Author Topic: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?  (Read 52476 times)

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Offline sadie

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #195 on: August 22, 2014, 04:58:42 PM »
So, she didn't move the cover then.

She could see that the cover was neatly pulled back.

I agree with Anna.  Even if the bedclothes were pulled back as per the photos we see, I would have still pullee them further back and really checked,   Silly tho it might seem.  After all they weren't pulled back properly.


And my bet is that others would have folded the bed back looking for clues as it dawned that Madeleine hadn't walked off and wandered.


I think too much emphasis is being put on a situation that we really do NOT KNOW exactly. 


Was the bed left exactly like we see it ?  By Madeleine?  Or even by an abductor?   Or had someone tidied it up out of neatness ?


Tbh, it doesn't look like anyone has just got out of that bed.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #196 on: August 22, 2014, 05:09:58 PM »
I agree with Anna. Even if the bedclothes were pulled back as per the photos we see, I would have still pullee them further back and really checked,   Silly tho it might seem.  After all they weren't pulled back properly.


And my bet is that others would have folded the bed back looking for clues as it dawned that Madeleine hadn't walked off and wandered.


I think too much emphasis is being put on a situation that we really do NOT KNOW exactly. 


Was the bed left exactly like we see it ?  By Madeleine?  Or even by an abductor?   Or had someone tidied it up out of neatness ?


Tbh, it doesn't look like anyone has just got out of that bed.

Was Madeleine likely to have been as flat as a pancake then?
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Offline Carana

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #197 on: August 22, 2014, 07:52:50 PM »
Was Madeleine likely to have been as flat as a pancake then?

I was thinking along the same lines. If it was clear that the bed was flat and that she wasn't in it, then flinging back the bedclothes might be an irrational panic reflex action that many people may do, but not necessarily.

Offline Brietta

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #198 on: August 22, 2014, 08:30:44 PM »
In which statement is it mentioned that Kate sat on Madeleine's bed? And if she had, how would that leave a bump?

The lady who seems to have an opinion on everything that went on from Robert Murat to ‘praying Arabs’ and equating a request for a priest with death; but who was very reticent about her actual area of responsibility which was staffing confirms that Dr McCann sat on her own bed – not Madeleine’s.

Snipped from one of her statements - 

She opened the wardrobes of that room in order to confirm that Madeleine wasn't eventually hiding there.

Then everyone left the room and someone shut the door. She remained for some time in the living room, near the GNR elements, Gerry and other elements of the group who got in and out and spoke on their cellular phones.

She observed that none of the elements of the group including the father and mother of the child was concerned with looking for her.

The mother was sitting on the bed of her room, the father was with her (the witness) and the elements of the GNR, and other elements of the group got in and out and spoke on the phone, anxious, in her opinion, to tell the press what happened.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Anna

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #199 on: August 22, 2014, 08:50:54 PM »
I was thinking along the same lines. If it was clear that the bed was flat and that she wasn't in it, then flinging back the bedclothes might be an irrational panic reflex action that many people may do, but not necessarily.

It seems that she often slept on top of the covers, covered with her pink blanket.
 Covered, but on top of the bed, so the bed would be flat and if this was the case, there would be no need to check under the covers for any evidence of why she had left her bed, but I would have done, so an irrational mum I must be!

Excerpt:-
When questioned, she said that during these holidays Madeleine usually slept clutching a soft toy, a pink cat, and sometimes also wrapped in a pink blanket. Sometimes she slept on top of the bedcover and at other times she was covered with it. When shown a photo of Madeleine’s bedroom and bed, she recognizes the soft toy and the blanket of the same colour.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post507.html#p507
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Anna

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #200 on: August 22, 2014, 09:18:28 PM »
Sorry to resurrect Ccat, but trying hard to stay on topic.

Concerning the discussion taking place re: the laundry and the items alerted to in the gymnasium all coming from the same container; see - http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4989.msg180804#msg180804 the potential for cross contamination suggested itself to me.

We have discussed and in general agreed that Eddie showed interest in the paperwork on top of the sideboard; the two yellow items which can be seen on top of the table must either be the pillowcases or towels mentioned in the list inspected in the gymnasium.

The first JPG shows Eddie alerting.

The second shows the table top with two yellow items.

The third shows the table top with the items removed.

The fourth shows yellow items being laid out on the gymnasium floor.

Therefore since all these items were transported in the same box it could be argued that whatever scent interested Eddie in the papers on top of the sideboard, had been transferred.

and CC is on 3.

“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline valeria

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #201 on: August 22, 2014, 09:43:17 PM »
I  don't think kate sat on madeleine's bed

Witness Statement

Jose Maria Batista Roque

G.N.R. Military Personnel

During the search he did not find anything strange apart from the bedclothes on Madeleine's bed, which were too tidy, it appeared that she had been picked up from or had left the bed with great care. There was a mark on the sheet that appeared to be made by a child's body.



Offline sadie

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #202 on: August 22, 2014, 09:48:47 PM »
It seems that she often slept on top of the covers, covered with her pink blanket.
 Covered, but on top of the bed, so the bed would be flat and if this was the case, there would be no need to check under the covers for any evidence of why she had left her bed, but I would have done, so an irrational mum I must be!

Excerpt:-
When questioned, she said that during these holidays Madeleine usually slept clutching a soft toy, a pink cat, and sometimes also wrapped in a pink blanket. Sometimes she slept on top of the bedcover and at other times she was covered with it. When shown a photo of Madeleine’s bedroom and bed, she recognizes the soft toy and the blanket of the same colour.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post507.html#p507

It was quite cool that night.  Would she have slept on top of the bed on such a night?

And if she was left on top, how come the covers are turned neatly back ... and no rumples or hollows?


I really think we are in Cloud cookoo land if we take that photo of the bed as sacresanct.  Not only the family and friends had been looking but also the GNR.  I wonder how much looking the PJ had done before the photos were taken?

Offline Anna

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #203 on: August 22, 2014, 10:21:16 PM »
It was quite cool that night.  Would she have slept on top of the bed on such a night?

And if she was left on top, how come the covers are turned neatly back ... and no rumples or hollows?


I really think we are in Cloud cookoo land if we take that photo of the bed as sacresanct.  Not only the family and friends had been looking but also the GNR.  I wonder how much looking the PJ had done before the photos were taken?

I think They arrived before the forensic team and did a search which discovered the sheet that Valerie posted about.  So they had to disturb the bed, to check under the covers. They arrived at reception around 11pm, but I do not know what time they arrived at the apartment for sure.


Processos
Volume II
Pages 417 to 419


Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa

Date/Time: 2007/05/07 18H45
G.N.R. Military Personnel

Concerning the issue of the process said;
. In the sequence of facts, he was with the patrol of the GNR that went to the Ocean Club Gardens establishment (situated in Para da Luz) on night of May 03, 2007, with the goal of investigating the circumstances that surrounded the disappearance of a minor, of British nationality, that was installed there temporarily, together with the rest of her more direct family – knowing these to be, the respective parents, and two siblings, twins, minors, whose name do not need to be clarified;
. Clarifies that the occurrence in question was transmitted to the above referenced patrol via radio, at time when they were located in Odiaxere;
. The patrol of which he took part, and now as a witness, went immediately to the principal reception of the aforementioned establishment, where there was encountered the father of the missing child;
. Following, this patrol went to the residence where the family of said minor was staying in the ‘Ocean Garden’ together with the father;
. At reaching the location, the two elements that made up the patrol , the current witness and his colleague, Jose Roque, proceeded into the interior of the apartment, with the goal of investigating the contours which eventually surrounded the disappearance of that minor;
. In this sentiment, the deponent states that they searched al the dependencies of the residence and all the pieces of furniture, in order to confirm the disappearance -- effectively confirming that that she was not in the interior;
. The question made, the deponent states that the access to interior of the residence was accessed through a principal door- that is, a wood door which is placed facing north;
. Inside, the deponent encountered the mother and two siblings of the missing minor;
. The deponent stats that he is unable to specify if that entrance door was found open or closed when he reached the apartment during which he was taking in the facts with the witness is now clarifying;
. In the sequence of confirming the facts of the effective disappearance of that minor, he states that this has been communicated prior, for the reason of helping the Policia Judiciara;
. States that other details that may be relevant to the investigation concerns that they were directed to a citizen, of British nationality, who made up the group of tourists together with the family, name of Jane Tanner, and who detected the presence of a suspicious movement of an individual in the immediate area above identified, in the discourse of which was seen transporting a child of an early age;
. And nothing more said, having read the statement, finds it in conformity and signs it;
. The document is duly signed by me …

Pedro Varanda, an Inspector with this Polícia Judiciária.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic18.html
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Anna

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #204 on: August 22, 2014, 11:02:48 PM »
Scenes of crime officers didn't arrive until 12.50 am and the first GNR on the scene, were already there
             So it looks like it was not all friends and family who disturbed the scene



Image

Translation: Ines.

Processos Vol 15

Pages 3856-3858

Witness Statement

Date: 2007/11/20 Time: 14H00 DIC Portimão

João Franciso Páscoa Luis Trigo Barreiras

Occupation: PJ Deputy Specialist

Place of work: Criminal Investigation Department Portimão

He is a specialist in the area of Criminology for the PJ and works in the Criminal Investigation department in Portimão.

His professional responsibilities are to carry out examinations at crime scenes, such as detecting finger prints, biological examinations as well as the identification, signalling and collection of other traces. He is also responsible for making photographic reports and sketches. On the date of the events – 3rd May 2007 he was on duty at the Portimão DIC.

At about 00.10 on the morning of the 4th, he had just finished filing a report about a fire, when he was informed that a child had disappeared in Praia da Luz.

He was brought into service together with an Inspector from the station. It was the inspector’s duty to take notes of the services as well as all the information relating to them. The inspector who accompanied him on that date, Vitor Martins, informed him that the case in question was that of the disappearance of a small girl, of British nationality, who was staying at the OC with her parents.

The immediately left for the scene and arrived about 30 – 40 minutes later, at about 00.40/00.50.

When they arrived at the scene, which they immediately identified due to the presence of GNR officers, as well as quite a lot of people who were walking around the street searching for the child, they immediately went to the apartment in question, where they found several people, including some GNR officers, as well as the head of the Lagos GNR station.

He states that the people inside the apartment and close to it, entered and left the building and circulated in the whole apartment, completely freely, in other words, without there being any restriction or care in preserving the scene. .

He said that these people were the friends of the parents of the missing girl and a lady responsible for the resort called Silvia.

He was shown the room the child had disappeared from, having noticed that people also entered and left that room without any care in the sense of preserving traces. Inside this room there were two children, babies, sleeping in two cots placed in the middle of the room.

It was requested that the babies were moved, which was done accordingly, the witness having subsequently put his gloves on to begin the on-site inspection.

At that moment one of the GNR officers told the witness that they had already searched for the girl in the wardrobes and other places in the apartment without having taken any care as to leaving their own traces or for destroying or adulterating any traces that might be of interest to the investigation.

After the arrival of the witness and his colleague Vitor Martins the scene was isolated and the inspection began, namely the collection of statements and inspection of the scene, the respective reports that were subsequently attached to the process documents.

The witness carried out finger print testing on the inside of the bedroom window, where the girl had been sleeping, leaving other examinations for the following day given that on that occasion these tests could not be carried out in the best technical conditions. For this reason, the apartments and the surrounding area were sealed off, watched over by the GNR officers who remained on site.

As far as he knows, after the first examination, other members from the finger print detection service and also officers from the LPC Crime Scene arrived at the scene.

The witness states that, at a given moment, the father of the missing girl led him to understand that he had already contacted the Sky News TV station and informed them of the situation.

As much the father as the girl’s mother looked quite worried with the situation and he can even confirm that the mother was very agitated and out of control, crying a lot and shouting in an uncontrolled manner, saying in English “They have taken her”.

He remembers that he remained on the scene until about 04.00. There were many people in the street. He does not remember having seen Robert Murat there on that occasion.

When questioned, he says that it was a fresh night with some breeze. It was not a clear night, nor was it very dark. Referring to the light conditions around the apartment, he says they were very dark, and thinks that even on a bright night there would always be little light around the apartment because of the trees and lack of street lights.

Reads, ratifies and signs.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post112.html#p112
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #205 on: August 23, 2014, 03:24:05 PM »
and CC is on 3.



Great find. That would explain why Eddie was interested in the table not because of pillow cases or anything else.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline pegasus

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #206 on: August 23, 2014, 04:39:44 PM »
Amongst the items on the villa dining table are two white pillows
These clearly correspond to the white pillows in forensic clothing photos 24 and 25.

Also on the dining table are two yellow pillowcases (not striped)
These clearly correspond to the yellow pillowcases in forensic clothing photo23.

It is easy to prove that these pillows and pillowcases were provided as part of the villa rental deal, and had therefore never been in apartment 5A.
One of the pillows is marked "Visto do Mar" (the name of the villa).

So the cardboard box we are interested in includes amongst its contents:
Four items (photos 23 24 25) which have never been in the 5A, and are not signalled
Three items (photos 1 and 3, and one of either 2 or 4) which have been in 5A, and which are signalled.




Offline Brietta

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #207 on: August 23, 2014, 05:51:38 PM »


Great find. That would explain why Eddie was interested in the table not because of pillow cases or anything else.

Sorry PF that is not the case.
When Eddie was showing a bit of interest in the table, cuddle cat was still hiding in the cupboard; if you check the video you will see the pillows and the pillowcases are on the table top when he was barking; that still frame is after those items had been removed to be packed.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #208 on: August 23, 2014, 05:58:14 PM »
Sorry PF that is not the case.
When Eddie was showing a bit of interest in the table, cuddle cat was still hiding in the cupboard; if you check the video you will see the pillows and the pillowcases are on the table top when he was barking; that still frame is after those items had been removed to be packed.

What are you on about? CC scent was ON the table in the footage. Eddie can detect scent away from the source.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 06:05:15 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?
« Reply #209 on: August 23, 2014, 06:06:31 PM »
What are you on about? CC scent was above/on the table in that pic. Eddie can detect scent away from the source.

Cuddle cat was in the cupboard when Eddie alerted to the papers on top; Eddie just was not interested in CC; please check the video again and you will see that still showing CCbeing packed away is taken from footage which is at a remove from the time Eddie alerted.
Eddie did not bark in the direction of the chair and the table because CC was there; when Eddie barked CC was in the cupboard.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....