They were not a 5 minute or 10 minute walk away, they could easily have reached the apartment in under a minute if they so chose, even under the influence or 2-3 glasses of wine - unless you believe that they suffer from some other physical impairment that makes this quite impossible?

Could, does not mean they did.

It's speculation.

They could have chosen to hop on one leg between the  Tapas Bar and the Apartment which would have slowed them down considerably.  The likelihood however is that they walked normally - do you concede that this is more likely?

From the sublime to the ridiculous.

You are speculating, merely because you support the mccanns.

[marxman]

Hello

I have been there and eaten in the outdoor restaurant as did The Mccanns.

It is effectively in the back garden of the apartments, but there is a walled walkway between it and the apartments, therefore a person must go back to the road via the reception to gain access to the apartments.  But have no doubts about it, it is part of the Ocean Club apartments and effectively the back garden.

As I have been shouting for about three years now, the distance from where we sat and ate at the Tapas restaurant,  crow flies, to the patio doors is 50 metres.  To walk to the patio doors is under 80 metres.  In an emergency, a run of a few seconds for a fit person like Kate or Gerry.   The Mccanns sat in the same restaurant as us and just about 2 or 3 metres to the west of where we sat 

Where we and the Mccanns sat is NOT a bar; it is an outside restaurant.  The bar is the ?brick built proper building to the west of the Tapas Restaurant.  Many of the photographs on various websites are incorrectly (?Maliciously?) taken from this bar and they give a totally untrue image of the distance and visibility.

From photographs taken at the time of Madeleine's abduction, it is clear that all the bushes and hedges had just been cut back.  Many of the incorrect photos were taken months later when the foliage had grown and give a totally false impression.  Where we sat we had a clear view of virtually the whole patio door and the steps up.  The Mccanns view would have been almost the same.

Since going there it has sickened me to see the disinformation given out about the view the Mccanns had.  Disinformation and Propaganda are very powerful weapons and they have clearly devastated the truth.

All measurements taken by Google Earth

Hi Sadie, I was at the complex too a few years past, and my initial thoughts were that it did seem a fairly long and hazardous distence between tapas  restaurant and apartments. As you correctly note, the restaurant is within it's own walled compound complete with swimming pool and hedgerow which probably adds to a feeling of being separated from accomadation by sight and sound.
I say sound because I believe that this is of paramount importence. It could be argued that the Mccann apartment may have been viewed from their location at the tapas, (but not inside each room) but it must be agreed that it was impossible for the parents to hear any of their children in the event of distress or harm.
The 'checks' therefore must have proved worthless for the well being of the children as it only takes seconds for a child to choke or worse.
IMO, when you add all things into the mix, the location, the unsupervised childcare, the socialising and drinking,  the dynamic within the group of professionals, the changing timelines and statements, and more, I tend to think that something happened as a result of all these factors and as Murat described it as 'the biggest Fxxx up of all time', or words to that effect.

[sadie]

I
As you will see this is a plan of most of block 5 Ocean Club.

The Tapas Bar is inside a proper building.  The red marker (labelled 'Not K&G') to the west and the 'r' of 'indoor' to the east.  The outdoor Tapas restaurant is where K&G and sadie (me) sat. 

Apartment 5A is clearly shown, as is the patio door and reception.

OC is built on a hill and whilst the front door at the NE corner is at ground level, the rear patio is more like a balcony because the ground has fallen away considerably.  There are a good number of steps up to the patio, so it is like first floor level from the back. 

This means that despite the walls around the pathway traversing East to West, one can see the patio area, because it is raised.  Also it means that how the shrubs were when we visited in 2010, we could see clean over the top of any, in what appears direct line

Where we sat, we could clearly see virtually the whole of the sitting room patio door, top to bottom and side to side.  The Mccanns sat a coupla-so metres to the west and their view was not quite as good, but they could still see most of the patio doors and the steps down. 

As I said before, it can be seen from contemporary photographs that the bushes and foliage had recently been heavily trimmed back.

I am sorry, but the poster to whom I am replying, no longer shows with his/her name, but this is for you and anyone else to read (especially the disbelieving Steven)


The sound: 
PdL is an extremely quiet resort.  A nice place to visit.  No noticeable sounds when I was there in the June/July 2010.    Virtually no traffic; no shouting, nothing really to break the silence, and a clear pathway for any sounds to travel along. 
Except, of course. there was a thin plastic wall, but with gaps. 

We used to have a garden which was exactly 50 metres long and chatting to neighbours, whatever, we never failed to hear if our children called us ... and we lived on the main ring road of a busy town at that time.  Admittedly we were a good distance back, but it was not silent as PdL was.

The Tapas restaurant was out of doors.  I think that it was possible to eat in the bar area as well but that was further away and with solid walls would mask sound.  This out door restaurant was enclosed in a tent like structure with gaps and huge picture windows towards the apartments.  Visibility was very good.

We did not have a plastic sheet (with gaps)between us and the house, but then we had our backs to the house as we talked over the fence at home ... so with Brummy traffic noise, not very different really. 

Suggest, if you can find a suitably quiet place, you try it for yourselves.   

50 Metres, give or take a metre, that's all it is.

[sadie]

To walk to the patio doors, one just had to walk the little pathway to the reception, along the road for a short distance, through the gate, then up about 11 steps (from memory).  About 3 steps across the balcony /patio and you were there.  Less than 80 metres

To put that into perspective the 100 metres can be run in 10 seconds, as some perceptive person noted earlier.  My educated guess is that K & G could have run it in about 20 seconds.  Some folks would take longer than that to get out of their chair!

Hope this helps



Will try and organise myself to show anyone who doesn't know how to measure using GEarth, just how it is done.

Then Stephen you can check all my distances ... would be delighted if you did

[gilet]

I am not seriously speculating that they hopped on one leg.  I suppose it could have happened, nothing is impossible within reason, however I think it's safe to rule that idea out.  Just as I think  it's safe to rule out the idea that they were so drunk they could only manage to walk 8 metres per minute.

8 metres per minute and people like Stephen25000 and Carlymichelle expect us to take them seriously.

Incidentally Stephen25000 have you backed up your claims about excessive alcohol (oops ethanol as you're a scientist) consumption yet or is that just a myth? Or do you just think we should take your word for it (you being a scientist and all that)?

[debunker]

I fell so sorry when I read here how some of you are so arrogant.
I can't find it justifiable to leave small children alone in a foreign country. Although there are parents who do this but don't have their children disappeared.
Now the McCain's one child is disappeared and there is nothing to defend their actions. The fact that they left the kids several nights in a row to enjoy themselves is indefensible.
It is the child who is vulnerable to be defended NOT the parents.
If you were to ask the kids if they want to be alone or not in a strange room in a foreign country what do you think they will respond?

If you have 'lost' your child, you will take your punishment. One can't blame others because they did not do this or that.

It also occurs to me that NOBODY talks about Madeleine, only the parents.

VEry few people applaud the McCanns' child care practices, but that does not excuse campaigns of defamation and harassment on the internet as Tony Bennett found when sued for defamation.

[stephen25000]

I fell so sorry when I read here how some of you are so arrogant.
I can't find it justifiable to leave small children alone in a foreign country. Although there are parents who do this but don't have their children disappeared.
Now the McCain's one child is disappeared and there is nothing to defend their actions. The fact that they left the kids several nights in a row to enjoy themselves is indefensible.
It is the child who is vulnerable to be defended NOT the parents.
If you were to ask the kids if they want to be alone or not in a strange room in a foreign country what do you think they will respond?

If you have 'lost' your child, you will take your punishment. One can't blame others because they did not do this or that.

It also occurs to me that NOBODY talks about Madeleine, only the parents.

VEry few people applaud the McCanns' child care practices, but that does not excuse campaigns of defamation and harassment on the internet as Tony Bennett found when sued for defamation.


Bennett is a fool and got his just desserts.

[debunker]

I fell so sorry when I read here how some of you are so arrogant.
I can't find it justifiable to leave small children alone in a foreign country. Although there are parents who do this but don't have their children disappeared.
Now the McCain's one child is disappeared and there is nothing to defend their actions. The fact that they left the kids several nights in a row to enjoy themselves is indefensible.
It is the child who is vulnerable to be defended NOT the parents.
If you were to ask the kids if they want to be alone or not in a strange room in a foreign country what do you think they will respond?



If you have 'lost' your child, you will take your punishment. One can't blame others because they did not do this or that.

It also occurs to me that NOBODY talks about Madeleine, only the parents.

VEry few people applaud the McCanns' child care practices, but that does not excuse campaigns of defamation and harassment on the internet as Tony Bennett found when sued for defamation.

Bennett is a fool and got his just desserts.

THe comment about Bennett being a fool and getting his just desserts is not mine- your html went wrong and I hope I have corrected it in this quote.

I do however agree he is a fool and deserved his comeuppance.

DO you feel the same about HiDeHo who plows the same furrow.

[stephen25000]

I fell so sorry when I read here how some of you are so arrogant.
I can't find it justifiable to leave small children alone in a foreign country. Although there are parents who do this but don't have their children disappeared.
Now the McCain's one child is disappeared and there is nothing to defend their actions. The fact that they left the kids several nights in a row to enjoy themselves is indefensible.
It is the child who is vulnerable to be defended NOT the parents.
If you were to ask the kids if they want to be alone or not in a strange room in a foreign country what do you think they will respond?



If you have 'lost' your child, you will take your punishment. One can't blame others because they did not do this or that.

It also occurs to me that NOBODY talks about Madeleine, only the parents.

VEry few people applaud the McCanns' child care practices, but that does not excuse campaigns of defamation and harassment on the internet as Tony Bennett found when sued for defamation.

Bennett is a fool and got his just desserts.

THe comment about Bennett being a fool and getting his just desserts is not mine- your html went wrong and I hope I have corrected it in this quote.

I do however agree he is a fool and deserved his comeuppance.

DO you feel the same about HiDeHo who plows the same furrow.

Thanks for doing that.

I take a look at some of Hi-de-Ho's videos after work today.