Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[Carew]

Haven't you got it?

No dog attending a crime scene should pick stuff up in its mouth

No.....course not guv`nor.

(Gimme strength.)

[Cariad]

Why does he have to state opinion?

He can strict strictly to fact.

The dog alerted but nothing evidential can be inferred from those alerts unless they corroborated by forensic results.

Harrison never said anything about cadaver odour

Neither should have Grime

Well the Fact is that his dog had never falsely alerted. So he could've stated "I'm convinced that there was a cadaver present due to my knowledge and training".

However, without forensic evidence, he has no proof and would've been torn to shreds should he ever been called to testify.

hence the need to couch it in terms like 'indicate' and 'suggest'.

It's called legalese. A couple of decades ago the same language was used to describe DNA evidence. 

[Mr Gray]

Well the Fact is that his dog had never falsely alerted. So he could've stated "I'm convinced that there was a cadaver present due to my knowledge and training".

However, without forensic evidence, he has no proof and would've been torn to shreds should he ever been called to testify.

hence the need to couch it in terms like 'indicate' and 'suggest'.

It's called legalese. A couple of decades ago the same language was used to describe DNA evidence.

Is this FACT really a myth...could you tell me on what evidence you base this FACT

[Estuarine]

You need to read Cristovao's Book, "Star of Madeleine."  He was the one who came up with the Six Dead Bodies.  The McCanns never said it.
Another one making money from a missing child.

Cristovao is now in serious trouble with Portuguese Law, for Blackmail, among other things.

Kinell is anyone involved in this case straight do you think? Or is it all a subversive plot by the Spanish to get a bigger slice of the tourist industry.

[Benice]

Quote from Serendipity.
Keela was never trained to alert to cadaver scent, so how could she be deemed to have failed to alert to it?  She was trained to alert to blood only.  Eddie on the other hand was trained to alert to both blood and cadaver scent only. Neither dogs were trained to alert to anything else so when they alerted it  will only ever be to what they were trained to alert to and nothing else. Both dogs were deconditioned to alert to any other bodily fluids such as semen, urine etc unless they were mixed with blood.
Unquote
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How were the dogs 'deconditioned' and why would they need to be?

If Keela was trained only to alert to blood - why would she need to be 'deconditioned' to alerting to any other  odours?     

If she wasn't trained to alert to any other odour except blood in the first place -  then surely she wouldn't alert to semen, urine etc. anyway -  only to any blood it may contain?     

The claim of the dogs being  'deconditioned' makes no sense to me.   

[pegasus]

A question for Serendipity re http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html

POST-MORTEM INTERVAL RANGE: From 70 minutes to 3 days
NUMBER OF TRIALS COMPLETED: As of July 1997, total of 52 trials completed

Is it possible to obtain online a fuller report of this study, which gives more detail, for example which lists the all 52 post-mortem intervals?

[Carana]

Quote from Serendipity.
Keela was never trained to alert to cadaver scent, so how could she be deemed to have failed to alert to it?  She was trained to alert to blood only.  Eddie on the other hand was trained to alert to both blood and cadaver scent only. Neither dogs were trained to alert to anything else so when they alerted it  will only ever be to what they were trained to alert to and nothing else. Both dogs were deconditioned to alert to any other bodily fluids such as semen, urine etc unless they were mixed with blood.
Unquote
------------------------------------
How were the dogs 'deconditioned' and why would they need to be?

If Keela was trained only to alert to blood - why would she need to be 'deconditioned' to alerting to any other  odours?     

If she wasn't trained to alert to any other odour except blood in the first place -  then surely she wouldn't alert to semen, urine etc. anyway -  only to any blood it may contain?     

The claim of the dogs being  'deconditioned' makes no sense to me.

And on Eddie:
'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

[pegasus]

Another question for an expert about the study http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
Re the subject with post-mortem interval 85 minutes.
The gauze pad was placed in contact with the subject for exactly 20 minutes.
Does that mean 20 minutes ending at post-mortem interval 85 minutes?
Or does it mean 20 minutes beginning at post-mortem interval 85 minutes?
(If the second answer is correct, then the post-mortem interval at which detection becomes possible may possibly be 105 minutes rather than 85 minutes if you see what I mean?)

[John]

It is clear that there are other logical lines of inquiry which could have led to that statement. It is pure desperation on your part and that of others who have denied such possibilities to have done so.

I was somewhat intrigued at the possibilities you suggested earlier today gilet in the context of SY's latest revelation that Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive and list them as follows:-

* witness interviews being undertaken

* discussion with the PJ which is being undertaken currently

* reviewing of modus operandi of suspects which we know is being currently undertaken


Personally I cannot see how you can reconcile what SY have revealed with any of the above suggestions.  The dog alerts would appear to be the logical choice since they directly relate to the claim by an expert that they are suggestive of cadaver odour being detected.



 

[sadie]

I was somewhat intrigued at the possibilities you suggested earlier today gilet in the context of SY's latest revelation that Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive and list them as follows:-

* witness interviews being undertaken

* discussion with the PJ which is being undertaken currently

* reviewing of modus operandi of suspects which we know is being currently undertaken


Personally I cannot see how you can reconcile what SY have revealed with any of the above suggestions.  The dog alerts would appear to be the logical choice since they directly relate to the claim by an expert that they are suggestive of cadaver odour being detected.

I disagree with you John.  Gilet has presented some very sensible conclusions as to why SY may have diifferent ideas now.

SY are not perfect, but they are very good. 
No way would they have taken 4 years to have read and absorbed forensically unsubstantiated dog alerts to mean something different from their original thinking.  They made up their minds, based on evidence, earlier on about that.

That just doesn't make sense John.

[Benice]

I was somewhat intrigued at the possibilities you suggested earlier today gilet in the context of SY's latest revelation that Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive and list them as follows:-

* witness interviews being undertaken

* discussion with the PJ which is being undertaken currently

* reviewing of modus operandi of suspects which we know is being currently undertaken

IMO SYs comment that Madeleine may have died in the apartment is linked directly to the person they made the appeal about in CW who had entered 12 apartments and assaulted several little British girls.    After the last appeal more families came forward - who no doubt have since been interviewed.     It could well be that something in that person's modus operandi which is common to all those incidents where a child was assaulted  has led them to believe that it is possible that Madeleine may have been killed - even accidentally perhaps.

Pure speculation on my part but  - for instance - knowing that the parents were in the apartment, he would not want his victims to cry out.   Could it be that he put his hand over their mouths?   That action itself could result in death by suffocation.    In Madeleine's case the parents were not there - but the twins were. 

[gilet]

I was somewhat intrigued at the possibilities you suggested earlier today gilet in the context of SY's latest revelation that Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive and list them as follows:-

* witness interviews being undertaken

* discussion with the PJ which is being undertaken currently

* reviewing of modus operandi of suspects which we know is being currently undertaken


Personally I cannot see how you can reconcile what SY have revealed with any of the above suggestions.  The dog alerts would appear to be the logical choice since they directly relate to the claim by an expert that they are suggestive of cadaver odour being detected.

The major flaw in what you have written above is your belief that I am trying to reconcile anything at all. I am not.

I maintain simply that neither you nor I know what prompted the recent comment (which some, not me) think presages a new direction of thought from SY.

The dog alert is as I have stated a possible reason but there does not appear to be any logical reason why it should only now have registered with SY in such a way to make them issue such a statement. Nobody has offered the slightest explanation as to why now.

Yes the dog alert does relate to possible cadaver presence in the apartment but as neither you nor I know what has been discovered in the other lines of inquiry which I have listed and which we know are ongoing, we are in no position to determine whether what has been discovered is relevant or not.

You have chosen to guess that one reason is correct based on it having relevance (though without explaining the delay). I have chosen to remain open-minded till I have further information.

I hope you accept my remaining open-minded as I accept your speculation.

[gilet]

IMO SYs comment that Madeleine may have died in the apartment is linked directly to the person they made the appeal about in CW who had entered 12 apartments and assaulted several little British girls.    After the last appeal more families came forward - who no doubt have since been interviewed.     It could well be that something in that person's modus operandi which is common to all those incidents where a child was assaulted  has led them to believe that it is possible that Madeleine may have been killed - even accidentally perhaps.

Pure speculation on my part but  - for instance - knowing that the parents were in the apartment, he would not want his victims to cry out.   Could it be that he put his hand over their mouths?   That action itself could result in death by suffocation.    In Madeleine's case the parents were not there - but the twins were.

That is a perfectly plausible reason for the comment from SY but some here are not willing to consider any other possibility than the dogs. It is not a very profitable way to investigate or even to read about a case when you are intent on pursuing a single issue to the exclusion of all other possibilities without giving them full consideration.

[icabodcrane]

I was somewhat intrigued at the possibilities you suggested earlier today gilet in the context of SY's latest revelation that Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive and list them as follows:-

* witness interviews being undertaken

* discussion with the PJ which is being undertaken currently

* reviewing of modus operandi of suspects which we know is being currently undertaken


Personally I cannot see how you can reconcile what SY have revealed with any of the above suggestions.  The dog alerts would appear to be the logical choice since they directly relate to the claim by an expert that they are suggestive of cadaver odour being detected.

I agree

Let's  address those  'explanations'  given by Gilet   :

1 )  Scotland Yard think Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A because  witness interviews are being undertaken

2 )   Scotland Yard think Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A  because of discussion with the PJ which is currently being undertaken 

3 )  Scotland Yard think Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A because they are reviewing the modus operandi of suspects


What a load of gobbledigook  ! 


In the meanwhile,  the explanation being   fiercely rejected,  is the in-your-face  obvious one  :


Scotland think Madeleine may have died in apartment 5A because a cadaver dog alerted there

[John]

Suggestive or otherwise, SY now stating that Madeleine might be dead is significant.  For them to state she might have died in apartment 5a is revealing to say the least.  This is quite a change in position for SY.

The only evidence which points to this being the case is that provided by the dogs.  There is no evidence that any of the known suspects had killed previously so effectively rules out modus operandi.  Had a stranger committed the crime he would hardly have stayed around for 85 minutes while cadaver odour formed.  If the dogs were correct that only leaves one possibility.