DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.

[Silkywhiskers]

No

May not is the conditional tense.   Conditional does not make it fact.   As for Sir BHH he should have been more careful in his choice of words.  I wasn't aware that it had been turned into a murder enquiry. As it is may not does NOT confirm Eddie's work

A scent of cadaver odour is not the be-all and end-all.   It has to be established beyond all reasonable doubt how it got there. No body, inconclusive forensics, no case.

What three separate police investigations?.  Do please specify

Oops sorry I meant FOUR.

The GNR on the night
The Leics Police
The PJ
Now SY

[icabodcrane]

That's what sticks in my craw though  ...  and I  really do  keep an open mind

Here we are being asked to accept that Madeleine's dead body,  might,   indeed,  have been in that  apartment  ...  but we  are  STILL being asked to believe the  cadaver dog was not alerting to it  !

Why  ? 

Why,  if the possibility of Madeleine having died in apartment 5A  has been accepted by all  (  including   Scotland Yard  )  is it denied that the cadaver dog detected the scent of that dead body ?


For the simple reason it has to be established beyond all reasonable doubt that the scent did come from Madeleine's corpse and we don't even know for certain that she is dead  It is a possibility but it is not yet  established and beyond all reasonable doubt fact..

Yes yes

...  but if  we accept that Scotland Yard think Madeleine may have died in that apartment,  is it it really such a leap of faith to accept that the cadaver dog who alerted there had detected the scent of her  dead body  ?

I mean,  isn't it just common  sense   to make  that obvious connection  ? 

[icabodcrane]

In matters such as this it is not wise to jump to conclusions. The stumbling block is proof and the FFS tests were inconclusive.  At the moment it remains a possibility not a fact.

I mentioned earlier that the prosecution's job is fraught with difficulties and the legal maxim is that the burden of proof falls on the prosecution who have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the  scentpicked up by Eddie did in fact emanate from Madeleine's corpse.  Do tell me how they are going to do that while death remains only a possibility. What are you suggesting?   That we put a couple in the dock because of a possibility that cannot be proved at this particular time?  If the police come up with the evidence fair enough but they're not there yet.

All we've have so far is conjecture and speculation.  What we don't have is the evidence to convict and that is what the prosecution needs evidence to convict.  As it is not everybody charged ends up in Court and there have been occasions when CPS got it badly wrong such as the cot death trials.  Last but not least every prosecutor's worst nightmare - the defence lawyer(s) who pull(s) the case apart.

You seem to think that the only possibility for the presence of cadaver odour is that there was a corpse in a situ at some point.  I'm sorry but that is not the only possible explanation and as as far as I'm aware  other possibilities have not been eliminated yet.

Scotland Yard have said that Madeleine may have died in  apartment 5A

A dog trained to bark when he detected the   ''scent of death'  barked in that same apartment

Am I missing something here  ? 

Isn't it common sense to connect  those two facts  ? 

[Eleanor]

Scotland Yard have said that Madeleine may have died in  apartment 5A

A dog trained to bark when he detected the   ''scent of death'  barked in that same apartment

Am I missing something here  ? 

Isn't it common sense to connect  those two facts  ?

You are connecting two things to which no connection has as yet been made.

[Mr Gray]

Scotland Yard have said that Madeleine may have died in  apartment 5A

A dog trained to bark when he detected the   ''scent of death'  barked in that same apartment

Am I missing something here  ? 

Isn't it common sense to connect  those two facts  ?

I would be happy to connect them..Eddie MAY have been alerting to maddie...but its a very big MAY....its not evidence and its not proof

[Cariad]

I posed it as a question as I really don't know, Cariad. I would have thought that technically speaking, abduction is the removal of a living person. Often for ransom, though not necessarily. When you say I'm splitting hairs, that's probably correct!

In the middle of writing this I have looked the word up in several dictionaries (and also the word 'kidnapping', which appears to mean essentially the same thing), and the main meaning is that a person is taken against their will.

I had a feeling that that was part of the meaning, and that's what was niggling me:  a person who is dead is not  being taken against their will.

Whether this technicality is of any interest to police as far as their investigations and communications go - our original context for this question - I don't know. What do you think DCI Redwood meant?

That's the crux of it isn't it? We're being left to interpret Whether DCI Redwood was using technical language, which I assume he is much more comfortable with than you and I, or debunking the abduction myth.

Yes, I imagine that Andy would probably use the term 'abduction' in its most literal sense, in the same way that I 'turn' a pizza in the oven to cook it evenly, yet my husband 'rotates' it.

However, after having 'abduction' shoved down our throats as the only possible explanation of what happened to Madeleine for nigh on 7 years, hearing SY say that that may not go along with all their thinking about the case seems like a very big deal! Well, to me at least. No one else seems very impressed...

The Mccanns have told us that Madeleine can not have woke and wandered could she couldn't have opened the shutters and curtains and managed all the obstacles to get out of the flat, although they did also say that they'd left the doors open for that very reason, so I guess we're left with a choice of which to believe.

WS posted a video yesterday showing Dr and Mrs Mccann saying that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLvnfcl-Zkg&feature=youtube_gdata_player @22.50

And then Kate saying this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rQazjM-bCo

So how does someone have time to commit a murder, clean up (any evidence) then remove a body?

Why would someone remove a body? There was no sign of a struggle on the bed. There were no forensics. They wasn't anything to indicate that an intruder had entered the apartment. All in Kate's "very small window of opportunity"?

[Eleanor]

The problem seems to be that Andy Redwood wasn't reading from a script.  Although that would have been thought odd by some.
But he certainly wasn't expecting his every word to be dissected for hidden meanings, and nor would he have said anything to implicate The McCanns, let alone sending hidden messages to McCann Sceptics.
He might not be as articulate as some, but he certainly isn't stupid.

[Cariad]

The problem seems to be that Andy Redwood wasn't reading from a script.  Although that would have been thought odd by some.
But he certainly wasn't expecting his every word to be dissected for hidden meanings, and nor would he have said anything to implicate The McCanns, let alone sending hidden messages to McCann Sceptics.
He might not be as articulate as some, but he certainly isn't stupid.

I'm not looking for hidden meaning and I'm certainly not looking for hidden messages, I'm not Sadie!

So which is it? Inarticulate and therefore less likely to use the absolute technical term for 'abduction', or articulate and precise?

[Benice]

The problem seems to be that Andy Redwood wasn't reading from a script.  Although that would have been thought odd by some.
But he certainly wasn't expecting his every word to be dissected for hidden meanings, and nor would he have said anything to implicate The McCanns, let alone sending hidden messages to McCann Sceptics.
He might not be as articulate as some, but he certainly isn't stupid.

IMO as AR was talking about a man who assaulted 12 white British children in their beds - two of them in PdL  he didn't think it was necessary to spell it out that IF Madeleine had died in the apartment then it may well have been at the hands of that intruder.

We have only been given some details about these attacks.  No doubt SY have interviewed the families at length and know far more about them than we do.

Pure speculation on my part - but it could be that if it was common practice by this person to hold his hand over the childrens mouths to keep them quiet - then that could have resulted in Madeleine's death. 

Having already publically made it crystal clear that the McCanns have been ruled out - it probably didn't occur to Andy Redwood that his every word would still be pored over and put under a microscope by some folk in the hopes of finding a 'clue' to convince themselves that he is actually hinting that it was the McCanns wot dunnit and who would ignore the glaring connection he was making between this particular criminal and Madeleine.

Both the PJ and SY have confirmed that the McCanns are not suspects.  The McCanns have met with the PJ team and SY are keeping them updated.     Anyone who thinks this is all part of a big charade and the McCanns are secretly their 'prime suspects' have taken 'wishful thinking' right off the Richter scale IMO.

[Cariad]

Someone who wants chapter and verse arse backwards on a postage stamp.

It may have slipped your notice, but a child's life could be at stake here, Eleanor! Surely you're not being flippant? At this precise moment a little girl could be being held by an elite, mind controlling, paedophile party goer! Don't you think that the least we can expect from SY's finest is a little clarity!

Time is of the essence!

[Mr Gray]

It may have slipped your notice, but a child's life could be at stake here, Eleanor! Surely you're not being flippant? At this precise moment a little girl could be being held by an elite, mind controlling, paedophile party goer! Don't you think that the least we can expect from SY's finest is a little clarity!

Time is of the essence!

I know you are being sarcastic but perhaps we could expect the pj to allow SY to complete its investigation and we might all have some answers

[jassi]

Some of us might not live that long 

[Cariad]

I know you are being sarcastic but perhaps we could expect the pj to allow SY to complete its investigation and we might all have some answers

I think some professional courtesy and respect could go a long way with both parties. Cooperation would seem like the best way of getting this case solved.

[Eleanor]

It may have slipped your notice, but a child's life could be at stake here, Eleanor! Surely you're not being flippant? At this precise moment a little girl could be being held by an elite, mind controlling, paedophile party goer! Don't you think that the least we can expect from SY's finest is a little clarity!

Time is of the essence!

Not for your benefit I don't.  I am pretty certain that Andy Redwood is only interested in any other attacks, and they will know who they are, and you won't be one of those.

[Wonderfulspam]

It may have slipped your notice, but a child's life could be at stake here, Eleanor! Surely you're not being flippant? At this precise moment a little girl could be being held by an elite, mind controlling, paedophile party goer! Don't you think that the least we can expect from SY's finest is a little clarity!

Time is of the essence!