The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.

[pegasus]

...You really work at checking things out 

The idea that almost all undergarments were suspiciously missing is ... as they say in the US ... pants.

[pegasus]

Why not?

Individual photos are published in the files of every item (clothing, pillows, etc) from the box marked "living area" because Eddie alerted to some items from this box.

[Carana]

The idea that almost all undergarments were suspiciously missing is ... as they say in the US ... pants.

I haven't found a list of beachwear/underwear in the inspection report, have you?

[pegasus]

I haven't found a list of beachwear/underwear in the inspection report, have you?

But the published files do not contain an individually itemised list of all the hundreds of clothing items taken from the villa to the gym.

To find little or no underwear/beachwear in the lounge and dining area of a house is normal and to be expected.

[Carana]

But the published files do not contain an individually itemised list of all the hundreds of clothing items taken from the villa to the gym.

To find little or no underwear/beachwear in the lounge and dining area of a house is normal and to be expected.

Which items were packed in which boxes? And which items did he react to in each?

ETA: irrespective of which box, where is the itemised list of beach/underwear?

[pegasus]

Which items were packed in which boxes? And which items did he react to in each?

That information is all in the files. .
For example all the clothing you have seen in the dog villa video in the lounge and dining area, was packed into a cardboard box labelled with the room name "sala da estar".

[Anna]

Which items were packed in which boxes? And which items did he react to in each?

ETA: irrespective of which box, where is the itemised list of beach/underwear?

Still cant see beachwear but this link might help
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm

[Carana]

That information is all in the files. .
For example all the clothing you have seen in the dog villa video in the lounge and dining area, was packed into a cardboard box labelled with the room name "sala da estar".

Thats what I thought without checking back yet again. Were there any alerts to any other box?

[pegasus]

The items on dining table in villa dog video IMO are same as these photos
at http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm
23: two pillow cases, yellow
24: pillow with cover, white
25: pillow with cover, white
26: two bath towels, yellow
anyone agree?

[Carana]

The items on dining table in villa dog video IMO are same as these photos
at http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm
23: two pillow cases, yellow
24: pillow with cover, white
25: pillow with cover, white
26: two bath towels, yellow
anyone agree?

I'll have a look tomorrow if I find the video sequence again.

[Benice]

Thats what I thought without checking back yet again. Were there any alerts to any other box?

I don't think so. It was Grime who commented that the items alerted to all came from the same box.

[gilet]

There may (or may not) be confusion as to the difference between the skills of the dogs (their ability to discern scents) and the reliability of the dog alerts.

This thread is not about the skills of the dogs but about the extraneous matters which may (or may not) affect the reliability of the alerts made by the dogs.

Such reliability does not depend solely on the dogs but on other matters as well.


A major factor in determining how reliable dog alerts are is how well the material/scene which they are asked to examine has been handled or preserved by those responsible.

The expertise of the dog handler is a factor. Personally, I believe that Grime was a very expert handler of dogs but even the most expert in any field can make mistakes.

Other factors might be weather or time elapsed before the dogs are brought into the crime scene.

All of these matters and potentially others are the subject of this thread but each should be looked at separately as different factors pertain to them.

Let's begin with the preservation of materials.

[gilet]

Please watch this video from 58:10 as the PT officers empty one box of clothes with no separation between those clothes at all, meaning that cross-contamination would be almost inevitable. If one item had cadaver scent on it then those rubbing against it in that box would likely as not be contaminated.  That is why in this country no police force would collect evidence in such a slapdash way. They would ensure that each item was separately bagged.

I had long been aware of the potential of cross-contamination in these clothing boxes because of the slapdash handling of the clothes but and this is a big but, I hadn't actually noticed exactly what follows from 1:01:00 to 1:01:25 with that in mind.  The three clothing alerts are almost adjacent to each other. And having seen how the PJ officers took the clothing earlier in the film from another box the fact that these three items are so close suggest very strongly that they could in fact have been pressed against each other in the cardboard box. No lawyer would fail to challenge the notion that these could be recorded as three separate alerts when such a strong possibility of cross contamination exists. It is almost impossible to believe in such a situation that cross-contamination would not occur.

Would it be accurate to describe this as three separate alerts? Personally, having seen that video, I think not.

But why does this matter? Surely the alert is to cadaver scent?

Well yes, but it means that only one of those articles may have been directly in contact with a cadaver in the past which markedly reduces the necessary contact with any cadaver.

Going beyond the clothing alerts to Cuddle Cat.

Could there be any possibility of cross-contamination between the clothing and the toy during the months between the disappearance and the introduction of the dogs? Well yes, there could.

There are lots of pictures showing the cat against various articles of clothing including the trousers which were alerted to in the gym.



Any lawyer in court would be utterly remiss if they failed to indicate this potential for cross-contamination and the way in which such cross-contamination would reflect on the potential number of actual contacts with cadaver scent.

Just from this short post it is clear that there are legitimate questions as to whether we can reliably determine the number of necessary contacts with any cadaver from the dog alerts.

Much more to come but I have to be elsewhere now till late this evening.

[stephen25000]

Speculation, speculation and yet more speculation.

Why are you so concerned gilet with this video and 'cross contamination', when we now full well the forensics were inconclusive ?

Who are you trying to convince exactly ?

As you well know, most people on here have made up their minds already, and this is unlikely to change their opinions.

[jassi]

Speculation, speculation and yet more speculation.

Why are you so concerned gilet with this video and 'cross contamination', when we now full well the forensics were inconclusive ?

Who are you trying to convince exactly ?

As you well know, most people on here have made up their minds already, and this is unlikely to change their opinions.

I often wonder this - what do they think their efforts achieve ?