Leonor Cipriano, her confession and subsequent silence in the killing of her daughter Joana.

[Redblossom]

Interesting question. Are there any Portuguese forums related to potential miscarriages of justice?

Campaigns carana by family and friends fightng for them NOT internet chat forums!

where are they? ie their family and friends fightng and sayng they are innocent?


Ive read  reports to the contrary, family disowning them!!!

[Carana]

Campaigns carana by family and friends fightng for them NOT internet chat forums!

where are they? ie their family and friends fightng and sayng they are innocent?


Ive read  reports to the contrary, family disowning them!!!

Yes, the family of her first relationship doesn't seem to keen on her, but that was way in the past.

Other than that, my question still stands: are there any Portuguese forums pointing out potential miscarriages or not? There may be, but I haven't come across any.

As to the family... they seem to be extremely poor and probably have little schooling. Without support from the media, what could they actually do?

The threat of criminal libel may not be too encouraging, either. I wonder why this threat is still on the books in the land of free speech? Odd that.

[Carana]

Campaigns carana by family and friends fightng for them NOT internet chat forums!

where are they? ie their family and friends fightng and sayng they are innocent?


Ive read  reports to the contrary, family disowning them!!!

Leandro tried, before anyone in Portugal had ever heard of Madeleine.
Interview: 12:09:06

http://www.algarvepress.net/conteudo.php?menu=-1&cat=Regional&scat=Reportagem&id=136

In Googlegibberish.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=www.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.algarvepress.net/conteudo.php%3Fmenu%3D-1%26cat%3DRegional%26scat%3DReportagem%26id%3D136&usg=ALkJrhjPwULV72bWvCXzC_Tld3E7zl2H1w

[Redblossom]

Yes, the family of her first relationship doesn't seem to keen on her, but that was way in the past.

Other than that, my question still stands: are there any Portuguese forums pointing out potential miscarriages or not? There may be, but I haven't come across any.

As to the family... they seem to be extremely poor and probably have little schooling. Without support from the media, what could they actually do?

The threat of criminal libel may not be too encouraging, either. I wonder why this threat is still on the books in the land of free speech? Odd that.

internet chat forums are not the same as family friends and others campaigns trying  to free innocents or get justice for the perpetrators!!!

WAs Doreen Lawrence rich? Do pls dont play the poor card
As for libel yourehaving bloody laugh!

So, who has campaigned forthe ciprianos if this was such a miscarriage of justice!!

No one!

apart fom  the lawyer out to get amaral lol years and years later


PooR ciprianos

So innocent no one is supporting  them!!!!! Start a fund carana!

Im sure millions will flood in...but pls tell them NOT to spend it on lawyes  or pr gurus and other snake merchants like that
and certainly NOT pay 37000 pounds or a hundred pound max website, cheers, pass the message on

[Carana]

internet chat forums are not the same as family friends and others campaigns trying  to free innocents or get justice for the perpetrators!!!

WAs Doreen Lawrence rich? Do pls dont play the poor card
As for libel yourehaving bloody laugh!

So, who has campaigned forthe ciprianos if this was such a miscarriage of justice!!

No one!

apart fom  the lawyer out to get amaral lol years and years later


PooR ciprianos

So innocent no one is supporting  them!!!!! Start a fund carana!

Im sure millions will flood in...but pls tell them NOT to spend it on lawyes  or pr gurus and other snake merchants like that
and certainly NOT pay 37000 pounds or a hundred pound max website, cheers, pass the message on

I don't think that there is any recourse left in Portugal once it went to the Supreme Court.

NB: I thought you had me on ignore?

[John]

I have great difficulty believing that there has been a miscarriage of justice in this case for several reasons.  I also don't understand why people blindly pursue the belief that Leonor and brother João are whiter than white.

Much has been said about the absence of proof of guilt in this case and I agree to a certain extent.  It comes down to circumstantial evidence but more importantly, the actions of the pair themselves.

From the beginning they were evasive and delayed contacting the police.  It was left to the lady owner of the cafe to contact the GNR which in itself was a warning sign that all was not as it should have been.  Regardless of where Joana was on that Sunday night, her mother, uncle and stepfather weren't at all concerned as to report it.

Both Leanor and João confessed as to their involvement in the girls accidental death and subsequent disposal of her remains.  Leonor talks about beating her and hitting her head on the house wall which was fatal.  She also speaks of asking João to hide the body.  João for his part led the police to a dozen different locations where he claimed the body lay and told Leandro (Leonor's partner) that he had buried her out back.  None of this came to anything.

I find it very difficult to believe that an innocent mother and uncle could behave in such a manner.  It just does not make sense unless they were indeed involved in her disappearance or murder.

What we know for sure is that Joana was sent to Celia's Cafe for a carton of milk and two cans of tuna.  She went to the cafe and collected her purchases and was seen at the church in the middle of the village on her return journey.

[Carana]

I have great difficulty believing that there has been a miscarriage of justice in this case for several reasons.  I also don't understand why people blindly pursue the belief that Leonor and brother João are whiter than white.

Much has been said about the absence of proof of guilt in this case and I agree to a certain extent.  It comes down to circumstantial evidence but more importantly, the actions of the pair themselves.

From the beginning they were evasive and delayed contacting the police.  It was left to the lady owner of the cafe to contact the GNR which in itself was a warning sign that all was not as it should have been.  Regardless of where Joana was on that Sunday night, her mother, uncle and stepfather weren't at all concerned as to report it.

In the Madeira case, the family apparently didn't contact the police for three hours after the disappearance was noticed, as they'd been looking for him themselves. It was when their searches were fruitless that the police were contacted.


This is a country in which abductions are seemingly rare, so there was no particular reason to immediately assume that something disastrous may have happened to her.

People were searching for Joana once it had dawned that she was unusually late getting back home. There was a fiesta in the village: she might have joined in with relatives or friends (some of whom may have been at the party she'd attended earlier in the day) and been found.

[Redblossom]

I don't think that there is any recourse left in Portugal once it went to the Supreme Court.

NB: I thought you had me on ignore?

I let you off

Supreme court is no excuse for previous current or future campaigns

Where are they? No where

No one thnnks theyare innocent

[Carana]

I have great difficulty believing that there has been a miscarriage of justice in this case for several reasons.  I also don't understand why people blindly pursue the belief that Leonor and brother João are whiter than white.

Much has been said about the absence of proof of guilt in this case and I agree to a certain extent.  It comes down to circumstantial evidence but more importantly, the actions of the pair themselves.

From the beginning they were evasive and delayed contacting the police.  It was left to the lady owner of the cafe to contact the GNR which in itself was a warning sign that all was not as it should have been.  Regardless of where Joana was on that Sunday night, her mother, uncle and stepfather weren't at all concerned as to report it.

Both Leanor and João confessed as to their involvement in the girls accidental death and subsequent disposal of her remains.  Leonor talks about beating her and hitting her head on the house wall which was fatal.  She also speaks of asking João to hide the body.  João for his part led the police to a dozen different locations where he claimed the body lay and told Leandro (Leonor's partner) that he had buried her out back.  None of this came to anything.

I find it very difficult to believe that an innocent mother and uncle could behave in such a manner.  It just does not make sense unless they were indeed involved in her disappearance or murder.

I asked a question the other day... what makes you think that these convictions are safe?

What measures were in place to avoid any disputes concerning their time in police custody?

What else is there of any significance in a village context?

[Carana]

I let you off

Supreme court is no excuse for previous current or future campaigns

Where are they? No where

No one thnnks theyare innocent

I haven't found any miscarriage of justice campaigns in Portugal concerning murder convictions.

Why not?

One possibility is that I simply haven't found them. Although one or two press articles in the quality press have asked questions, but not to the extent of a campaign.

Or...

Perhaps because Portugal has never, ever, screwed up, unlike any other country on the planet?

[John]

I asked a question the other day... what makes you think that these convictions are safe?

What measures were in place to avoid any disputes concerning their time in police custody?

What else is there of any significance in a village context?

Very simply...

If you are an innocent mother whose child has been abducted you don't tell a magistrate that you killed her.

If you are an innocent uncle  you don't tell your sisters partner that you disposed of her body out back and you don't take police round twelve or more locations claiming to know where her body lies.

You could of course argue that both are insane and incapable of normal thought processes but if that were the case they would not have stood trial for Joana's murder and would be in an asylum.

Then there is the evidence, her shoes and flip flops were all accounted for, tools suddenly went missing, the blood spatter on the wall and the floor, the human blood on the sandals under the settee and in the freezer, the purchase of special cleaning materials etc...

We then have the story of the body in the car sent to Spain, yet another pack of lies told by João?

The route between the church and Joana's house is lined with houses.  I find it very hard to believe that she could be abducted in broad daylight in the middle of a village.







 

[Redblossom]

I haven't found any miscarriage of justice campaigns in Portugal concerning murder convictions.

Why not?

One possibility is that I simply haven't found them. Although one or two press articles in the quality press have asked questions, but not to the extent of a campaign.

Or...

Perhaps because Portugal has never, ever, screwed up, unlike any other country on the planet?

Why are you evading the question? Where are her family and friends campaigns? Ever!Nowhere

[Carana]

Why are you evading the question? Where are her family and friends campaigns? Ever!Nowhere

There were numerous arguidos in this case (I'll try to find how many if I can). They had to protect themselves and their own families at the time.

No one in the family / friends arena has any clear idea what actually did happen... but none of them seem to give credence to the prosecution's gruesome hypothesis.

From the interview with Leandro (two years after the event), he thinks supermarket lady may have taken her, but that he wouldn't have put it past João to have sold her. Leonor seems to be of a similar opinion, but is still wondering. João apparently wrote to his family to say that he thinks that Leonor sold her and that Leandro's family got the money for it.

They seem to be from very poor backgrounds, with little education, and may well feel tainted by the tabloid frenzy pointing the finger at anyone related to the Cipriano family and just want to get on with trying to earn a meagre living in a world in which they may feel that there is little they can do.

[Carana]

Very simply...

If you are an innocent mother whose child has been abducted you don't tell a magistrate that you killed her.

If you are an innocent uncle  you don't tell your sisters partner that you disposed of her body out back and you don't take police round twelve or more locations claiming to know where her body lies.

You could of course argue that both are insane and incapable of normal thought processes but if that were the case they would not have stood trial for Joana's murder and would be in an asylum.

Then there is the evidence, her shoes and flip flops were all accounted for, tools suddenly went missing, the blood spatter on the wall and the floor, the human blood on the sandals under the settee and in the freezer, the purchase of special cleaning materials etc...

We then have the story of the body in the car sent to Spain, yet another pack of lies told by João?

The route between the church and Joana's house is lined with houses.  I find it very hard to believe that she could be abducted in broad daylight in the middle of a village.

John, I get the impression that your reasoning is based on what you'd expect in a modern system, with adequate resources, well-trained officers with clear protocols, with a cautious police press service and a minimum of corruption. And a judicial system based on corroboration.

ETA: With adequate resources for independent tests or querying of "experts".

[Redblossom]

There were numerous arguidos in this case (I'll try to find how many if I can). They had to protect themselves and their own families at the time.

No one in the family / friends arena has any clear idea what actually did happen... but none of them seem to give credence to the prosecution's gruesome hypothesis.

From the interview with Leandro (two years after the event), he thinks supermarket lady may have taken her, but that he wouldn't have put it past João to have sold her. Leonor seems to be of a similar opinion, but is still wondering. João apparently wrote to his family to say that he thinks that Leonor sold her and that Leandro's family got the money for it.

They seem to be from very poor backgrounds, with little education, and may well feel tainted by the tabloid frenzy pointing the finger at anyone related to the Cipriano family and just want to get on with trying to earn a meagre living in a world in which they may feel that there is little they can do.

Oh I see, none of  their famiy or friends believe them, or know what to believe, so didnt bother supporting them in any way, even if hey were "poor" and had to go out each day to earn a "meagre living"cheers