Is there any hard evidence whatsoever in the Madeleine McCann case?

[Brietta]

That post doesn't make sense. They knew straight away it couldn't be her. No boot marks found on bed or chair. You search for your child not buts when she could be close by!

Oh I see, the people running around shouting "MADELEINE!!!" were doing what exactly ???

[misty]

That post doesn't make sense. They knew straight away it couldn't be her. No boot marks found on bed or chair. You search for your child not buts when she could be close by!

As a parent, you hope & pray that the worst imaginable scenario isn't materialising and look for a more rational explanation. Kate had already searched the interior, looked out the window to the front, and hadn't passed Madeleine en route via the rear to perform the check.
Now - why wasn't the chair positioned right beside the shutter pulley-cord forensically examined?

[ShiningInLuz]

My bold on the comment above. That bit is bugging me.  Why were the shutters slightly raised when the PJ took photos on early 4 May 2007?

I'd expect them to be down.  As in, Gerry tied to force them up.  Dianne tried to force them up.  Perhaps they were left exactly as Kate said she found them.  If so, that is one skinny b*++**d who got in or out.

IF the PJ photos are an accurate depiction of the scene, and I have no reason to believe this is so, then I have to conclude that no one entered that way, no one exited that way, Madeleine was not passed out of the window that way.

What is bugging me is why the shutter (and possibly window) should be open when the PJ arrived.  It does not make sense.

[Anna]

Kate did apparently look out of that window, so the shutters must have been higher up . Perhaps they were left that way after Gerry and Diane messed about with them? The window would have been closed however, because of the twins.

[Brietta]

I'd expect them to be down.  As in, Gerry tied to force them up.  Dianne tried to force them up.  Perhaps they were left exactly as Kate said she found them.  If so, that is one skinny b*++**d who got in or out.

IF the PJ photos are an accurate depiction of the scene, and I have no reason to believe this is so, then I have to conclude that no one entered that way, no one exited that way, Madeleine was not passed out of the window that way.

What is bugging me is why the shutter (and possibly window) should be open when the PJ arrived.  It does not make sense.

When they were checking to see if the shutter could be raised from the outside they must first have been lowered from the raised position using the interior mechanism ... then tried to be raised manually from outside.

As has been demonstrated, to do this successfully one must raise the shutter slightly ~ slide the window open ~ then while continuing to balance the shutter open with one hand use the other to complete the raising by pulling the interior cord.

If this is not done carefully ~ the shutter will jam at an angle:  I think this is what happened when Gerry experimented with it and to his dismay discovered it could be opened from outside.

[Alice Purjorick]

When they were checking to see if the shutter could be raised from the outside they must first have been lowered from the raised position using the interior mechanism ... then tried to be raised manually from outside.

As has been demonstrated, to do this successfully one must raise the shutter slightly ~ slide the window open ~ then while continuing to balance the shutter open with one hand use the other to complete the raising by pulling the interior cord.

If this is not done carefully ~ the shutter will jam at an angle:  I think this is what happened when Gerry experimented with it and to his dismay discovered it could be opened from outside.

The window appears to have an internal locking CDA. So presumably it was left open or the guy went inside first to release it before going outside to raise the shutter to allow him to open the window and gain entrance?
Yeah that would make sense ......just about in this topsy turvy world  &%+((£

[Brietta]

The window appears to have an internal locking CDA. So presumably it was left open or the guy went inside first to release it before going outside to raise the shutter to allow him to open the window and gain entrance?
Yeah that would make sense ......just about in this topsy turvy world  &%+((£

We have no idea who opened the window and raised the shutter.

There is no evidence whether the window was opened and the shutter raised from the inside or if the shutter was raised and the window opened from the outside.

We have no idea why the window was opened and the shutter raised.

The only person who knows why ... is the person who did it ... perhaps when that person is apprehended and interviewed we may discover the answers.

Whatever the reason ... is it as important as the fact of the absence of Madeleine McCann from her bed and from the room ... sometimes I think we lose sight of that.

[G-Unit]

We have no idea who opened the window and raised the shutter.

There is no evidence whether the window was opened and the shutter raised from the inside or if the shutter was raised and the window opened from the outside.

We have no idea why the window was opened and the shutter raised.

The only person who knows why ... is the person who did it ... perhaps when that person is apprehended and interviewed we may discover the answers.

Whatever the reason ... is it as important as the fact of the absence of Madeleine McCann from her bed and from the room ... sometimes I think we lose sight of that.

The whole point of posting on these threads is because people cannot forget that a child disappeared. The child is the focus of everyone's interest and concern and she deserves justice and a complete and believable explanation of what happened to her.

[Brietta]

The whole point of posting on these threads is because people cannot forget that a child disappeared. The child is the focus of everyone's interest and concern and she deserves justice and a complete and believable explanation of what happened to her.

The people to whom the disappearance of Madeleine McCann is paramount are the members of her family who have lived every day of the last nearly eight years with her absence.

To that end they have lobbied and fought for her right to be looked for ... they have succeeded in that in the teeth of fierce opposition the arguments for which are some of those I have seen you employ ... and they, Madeleine and the authorities investigating her disappearance deserve a little less interest from some quarters and be allowed to get on with it.

There is evidence which has enabled the reopening of Madeleine McCann's case ... it is an irrelevance whether we know what that may be.

Perhaps now it would be more appropriate to be redirecting interest away from the child whose parents' efforts have given a properly conducted investigation at long last and focus on all those other children that have so concerned people over the years.
I believe there is a very good charity on the go which would welcome any help that could be given ... as long as it doesn't involve cyber attack on their website.

[Brietta]

Worth remembering that the topic is about evidence in Madeleine's case and not just another exercise in McCann bashing which manages to insinuate itself into every topic.

There obviously is evidence in Madeleine McCann's case; possibly even a lot more evidence than is usual in a missing child case despite the botched forensics.
For example, what was there when Sarah Payne was abducted in the brief period when was out of sight of her family?
Only a briefly glimpsed white van.

There was witness evidence from before and after the 3rd much of which was not followed through; there was the infamous 'not relevant to the inquiry' Piava file from 2008 ~ 2010; there have been the private investigator files and DCI Redwood spoke of new evidence.

So it doesn't surprise me in the slightest you are less than keen to discuss that.

[ShiningInLuz]

When they were checking to see if the shutter could be raised from the outside they must first have been lowered from the raised position using the interior mechanism ... then tried to be raised manually from outside.

As has been demonstrated, to do this successfully one must raise the shutter slightly ~ slide the window open ~ then while continuing to balance the shutter open with one hand use the other to complete the raising by pulling the interior cord.

If this is not done carefully ~ the shutter will jam at an angle:  I think this is what happened when Gerry experimented with it and to his dismay discovered it could be opened from outside.

So....

After Madeleine disappeared the shutter was ... what?  Somewhat lowered until just open, at which point Gerry could raise it?  That I can buy except no one got in or out with the shutter in the position of the PJ photo.

However, Dianne could not raise the shutter.  Was she weak or was the shutter fully closed?  Or what?

Then the PJ photos show the shutter slightly open.  Not enough for someone to get in/out, but not closed enough to beat Dianne.

We have a magic shutter going up and down that might or might not be able to be raised from the outside.  (It could.)

[Lyall]

Worth remembering that the topic is about evidence in Madeleine's case and not just another exercise in McCann bashing which manages to insinuate itself into every topic.

There obviously is evidence in Madeleine McCann's case; possibly even a lot more evidence than is usual in a missing child case despite the botched forensics.
For example, what was there when Sarah Payne was abducted in the brief period when was out of sight of her family?
Only a briefly glimpsed white van.

There was witness evidence from before and after the 3rd much of which was not followed through; there was the infamous 'not relevant to the inquiry' Piava file from 2008 ~ 2010; there have been the private investigator files and DCI Redwood spoke of new evidence.

So it doesn't surprise me in the slightest you are less than keen to discuss that.

Why aren't you discussing it? If you can link any of that evidence to Madeleine's disappearance you'll have done a better job than Summers and Swan were able to do. Can you?

[Brietta]

So....

After Madeleine disappeared the shutter was ... what?  Somewhat lowered until just open, at which point Gerry could raise it?  That I can buy except no one got in or out with the shutter in the position of the PJ photo.

However, Dianne could not raise the shutter.  Was she weak or was the shutter fully closed?  Or what?

Then the PJ photos show the shutter slightly open.  Not enough for someone to get in/out, but not closed enough to beat Dianne.

We have a magic shutter going up and down that might or might not be able to be raised from the outside.  (It could.)

I think Dianne was unable to lift it because it had jammed in that position because the interior cord had not been used.

When Kate first saw it raised she was able to look through the window to check outside, therefore it must have been fully raised. 

Quite obviously the shutter should not have been touched but at that stage only the hysterical mother thought it was a crime scene.  It was stupid to do so but I can appreciate why it was done.  Although panicking and still unaware of the reality of the situation Gerry checked it out because he was at that stage unable to grasp that the shutter could be raised from outside .
It is only recently that the McCann sceptics after arguing for years have accepted it can be done.

It is intriguing that there were no prints lifted from that area either for Dianne or Gerry.

I do not think that entry was made to the apartment via the window although it remains an option given that was apparently the preferred entry point in burglaries in the building in the preceding weeks.

Heri gives a very plausible explanation http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html which has Madeleine approaching the window and being lifted through.

However, because no evidence of entry was apparent doesn't mean it didn't happen (there is no forensic evidence that Gerry and Dianne interfered with the shutter) and someone lithe enough to get in and out of windows could easily do it without leaving a trace.

So until we know better, I think it remains an option, perhaps it wasn't closed behind him for the simple reason of haste and his hands were holding the child.

[Alice Purjorick]

We have no idea who opened the window and raised the shutter.

There is no evidence whether the window was opened and the shutter raised from the inside or if the shutter was raised and the window opened from the outside.

We have no idea why the window was opened and the shutter raised.

The only person who knows why ... is the person who did it ... perhaps when that person is apprehended and interviewed we may discover the answers.

Whatever the reason ... is it as important as the fact of the absence of Madeleine McCann from her bed and from the room ... sometimes I think we lose sight of that.

True! but if it were locked from the inside then the window had to opened from the inside and the shutters too could then be raised from the inside using the appropriate CDA. The shutters would then remain in the position they had been raised to.
It starts to look a bit like jiggling things to suit the end result to me.

[Brietta]

True! but if it were locked from the inside then the window had to opened from the inside and the shutters too could then be raised from the inside using the appropriate CDA. The shutters would then remain in the position they had been raised to.
It starts to look a bit like jiggling things to suit the end result to me.

Who is to say that is not exactly what happened?   There is no evidence one way or the other and there is nothing to indicate exactly how an intruder gained entry to or exit from the apartment.

The only irrefutable evidence that something untoward occurred is the absence of Madeleine McCann.