Claims that Nevill phoned police while Sheila went on rampage.

[anglolawyer]

AE refers to NB's number as Tolleshunt D'Arcy 209 and JB's number as Maldon 88645.  Whereas the BT phone directory has them down as Maldon 860209 and Maldon 88645 respectively.

See BT phone entries in post above and AE's WS below:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2177

I defer to you.   It still means Nevill dialled 5 numbers on a rotary phone and then waited for JB to wake up, come downstairs and answer.   Have you an idea of a reasonably plausible state of affairs that would explain the call itself and what he supposedly said?

[Holly Goodhead]

I defer to you.   It still means Nevill dialled 5 numberson a rotary phone and then waited for JB to wake up, come downstairs and answer.   Have you an idea of a reasonably plausible state of affairs that would explain the call itself and what he supposedly said?

But does it?  It's still not clear to me what number NB would have needed to dial for JB and vice-versa.  I recall in the mid 80's dialling friends within the village using 4 digits and friends in the neighbouring town using 6 digits.  I think it depends on the definition of local/exchange?   

I believe NB and June had a phobia, for want of a better word, about anyone finding out about SC's mental illness and went to great lengths to hide/deny it.  Don't forget SC was the adopted daughter and so to acknowledge SC's mental illness was possibly having to also acknowledge SC's unknown origins/hereditary background/genetics/bad blood/their infertility and b) whether they themselves had in some part caused SC's mental illness by her upbringing/June's mental illness. 

Yes NB would have to wait for JB to wake and move himself downstairs to answer.  All initial WS's state JB claimed NB said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun".  Nothing about please come over.  If NB phoned EP emergency number or non-emergency he would need to confirm his name, address, tel number and a brief outline of the situation so it would not be quick.  If he phoned EP and said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun" then what?  JB was aware of all the details: full name, address, tel number, weapons at WHF and more importantly SC's mental history.  Bottom line is no jury would convict someone on the basis that a phone call wasn't made when it can't be proved either way. 

Also perhaps NB had experienced a long history of newcomers to WHF getting lost?  Its tucked away and not easy to find.

[anglolawyer]

But does it?  It's still not clear to me what number NB would have needed to dial for JB and vice-versa.  I recall in the mid 80's dialling friends within the village using 4 digits and friends in the neighbouring town using 6 digits.  I think it depends on the definition of local/exchange?   

I believe NB and June had a phobia, for want of a better word, about anyone finding out about SC's mental illness and went to great lengths to hide/deny it.  Don't forget SC was the adopted daughter and so to acknowledge SC's mental illness was possibly having to also acknowledge SC's unknown origins/hereditary background/genetics/bad blood/their infertility and b) whether they themselves had in some part caused SC's mental illness by her upbringing/June's mental illness. 

Yes NB would have to wait for JB to wake and move himself downstairs to answer.  All initial WS's state JB claimed NB said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun".  Nothing about please come over.  If NB phoned EP emergency number or non-emergency he would need to confirm his name, address, tel number and a brief outline of the situation so it would not be quick.  If he phoned EP and said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun" then what?  JB was aware of all the details: full name, address, tel number, weapons at WHF and more importantly SC's mental history.  Bottom line is no jury would convict someone on the basis that a phone call wasn't made when it can't be proved either way. 

Also perhaps NB had experienced a long history of newcomers to WHF getting lost?  Its tucked away and not easy to find.

I thought of a possibly plausible scenario.   Say she is sitting on June's bed, cradling the rifle and muttering about having voices from God that she maybe kill her kds before they kill her, or something. and Nevill, humouring her, asks whether he might consult Jeremy about this important family matter and she says, 'sure, why not?'   He calls JB with the intention you set out and then hangs up when she appears at the kitchen door.   Something like that is possble I guess.

[Holly Goodhead]

I thought of a possibly plausible scenario.   Say she is sitting on June's bed, cradling the rifle and muttering about having voices from God that she maybe kill her kds before they kill her, or something. and Nevill, humouring her, asks whether he might consult Jeremy about this important family matter and she says, 'sure, why not?'   He calls JB with the intention you set out and then hangs up when she appears at the kitchen door.   Something like that is possble I guess.

I'm sure there are various plausible scenarios. 

It is well documented that a) NB had a low regard for the local police and b) the Bambers kept SC's mental illness private and had a deep-seated aversion to others knowing about it.  Imo sound reasons for NB not calling EP.  Please can we get back to the thread 

[anglolawyer]

I'm sure there are various plausible scenarios. 

It is well documented that a) NB had a low regard for the local police and b) the Bambers kept SC's mental illness private and had a deep-seated aversion to others knowing about it.  Imo sound reasons for NB not calling EP.  Please can we get back to the thread 

To discuss what?   We all seem agreed that Nevill did not call the cops.

Actually, I'm not sure there are that many plausible possibilities.

[Holly Goodhead]

The logs posted above were made by PC West and Malcolm Bonnett.  As far as I am concerned they both refer to JB's call and one is simply relaying the same message to the other albeit they use their own words. 

In the CT's book they claim JB did not make ref as to what firearms were kept at WHF in his initial call to PC West.  That's not what PC West (1990) says in his trial testimony.  He states he asked JB what weapons were kept at WHF and JB detailed the weapons.  It seems obvious that if JB phoned EP and said words to the effect my dad called and said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun" EP are going to ask about the firearms.  As far as I'm aware the police are trained to elicit as much info as possible to deal appropriately with the situation.  They would also surely ask NB's tel number to get the line checked out since JB told them it went dead!?  Again the CT claim JB did not provide NB's number!?  This whole phone call from NB to EP is a complete waste of time IMO. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=170.msg1779#msg1779

[Holly Goodhead]

Plus it cost me £9.99 for 12 credits to ancestry.com to access old phone books which I could have bought a semi-decent bottle of wine with 

[anglolawyer]

Plus it cost me £9.99 for 12 credits to ancestry.com to access old phone books which I could have bought a semi-decent bottle of wine with 

Why don't you get up at three o'clock this morning and see how long it takes you to look up the nos. for Witham and Chelmsford?  In fact, why not call them and tell them to get off the line because a trains coming?   Then you can report back on how long that took.

[Holly Goodhead]

Why don't you get up at three o'clock this morning and see how long it takes you to look up the nos. for Witham and Chelmsford?  In fact, why not call them and tell them to get off the line because a trains coming?   Then you can report back on how long that took.

Hmmm a bit difficult for me to get up at 3am this morning when you're asking me at 8.09am!  Anyhow why don't you since it's your idea.  Or perhaps you need your beauty sleep.  What is your experiment going to prove or disprove?

I reckon it would take me max 2 minutes to look up any one number in an English language phone directory regardless of time of day/night.  Probably nearer 1 minute but 2 max.  No idea of the point you're endeavouring to make?

Did JB phone Witham?  I thought he said he was aware it was unmanned at night hence he called Chelmsford?

[anglolawyer]

Hmmm a bit difficult for me to get up at 3am this morning when you're asking me at 8.09am!  Anyhow why don't you since it's your idea.  Or perhaps you need your beauty sleep.  What is your experiment going to prove or disprove?

I reckon it would take me max 2 minutes to look up any one number in an English language phone directory regardless of time of day/night.  Probably nearer 1 minute but 2 max.  No idea of the point you're endeavouring to make?

Did JB phone Witham?  I thought he said he was aware it was unmanned at night hence he called Chelmsford?

You were complaining you wasted £9.99 and I was just trying to be helpful by giving you something to do.   Bamber said it took him '10 minutes at the outside'.   The point I am making is this:  if guilty, he needed to account for the delay between Nevill's call to him and his call to the cops (the real reason being that he had spent the interval cycling home) and therefore, wasting time looking up phone numbers rather than simply calling 999 was how he did it.   Your estimate of 1 to 2 minutes seems about right.   He said 10.   So, he's guilty, no?

I don't know where I read it but I read somewhere that he called Witham first, his local nick, and Chelmsford later.   Have to work out where I got that from.   Maybe Lee, maybe his own WS.

[Holly Goodhead]

You were complaining you wasted £9.99 and I was just trying to be helpful by giving you something to do.   Bamber said it took him '10 minutes at the outside'.   The point I am making is this:  if guilty, he needed to account for the delay between Nevill's call to him and his call to the cops (the real reason being that he had spent the interval cycling home) and therefore, wasting time looking up phone numbers rather than simply calling 999 was how he did it.   Your estimate of 1 to 2 minutes seems about right.   He said 10.   So, he's guilty, no?

I don't know where I read it but I read somewhere that he called Witham first, his local nick, and Chelmsford later.   Have to work out where I got that from.   Maybe Lee, maybe his own WS.

In the absence of satellite/digital technology the whole phone call aspect of the case is a complete waste of time: she said x time, he said y time, they said z time, she kept her clock 10 mins fast so she could have an extra 10 mins kip, he misread the clock...How can anything be determined from this?   

Most guys tend to overestimate    Does the 10 mins incl looking for the actual directory? 

JB makes no ref in his WS's or police interviews about calling Witham.  It seems to have originated from PC West.

[anglolawyer]

In the absence of satellite/digital technology the whole phone call aspect of the case is a complete waste of time: she said x time, he said y time, they said z time, she kept her clock 10 mins fast so she could have an extra 10 mins kip, he misread the clock...How can anything be determined from this?   

Most guys tend to overestimate    Does the 10 mins incl looking for the actual directory? 

JB makes no ref in his WS's or police interviews about calling Witham.  It seems to have originated from PC West.

The phone calls make no sense at all no matter how you look at them.   Not the timings and not the fact they were made at all.

[Holly Goodhead]

The phone calls make no sense at all no matter how you look at them.   Not the timings and not the fact they were made at all.

They're subjective.  Unfortunately we don't know what weight, if any, the jury gave to the various aspects of the prosecutions case.  It seems to me from the judges summing up the jury placed a lot of emphasis on the silencer evidence.  According to CAL's book a member of EP asked the jury foreman how they reached the verdict and he said they were basically directed by the judge to find JB guilty and had this not been the case they would have reached a not guilty verdict.

[anglolawyer]

They're subjective.  Unfortunately we don't know what weight, if any, the jury gave to the various aspects of the prosecutions case.  It seems to me from the judges summing up the jury placed a lot of emphasis on the silencer evidence.  According to CAL's book a member of EP asked the jury foreman how they reached the verdict and he said they were basically directed by the judge to find JB guilty and had this not been the case they would have reached a not guilty verdict.

I would not place much faith in that rumour.   That might have been one of the minority speaking.

It seems as though they were closely interested in the blood evidence in the silencer to judge by the questions they raised with the judge.   If the silencer stands up, that's it by itself isn't it?   She can't have shot herself and then put the silencer downstairs, obviously.

[anglolawyer]

Does anyone recall the source for something I thought I saw.   Im worried that I may have made it up.   Did Bamber circle the number of the police in the telephone directory in the course of looking it up?

While here, I have tracked down a reference to something important.   Per Ann Eaton's 8th Sep 85 witness statement, she says he told police on the morning of 7th Aug that he called Witham police first, got no answer and then called Chelmsford.   Suspicious, no?

Another thing on the phone calls that occurs to me so I'll jot it down - two things actually - concerning the idea that Malcolm Bonnet's note records a call from Nevill:

(i) by what means would Nevill place a call that, by extraordinary coincidence, went right through to Bonnet?   Bonnet was not at Chelmsford or Witham and AFAIK he was not handling 999 calls either (which would still entail a very high degree of coincidence), and

(ii) as Jeremy himself says Nevill called him at 3.00 a.m. what on earth was going on at WHF between that time and 3.36 which is the time recorded by Bonnet on the supposedly suspicious note?