The Portuguese Police thought the dogs were 100% accurate.

[Cariad]

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1513.msg112902#msg112902

Thank you, I'll have a look at p38 now.

[Carana]

Thank you, I'll have a look at p38 now.

I find it's worth reading from around pp. 36 - 50 (the later pages include LCG). And pp 116-117 of the Wiltshire report.

[Carana]

What has Ireland got to do with the Portuguese police or the accuracy of dogs?

[John]

Not as "apparently" as that ! Apart from the Southafrican body hunter, the PJ had to investigate a vision of Lagos harbour by a psychic friend of a friend of an aunt or uncle of Mrs McCann. Then Mr McCann had his own vision (tunnel and light) in PDL church. Then Mrs McCann had a dream... that Mr McCann denied outside of the Court room in January 2010. Finally inspector Paiva was submerged by e-mails of psychics that Mr McCann insisted in sending forward to him.
Rationality wasn't invited in this case.

Not wanting to derail but there also was the dreams of lawyer Marcos Aragao Correia who had the McCanns PI's Metodo 3 mystified with his claims that Madeleine had been dumped in a reservoir near Odiáxere.  He originally told police that his information came from the criminal fraternity but later admitted it all originated from a dream.

Dreams and visions certainly appear to have formed a significant part in the investigation over the years.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/maddie-killed-and-dumped-claims-lawyer-966292

[John]

I forgot the McCanns driven to Fatima on the 23th of May by a chauffeur offered by Mark Warner.
And the pope on the 30th making the sign of the cross on a photo of Madeleine !
Ah and a certain butterfly on Mrs McCann's shoulder at the same moment !
Madeleine didn't get out of the flat through the window but rationality certainly did.

     You're on top form tonight Anne, your knowledge of the supernatural elements in this case are second to none.  Dave must learn to keep to the facts and accept when he has been shown to be wrong.

[John]

good evening ferryman...when will the posters on this and other forums realise that the dogs alert and it is up to the experts to interpret these alerts. it seems that posters here actually think they are experts ...what a load of plonkers

A very narrow view if I may say so Dave.  Nobody has claimed to be an 'expert' but posters are free to use their own eyes and knowledge gained in life to explain what they see and offer an opinion.  You don't have to be an expert to see that there was a lot of dodgy stuff going on...imo

[Benice]

   You're on top form tonight Anne, your knowledge of the supernatural elements in this case are second to none.  Dave must learn to keep to the facts.

I suppose it all depends on whether you are religious or not.   

All religions appear to be full of 'dreams' and 'visions - all taken very seriously by their followers.

In times of trouble people do turn to religion in my experience, although I've never heard of a 'dream' causing a pivotal change in the direction of a police enquiry - but that is apparently what happened in the McCann case according to Ricardo Paivo(sp?).       A notably unprofessional approach to be taken by any policeman IMO.

OOps sorry - off topic.

 





 

[AnneGuedes]

You don't have to be an expert to see that there was a lot of dodgy stuff going on...imo

I disagree totally here : you have to be an expert precisely !

[Redblossom]

   You're on top form tonight Anne, your knowledge of the supernatural elements in this case are second to none.  Dave must learn to keep to the facts and accept when he has been shown to be wrong.

+1

He accused Anne of spreading myths about gerrys vision and gerry giving countless psychic contacts to the PJ to check out  when he didnt know the facts....suggested also heard down the local chippy! No myths whatsoever in either  and proved not to be by the links provided  and not even a thanks from him  for the links or an acceptance he was wrong or an apology.....hmmmmmm

HIS original post, now defunct null and void

Quote
Anne you are perpetuating a myth...where is your proof that Mr McCann had a vision...or sent in emails from psychics....stories from your friend down the chip shop don't count...please try and stick to facts otherwise you undermine your whole credibility

Unquote


 

apology or thanks  required davel..... But hell will freeze over first i guess....oh well

[John]

What has Ireland got to do with the Portuguese police or the accuracy of dogs?

Could it be another attempt to disrupt debate?

[John]

I disagree totally here : you have to be an expert precisely !

Are you really saying that you need to be an expert to see that the dog tests were a shambles?

[Benice]

From what I can gather of the general Jersey fiasco, I find it important to separate the abuse investigation from the potential murder aspect. Checking whether there was evidence to support a murder investigation is legitimate, IMO. However, there seems to have been a cocktail of factors that cost Jersey unnecessary millions and - at the end of the day - no probative evidence. 

From the report into the Jersey investigation into the use of resources: 


We have provided detailed comment regarding Mr Grime, because, as we will explain, he had (directly and indirectly) a significant influence on the conduct, and thus cost, of the investigation, far beyond simply the fees and costs incurred by himself, albeit we do have some concerns about the cost of Mr Grime's services.

http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20OperationRectangleReviewUseResources%20201005%20BDO.pdf#page=45&zoom=80,0,820

The pages about the general forensics (the dogs and LCG) are on pp 36-50.

Much of the criticism in that report isn't about Grime, per se, but about the lack of supervision / management that led to expensive excavations whenever the dogs alerted. 

Then, there is the Wiltshire report which went further (pp. 116-117):

"The review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’. It is accepted that dogs are ‘presumptive screening assets’ only and that any alerts or indications they give must be forensically corroborated. In addition, it is a fact that there were no concise terms of reference for the deployment of Martin GRIME and his EVRD or his subsequent use as a search advisor, apparently with the support of DCO HARPER.

3.10.13 CO POWER himself states ‘the search dog seemed to play a significant role in determining whether a specific location needed to be examined further. I am not an expert on dogs or what they do’.

3.10.14 Again, there is a distinct lack of documentary evidence to show any intrusive supervision of the SIO with regard to the continued search. This Inquiry concludes that the actions of DCO HARPER and Martin GRIME went unsupervised for some considerable time."


"OFFICER X notes that during conversation with X, CO POWER accepted that ‘the dog was ‘probably unreliable’ and that the dog handler, GRIME, had too much influence over the enquiry, again, Mr POWER didn’t say how he managed or dealt with that issue’. This Inquiry has been unable to establish whether CO POWER made any further attempts to supervise the SIO in this key part of the investigation."

http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf

Thanks for those links Carana.    Amongst other very interesting points -   'Coconutgate' is described and explained - and it's clear that what was originally claimed to be human bone - turned out not to be.

It would seem that Martin Grime was given a totally free rein - with no questions asked.    All I can say is that he must have been laughing all the way to the bank.   

An expensive fiasco paid for by the taxpayers - and nothing to show for it  IMO.   

[AnneGuedes]

Are you really saying that you need to be an expert to see that the dog tests were a shambles?

Absolutely, you have to be an expert to discriminate between what exists and what seems to.

[Redblossom]

Thanks for those links Carana.    Amongst other very interesting points -   'Coconutgate' is described and explained - and it's clear that what was originally claimed to be human bone - turned out not to be.

It would seem that Martin Grime was given a totally free rein - with no questions asked.    All I can say is that he must have been laughing all the way to the bank.   

An expensive fiasco paid for by the taxpayers - and nothing to show for it  IMO.

Pathetic post all in all and  you  wouldnt  be saying that if you had read all the facts in this case, which you  obviously havent..just tagging along with the Grime libellers...Coconut case ? Youre having a laugh....educate yourself before spouting..No, seriously do....your FIRST port of call should be, does Eddie trained in decomposing bodies react to vegetables..your second port of call should be that coconuts do not contain collagen which is only found in mammals, collagen was found in the sample, your third port of call should be, why was the sample switched.?..after being examined by an expert who said it was a skull to when it was returned and had shrunk in size and weight..lots of reading for you, enjoy...googles not bad...but if you have  time you can check out the video library here, find the video posted by John about eddie at Jersey and see my reply sbowing a video featuring the investigator in that case and what he said about THAT sample which has gotten everyones nickers in a twist

[Benice]

Pathetic post all in all and  you  wouldnt  be saying that if you had read all the facts in this case, which you  obviously havent..just tagging along with the Grime libellers...Coconut case ? Youre having a laugh....educate yourself before spouting..No, seriously do....your FIRST port of call should be, does Eddie trained in decomposing bodies react to vegetables..your second port of call should be that coconuts do not contain collagen which is only found in mammals, collagen was found in the sample, your third port of call should be, why was the sample switched.?...lots of reading for you, enjoy

You are shooting the messenger.    Read the reports for yourself.   Or do you think you know the details of what happened better than those who compiled the reports.

The only people who libel Grime IMO are those who dispute his claims and insist that there must have been a body in 5A at some time.