The Portuguese Police thought the dogs were 100% accurate.

[Lyall]

Everybody knew there were no remains of any origin in the 5A. But there were Volatile Organic Compounds...impalpable but extremely complex... and catchable in the STU-100 device (Scent Transfer Unit). Unfortunately the device arrived in Portimao too late.

John should remember the Soham case, Anne. Police had possession of the house 12 days after the murders. They purchased it and no house in criminal history was examined so throughly. They took it to pieces, but still no dna from the victims was ever found there.

[AnneGuedes]

Lets not exaggerate or elevate the evidence of the dog handler in any murder trial where a body has never been found.  The handler's evidence can never stand alone and no-one has ever been convicted on that basis.  The convictions to which Anne refers in her posts were dependent on other mitigating factors.

The interesting common point in all the cases I reported above is that there were no remains, John, nothing you can put under a microscope and study ! Nothing but volatile organic compounds that only a dog (or a cat possibly, but cat cant be trained) can detect.
Once said that, of course you have to trust the handler... which some posters aren't prone to... as the dog alerted in the 5A instead of alerting elsewhere or not at all.

[Benice]

Madeleine shared DNA with both her parents and her twin siblings.  Only a full profile match (currently 20 markers in the UK) could determine whom the DNA belonged to.  In the US and Canada I believe the threshold is much less.

To put this into context, you are much more likely to be convicted in America on the basis of DNA evidence than you are in the UK.  In the Jeremy Bamber case, the DNA obtained from a silencer returned a 17 marker match to one of the victims.  Under UK Law this was not considered proof of anything yet the probability of that DNA not belonging to that victim is many millions to one.  Thus one can see that the legal bar in the UK is set very high.

Wasn't it 15 out of 37 markers in the McCann case?  Not 15 out of 19.

The sample was identified as belonging to up to 5 people -  and could have come from any one or more of the McCann family.

IMO - as we know Gerry at some time was in that car with a trace of blood on his fingers which was transferred to the key fob, then it could easily have been his blood found in the boot - deposited at the same time.         

The sample was too small to be identified as blood - only as cellular material, but as we know Keela only alerts to blood then it's reasonable to assume it was blood IMO.

[John]

Police Liaison Officers are there to mediate, to provide support and to report back.  What happened to Kate reminds me of what happened to Luke Mitchell.  He and his family also befriended a female PLO who in turn testified against them.  You just can't trust anyone these days!

[AnneGuedes]

John should remember the Soham case, Anne. Police had possession of the house 12 days after the murders. They purchased it and no house in criminal history was examined so throughly. They took it to pieces, but still no dna from the victims was ever found there.

It's difficult for the human being to acknowledge intangible reality. We don't see the thousands of bugs that creep on our skin, even after a shower. As we don't see anything, there's nothing. In the Anthony Case, the air of the boot was analysed with the LIBS (Laser induced Breakdown Spectroscopy) procedure. They found various VOC that are specific of human remains. Later cadaver dogs alerted on the car boot as well.

[Lyall]

It's difficult for the human being to acknowledge intangible reality. We don't see the thousands of bugs that creep on our skin, even after a shower. As we don't see anything, there's nothing. In the Anthony Case, the air of the boot was analysed with the LIBS (Laser induced Breakdown Spectroscopy) procedure. They found various VOC that are specific of human remains. Later cadaver dogs alerted on the car boot as well.

Also at Anthony's house (two different dogs). I know that case fairly well. I read a book (Jeff Ashton's. It's quite informative).

That's another case where no dna from the victim was found in the locations police looked, but clearly they still believed the body had been there.

[AnneGuedes]

Police Liaison Officers are there to mediate, to provide support and to report back.  What happened to Kate reminds me of what happened to Luke Mitchell.  He and his family also befriended a female PLO who in turn testified against them.  You just can't trust anyone these days!

Really ! Aren't you mixing towels with dishcloths ? Did Luke Mitchell (no idea of who he is) tell also his private dreams to that female PLO ? And if so, what for exactly ?
Do you realize that Mrs McCann didn't call on the phone her husband (in the US) but called a police officer, crying, to tell a dream ! Isn't that a bit too much ? Why didn't she talk to a priest ? The secret of confession isn't a myth, remember "I confess"...
When Mr Pike claimed that Mrs McCann spoke only to him about death, I thought he was presumptuous, but perhaps he was right to think Mr McCann wasn't told those thoughts.

[pathfinder73]

Madeleine shared DNA with both her parents and her twin siblings.  Only a full profile match (currently 20 markers in the UK) could legally determine whom the DNA belonged to.  In the US and Canada I believe the threshold is much less.  I'm not sure where Portuguese Law stood on this in 2007 but as it was a new science at the time they must have agreed to be guided by UK standards.

To put this into context, you are much more likely to be convicted in America on the basis of DNA evidence than you are in the UK.  In the Jeremy Bamber case, the DNA obtained from a silencer returned a 17 marker match to one of the victims.  Under UK Law this was not considered proof of anything yet the probability of that DNA not belonging to that victim is many millions to one.  Thus one can see that the legal bar in the UK is set very high.

Thanks John for the insight, much appreciated.

[AnneGuedes]

Also at Anthony's house (two different dogs). I know that case fairly well. I read a book (Jeff Ashton's. It's quite informative).

That's another case where no dna from the victim was found in the locations police looked, but clearly they still believed the body had been there.

It's funny to read the objections of the defence. A copy cat of what we read on this forum... The hungry dog smelt a piece of food ! The handler cued the dog, etc...
I suppose it will be so until they achieve the electronic nose for human remains (electronic noses already exist for certain diseases).
Does Ashton's book say much about Vass conclusions, the contest of those conclusions (there was) and the cadaver dogs ?

[Benice]

Police Liaison Officers are there to mediate, to provide support and to report back.  What happened to Kate reminds me of what happened to Luke Mitchell.  He and his family also befriended a female PLO who in turn testified against them.  You just can't trust anyone these days!

The McCanns went to dinner at the Paivo's - their children played with his children.   They liked him and trusted him and so I can understand Kate ringing him at such a time.

I believe it was the Family Liaison Officer in the Shannon Matthews case who became suspicious of her mother's behaviour and set the ball rolling for her eventual arrest.      But it was definitely nothing to do with a dream.

(I'm afraid I don't know who Luke Mitchell is)

[Lyall]

It's funny to read the objections of the defence. A copy cat of what we read on this forum... The hungry dog smelt a piece of food ! The handler cued the dog, etc...
I suppose it will be so until they achieve the electronic nose for human remains (electronic noses already exist for certain diseases).
Does Ashton's book say much about Vass conclusions, the contest of those conclusions (there was) and the cadaver dogs ?

Ashton does talk a lot about Dr Vass. He's a big fan, of the science and the Dr himself. But he acknowledges that the science is in its infancy, but so was dna evidence at one time and Ashton was the first prosecutor to use it in trial in the US.

I'll have to read it again to check exactly what Ashton says about the evidence of Dr Vass in the trial. But it is all discussed in the book.

I read the book written by Casey Anthony's attorney also. Unsurprisingly he thinks the dogs, Dr Vass and his machine is "more science fiction than science".

[colombosstogey]

The interesting common point in all the cases I reported above is that there were no remains, John, nothing you can put under a microscope and study ! Nothing but volatile organic compounds that only a dog (or a cat possibly, but cat cant be trained) can detect.
Once said that, of course you have to trust the handler... which some posters aren't prone to... as the dog alerted in the 5A instead of alerting elsewhere or not at all.

Am i Psychic probably not but I would predict 100per cent predict that IF the dogs alerted to the Murats car and the Murats house and drive way and clothes, all the doggy and handler doubters would be in their droves on here saying how WONDERFUL the dogs were, what clever doggies they were to finding the perb who took the child, with or without a body.....

and thats the sad truth..........say its not so all you doubters I wouldnt believe you anyway.

You can all spin it how you like it makes no difference the child is still missing, no body has been found, and no one has been charged with her death/abduction/kidnapping.

The post about the dogs and Amaral is like Ground Hog day. NOTHING NEW comes out of it, and it goes on and on blah blah blah.

POINTLESS exercise. Pointless thread. Cadaver dogs are still being used quite successfully and because of their usage even cold cases are now being closed.

[Carana]

Madeleine shared DNA with both her parents and her twin siblings.  Only a full profile match (currently 20 markers in the UK) could legally determine whom the DNA belonged to.  In the US and Canada I believe the threshold is much less.  I'm not sure where Portuguese Law stood on this in 2007 but as it was a new science at the time they must have agreed to be guided by UK standards.

To put this into context, you are much more likely to be convicted in America on the basis of DNA evidence than you are in the UK.  In the Jeremy Bamber case, the DNA obtained from a silencer returned a 17 marker match to one of the victims.  Under UK Law this was not considered proof of anything yet the probability of that DNA not belonging to that victim is many millions to one.  Thus one can see that the legal bar in the UK is set very high.

It's the other way around, John.

The UK uses STM+ based on 10 markers (10 pairs of alleles).

The US CODIS system is based on 13 markers.

The INML used two different systems each based on 15 markers (many were the same, but there were a few different ones).

[Mr Gray]

I agree with this. I'm an atheist though. The Mccann's reliance on psychic's and the like is well documented. It's not a myth.

Where is the evidence for their reliance on psychics

[stephen25000]

Where is the evidence for their reliance on psychics

You should have seen that one coming.