Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates

[John]

In My Opinion...

The police need to charged someone for the crime as there was mounting pressure from the public at the time to charge someone over this horrendous crime..

CJ ... had good lawyers and friends...

Dr Vincent Tabak had nothing.....

With the evidence they had at the time, they acted on it.... rightly or wrongly, they charged Dr Vincent Tabak..
(IMO) they rushed to have someone in custody as they had let CJ go...

The British public were already baying for blood... there would have been uproar, if another suspect was released...

I agree they were under pressure after going after the wrong people and subjecting one in particular, Chris Jefferies, to some awful publicity.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5788.msg205702#msg205702

[jixy]

I don't think there is anything unusual about not giving a murder suspect bail. Its the norm but thankfully not for Mr Jefferies

[John]

I don't think there is anything unusual about not giving a murder suspect bail. Its the norm but thankfully not for Mr Jefferies

With foreign nationals there is always the possibility of flight risk.

[[...]]

With foreign nationals there is always the possibility of flight risk.

Agreed..... But they can always take his passport, surely  that would remedy the possibility of leaving the country.....

[jixy]

im not sure why you think he deserves such special treatment compared to others arrested and charged with murder?

[mrswah]

Special treatment?  I don't believe he has had any!!! 

I agree with Jixy that one person convicted of murder should not be treated any better than another, but the last few posts have only been about whether or not VT should serve his sentence in the UK or in Holland (his own country).  Most convicted prisoners in this country ARE serving their sentences in their own country, after all.

[mrswah]

Sorry, didn't read properly: bail has been discussed too, and, for all I know, it may well be usual for people charged with murder not to be given bail, particularly if they are thought to be dangerous.

What I don't understand though, is why VT's lawyer WAS going to make a bail application, and then didn't.

I also don't understand why he was held on remand in a Category A prison, when people on remand are normally held in their local prison or a category C one----after all, they may need to be held in prison if they are thought to be a danger to the public, but remand prisoners have not actually been convicted of anything.

[jixy]

I think expecting a murderer to be given bail is special treatment. lots of application can be made even when there is no real prospect.

As for being dangerous, I think a murder falls into that bracket don't you

[jixy]

I think you need to do some more research on just how many foreign prisoners are serving sentences in this country.

over 10,000 isn't a few even if other countries have more foreign prisoners than we do!

[[...]]

Sorry, didn't read properly: bail has been discussed too, and, for all I know, it may well be usual for people charged with murder not to be given bail, particularly if they are thought to be dangerous.

What I don't understand though, is why VT's lawyer WAS going to make a bail application, and then didn't.I also don't understand why he was held on remand in a Category A prison, when people on remand are normally held in their local prison or a category C one----after all, they may need to be held in prison if they are thought to be a danger to the public, but remand prisoners have not actually been convicted of anything.

Why a prisoner maybe held on remand:

Why has my family member/partner been remanded into custody?
A prisoner may be held in custody leading up to a trial vary for a variety of reasons. The prosecution can indicate one or more of the following as reasons a person should not be released on bail:

The individual has previous convictions for similar offences.
There is reason to believe that the individual may fail to turn up at the trial.
There is reason to believe that the individual may interfere with witnesses.
There are reasonable grounds to believe an individual would commit further offences before their trial.

Where should a  remand prisoner be held????? Normally the local prison.....

Where will my family member/partner be taken if they are remanded into custody?
Most courts will send those convicted to one specific local prison. The solicitor handling the case should be able to tell you the name of the prison to which your loved one has been taken.

http://www.offendersfamilieshelpline.org/index.php/remand-into-custody/

Well he wasn't afforded that basic privelege, Tanja was his closest family at the time in the UK
What did his Lawyer do to help his client regards staying close to a relative? Was he prevented in someway with this??

This may explain why his Lawyer had such difficulties:

t is not possible once a hearing is complete and an individual has been remanded into custody or sentenced for relatives or partners to have contact with their loved one. In the time immediately after the hearing the individual who has been remanded or sentenced will be taken to the cells in the court building and from there will be transferred to a local prison. It is often the case at court that not even solicitors are allowed to visit the prisoner directly after a hearing.

So his Lawyer wouldnt have access straight away to Dr Vincent Tabak, I dont know how long after they are at a local prison the lawyer gets access??

And the difficulities facing the Lawyer when they move him TWICE again!!!



Catergories are usually determined on this bases:

What is Categorisation?
All adult male prisoners are classified on
reception into prison and put into one of
four security categories based on the
likelihood of escape and the risk to the
public if they did escape. The categories
are:

The catergories are determined as follows:

♦ Category A: prisoners who would be
highly dangerous to the public, police or
national security if they were to escape.
♦ Category B: prisoners for whom the
highest security conditions are not
necessary, but for whom escape needs
to be made very difficult.
♦ Category C: prisoners who cannot be
trusted in open conditions but who are
unlikely to make a determined escape
attempt.
♦ Category D: open conditions, prisoners
who can be trusted not to try and
escape.

http://www.prisonadvice.org.uk/system/files/public/Categorisation.pdf

The question is.... Are Remand prisoners usually catergorised?

Are remand prisoners categorized?
Unless they meet the criteria of category A,
remand prisoners are not categorized.
They are usually treated as category B.
Unconvicted women and young people will
be held in a closed prison.

This is an interesting sentence made by the above document:

How does the security category affect
the prisoner’s sentence?
The category determines where a prisoner
will serve their sentence as prisons are
usually designated as category A, B, C, or D
and they will be placed in a prison
appropriate to their category. If they
request a transfer, they can only be
transferred to a prison of the correct
category. The lower the category, the
more freedom a prisoner will be allowed.
In category D Prisons (also known as open
prisons) they may leave the premises for
work, education or town visits. Security
will be much tighter in category A prisons,
with visitors and mail subject to more
stringent checks.

So now we need to follow what happens next:

He appears at Bristol crown court on the court on Monday 24th January 2011

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/24/vincent-tabak-court-joanna-yeates-murder-charge

On the 26th January, he was transfered to a prison in Gloucester??? (That ones news to me)

THE man accused of murdering Jo Yeates was moved to a different prison
yesterday amid fears for his safety.

Vincent Tabak had spent less than 24 hours in jail in Bristol before the
30-mile switch to Gloucester.

HMP Gloucester   
Address   :   Barrack Square,
    :   Gloucester
    :   GL1 2JN  map of location
    :   England

Gloucester Prison is a catergory B: Prison,

https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/330342/tabak-jail-switch-over-attack-fears/



Then 24 hours later he was moved again to Long Lartin Prison..... why??

https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/332161/jo-suspect-on-suicide-watch-in-tough-jail/

He was in Long Lartin by the 27th January: 

Address:
South Littleton
Evesham
Worcestershire
WR11 8TZ

You have to make an application to have a prisoner moved, so why move him twice??? In such a short space of time!!!!

Category A prisoners are routinely moved from time to time for security reasons
For their own safety if they are being bullied
If their main visitor has a medical problem making visits impossible.
Does a prisoner have a legal right to be transferred to a different prison if they wish?

What determines the catergorization of a prisoner????

Are remand prisoners awaiting trial categorised?
Prisoners held on remand awaiting trial are not normally categorised but would generally be treated as category B. However, if the Prisoner is assessed as a category A prisoner, they will be held in this way.

Can a Prisoner on remand awaiting trial be transferred?
A prisoner on remand is not usually transferred. They are usually held in the local prison nearest the court they will appear.

What special rightss do remand prisoners have:

Remand Prisoners have the following rights:

Access to reasonable facilities to seek release on bail and to prepare for trial.
The right to preserve their home and job i.e. to make arrangements in case they should be convicted.
The right to maintain contact with family and friends.

http://www.jigsawvisitorscentre.org.uk/remand-prisoners/

Why may a prisoner be transferred?

Their security category has changed

So when did this change??? If his original remand was in a catergory B prison... why the change???
Nothing had happened within 24/48 hours...

But by moving him he suddenly doesn't appear in person for his next COURT appearance...

Can a prisoner request a transfer?

The prisoner can request a transfer via the prison request system, or on a form provided by the prison service.
It is usual for transfer requests not to be considered unless the prisoner has served a few months at their current facility.
The prisoner should expect to receive a response within 7 days of application.

http://www.inbrief.co.uk/prison-law/transferring-prisons/

Dr Vincent Tabak didn't request a transfer... someone went to great lengths to transfer him Twice in 24/48 hours of his court appearance..

Dr Vincent Tabak was no more dangerous from his initaial court apperance to his last court appearance..

It has taken FOUR days from his first court appearance :

(1)...24th Jan 2011.. appears in Bristol crown court

(2)  26th Jan 2011.. moved to Gloucester Prison

(3)  27th January... moved to Long Lartin

(4) 31st January.. .. appears for preliminary hearing?? via video link WITHOUT his solicitor who is at Bristol Crown court.. ( The same day Jo,s body is released to the family) (what happened to applying for BAIL????)

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/event/vincent-tabak-preliminary-hearing-for-the-murder-of-joanna-yeates-108632844#vincent-tabaks-defence-lawyer-paul-cook-leaves-bristol-crown-court-a-picture-id108634508
{quote] But at the prelim, the prosecution only has to show probable cause that the accused committed the charged crime(s). In other words, enough evidence to justify a belief that a crime occurred and the defendant committed it.[/quote]

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/the-difference-between-preliminary-hearing-trial.html
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/31/joanna-yeates-funeral-vincent-tabak


Why a video link??

How much contact had his Lawyer had in these 4 days??


I cannot find when his Lawyer changed...
but theres NO reference for this until May 2011(have done range of dates)

He then confessed to the chaplain 8 days later:

It makes you wonder what pressures he was put under to make this apparent confession??

How much REAL time did he have with his original Lawyer?
When did COOK stop representing him???
When did CLEGG take over??

These question can give reason as to why someone may plead guilty to a crime they did not commit!!

[[...]]

And fundimentally... I can't find where the application for bail was made?

[jixy]

Not sure what point you are trying to make but you do highlight he was moved and there were fears for his safety. That has to be considered a good thing if he was in danger?

[PaultheRed]

Where does it state he (VT) was Cat A ? 
Just because he was in a Cat A prison doesn't mean he was Cat himself sometimes Cat B prisoners are housed in Cat A prisons .

[[...]]

Why was no application for bail made in the preliminary hearing??

Dr Vincent Tabak was presumably expecting this... (any prisoner would want bail)

The procesution stated at the hearing tha:

Prosecutor Nigel Lickley QC said he would serve papers on the defence by 1 April. There would then be a plea and case management hearing on 4 May. The judge said he had pencilled in a trial date for 4 October at Bristol.

The judge told Tabak that his counsel would have a chance to speak to him later today and see him this week. He said today's hearing was designed to make sure the trial process worked efficiently.

Treacy added that Tabak's next appearance would be on 4 May, by which time papers would be served that would make it possible for him to see "in detail" the case against him.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/31/body-of-joanna-yeates-released

So.... Application for bail anyone????????

So from the 31st January to the 4th of May 2011 NO APPLICATION FOR BAIL was made????

Doesn't that strike you as odd??


Surely an application would be made whether or not it was denied??
A Foreign National in a foreign prison not having an application for bail made....???

Its not even that an application for bail  was ever actually made (IMO)as far as I can see....

Surely this would have been the first course taken!!!!!!

So from the time of his arrest to WHEN he appeared changing his plea.... NO application for bail was ever made (IMO)..

I cannot see why an application was not made as the defence did not recieve the prosecution papaers at this time..
And surely in his clients best interest an application for bail should have been made..
Dr Vincent Tabak was of good character and had no previous convictions...
And wasn't a threat to National sercurity..


So why no application???
Does this not seem odd??????

yes... i've edited it: because.....

What is bail?

Bail is an important pre-trial matter. When deciding whether bail should be granted the courts will ask themselves whether the defendant, the person on trial, shall be allowed back into the public whilst awaiting trial or shall be remanded in custody until the trial date. 

http://www.inbrief.co.uk/court-proceedings/bail/


PRE TRAIL..... why no Bail hearing???????????

[jixy]

I think when you look at presumption with crimes like rape and murder you may understand why he didn't get bail and no one asked for or was expecting it