Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[John]

Maybe each handler only has one dog. Will dogs work with other than their own handler?

The dogs can work with any handler but it is not ideal.  The normal situation is where a handler takes a dog from a young age and is responsible for its training and deployment.  The dog then gets used to its handler and vice versa.  Its not as if we are talking about training a guide dog for instance or even a drugs search dog as they will work for anyone.

The Victim Recovery Dog team is a specialist skill set.  There is far more to it than the dog simply barking or sitting in a particular way.  Over time an experienced handler will be able to read the dog by its reactions which can relate just about as much information as an actual alert.  For example, Eddie became very exited when he approached apartment 5a for the first time which alerted his handler to the fact that this was a prime site.  I bet Martin Grime knew even before he entered that apartment that Eddie was going to find something positive within.

[Benice]

The dogs can work with any handler but it is not ideal.  The normal situation is where a handler takes a dog from a young age and is responsible for its training and deployment.  The dog then gets used to its handler and vice versa.  Its not as if we are talking about training a guide dog for instance or even a drugs search dog as they will work for anyone.

The Victim Recovery Dog team is a specialist skill set.  There is far more to it than the dog simply barking or sitting in a particular way.  Over time an experienced handler will be able to read the dog by its reactions which can relate just about as much information as an actual alert.  For example, Eddie became very exited when he approached apartment 5a for the first time which alerted his handler to the fact that this was a prime site. I bet Martin Grime knew even before he entered that apartment that Eddie was going to find something positive within.

But doesn't that heighten the chances of unconscious cueing?  From reading about this subject it would seem that handlers who 'expect' to to have alerts can convey that 'expectation' to their dogs by the minutest of body language changes, which of course if the dog and handler know oneanother extremely well, increases the chance of that happening.

Just to make it clear -  unconscious cueing is not a crime or a deliberate act.     It is hazard which dog handlers (being human) are susceptible to -  and can happen without them being aware of it -  as tests have shown.

[Brietta]

So you are suggesting that Grime's unconcious self just got lucky time after time after time? Thus rendering the dog's skills inadequate?

The alternative is that you are suggesting Grime's action was deliberate.

I most certainly do not suggest that Mr Grime deliberately falsified the result of his dogs' work. 
This is clearly preposterous when one considers his record and that of his dogs and if one has read his report.

You obviously have never heard of clever Hans ... this link is worth following
http://www.damninteresting.com/clever-hans-the-math-horse/

[John]

But doesn't that heighten the chances of unconscious cueing?  From reading about this subject it would seem that handlers who 'expect' to to have alerts can convey that 'expectation' to their dogs by the minutest of body language changes, which of course if the dog and handler know oneanother extremely well, increases the chance of that happening.

Just to make it clear -  unconscious cueing is not a crime or a deliberate act.     It is hazard which dog handlers (being human) are susceptible to -  and can happen without them being aware of it -  as tests have shown.

I understand what you are saying Benice and that is why the dogs are trained and trained constantly.  Handlers know that dogs love to please and it is for the very reasons you raise that this continuous training is important.  No doubt, the dogs are set tasks which will reveal if the dogs are being overzealous or to use a human attribute, cheating.  Some of the finds by these dogs are quite remarkable, they can even find a body which is underwater.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2335020/Sniffer-dog-trained-search-UNDER-WATER-bodies-100ft-away.html



Star pupil: Sasha, 3, has spent the last 12 months learning to become a Drowned Victim Search Dog.

[Brietta]

Read my post Brietta. I gave you 2 options. You state that it isn't the latter option so is it the first option?

I read it, Buzz, and I think you should take on board that I do not welcome having words put into my mouth.

That is the stuff of myths.

[Mr Gray]

My take on it is that it does not matter how many times grime brings the dog back to  a certain spot...doesnt matter if he cues or encourages the dog...hes there to find evidence and if none is found the alerts are meaningless...so the best dog in the world found nothing....that points to the mccanns innocence

[misty]

The dogs can work with any handler but it is not ideal.  The normal situation is where a handler takes a dog from a young age and is responsible for its training and deployment.  The dog then gets used to its handler and vice versa.  Its not as if we are talking about training a guide dog for instance or even a drugs search dog as they will work for anyone.

The Victim Recovery Dog team is a specialist skill set.  There is far more to it than the dog simply barking or sitting in a particular way.  Over time an experienced handler will be able to read the dog by its reactions which can relate just about as much information as an actual alert.  For example, Eddie became very exited when he approached apartment 5a for the first time which alerted his handler to the fact that this was a prime site.  I bet Martin Grime knew even before he entered that apartment that Eddie was going to find something positive within.

I suggest that Eddie became very excited on approaching 5a as that enclosed area is excellent for retaining odours from "samples" which have recently passed through there, ie not many hours before the dogs arrived.

[jassi]

What sort of 'samples' might they be, then?

[Brietta]

What sort of 'samples' might they be, then?

There is no doubt Eddie showed behaviours which were of significance to his handler.
So imo Eddie became aware of something in that confined space before even entering the apartment.  In the absence of evidence as to what the samples were, we can only speculate, but there is plenty of scope for speculation.
Madeleine's case is rife with it.

[jassi]

Is the speculation over what these 'samples' were, or whether they existed at all, or both 

[pathfinder73]

There is no doubt Eddie showed behaviours which were of significance to his handler.
So imo Eddie became aware of something in that confined space before even entering the apartment.  In the absence of evidence as to what the samples were, we can only speculate, but there is plenty of scope for speculation.
Madeleine's case is rife with it.

We know where Eddie barked. Eddie only barks when he finds what he was trained to find. There is nothing complicated about it.

[John]

My take on it is that it does not matter how many times grime brings the dog back to  a certain spot...doesnt matter if he cues or encourages the dog...hes there to find evidence and if none is found the alerts are meaningless...so the best dog in the world found nothing....that points to the mccanns innocence

How on earth do you arrive at that conclusion Dave?  Regardless of whichever way you want to construe these findings, Eddie detected the scent of death in that apartment and outside in the garden.  Granted there are multiple explanations for these findings but to state he found nothing is a huge falsehood on your behalf.

As for this somehow proving innocence, I'm afraid you will have to do better than that old son.

[John]

I doubt he would agree John. For months now he's been parroting the banal. 

Dave's response will be that I'm wrong, Grime was wrong and Eddie was wrong.  But do three wrongs make a RIGHT?

[Mr Gray]

Dave's response will be that I'm wrong, Grime was wrong and Eddie was wrong.  But do three wrongs make a RIGHT?

Lets start with....what did eddie find

[Mr Gray]

Dave's response will be that I'm wrong, Grime was wrong and Eddie was wrong.  But do three wrongs make a RIGHT?

You are wrong...Grime was right...and we don't know whether eddie was right or wrong