Author Topic: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!  (Read 56951 times)

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Offline John

I haven't seen this discussed anywhere previously so I believe it is well worth considering.

Madeleine was barely four years of age when she disappeared and not of school age.  She will have had a rudimentary use of the English language at that stage.   If she is alive and well there is every reason to believe that she now speaks with a foreign tongue and that her knowledge of English has all but gone.

Will she now consider her parents to be alien to everything she has known and learned in the last six years?

Will she even want to come home?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 12:52:39 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline faithlilly

Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2013, 01:01:18 PM »
I haven't seen this discussed anywhere previously so I believe it is well worth considering.

Madeleine was barely four years of age when she disappeared and not of school age.  She will have had a rudimentary use of the English language at that stage.   If she is alive and well there is every reason to believe that she now speaks with a foreign tongue and that her knowledge of English has all but gone.

Will she now consider her parents to be alien to everything she has known and learned in the last six years?

Will she even want to come home?


Interesting question John. Further how will the courts approach the problem if Madeleine is ever found and wants to stay with her 'adopted' family ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline insider

Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2013, 01:08:47 PM »
Interesting question John. Further how will the courts approach the problem if Madeleine is ever found and wants to stay with her 'adopted' family ?


I really feel for her because she is in a no win situation.  If she is eventually found safe and well she will effectively be abducted a second time from everything she has grown to know and accept as her lot.  She just cannot win.  Just out of interest are there any recent cases of young children being abducted and found alive six or more years later?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 01:12:59 PM by insider »
Liars come in all shapes and sizes. No profession is without them.

Offline faithlilly

Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2013, 01:09:46 PM »

I really feel for her because she is in a no win situation.  If she is eventually found safe and well she will effectively be abducted a second time from everything she has grown to know and accept as her lot.  She just cannot win.

Indeed insider.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Eleanor

Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2013, 01:28:48 PM »
I haven't seen this discussed anywhere previously so I believe it is well worth considering.

Madeleine was barely four years of age when she disappeared and not of school age.  She will have had a rudimentary use of the English language at that stage.   If she is alive and well there is every reason to believe that she now speaks with a foreign tongue and that her knowledge of English has all but gone.

Will she now consider her parents to be alien to everything she has known and learned in the last six years?

Will she even want to come home?


Are you suggesting that Madeleine should stay with the people who might have unlawfully adopted her?  People who don't know that she was stolen?  No matter how good to her they might have been?

I sometimes think that you are winding us all up, John.  Is this what this Forum does in it's search for the truth?

Offline faithlilly

Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2013, 01:32:33 PM »
Are you suggesting that Madeleine should stay with the people who might have unlawfully adopted her?  People who don't know that she was stolen?  No matter how good to her they might have been?

I sometimes think that you are winding us all up, John.  Is this what this Forum does in it's search for the truth?

No matter the whys and wherefore's surely Madeleine's happiness is paramount ? That's certainly how any court will see it.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Eleanor

Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2013, 01:49:36 PM »
No matter the whys and wherefore's surely Madeleine's happiness is paramount ? That's certainly how any court will see it.

Don't you ever believe it.  Anyone who would adopt a stolen child is no fit parent for anyone.
Or are you suggesting that these supposed people would go to Court and demand their right to keep a stolen child?

They will be so fast banged up that their feet won't touch the ground.  And they will never be able to argue that they didn't know that Madeleine was stolen.  That is part of the reason for keeping Madeleine in high profile.

Tell me that you don't actually believe that a Court would rule in their favour.  Sheesh, I have just about heard it all now.

Offline John

Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2013, 02:08:50 PM »
Don't you ever believe it.  Anyone who would adopt a stolen child is no fit parent for anyone.
Or are you suggesting that these supposed people would go to Court and demand their right to keep a stolen child?

They will be so fast banged up that their feet won't touch the ground.  And they will never be able to argue that they didn't know that Madeleine was stolen.  That is part of the reason for keeping Madeleine in high profile.

Tell me that you don't actually believe that a Court would rule in their favour.  Sheesh, I have just about heard it all now.

It never ceases to amaze me that people still assume that everyone in the world has heard of her when that just isn't the case. 

Wasn't it mentioned just a few days ago that a police Chief in Morocco knew nothing of her when asked to follow up on a potential sighting back in 2007.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2013, 02:11:39 PM »
Are you suggesting that Madeleine should stay with the people who might have unlawfully adopted her?  People who don't know that she was stolen?  No matter how good to her they might have been?

I sometimes think that you are winding us all up, John.  Is this what this Forum does in it's search for the truth?

Read the post.  Did I mention her staying with her keepers?

To remind you, I stated that it would be like being abducted all over again for her if she is eventually found.  I also pointed out that she most probably wouldn't even speak English having been under four years of age when taken.  She would undoubtedly find the whole thing rather alien after six long years.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 02:17:24 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline faithlilly

Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2013, 02:12:47 PM »
Don't you ever believe it.  Anyone who would adopt a stolen child is no fit parent for anyone.
Or are you suggesting that these supposed people would go to Court and demand their right to keep a stolen child?

They will be so fast banged up that their feet won't touch the ground.  And they will never be able to argue that they didn't know that Madeleine was stolen.  That is part of the reason for keeping Madeleine in high profile.

Tell me that you don't actually believe that a Court would rule in their favour.  Sheesh, I have just about heard it all now.

I believe the court will rule in Madeleine's favour and, if she expresses a desire to stay with her 'adopted' family, whether that's the parents, or an extended family, her wishes will certainly be viewed as paramount by the court.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Lace

Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2013, 02:14:10 PM »
It never ceases to amaze me that people still assume that everyone in the world has heard of her when that just isn't the case. 

Wasn't it mentioned just a few days ago that a police Chief in Morocco knew nothing of her when asked to follow up on a potential sighting back in 2007.



Well the statement that everyone in the world has heard of Madeleine seems to work when a poster wants to say that Madeleine would not be walking the streets anywhere where she could be seen.

I still get it now from posters 'do you think that Madeleine would be seen outside anywhere'.

Offline Lace

Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2013, 02:16:17 PM »
I believe the court will rule in Madeleine's favour and, if she expresses a desire to stay with her 'adopted' family, whether that's the parents, or an extended family, her wishes will certainly be viewed as paramount by the court.



Sorry I don't think that would happen.

Whether Madeleine has formed a strong bond with her adoptive parents,  legally they shouldn't have her,  they should face prosecution and be imprisoned. 

It will be traumatic for Madeleine to learn the truth,  but eventually she should be returned to her parents.

Offline John

Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2013, 02:30:15 PM »


Sorry I don't think that would happen.

Whether Madeleine has formed a strong bond with her adoptive parents,  legally they shouldn't have her,  they should face prosecution and be imprisoned. 

It will be traumatic for Madeleine to learn the truth,  but eventually she should be returned to her parents.

It all depends on her age if and when found.  If she is technically still deemed to be a child she will inevitably be returned to the UK.  If deemed an adult it will be her decision where she goes.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

CPN

  • Guest
Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2013, 02:33:35 PM »
I have not joined this site before but have been reading for some time.   As this is a question which interests me very much (and has, actually, been discussed before at length, John, on the Amazon forum in the days where it was a very interesting and constructive site) I have now joined to post what I posted there.   My reasons for being interested, and the basis of my knowledge as to how these matters work are that I was (before retirement) a qualified and practising Child Care Officer who also worked internationally. 

I will post what I have previously said on the Amazon forum as I do to want to write it all out again.   If you object to that, that is fine and I will not post again. It will be a long post, as it is a complex subject – apologies for that!   But should, hopefully, raise points for discussion

The whole question is complex with a number of possible scenarios. It is possibly best to outline those first, because how the McCanns deal with the twins is tied up with what happens if Madeleine returns (or not) and how they deal with that - and what has happened to Madeleine in the meantime.

I see 4 possible scenarios for Madeleine, assuming she is still alive. If you can think of others please add them.

1. Madeleine has happily been with a family throughout the 6 years. This family could be
a) in an English speaking country, in which case the actual language / communication problem is small.
b) in a non-English speaking country (eg remained in Portugal) in which case the language problem is considerable - she will have forgotten most of the English and her first language will be another language, making communication with her family of origin difficult

In either case any reunification will need to be approached carefully, with the welfare of the child of prime consideration not just the assumptions and wishes of the parents. I'm sure Kate and Gerry will just expect Madeleine to be returned to them or that the police will call and say '' We found Madeleine, she is sitting and waiting for you, get down now to see your daughter'' ... However, hopefully any return to her parents would be treated as a foster placement or an adoption, as, especially if Madeleine has been happy with her "adopted" family, it is likely that memories of her original family have faded, and just uprooting her and placing her at home would be distressing and problematic for her. When placing an adoptive / foster child, as you probably know, introductions are done, visits of the parents to the child's present home, visits of the child to the prospective parents home, a book of memories compiled, days out together, weekends together arranged, etc etc to make the eventual transfer of care as easy as possible. The focus needs to be on the needs of the child, not of the parents

From what we have seen of the ` instinctive' parenting abilities of Kate and Gerry they would need advice and support to deal with this!! - whether they would take advice is another question! But any assumptions that Madeleine would simply adapt back are, I suggest, a bit naïve. And Madeleine is likely to need support and counselling, as indeed would the twins. There would be a change in family relationships; the centre of the family - the twins - would no longer be the centre. Someone else is suddenly there, and someone who takes a priority role to them, not only because of the relief that she has returned, but because she is the eldest.

Diverting somewhat! I did a "reunification" when I was working internationally. The father had had a child overseas some years before marrying and having 3 more children. At ISS we traced the daughter via the original country and another country, believe it or not, to a third country! _ and found her. Father was delighted, she was delighted. However there were others to consider - his wife who had to accept this child, who she had known about but who was suddenly now real and would be staying in her house. And his other children who suddenly had an older sister, and the oldest was no longer the oldest - it was especially difficult for her. So family relationships had to change, as they will in this situation if Madeleine returns.

So scenarios 3 and 4
2. That Madeleine has been with a paedophile gang for the last 6 years
a) in an English speaking country, in which case the actual language / communication problem is small.
b) in a non-English speaking country (eg remained in Portugal) in which case the language problem is considerable - as in my first post

Clearly the removal of her asap from such a scenario is vital, perhaps not allowing the gradual build up of contact outlined previously; although another possibility is that she would be taken to a Children's home initially either in the country where she is found, especially if language is a factor, or in the UK and then prepared for a possible return to her parents after assessment and possible treatment, depending on her situation, mental state etc. Coping with this will be horrendously difficult - you hardly need me to spell it out. How well Kate and Gerry would cope (from what we have seen of them on videos) without an enormous amount of support is anybody's guess. The twins also would need very careful handling and counselling - how much to tell them, how to answer their questions, how to deal with the inevitable premature knowledge of sexual matters etc etc. Again, if English is no longer Madeleine's first language she will need someone who can communicate fully with her - or maybe the parents would be willing to learn whatever language is necessary - that would be a good thing.

And a fifth scenario is that Madeleine will not return - as she has died at the hands of someone as yet unknown.  The twins will access the internet at some point, and will see the discussions, the theories as to what happened. I have said before that the McCanns will really be put on the spot when one of the twins asks "Did you really leave us alone in that apartment?..."

Re if Madeleine is found; I certainly do not think she will be (or should be) immediately returned to the care of her parents. But that is for purely practical reasons.  Madeleine has been away for her family longer than she was with them. Any return will need to be carefully done in a controlled manned, just as children are placed for adoption or foster care in a controlled manner.

Why does it matter where she has been living? because under either scenario, if she has been living abroad, she is likely to have forgotten most if not all of her English and her natural first language will be that of wherever she is living.  That will obviously make re-integration more difficult, leaving aside the complexities of uprooting a child who has, hopefully, been living happily for 6 years within a family situation and who may not wish to leave it (happy family, friendships made, integration into school etc etc) I suggested before that Kate and Gerry should be prepared to learn that language PDQ.  Other questions will arise - if she has indeed made happy friendships with the family she has been living with will she be allowed to continue those?  Will she be allowed to take her favourite clothes to wear, her favourite toys?  What will happen to her memories of the last few years - will they be attemptedly wiped out or continued?

To be honest, if it was indeed an abduction for a paedophile ring, be it in the UK or overseas, I think the likelihood of Madeleine being alive is minimal.  But if she is, you do not need me, I hope, to detail the damage which will have been done and the support / counselling that Madeleine will need - she will not be the little girl who disappeared, and to think she will be is very naïve to be honest.  She will need constant counselling and support, and so will her parents.  If, as I have read, they were finding Madeleine difficult at times before the holiday, she will be a lot more complex and difficult a child to cope with after what has happened.  Re Madeleine being returned to her parents - much would depend on their willingness to accept advice / support etc both for themselves and for Madeleine, and on that particular point, their unwillingness (as it comes across to me ) to accept responsibility for THEIR part in the disappearance does not give me much hope that they have learnt much. 

If she has been in a happy family, as I said, removing her would have its own problems, and the longer she is away the more they (the problems) would be (as Madeleine grows older)   Supposing she does not want to leave her new family? _ what would you think then?   The usual phrase for a child's wishes to be taken into account is "according to the child's age and understanding"  Judges used to take notice of the wishes of a child (eg under Hague convention returns) from age about 12  but in recent years some judges have taken notice of the wishes of younger children.  If she is returned, you cannot wipe out the last few years - do you think there should be ongoing contact with the family who have her now? - should she be allowed to keep photos etc, keep any contacts etc?  Again the parents will need advice and support as to how to deal with this, for themselves, for Madeleine and for the twins, especially if there is to be ongoing contact, and the "nasty man" who took her turns into a loving and supportive family who Madeleine wants to keep contact with.

Complex? yes!! Hence the role of a Guardian ad Litem (Madeleine being a Ward of Court) to look at all angles

« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 02:47:00 PM by CPN »

Offline John

Re: Will Madeleine want to come home? Chances are she won't even speak English!
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2013, 02:43:42 PM »
Thank you for that CPN and welcome to the forum, can you please do a short introduction in the new members section...thanks.   Can you also edit the post to reflect that 6 years have now passed otherwise it is an excellent piece and thank you for taking the time to contribute.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 02:47:42 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.