Author Topic: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?  (Read 180721 times)

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OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #405 on: May 05, 2015, 10:26:21 AM »
Isn't it usual practice for dogs to retire with their handlers?
Yes. I said that.

But if we are to believe that the dogs ere so much better than any other dogs, why were they allowed to go.

I maintain that in reality we have no reason other than Grime's commercial boasts that they were in any way out of the ordinary for scent dogs.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #406 on: May 05, 2015, 10:26:53 AM »
Isn't it usual practice for dogs to retire with their handlers?

Yes, it is.

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #407 on: May 05, 2015, 10:28:08 AM »
With intent to deceive is an offence.

Exactly.

The original statement was tat it was an offence to impersonate a police officer. It is not. It is an offence to impersonate police officer with the intent to deceive. Two very different matters in law.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #408 on: May 05, 2015, 10:42:38 AM »
And...?

30 years later the dogs correctly alerted to the presence of a cadaver but no evidence was found. Another confession.

Oct. 11, 1976: Jeanette Zapata vanishes.

Jan. 12, 2005: Madison police use cadaver dogs to check the basement of Zapata's former home on Indian Trace in Madison. Other cadaver dog searches of that property and other locations take place throughout 2005 and into 2006. The dogs alert to the scent of human remains, but none are found.


« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 10:45:17 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #409 on: May 05, 2015, 10:59:32 AM »
30 years later the dogs correctly alerted to the presence of a cadaver but no evidence was found. Another confession.

Oct. 11, 1976: Jeanette Zapata vanishes.

Jan. 12, 2005: Madison police use cadaver dogs to check the basement of Zapata's former home on Indian Trace in Madison. Other cadaver dog searches of that property and other locations take place throughout 2005 and into 2006. The dogs alert to the scent of human remains, but none are found.

google anectdotal evidence

Offline Brietta

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #410 on: May 05, 2015, 11:02:43 AM »
Ok. So a 64% of correctly alerting to a scent within his training parameters.

Unconscious cueing?
Can unconscious bias be excluded? The inspections weren't double-blind.

Sex fluids?
Some people don't believe that decaying sex fluids are within those parameters... whereas I find the notes of the Jersey alerts to be ambiguous. If that decaying scent is within them, then that adds a different factor as to what he may have correctly alerted to.

Blood?
Grime has stated that the CSI dog (Keela) only reacts to the physical presence of blood. Grime stated that Eddie also reacted to dried blood from a living person, but he did not state that there needed to be a physical presence for him to do so. If a bloodied plaster had been left lying around and removed just before the inspection, Keela wouldn't have reacted, but it's not known whether Eddie would have noticed the airborne scent in the absence of the physical source.

Other decaying human material?
Then there's the possibility that he was reacting to the scent of other decomposing body material (e.g. the hypothetical example of a tiny lump of flesh from a sliced finger). He would be alerting correctly, but the person could still be alive.

Corpse or contaminant?
Then there is the possibility that he was correctly alerting to the residual scent of an entire corpse. That could be the result of a body having physically lain in situ, or it could be something within the scent area that had been in contact with a body at some point. That apartment had gone from residential to a holiday let. There doesn't appear to have been any eliminatory investigation as to where the furniture came from.

Madeleine?
If he had alerted to the residual scent of a dead body, could that have been Madeleine? I have read the literature on various scientific experiments, just as I have read anecdotal accounts mainly promoted by dog handlers.

I don't believe that the possibility can be totally excluded, but the number of VOCs released in the first 1-2 hours are few. And even then scientific experiments conducted in controlled conditions don't mimic everyday reality.

How likely, therefore, is it that Eddie actually did react to a residual scent of a dead Madeleine?

It certainly doesn't appear as simple as missing child + dog alert = dead child.

A well reasoned post, Carana.

I find the time spent in 5A extraordinary when a comparison is made of the time the dogs spent there and in the other apartments in the complex.

Particularly the apartment where Eddie showed enough interest in one of the bedrooms for Martin Grime to have the bed moved ~ then cursorily dismissed and the apartment where the sideboard was pulled away from the wall to allow Eddie access ~ which he was called back from and stood down in almost indecent haste.

at 39:30 in ?B Eddie is continually called away from a point of interest in a corner of the room at the sideboard, which is later pulled out to allow better access (it is an English voice which prompts the action, which is not Martin Grime's).

at 39:50 Eddie decides he is going to snack on something he has retrieved from the waste bin in the kitchen.

at 41:07 Eddie is allowed a cursory run behind the sideboard before being stood down
"we've searched this apartment with the VRD and he's shown no interest in the flat in what he's trained to find at all, so we're finished"

from 43:32 in 4D Eddie showed great interest in the areas under the beds where there was sweaty? footwear ~

at 46:35 it is declared that the VRD shows no interest in what he had been trained to find
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4NMYPsFKb8

Three thoughts occur ... I presume the apartment where Eddie's interest meant the sideboard was moved out was 5B ... which shared a wall with 5A ... perhaps both flats also shared the source of an interesting smell?

I presume 4D was the apartment to which the McCanns were decanted on the night Madeleine disappeared; one wonders if that was known to Martin Grime, certainly apartment 5A had been international news for some months.

One wonders what weight a dog handler's opinion carries in the light of exactly the same excitement ~ minus the all important bark eventually forthcoming in 5A ~ which was not afforded the same work by the handler who already had the desired 'result' under his belt.
The person with the English voice (Harrison?) noticed it ... it is also apparent to anyone watching the video.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #411 on: May 05, 2015, 11:04:39 AM »
30 years later the dogs correctly alerted to the presence of a cadaver but no evidence was found. Another confession.

Oct. 11, 1976: Jeanette Zapata vanishes.

Jan. 12, 2005: Madison police use cadaver dogs to check the basement of Zapata's former home on Indian Trace in Madison. Other cadaver dog searches of that property and other locations take place throughout 2005 and into 2006. The dogs alert to the scent of human remains, but none are found.

Black Swan.

Offline Brietta

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #412 on: May 05, 2015, 11:22:14 AM »

3.10.11

We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
July 2007.
We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by ACPO.

http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Eleanor

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #413 on: May 05, 2015, 11:27:41 AM »
I would still like to know who got paid for the gaunt to Portugal.

I suspect it was Martin Grime himself.

Eddie's Licence was out of date by then so he wouldn't have been allowed to operate in UK.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 11:30:02 AM by Eleanor »

Offline Carana

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #414 on: May 05, 2015, 11:34:57 AM »
I would still like to know who got paid for the gaunt to Portugal.

I suspect it was Martin Grime himself.

Eddie's Licence was out of date by then so he wouldn't have been allowed to operate in UK.

AFAIK, the PJ got the bill (cf Harrison's cost estimate).

Offline Eleanor

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #415 on: May 05, 2015, 11:41:17 AM »
AFAIK, the PJ got the bill (cf Harrison's cost estimate).

Wasn't Harrison in some way involved with Martin Grime's Company?  Please correct me if I am wrong.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #416 on: May 05, 2015, 11:43:33 AM »
You do not understand science.

Information generalises as the nose and the relationship are the same for any scent dog.

That is rather a sweeping generalistion about Carew which would presuppose you know the identity and profession of that particular poster. Even to say "well I can tell by the posts" would imply you had eliminated the possibility that the poster was a wise man taking the piss which would presuppose you knew for sure he wasn't.
That would leave one wondering.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 12:04:50 PM by Alice Purjorick »
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Carew

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #417 on: May 05, 2015, 11:56:08 AM »
Amazing how "cherry picking" in terms of interpretation along with  " one wonders.......nudge, nudge, wink, wink " can seem to be used in attempts to traduce a professional doing his job.

Presumably the "expectation of a result" by the handler wasn`t quite so high outside the balcony............hence the weaker response by the dog ?

(He might have really gone for a good old woof otherwise.)

Was the same "expectation of a result" evident around some garments and not others ?.............Does the oft-touted cross contamination clause come into play here...........and was it known by the handler which were cross-contaminated  and which weren`t ?

Huge expectation to alert to a t-shirt?

(Give me strength.)








Offline pathfinder73

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #418 on: May 05, 2015, 12:03:20 PM »
Black Swan.

The British have taken over this case and are searching for a body because of British dog evidence. Tannerman is history and they are using British dogs again. Not any old dog but their best ones. Oh the irony!
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Benice

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #419 on: May 05, 2015, 12:13:54 PM »
What are the chances of the only clothing (out of a huge amount in total) to be alerted to -  just happening to have all been packed into the same box?       Considering the number of containers involved -  the odds of that happening merely by coincidence must be massive.

Why didn't Eddie alert to the same clothing whilst it was in the villa - but instead -  only alerted to them after they were removed and taken elsewhere?

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal