Author Topic: The Cracked Mirror.  (Read 118249 times)

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Redblossom

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Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #135 on: July 19, 2013, 10:59:04 PM »

Rachel Granada

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Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #136 on: July 20, 2013, 01:12:45 AM »
What, like this from Chinagirl ?

http://stopthemyths.prophpbb.com/topic1073.html

Great find, hadn't seen this before. An excellent piece.


Offline faithlilly

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #137 on: July 20, 2013, 01:33:26 AM »
Great find, hadn't seen this before. An excellent piece.

So you question the reliability of the piece  when the gentleman McLeod uses links to newspaper reports as references in his writings but not when Chinagirl does, is that correct ?   @)(++(*
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Rachel Granada

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Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #138 on: July 20, 2013, 01:53:16 AM »
So you question the reliability of the piece  when the gentleman McLeod uses links to newspaper reports as references in his writings but not when Chinagirl does, is that correct ?   @)(++(*

I wouldn't use the words "gentleman" or "reliability" to describe McLeod, faith! Chinagirl has used her recognised posting handle for her piece, yet McLeod has used a false name.  I wonder why?   @)(++(*

PS) Any more news on where you got the translation from in the David Payne Visit thread?

stephen25000

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Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #139 on: July 20, 2013, 07:07:11 AM »
I wouldn't use the words "gentleman" or "reliability" to describe McLeod, faith! Chinagirl has used her recognised posting handle for her piece, yet McLeod has used a false name.  I wonder why?   @)(++(*

PS) Any more news on where you got the translation from in the David Payne Visit thread?

What rollocks. Using a false name in both cases. 8-)(--)

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #140 on: July 20, 2013, 08:30:57 AM »
But Stephen has not doubted the veracity of someone who posts under a false name.

That's the difference.

Thanks Albertini.

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #141 on: July 20, 2013, 04:44:34 PM »
I wouldn't use the words "gentleman" or "reliability" to describe McLeod, faith! Chinagirl has used her recognised posting handle for her piece, yet McLeod has used a false name.  I wonder why?   @)(++(*

PS) Any more news on where you got the translation from in the David Payne Visit thread?

So Chinagirl is her real name, is it ? If not I really don't see how you are in a position to question  this gentleman for not using his real name either. As to the content of the articles, both used newspaper articles as reference, in fact from a quick perusal Chinagirl actually uses more than McLeod.

Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Rachel Granada

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Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #142 on: July 21, 2013, 12:25:54 AM »
So Chinagirl is her real name, is it ? If not I really don't see how you are in a position to question  this gentleman for not using his real name either. As to the content of the articles, both used newspaper articles as reference, in fact from a quick perusal Chinagirl actually uses more than McLeod.

So, faithlilly is your real name then?

Redblossom

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Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #143 on: July 21, 2013, 12:34:23 AM »
So, faithlilly is your real name then?

Best not to fudge and bi tch  but read back, its best

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #144 on: July 21, 2013, 01:45:50 AM »
So, faithlilly is your real name then?

It's not me that as the problem with people using non de plumes but you, remember ?  @)(++(*
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Rachel Granada

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #145 on: July 21, 2013, 01:50:16 AM »
It's not me that as the problem with people using non de plumes but you, remember ?  @)(++(*

So why are you not using your real name on here, then?

Offline Chinagirl

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #146 on: July 21, 2013, 02:26:32 AM »
Of course "Chinagirl" is not my real life name.  However, it is the nom de plume I have used consistently in every forum I have posted in about this case for the past six years. No one needs to speculate about whether I'm the same person who said a certain thing on such-and-such a forum and is now saying something else on another.  I don't think there are many people posting about this case, pro or anti, who have maintained the same identity throughout.

And as a matter of interest, I started out being considerably sceptical about the McCanns and the abduction, but became increasingly disillusioned by what I saw as inept handling of the investigation by Amaral and his team, so that by the time the arguido status was lifted and the files released, commonsense, innate sympathy for the parents, and a firm belief in the well-established legal principle of the presumption of innocence caused me to become what is known as a "pro." This is the stance I have maintained ever since, and for which I feel fully justified, given the latest pronouncements by Scotland Yard and the final report of the Portuguese AG.
A

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #147 on: July 21, 2013, 10:33:25 AM »
Of course "Chinagirl" is not my real life name.  However, it is the nom de plume I have used consistently in every forum I have posted in about this case for the past six years. No one needs to speculate about whether I'm the same person who said a certain thing on such-and-such a forum and is now saying something else on another.  I don't think there are many people posting about this case, pro or anti, who have maintained the same identity throughout.

And as a matter of interest, I started out being considerably sceptical about the McCanns and the abduction, but became increasingly disillusioned by what I saw as inept handling of the investigation by Amaral and his team, so that by the time the arguido status was lifted and the files released, commonsense, innate sympathy for the parents, and a firm belief in the well-established legal principle of the presumption of innocence caused me to become what is known as a "pro." This is the stance I have maintained ever since, and for which I feel fully justified, given the latest pronouncements by Scotland Yard and the final report of the Portuguese AG.

Given the sheer hatred and vitriol displayed on forums over this case, from both sides of the argument, i have no problem in anyone using a false name or a forum handle to conceal their identity. After all some of the "tactics" used to discredit posters and commentators borders on criminal at times.

I have no problem ignoring the writer's name (or several names) and concentrating on the writer's words to see if what they say is credible and makes sense to me.

Thank you for the background to your own position. I had heard of you before but did not know the back story.

Clearly we have differing views but i respect that fact, and i am certainly not interested in hunting you down and finding out your real name, address, family and occupation like some of the more extreme elements do.

It strikes me as one of the bizarre facets of discussion of the case online, the way normal (and presumably) decent people can becoming raving and raging monsters, uncovering names, addresses, occupations when discussing this case.

It's not merely about disagreeing with what someone says. It is about trying to destroy them online.

Utterley despicable and completely nonesensical to me.

Just a couple of points to pick up on though.

First of all the presumption of innocence. That is to be applied when a suspect arrives in a Court and not in an investigative phase (which is where we are now), which is why we had the archiving report's famous "failure to prove their innocence" paragraph.

After all police forces around the world require suspects to provide alibis and evidence to remove them from suspicion. So in an investigative phase there is no presumption of innocence until that suspect can be definitively shown to be innocent through alibis, forenscis or verifiable facts for example. 

In relation to the presumption of innocent until proven guilty even in a Court, there are degrees of innocence as confirmed by the recent Barry George compensation case and the Judge's ruling.

Finally on the AG report, i know i keep repeating this but it needs to keep being said until it is acknowledged. The AG had no legal powers to proclaim the Mccann's not guilty. Only a Judge in a court can do that. The AG was a public prosecutor, who was effectively saying in his opinion, he did not have evidence to proceed with a criminal case against the McCann's.

The UK equivalent would be of the CPS to say they aren't taking a case to court as they have insufficient evidence. 

That is not the same, as seems to have been swallowed by supporters of the Mccann's that a Judge has found them not guilty in a court.

It is not the same and clearly needs understanding as such.

Let us be clear that the only time that the PJ's evdience was put before a court was in the Amaral/Mccann Book Supreme Court trial where those jusdges (real Judges, in a real Court) decided that the AG's findings were simply an interepretation of the evidence, and that Amaral's thesis was an equally vaid "police-led" interpretation of those same facts:

"What is certain is that since the start of the investigation, there were incongruent and even contradictory situations concerning the witness statements, the telephone records of calls that were made and received on mobile phones that belonged to the couple and to the group of friends that were on holidays with them, the movements of people immediately after the disappearance of the little girl was noticed, concerning the state in which the bedroom from where the child disappeared from was found (closed window? open window? partially open window?), etc., and the mystery would only become even thicker due to the clues that were left by the aforementioned sniffer dogs."

"Where Amaral differs from the Prosecutors who wrote the dispatch, is in the logical, police-work-related and investigative interpretation that he makes of those facts."


We need, to stress the following: the facts that led to the applicants' constitution as arguidos within the inquiry were later on not sufficiently valued by the Public Ministry's Prosecutors to lead to a criminal accusation, but those very same facts, seen from a different angle, may lead to a different conclusion from that of the prosecutors.

Suggestive data ("indications") that were deemed to be insufficient in terms of evidence in a criminal investigation, can be appreciated in a different way, in an interpretation that can legitimately be published as a book, as long as the interpretation does not offend any fundamental rights of anyone involved. In our view that said interpretation does not offend the applicants' rights."

Finally in relation to the Yard's work, i too am happy for them to go about their business. I do not think we are getting the full picture from Cider Andy, but we shouldn't be either given the investigation is still live.

As i stated yesterday, his "38 persons of interest line" seems hugely irrresponsible if he truly believes Madeleine is still alive.

That comment could spook any abductor into "getting rid of the evidence", as they would have no idea if they are one of the "persons of interest". Best to dump the evidence just in case.......

I would rather wait until the END of the investigation to see what Redwood has to say, as we know investigations should ebb and flow where the evidence takes it.

If at the end he has an abductor then i will be more than happy to see that, as we all, irrespective of which side of the fence we are on want closure for Madeleine's sake.

However he needs to make sure that the evidence he uncovers is cast iron because short of a confession, on the evidence so far seen, the case will be a defence lawyer's wet dream and convicting an abductor on the evidence of what is there at the moment will be nigh on impossible.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 10:41:01 AM by Albertini »

Offline Benice

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #148 on: July 21, 2013, 10:56:03 AM »

What is there in the following which would lead anyone to conclude there was a failure to prove their innocence:-
---------------------------------------------

The following is extracted from Tugendhat J's judgment in the matter of McCann v Bennett:

the Report of the District Attorney dated 21 July 2008, a copy of which is exhibited to the third affidavit of Ms Martorell. That includes the following (in translation):

QUOTE

1. "With regard to other possible crimes, whilst we cannot dismiss the possibility of a killing, given the high degree of probability, there is no evidence for this in the case records.

The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that

2.    they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance,

3.     their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses,

4.     the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports…  None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later;

5.    there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police,

6 .    the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and

7.     the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless
….

 Therefore having considered the foregoing, I order:
… b) Filing of the papers concerning the suspects Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, as there is no evidence that they committed any crime defined by Article 277.1 of the Code of Criminal Procedure.”

END QUOTE
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #149 on: July 21, 2013, 11:30:46 AM »
What is there in the following which would lead anyone to conclude there was a failure to prove their innocence:-
---------------------------------------------

The following is extracted from Tugendhat J's judgment in the matter of McCann v Bennett:

the Report of the District Attorney dated 21 July 2008, a copy of which is exhibited to the third affidavit of Ms Martorell. That includes the following (in translation):

QUOTE

1. "With regard to other possible crimes, whilst we cannot dismiss the possibility of a killing, given the high degree of probability, there is no evidence for this in the case records.

The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that

2.    they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance,

3.     their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses,

4.     the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports…  None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later;

5.    there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police,

6 .    the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and

7.     the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless
….

 Therefore having considered the foregoing, I order:
… b) Filing of the papers concerning the suspects Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, as there is no evidence that they committed any crime defined by Article 277.1 of the Code of Criminal Procedure.”

END QUOTE

Because you are selectively quoting from the same Archiving report.

What about this from the same report:

Nevertheless, despite national authorities assuming all measures to render their trip to Portugal viable, for unknown motives, after the many doubts that they raised about the necessity and opportunity of their trip were clarified several times, they chose not to attend, which rendered the diligence inviable.
 
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.