Could both June and Sheila have been in the master bedroom?

[Myster]

Could it be that he was resentful he ended up in the "narrow bed" at a time when his immature ego was unable to cope with his sense of abandonment by his birth parents AND being resigned to the "narrow bed" by his adoptive parents?  NB and June's bed looks like it might be queen sized.  SC had the choice of two spacious looking singles.  What about the dog baskets?

No, his little room probably had racy pics from Playboy, Penthouse, etc. pinned up, so he didn't want to move to different one with bigger bed because it would mean refixing them elsewhere.

What about the dog baskets?

[Holly Goodhead]

No, his little room probably had racy pics from Playboy, Penthouse, etc. pinned up, so he didn't want to move to different one with bigger bed because it would mean refixing them elsewhere.

What about the dog baskets?

They might have been proportionately larger than his "narrow bed" sowing the seeds of discord.

[Caroline]

When FE called WHF circa March '85 to speak with NB re SC's state he asked if NB could come as soon as possible.  NB said he could not come until the following day.   NB and June both visited the following day and took SC to St Andrews where she was readmitted for in-patient psychiatric care.  So it appears they were not unduly concerned about SC's state?

That's when they would have had to drive to London - she was in the same house on the night of the murders. Not as much effort required - don't mean that in a nasty way just it was easier to deal with being in their own home.

[Caroline]

Is there any evidence the visible slipper is one of a pair in-situ?

Not that I know of.

[Caroline]

I think you can just make out a thin black edge of another slipper above the visible one, and it isn't part of the linear carpet pattern which can be seen towards the bottom of the pic...

Yes, I see that too. Thank Myster, missed that before :)

[Holly Goodhead]

That's when they would have had to drive to London - she was in the same house on the night of the murders. Not as much effort required - don't mean that in a nasty way just it was easier to deal with being in their own home.

I would have thought SC's state was the determining factor not her proximity?  WHF to Morshead Mansions is a little over 1.5 hour drive.

It makes no sense to me that the Bambers were happy to leave SC to her own devices knowing she was in some considerable state and yet were so concerned when she was under their roof she needed to sleep with June?

[Holly Goodhead]

DOES IT SOUND LIKE JUNE AND SC HAD THE SORT OF RELATIONSHIP WHERE THEY WOULD SHARE A BED?

Dr F's wit stats

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6191

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6193

"She said she felt as if she was caught up in a "coven of evil".  These feelings appeared to be involved with her relationship with her adoptive mother and her standards of good and evil".

"She did see that Mrs Bamber was a threat to her, and did not want to visit the BAMBERS at their farm in Essex.  Sheila felt that Mrs Bamber had been over-protective towards her and found it difficult to express warm feelings towards her".

"In hindsight I believe that Sheila would have relapsed into a state of psychosis, probably having a firmly held belief or delusion involving concepts of good and evil, and certainly paranoid, possibly involving her mother."

"Both June and Sheila suffered dillusional states of religion and Sheila's illness was influenced by her mother although I do not think the illnesses were caused by the same problem."

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6197

"I also treated Sheila's adopted mother, Mrs June BAMBER at St Andrew's Hospital, Northants.  I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed.  She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions.  This was around 1959.  She required ECT as an in-patient and made a full recover.

Farhad Emani (Freddie) wit stats:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=214

"She also had a deep dislike of her stepmother who apparently kept quoting religion at her.  This would upset Sheila and annoy her".

"She would not discuss all her problems, although whenever she visited her father, she would return even more depressed because of her stepmother.  Apparently the stepmother would preach to her about her boyfriends and how it was wrong that she should make love with them and Sheila should remember GOD.  She gradually detoriated until about three weeks before her first breakdown, Nicholas fell out of a taxi when she was returning from her parents.  She blamed herself for this because she was not concentrating on what the children were doing only on Mother's religious rantings".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=216

"Whilst I was there she telephoned Tara, a close friend.  She was apologising to Tara for a Religious book that her step mother had dropped off at Tara's house a couple of days previously".

"She kept talking about the Devil and God, and stated that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her stepmother said he in fact loved her".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=218

"Had it just been her Stepmother who had been killed I could accept it as she disliked her intensely but to think she has killed her father and children is difficult to comprehend".

CC's Letter Intended For NB

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232

"I will not allow her to f..k up the minds of my children in the way I suspect she has your daughters.  I am sorry to be so blunt but that is restrained compared to how I really feel".

Excerpt From Claire Powell's book

Sheila made it clear to her friends that her precarious state of her personal equilibrium stemmed largely from her peculiar relationship with June.  She was morbidly sensitive to any hint of disapproval from her mother.  It was a theme she reverted to constantly.  'She talked about her mother and her background' said Sonja.  'She told me that she and her mother didn't get on.  Sheila told me many times that she could not talk to her mother at all, that there was no form of communication between them.  She  said her mother was never happy with her or with what she did. 

[Caroline]

DOES IT SOUND LIKE JUNE AND SC HAD THE SORT OF RELATIONSHIP WHERE THEY WOULD SHARE A BED?

Dr F's wit stats

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6191

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6193

"She said she felt as if she was caught up in a "coven of evil".  These feelings appeared to be involved with her relationship with her adoptive mother and her standards of good and evil".

"She did see that Mrs Bamber was a threat to her, and did not want to visit the BAMBERS at their farm in Essex.  Sheila felt that Mrs Bamber had been over-protective towards her and found it difficult to express warm feelings towards her".

"In hindsight I believe that Sheila would have relapsed into a state of psychosis, probably having a firmly held belief or delusion involving concepts of good and evil, and certainly paranoid, possibly involving her mother."

"Both June and Sheila suffered dillusional states of religion and Sheila's illness was influenced by her mother although I do not think the illnesses were caused by the same problem."

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6197

"I also treated Sheila's adopted mother, Mrs June BAMBER at St Andrew's Hospital, Northants.  I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed.  She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions.  This was around 1959.  She required ECT as an in-patient and made a full recover.

Farhad Emani (Freddie) wit stats:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=214

"She also had a deep dislike of her stepmother who apparently kept quoting religion at her.  This would upset Sheila and annoy her".

"She would not discuss all her problems, although whenever she visited her father, she would return even more depressed because of her stepmother.  Apparently the stepmother would preach to her about her boyfriends and how it was wrong that she should make love with them and Sheila should remember GOD.  She gradually detoriated until about three weeks before her first breakdown, Nicholas fell out of a taxi when she was returning from her parents.  She blamed herself for this because she was not concentrating on what the children were doing only on Mother's religious rantings".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=216

"Whilst I was there she telephoned Tara, a close friend.  She was apologising to Tara for a Religious book that her step mother had dropped off at Tara's house a couple of days previously".

"She kept talking about the Devil and God, and stated that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her stepmother said he in fact loved her".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=218

"Had it just been her Stepmother who had been killed I could accept it as she disliked her intensely but to think she has killed her father and children is difficult to comprehend".

CC's Letter Intended For NB

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232

"I will not allow her to f..k up the minds of my children in the way I suspect she has your daughters.  I am sorry to be so blunt but that is restrained compared to how I really feel".

Excerpt From Claire Powell's book

Sheila made it clear to her friends that her precarious state of her personal equilibrium stemmed largely from her peculiar relationship with June.  She was morbidly sensitive to any hint of disapproval from her mother.  It was a theme she reverted to constantly.  'She talked about her mother and her background' said Sonja.  'She told me that she and her mother didn't get on.  Sheila told me many times that she could not talk to her mother at all, that there was no form of communication between them.  She  said her mother was never happy with her or with what she did.

I don't think anyone suggested they were hugging all night. If they did share the same room it would have been for practical reasons. You make it sound as though they couldn't stand being in the same room and yet there she was - spending the week with her mother and had even spent the day with her.

I am sure Sheila and her mother had their issues but I am also sure that they would have cared for each other a great deal.

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't think anyone suggested they were hugging all night. If they did share the same room it would have been for practical reasons. You make it sound as though they couldn't stand being in the same room and yet there she was - spending the week with her mother and had even spent the day with her.

I am sure Sheila and her mother had their issues but I am also sure that they would have cared for each other a great deal.

What practical reasons?

I can only go on the accounts of those who knew SC personally eg her pscyhiatrist, former husband and two best friends.

[Caroline]

I thought I had answered this?

What practical reasons?

I can only go on the accounts of those who knew SC personally eg her pscyhiatrist, former husband and two best friends.

Sorry? Point me to where they were asked about Sheila sharing a room with her mother?

 

[Holly Goodhead]

Sorry? Point me to where they were asked about Sheila sharing a room with her mother?

My post started with:

"DOES IT SOUND LIKE JUNE AND SC HAD THE SORT OF RELATIONSHIP WHERE THEY WOULD SHARE A BED"?

And it was in capitals and bold too only to distinguish the question from all the quotes.  I dont usually use caps as it can give the impression of SHOUTING and I aint a shouty sort of person.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6697.msg289994#msg289994

What are the practical reasons you believe existed for June and SC to share the bed in the main bedroom?

[Caroline]

My post started with:

"DOES IT SOUND LIKE JUNE AND SC HAD THE SORT OF RELATIONSHIP WHERE THEY WOULD SHARE A BED"?

And it was in capitals and bold too only to distinguish the question from all the quotes.  I dont usually use caps as it can give the impression of SHOUTING and I aint a shouty sort of person.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6697.msg289994#msg289994

What are the practical reasons you believe existed for June and SC to share the bed in the main bedroom?

I've already answered that several times both here and on the blue forum. However, June relayed to Pam how she was worried about Sheila because she was seemingly very withdrawn.

1. PERHAPS given her condition, June (or indeed Nevill) might have suggested that she not be left alone.  Given that the twins were sleeping nearer to the main bedroom.

2.PERHAPS she wanted to stay there for easier access if they woke (perhaps they had woken over the few days of the visit).

3. PERHAPS, given that Nevill was late to bed that night (because Jeremy left him to finish the rape harvest), he suggested the swap.

There are many plausible reasons why such a swap might have occurred. The fact that they didn't always get on is neither here nor there - given that she had 'chosen' to stay with her parents for the week - this proves that they could stand being in the same room without ripping each others hair out!!

[Holly Goodhead]

I've already answered that several times both here and on the blue forum. However, June relayed to Pam how she was worried about Sheila because she was seemingly very withdrawn.

1. PERHAPS given her condition, June (or indeed Nevill) might have suggested that she not be left alone.  Given that the twins were sleeping nearer to the main bedroom.

2.PERHAPS she wanted to stay there for easier access if they woke (perhaps they had woken over the few days of the visit).

3. PERHAPS, given that Nevill was late to bed that night (because Jeremy left him to finish the rape harvest), he suggested the swap.

There are many plausible reasons why such a swap might have occurred. The fact that they didn't always get on is neither here nor there - given that she had 'chosen' to stay with her parents for the week - this proves that they could stand being in the same room without ripping each others hair out!!

Oh well thanks for going to the trouble to explain again.  You could have just linked me to your posts.  Have to do other things now but I'll read your post later and if I feel I can add to it I will 

[Caroline]

Oh well thanks for going to the trouble to explain again.  You could have just linked me to your posts.  Have to do other things now but I'll read your post later and if I feel I can add to it I will 

No problem, easier to write it out again rather than search for previous posts.

[Holly Goodhead]

No problem, easier to write it out again rather than search for previous posts.

I see also on Blue you have explained a little as to why you think NB may have been sleeping elsewhere ie none of his blood was found in the main bedroom and all casings (aside the 2 attributed to SC) were around the door:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7169.msg338491.html#msg338491

"Hi Tom, from your account I guess you don't think he did the shooting (some people think he's guilty but 'framed' with the silencer evidence)? Can I ask why you think EP would frame Jeremy when they had the case sewn up as a murder/suicide? Especially as they had to make themselves look pretty stupid and seriously incompetent in order to do so. Also, at what point did they start framing him? If there was a call from Nevill, they knew t from day one and could have proven to the relatives that Jeremy was innocent. If there was a female body in the kitchen, they knew it from day one and could have proven ........ you get the picture. So, when and why would they have decided to frame Jeremy?

Jeremy being framed drags up more questions than why Nevill wasn't targeted first BUT, I can offer a suggestion (or two). The best laid plans don't always work the way they were planned and perhaps circumstances intervened. Nevill may have awoken before Jeremy was able to get into a good enough position to shoot OR he may have been sleeping in another room (there are no casings on Nevill's side of the bed other than those used to kill Sheila, none of Nevill's blood was found in the main bedroom but there was some outside of Sheila's room - on the landing and all of the casings are located near to the main bedroom door). This may explain how Nevill managed to get passed Jeremy and down stairs."

I know DC Hammersely said in his trial testimony everything of evidential value was removed from the main bed but I dont think I've actually seen any exhibit numbers for the bedding other than June's pillow and pillow cases?

DRH/49 represents a carpet sample taken from the landing about 15" away from SC's bedroom door and approx between the door posts.  Whose blood was this?  The COA doc states 5 carpet samples were taken from the main bedroom but I can only find two exhibit numbers?  And two exhibit numbers for carpet samples taken from the landing DRH/49 and DRH/47 which are not mentioned in COA doc.  The carpet samples in the main bedroom showed June's blood only. 

Several diagrams exist showing the layout of WHF do you know if any measurements exist?  It should be possible to ascertain the length of the rifle with and without the silencer attached.  I was just wondering how easy, or difficult, it might be to move around with the rifle/silencer?  Especially on the landing?

JM states in her WS's that JB told MM where everyone was sleeping and the only problem MM encountered was having a mental blank and shooting NB 7 times in the kitchen and that a glove may have come off in the process.   No mention of NB sleeping in a different room.  Mind you I find her testimony totally unreliable anyway.