First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85

[Holly Goodhead]

The hair could have come from anywhere and may not have even been on the  silencer when found. It could have been a dog hair or a hair that was picked up  when stored at AE's house. It fell off - so   what?

Assuming the grey hair existed and wasn't just a figment of someone's imagination I agree but it didn't prevent the prosecution at trial, along with the trial judge, correographing a correlation between the grey hair and the silencer striking NB's head.

[Holly Goodhead]

The only way traces of Sheila could have been found deep within the silencer was if she had been shot while it was attached to the weapon used to kill her and to wipe out
The distribution of blood in the moderator is an issue I addressed in great detail.  The prosecution experts found visible blood on the first 5-7 baffles wiht the volume decreasing the further it got from the opening.  The defense expert found microscopic traces of blood on the first 8 baffles.  The blood was tested and detemrined to be group A.  In addition a flake of blood that dried between baffles 1 and 2 was tested and determined to be group A but also had an anzyme which June didn't possess but Sheila did.

June and Sheila both have group A blood but Sheila has enzyme AK1 while June has enzyme AK2-1 so the flake was consistent with Sheila's blood not June's.  AK2-1 is more hardy than AK1 and since the AK1 enzyme had not yet deteriorated that means had June's blood been present her AK2-1 enzymes would still have been present.  So this speaks against the blood on the baffles or the flake containing any of June's blood because there was no AK2-1 present and there should have been if her blood was present because AK2-1 takes longer to deteriorate than AK1 and AK1 was present.

The only way for blood to get on the 8 baffles with the volume dimishing is if it were sprayed there.  High velocity backspatter is a spray of atomized blood.  The larger particles cannot travel as far as the fine particles so the larger blood will be on the early baffles. This is exactly what was observed.

You have no way at all to suggest the blood was anything other than backspatter from Sheila.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg222171#msg222171

No diagrams or photographic evidence exists depicting the blood supposedly found inside the silencer.

The silencer is effectively a hollow tube which features an expansion chamber one end and a series of baffle plates the other.  I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere that the actual tube was examined by way of inserting a camera (if such things existed then) or even shinining a bright light down it.  We are told the blood appeared on the baffle plates and yet the defence expert was unable to observe any blood staining visually.

At trial Malcolm Fletcher (HO ballistics) said he thought he saw blood as far down as the 6th baffle.  John Hayward (HO biologist) said he thought the 5th baffle.  Why so vague?  Why no notes?  I thought scientists worked through these things carefully and methodically?

John Hayward:

Q: About how many baffles down did it go?

A: I did not make a note at the time, sir, but from recollection I certainly detected it on the uppermost four or five baffles.

Malcolm Fletcher:

Q: Perhaps you can elaborate on that.  We have heard some evidence that there was blood on the inside of it, down to about the fourth or fifth baffle.  Can you help as to how far it went down on your observation?

A: Yes I certainly saw it down as far as the fifth, and I think there may have been a little further in as well, maybe the sixth or seventh possibly.

[Caroline]

Assuming the grey hair existed and wasn't just a figment of someone's imagination I agree but it didn't prevent the prosecution at trial, along with the trial judge, correographing a correlation between the grey hair and the silencer striking NB's head.

Well everyone knows that correlation is not causation. But that was really up to the defence to highlight  that the family scrutinised it and saw no hair. Who knows, maybe they did.

[Caroline]

No diagrams or photographic evidence exists depicting the blood supposedly found inside the silencer.

The silencer is effectively a hollow tube which features an expansion chamber one end and a series of baffle plates the other.  I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere that the actual tube was examined by way of inserting a camera (if such things existed then) or even shinining a bright light down it.  We are told the blood appeared on the baffle plates and yet the defence expert was unable to observe any blood staining visually.

At trial Malcolm Fletcher (HO ballistics) said he thought he saw blood as far down as the 6th baffle.  John Hayward (HO biologist) said he thought the 5th baffle.  Why so vague?  Why no notes?  I thought scientists worked through these things carefully and methodically?

John Hayward:

Q: About how many baffles down did it go?

A: I did not make a note at the time, sir, but from recollection I certainly detected it on the uppermost four or five baffles.

Malcolm Fletcher:

Q: Perhaps you can elaborate on that.  We have heard some evidence that there was blood on the inside of it, down to about the fourth or fifth baffle.  Can you help as to how far it went down on your observation?

A: Yes I certainly saw it down as far as the fifth, and I think there may have been a little further in as well, maybe the sixth or seventh possibly.

There is this but it's not ver easy to read.

[Brietta]

No diagrams or photographic evidence exists depicting the blood supposedly found inside the silencer.

The silencer is effectively a hollow tube which features an expansion chamber one end and a series of baffle plates the other.  I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere that the actual tube was examined by way of inserting a camera (if such things existed then) or even shinining a bright light down it.  We are told the blood appeared on the baffle plates and yet the defence expert was unable to observe any blood staining visually.

At trial Malcolm Fletcher (HO ballistics) said he thought he saw blood as far down as the 6th baffle.  John Hayward (HO biologist) said he thought the 5th baffle.  Why so vague?  Why no notes?  I thought scientists worked through these things carefully and methodically?

John Hayward:

Q: About how many baffles down did it go?

A: I did not make a note at the time, sir, but from recollection I certainly detected it on the uppermost four or five baffles.

Malcolm Fletcher:

Q: Perhaps you can elaborate on that.  We have heard some evidence that there was blood on the inside of it, down to about the fourth or fifth baffle.  Can you help as to how far it went down on your observation?

A: Yes I certainly saw it down as far as the fifth, and I think there may have been a little further in as well, maybe the sixth or seventh possibly.

457. Mr Fletcher, the firearms expert, gave evidence to explain how blood got into the moderator if it was attached, or into the barrel if there was no moderator attached. He said that the mechanism was complicated and not then fully appreciated. However, the expanding gas when the bullet left the muzzle was under normal circumstances distributed into the atmosphere. However with a contact shot there was no opportunity for this escape and the gas would follow the bullet into the wound as it expanded. Back pressure would then build up forcing the gas back out of the wound taking with it blood and tissue which would in effect be blasted back into the barrel if there was no moderator or into the moderator if one was attached. He said that even without direct contact, the same effect might occur but only if the gap between the end of the barrel, or the moderator if attached, and the skin was less than one millimetre. He said that the likelihood of such an occurrence was to an extent dependent on the part of the body to which the shot was delivered and the amount of blood present at that point.

458. If the shot to Shelia Caffell, which was a contact shot to the throat, had been fired without the moderator in place, he would have expected to find blood in the barrel of the gun. If the moderator was attached it was "virtually certain" that Sheila Caffell's blood would get into the moderator. There was, he said "a very slight possibility of it not happening, but very slight".
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html



In other words ... if Sheila had shot herself blood would have been drawn back into the barrel of the gun.  If someone else had shot her using a silencer that draw back would have taken Sheila's blood into the silencer.

Sheila's blood was found in the silencer.  Someone shot her.  And the only person that could have been was Jeremy Bamber.

[Caroline]

457. Mr Fletcher, the firearms expert, gave evidence to explain how blood got into the moderator if it was attached, or into the barrel if there was no moderator attached. He said that the mechanism was complicated and not then fully appreciated. However, the expanding gas when the bullet left the muzzle was under normal circumstances distributed into the atmosphere. However with a contact shot there was no opportunity for this escape and the gas would follow the bullet into the wound as it expanded. Back pressure would then build up forcing the gas back out of the wound taking with it blood and tissue which would in effect be blasted back into the barrel if there was no moderator or into the moderator if one was attached. He said that even without direct contact, the same effect might occur but only if the gap between the end of the barrel, or the moderator if attached, and the skin was less than one millimetre. He said that the likelihood of such an occurrence was to an extent dependent on the part of the body to which the shot was delivered and the amount of blood present at that point.

458. If the shot to Shelia Caffell, which was a contact shot to the throat, had been fired without the moderator in place, he would have expected to find blood in the barrel of the gun. If the moderator was attached it was "virtually certain" that Sheila Caffell's blood would get into the moderator. There was, he said "a very slight possibility of it not happening, but very slight".
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html



In other words ... if Sheila had shot herself blood would have been drawn back into the barrel of the gun.  If someone else had shot her using a silencer that draw back would have taken Sheila's blood into the silencer.

Sheila's blood was found in the silencer.  Someone shot her.  And the only person that could have been was Jeremy Bamber.

Yes Brietta but Malcolm Fletcher only had 13 years of experience working in ballistic forensics - what does he know? 

[ISpyWithMyEye]

I agree the cyanoacrylate fuming chamber was unlikely to adversely affect the paint particles for further forensic examination unlike the blood.  But assuming the paint particles were actually present on 13th Aug they were miniscule and embedded in the textured end meaning they were about 1mm in size.  The hair had already been lost in transit so why take the risk with the paint particles?  Why not remove them then and there?  Although the cyanoacrylate fuming chamber was unlikely to adversely affect per se it may have caused them to dislodge.

In any event the silencer went in the fuming chamber on 15th Aug and yet we are told it wasn't until 25th Sep that Brian Elliot removed and examined the paint particles.

And it was all intact

So?

[ISpyWithMyEye]

When DS Jones collected the silencer from the relatives on 12th Aug you might think he would go prepared with an exhibit bag/label and HO issued stationery for recording witness testimony.  And yet he turned up empty handed but left with a belly full of whisky and the evidence that has underpinned JB's conviction for over 3 decades.

DB who actually found the silencer at WHF provided a w/s on 12th Sep.  AE who stored the silencer at her farmhouse until DS Jones collected on 12th Aug provided a w/s on 8th Sep.

I don’t recall DS Jones knowing what the family had for him to look at; didn’t they just say they’d found “something “ they’d like him to look at? It could have been a letter, anything..

And do you know where he was when he got the message? I seem to remember his colleagues working under Taff Jones didn’t relay the message to him for DAYS

AND do you know what the procedures were back then in collecting sealed bags/containers when making a visit?

And what’s this about DS Jones leaving the Eaton’s with a “bellyful of whisky”? Stop exaggerating — you’re making yourself look silly

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Going by the ITV series I think he probably rolled home.

Is that what you do now you’ve come off the wagon?

[ISpyWithMyEye]

He wasn't that obese, but CVs are notorious for rolling on corners, though they are pretty...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV#/media/File:Citroen_2CV_1X7A7979.jpg

The real DS Jones wasn’t overweight going by the pictures...

Actually, I’m sure police had to be fit back then

Weight in accordance with their height.

It’s all changed now...you don’t need to be above a certain height to join up; don’t even need a good education let alone exams; and can even join up with convictions, albeit minor ones or spent ones

So basically, a dense, dodgy, obese midget who’s can’t waddle fast can join up now.

[ISpyWithMyEye]

So are Reliant Robins!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I prefer the Porsche kit car JB had his eye on!

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1015.msg29645#msg29645

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1015.msg29647#msg29647

I could see him roaring around the Essex countryside with Angie by his side complete with his n her Ray-Bans 

Ironically he might even have had the silencer tweaked to make it sound more throaty!

Porsche are passé

They hold the road well, though

Jeremy Bamber didn’t have class, did he? He aspired to bling

An Aston Martin is much more classy

And to be really classy in the Essex countryside one should nip around in a Morgan 😤

[Brietta]

Porsche are passé

They hold the road well, though

Jeremy Bamber didn’t have class, did he? He aspired to bling

An Aston Martin is much more classy

And to be really classy in the Essex countryside one should nip around in a Morgan 😤

Maybe he didn't have the patience to join the waiting list for a Morgan ... much the same as he didn't have the patience to wait to come into his inheritance.

[ISpyWithMyEye]

If it was an indiscretion by Jeremy Bamber, we'd never hear the last of it.  Whole threads on here would probably be devoted to how Jeremy had a drinking problem and Peter Eaton swears blind that Jeremy downed the whole bottle.  Drinking on duty, while driving, and while collecting a key exhibit, is a very serious lapse that could have jeopardised the whole case.

Unless of course Peter Eaton is lying or exaggerating?

Would Peter Eaton be prone to lying and exaggerating about things?

Peter Eaton said they’d shared some whisky; civilised drinkers sip their drinks occasionally whilst discussing things, so how would you know if DS Jones had, say,  just two glasses filled with ice and a mixer? Do you seriously think DS Jones would have jeopardised his CAREER by driving over the limit?

That’s a ridiculous suggestion.

Besides, what’s this got to do with Jeremy Bamber being a convicted psychopathic mass murderer?

[ISpyWithMyEye]

As evidenced by the w/s's of AE and DB neither made reference to a grey hair attached to the silencer which apparently was lost en route when DI Cook transported it to the lab.  Despite the fact it wasn't seen by anyone at the lab let alone defence experts/lawyers it didn't prevent the prosecution speculating about it at trial to the point the trial judge even mentioned it in his summing up to the jury.

It’s irrelevant, anyway

It’s been proven that Nevill’s head was smashed to a pulp with the rifle...

No point discussing it

The grey hair was lost — end of

[ISpyWithMyEye]

An indiscretion implies a one-off which it wasn't.  DS Jones consumed alcohol at JB's on 7th Aug; on 13th Aug when he collected the silencer from the Eatons and again at the Eatons on 14th Aug when he popped round with DI's Cook and Miller having taken a paint sample from the Aga surround at WHF.

The above are obviously the occasions we know about.

DS Jones had just one drink at the psychopath Jeremy Bamber’s house. So what? He didn’t share a joint with him, though...

Accepting a small nip of whisky when visiting victims homes for long discussions was almost de rigueur back then, Holly

I’m surprised you don’t remember that