Wandering Off Topic

[Robittybob1]

The experiment was conducted with gauze pads.

Gauze pads are easier to carry around compared to a whole cadaver and additionally how long could a living person survive sealed in a double sealed plastic bag?
I only used that cite to show that cadaver odour permeates the plastic bags.

[ShiningInLuz]

Gauze pads are easier to carry around compared to a whole cadaver and additionally how long could a living person survive sealed in a double sealed plastic bag?
I only used that cite to show that cadaver odour permeates the plastic bags.

It doesn't.  That why the scent pads were inside plastic bags.

[Mr Gray]

Well the word "confirmed" makes the question tricky for it doesn't confirm anything, but probability is that if there is an alert it is an alert to whatever he was trained to find. 
For even you must agree that in the experiments where they moved cadavers after so many hours and then put the cadaver dogs to the test that the dogs were found to alert to the places where the cadavers had lain.  OK those spots where the alerts happened were unconfirmed from the forensic point of view but the experimenters knew a body had been there.

Therefore whenever a cadaver dog alerts to a spot one would have to consider it possible that a deceased body (more than 2 hours old) had lain here in the past.

so what probability that a cadaver had been in 5a and what do you base your estimate  on

[Robittybob1]

so what probability that a cadaver had been in 5a and what do you base your estimate  on

For Eddie I believe he had an efficiency of over 95%.  I think that was from his training runs  everyday Martin tested Eddie and 95% of the time he would find the sample.
Because there was no blood in the bedroom there is no confusion caused by putrefied blood.

[Robittybob1]

It doesn't.  That why the scent pads were inside plastic bags.

OK so they put the scent pads inside the sealed bags and then what?  I would say the experiment works because the odour permeates through the plastic bags.  I'm going to have to understand the whole study by the looks of it.

The result was interesting "PRELIMINARY RESULTS: The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours."

"All of the dogs used in this project have been "cross-trained", that is trained in both the discipline of finding and indicating on live human scent and also on post-mortem (cadaver) scent. *"  This is different to Eddie who was only trained to find cadaver odour.

[Robittybob1]

OK so they put the scent pads inside the sealed bags and then what? they opened the bags after that.  OK the test wasn't run using sealed bags.
But from personal experience I'd say a plastic bag would not be that effective in containing the odour of a cadaver

[ShiningInLuz]

OK so they put the scent pads inside the sealed bags and then what?  I would say the experiment works because the odour permeates through the plastic bags.  I'm going to have to understand the whole study by the looks of it.

The result was interesting "PRELIMINARY RESULTS: The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours."

"All of the dogs used in this project have been "cross-trained", that is trained in both the discipline of finding and indicating on live human scent and also on post-mortem (cadaver) scent. *"  This is different to Eddie who was only trained to find cadaver odour.

How simple does the report have to be?

The pads went into plastic bags to keep the smell in.

Then the pads came out of the bags to conduct the test.

There is nothing about the smell permeating plastic bags.

[Robittybob1]

How simple does the report have to be?

The pads went into plastic bags to keep the smell in.

Then the pads came out of the bags to conduct the test.

There is nothing about the smell permeating plastic bags.

So if you murder someone "just put them in a sealed plastic bag and you won't get caught out by cadaver dogs".  I don't think so as I'm sure the cadaver odour permeates through a plastic liner/plastic bag. 

[Mr Gray]

For Eddie I believe he had an efficiency of over 95%.  I think that was from his training runs  everyday Martin tested Eddie and 95% of the time he would find the sample.
Because there was no blood in the bedroom there is no confusion caused by putrefied blood.

Eddie has no proven track record
It's all anecdotal
Amaral claimed Eddie had solved 200 crimes
More rubbish
Eddie will find cadaver odour if it's there
But we have no idea how significant unconfirmed alerts are

[Robittybob1]

Eddie has no proven track record
It's all anecdotal
Amaral claimed Eddie had solved 200 crimes
More rubbish
Eddie will find cadaver odour if it's there
But we have no idea how significant unconfirmed alerts are

Do you realise he gets training exercises everyday?  So I'm not considering cases as Amaral did.
In each training exercise he doesn't find a cadaver but a site that has been laced with cadaver odour containing products, which is similar to having an unconfirmed alert everyday.

[Robittybob1]

Martin Grime: "My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD’s alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is ‘cadaver scent’ contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence."

[Mr Gray]

Martin Grime: "My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD’s alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is ‘cadaver scent’ contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence."

Grime says it is suggestive......not that it is

[Mr Gray]

Do you realise he gets training exercises everyday?  So I'm not considering cases as Amaral did.
In each training exercise he doesn't find a cadaver but a site that has been laced with cadaver odour containing products, which is similar to having an unconfirmed alert everyday.

anectdotal..../no scientific evidence to support an unconfirmed alert

[Alfie]

So if you murder someone "just put them in a sealed plastic bag and you won't get caught out by cadaver dogs".  I don't think so as I'm sure the cadaver odour permeates through a plastic liner/plastic bag.

According to Grime it doesn't need to be a plastic bag, a grease proof paper bag is just as effective at blocking all trace of cadaver scent.

[Robittybob1]

According to Grime it doesn't need to be a plastic bag, a grease proof paper bag is just as effective at blocking all trace of cadaver scent.

You can buy bin liners (200 litre drum sized) that would have enough capacity to hold a body but  I have never come across a large grease proof paper bag.
But my real doubt is that anything like that would really work.