Author Topic: The Cracked Mirror.  (Read 118194 times)

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Offline Benice

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #180 on: July 21, 2013, 07:07:41 PM »
I'm sorry to say, Benice, you've got it all wrong.
1) Had you been at the trial in which the McCanns were present as the accusers, you would have seen their legal representant Mrs Duarte arguing against Mr Amaral, his editor and the TV producer.

I was referring to the ex parte Judgement which I understand the McCanns had no knowledge of until after it was done and dusted.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear.


The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #181 on: July 21, 2013, 07:34:55 PM »
I was referring to the ex parte Judgement which I understand the McCanns had no knowledge of until after it was done and dusted.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
Which part ? The Appeal ? I already answered on this, Benice, no legal representant is present in a civil court appeal. The judges judge the judgement made by the minor court.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 07:36:52 PM by AnneGuedes »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #182 on: July 21, 2013, 08:10:23 PM »
I will read the rest, but this took my eye:

 ...since a criminal trial is exclusively concerned with determining guilt, not innocence

By that reckoning, then, no one tried is ever found innocent ...

Is the rest of the article worth reading?

A trial finds the defendant guilty or not guilty. No one is ever found to be innocent when tried

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #183 on: July 22, 2013, 07:03:52 AM »
Scroll down to the part underlined

CPS Statement – R v Rayment and others

22/03/2005

Her Honour Judge Anne Goddard QC has discharged the jury in the trial of R v Rayment and others at the Old Bailey today.

The trial, which started in June 2003, dealt with an alleged fraud over contracts for the construction of London's Jubilee Line Extension Project (JLEP). It was always anticipated to be a lengthy trial because of the size and complexity of the case.

The prosecution closed its case in August 2004. However, in the seven months since the prosecution closed its case the jury has heard defence evidence on only 10 days of the available 140, amounting to approx 22.5 hours. The majority of the delays during this period have been caused through illness of the defendants, principally Mr Skinner.

Since the case started there have been substantial delays because of illnesses suffered by a number of jurors, one of the defendants and defence counsel, and because of other unexpected and unavoidable commitments of jurors.

On 14 March the judge adjourned the case to allow defence and prosecution counsel to consider their position in relation to an issue about one of the jurors. The Crown also asked for additional time to consider the wider issues of the trial. Counsel for the Crown, Patrick Upward QC, told the court today that after very careful consideration of all aspects of the case the Crown was now able to explain its position to the court.

He explained that significant time had been lost during the trial for various reasons and most recently there had been long delays in the course of the defence case because of illness. To date, over a period of five months, the jury had heard 22 hours of evidence from Mr Skinner, the first defendant to give evidence - the equivalent of five working court days. He explained that time had been lost since January because of counsel's illness, Mr Skinner's recurring illness and illness amongst members of the jury, and that the jury had heard no evidence since 1 st February. Taking into consideration the evidence still to be heard, jurors' necessary commitments and the time needed for summing-up, it was unlikely that the jury would be able to retire to consider its verdict before mid-September.

Mr Upward said:

"For reasons beyond the Crown's control, we have now reached a point at which minimal progress has been made since the beginning of the year; impetus has now ceased. We are now at the stage when this can only lead to unfairness. Furthermore, we are faced with the prospect of continuing delay and disruption.

"The Crown has a duty to the public to ensure that every trial is fair and is seen to be fair. We have now concluded that the continuation of this trial would undermine that fundamental principle.

"We are satisfied that this prosecution was properly brought, based on reliable evidence of substantial criminality. We believe that the counts in the indictment reflect the risk occasioned to the economic interests of London Underground Limited and as such properly mirror the extent of that criminality. We also believe that there is a high public interest in ensuring that criminality of such magnitude is brought fully to justice. For these reasons, we have pursued the prosecution for many months with determination. However, the accumulation of delays to date, the further delays that it is known that we face and the disruption of the evidence, most particularly that of the accused, leads us to conclude that the time has been reached when no jury, no matter how diligent and no matter how clearly directed, can be expected to determine the guilt or innocence of the accused in a way that would be regarded as fair by the objective bystander."

The Director of Casework at the CPS, Chris Newell said:

"I should like first to pay tribute to the jury for their hard work, care and commitment. We all owe them a huge debt of gratitude.

"The allegations in this case were very serious and it was clearly in the public interest to bring them before a court and to have them tried by a jury. Ultimately, for the reasons set out by counsel in court, this has not been possible and it is a matter of grave concern that such an important prosecution should end in this way.

"The Attorney General has asked Stephen Wooler, the Chief Inspector of Her Majesty's CPS Inspectorate, to conduct an inquiry. I welcome this. I and my staff - and, of course, counsel instructed - will do all that we can to assist Mr Wooler in his work. It is essential that the criminal justice system as a whole learns from this experience and that the exceptional circumstances that brought it about are never repeated."

The Crown has now taken a decision not to seek a retrial on this indictment and has informed the court that it will not be offering any evidence against the defendants on outstanding indictments relating to this matter. The judge has entered not guilty verdicts against all defendants. Paul Maw pleaded guilty in June 2003.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #184 on: July 22, 2013, 07:56:18 AM »
not guilty legal definition
noun

1.A determination by a jury that the evidence is insufficient to convict the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt.

that's the legal definition. does that prove innocence?  No

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #185 on: July 22, 2013, 08:33:50 AM »
Plenty:

http://amaralfiction.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/plea-bargains-and-lies-but-not-lies-you.html

Nope theres no evidence there that a plea bargain was offered (which i understand to be illegal anyway in Portugal).

And given Aunty Phil's public utterings on 4th May about "Some people may ask why they left the children alone in the apartment but it was locked and they had a full view of the front door and they were checking every half hour" then i'm inclined not to believe her.

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #186 on: July 22, 2013, 08:34:51 AM »
Try again

The clue is in the last two words of your post, or not

Nope, you still don't understand, keep reading and if you're still struggling to keep up give me a shout and i'll try and explain it for you in simpler terms.  8((()*/

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #187 on: July 22, 2013, 08:36:34 AM »
I was referring to the ex parte Judgement which I understand the McCanns had no knowledge of until after it was done and dusted.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Which was "done" on the basis of the judges reviewing the evidence brought previously. They looked at all that Durate had said, so, if she was as good as is being portrayed why didn't she get these game changing "anomalies" in there then?

Offline Benice

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #188 on: July 22, 2013, 08:45:54 AM »
I don't normally quote specific extracts from posts, but I'll make an exception on this one.

Good grief! The McCann's brought the action against Amaral so of course they had representation.

If you aren't prepared to accept documented rulings by a Judge in a Court of Law, readily available on the web, then you should not really be commentating on the case.

This one sentence alone shows that you see only what you want to see and disregard irrefutable evidence that doesn't match your preconceived ideas.

For the record i did not not say it THE JUDGES DID!

Clearly you do not understand the following:

The nature and role of a public prosecutor
The difference, legally, between what is essentially a "District Attorney" and a Judge
The nature of what the archiving summary states and it's legal weight
The difference between proving your innocence in an investigation and being "innocent until proven guilty" in a court case.
The nature of the legal position in Portugal of the archiving summary in comparison to the PJ's thesis as ruled by the Judges

If you did understand these things then you would, as those McCann supporters who do, not touch the archiving report nor the Judges summary with a barge pole, as it does your case no good to keep quoting it and embarrassing yourself.

For the final time to you let's review once again.

The archiving report stated the investigation was "disturbed" because for reasons unknown the Tapas crew wouldn't come back to perform the reconstruction.

The archiving report IN THE AUTHORS OPINION (I.E. THE PUBLIC PROSECUTOR) said that no evidence had been found that the Mccann's had committed a crime.

However as a result of the "disturbed" (i.e. incomplete investigation) the Mccann's had not proven their innocence.

The book Judges ruled that the PJ's interpretation was an equally valid interpretation of the same facts.

Until you grasp these fairly basic concepts we will get nowhere and you will continue to look silly.

I disagree.

If the AG had decided that because the McCanns did not attend a reconstruction -  that prevented him from categorically clearing them from any involvement in her disappearance then he would have said so - and given that as the reason  -  and IMO the final report would have read something like this:-
 
The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is NOT apparent -  from the fact that they did not attend the requested reconstruction
 
Therefore having considered the foregoing, I order:
 
Filing of the papers concerning the suspects Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, as there is INSUFFICIENT evidence to continue with the process.   
                                                                     
 
But obviously that was not his FINAL conclusion because he did categorically state that:-
 
''The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action IS apparent...
 
Therefore having considered the foregoing, I order:
 
b) Filing of the papers concerning the suspects Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, as there is NO evidence that they committed any crime defined by Article 277.1 of the Code of Criminal Procedure''

 
There is no ambiguity there - the report clearly states that there is no evidence that they committed any crime.
 
I'm sure the AG was aware that the McCanns did not refuse to attend the reconstructon but were prevented from doing so because of the PJ's stipulation that unless everyone attended it would not be taking place.  Therefore he recognised they were not at fault.
IMO

 
 
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #189 on: July 22, 2013, 08:54:09 AM »
not guilty legal definition
noun

1.A determination by a jury that the evidence is insufficient to convict the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt.

that's the legal definition. does that prove innocence?  No

Key part from the link above:

However, the accumulation of delays to date, the further delays that it is known that we face and the disruption of the evidence, most particularly that of the accused, leads us to conclude that the time has been reached when no jury, no matter how diligent and no matter how clearly directed, can be expected to determine the guilt or innocence of the accused in a way that would be regarded as fair by the objective bystander."

Unless you think a dictionary knows better than the CPS?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #190 on: July 22, 2013, 08:55:45 AM »
What advice does the mod team have on how to respond to blatant goading by posters who long ago lost the argument?

This board doesn't have an ignore button, does it?

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #191 on: July 22, 2013, 08:56:28 AM »
I disagree.

If the AG had decided that because the McCanns did not attend a reconstruction -  that prevented him from categorically clearing them from any involvement in her disappearance then he would have said so - and given that as the reason  -  and IMO the final report would have read something like this:-
 
The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is NOT apparent -  from the fact that they did not attend the requested reconstruction
 
Therefore having considered the foregoing, I order:
 
Filing of the papers concerning the suspects Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, as there is INSUFFICIENT evidence to continue with the process.   
                                                                     
 
But obviously that was not his FINAL conclusion because he did categorically state that:-
 
''The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action IS apparent...
 
Therefore having considered the foregoing, I order:
 
b) Filing of the papers concerning the suspects Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, as there is NO evidence that they committed any crime defined by Article 277.1 of the Code of Criminal Procedure''

 
There is no ambiguity there - the report clearly states that there is no evidence that they committed any crime.
 
I'm sure the AG was aware that the McCanns did not refuse to attend the reconstructon but were prevented from doing so because of the PJ's stipulation that unless everyone attended it would not be taking place.  Therefore he recognised they were not at fault.
IMO

Morning Benice.

I do not agree as the archiving report has a lengthy section regarding the reconstruction which clearly states:

Quote
In this sense, the legal procedures were followed, according to the norms and conventions that are in force, and the appearance of the witnesses was requested, inviting them to be present inclusively appealing to solidarity with the McCann couple, as it is certain that since the beginning they adhered to that process diligence.
 
Nevertheless, despite national authorities assuming all measures to render their trip to Portugal viable, for unknown motives, after the many doubts that they raised about the necessity and opportunity of their trip were clarified several times, they chose not to attend, which rendered the diligence inviable.
 
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #192 on: July 22, 2013, 09:06:51 AM »
What advice does the mod team have on how to respond to blatant goading by posters who long ago lost the argument?

This board doesn't have an ignore button, does it?

Which argument has been lost? You have not acknowledged the fact that in an investigative phase there is no presumption of "innocent until proven guilty". That only applies to a defendent in court.

That's why the first question suspects get asked by the police is "where were you on the night of......"

Suspects have to "demonstrate their innocence" (to use the archiving report's words) when crimes are being investigated (note not when crimes are borught to a court) to prove their innocence of involvement.

When a trial goes to court it is brought on the basis that the prosecution believe that the person is guilty, and the trial is about the prosecution proving that guilt and it's the defence's job to prove the defendent is not guilty.

However that does not stop a defendent from entering the court "innocent until proven guilty".

You are mixing all these simple concepts across an investigative phase and then a court phase into one (incorrect) assumption that everyone all the time is "innocent until proven guilty" and that is, during a police investigation, false.

Then of course we have degrees of innocence. Indeed in the Barry George compensation trial the judge said:

Quote
The High Court had ruled that Mr George did not qualify for compensation because jurors could still reasonably have convicted him despite new evidence that led to his acquittal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23241520

So clearly there are degrees of innocence, aren't there? He was acquitted but the appeal judges stated the juror's could have found him guilty!

How does that square with your  insistence of "innocent until proven guilty".

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #193 on: July 22, 2013, 09:21:03 AM »
 You have not acknowledged the fact that in an investigative phase there is no presumption of "innocent until proven guilty". That only applies to a defendent in court.


If investigators discontinue an inquiry against someone originally considered a suspect, they have determined that the person is innocent.

It really is that simple

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #194 on: July 22, 2013, 09:30:42 AM »
This is some convoluted, unintelligent and many-times-before tried attempt to fabricate an "argument" that the McCanns cannot, truly, be declared innocent unless there is a trial, which is complete rubbish ...