Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?

[Eleanor]

It was indeed a horror story.  I even paused to consider some of this rubbish, until I realised that most of it had inverted commas, and other supposed caveats.
It just never entered my head initially that newspapers could be so devious and so very dishonest.  Vile, in fact.

However, that's what got me going in the end.  And when I ceased to be the the thoroughly nice idiot that I had been long known for.

I will probably never quite forgive myself for that three months during which I believed that The McCanns were culpable, on nothing more than innuendo and downright lies.

Logic has taught me better since.

[Robittybob1]

Let me think.  What was the GNR response process in 2007?  Conduct an initial investigation to verify basic facts, then if it looked like an incident outside their sphere of expertise, escalate it to the PJ?

Wasn't that what the GNR did?

Kindly explain what the GNR 'kidnapping response' was in 2007.  I have never heard of that one before.

What I am saying is a type of role playing.  The play involves the GNR.  The author of the play assumes rightly or wrongly that the GNR have sets of procedures to follow in different situations.
Would you know if the GNR have a different response plan to a kidnapping as opposed to a wandering child? 
If they don't there is a problem.

If they are always going to respond to a missing child as if it has wandered off and fallen asleep under a tree somewhere, we have a problem for they will be behind in the potential abduction cases.

It appears (IMO) in the latest case their response was a bit more proactive toward a possible abduction even though on the surface it was 100% a wandering off scenario.

[Mr Gray]

What I am saying is a type role play.  The play involves the GNR.  The author of the play assumes rightly or wrongly that the GNR have sets of procedures to follow in different situations.
Would you know if the GNR have a different response plan to a kidnapping as opposed to a wandering child? 
If they don't there is a problem.

If they are always going to respond to a missing child as if it has wandered off and fallen asleep under a tree somewhere, we have a problem for they will be behind in the potential abduction cases.

It appears in the latest case their response was a bit more proactive toward a possible abduction even though on the surface it was 100% a wandering off scenario.

What do you mean by 100%.   Is this your opinion

We need the rules to be clear

[Robittybob1]

I think we've been through this before, Faith. Why didn't Amaral organise a reconstruction while the group was there? It can hardly be because he didn't want the McCanns to know he suspected them when the "badly told story" article appeared on 5 May.

"Esta é uma história muito mal contada"

por José Manuel Oliveira e Paula Martinheira
05 maio 2007

Uma criança inglesa desapareceu do quarto de hotel onde dormia com os irmãos mais novos, na Praia da Luz, no Algarve, enquanto os pais jantavam num restaurante do aldeamento. Autoridades e populares lançaram-se em megaoperação de busca, já alargada a Espanha.

O desaparecimento de Madeleine McCann, a criança inglesa de três anos que se encontrava de férias em Lagos, "é uma história muito mal contada", confidenciou ao DN fonte da Polícia Judiciária de Portimão. A afirmação reflecte as dúvidas das autoridades face aos depoimentos "confusos" expressos ontem pelas testemunhas ao longo de todo o dia.

(...)

http://www.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx?content_id=977892&especial=Caso%20Maddie&seccao=SOCIEDADE

Is that right by the 5th of May the PJ were leaking that the McCanns were telling a badly told story.  Previously I have pointed out the influence Silvia Batista had on this view.  (FACT) She was right inside the McCann camp listening to the conversations and doing the first translations of those "badly told stories".  Were they that bad or were they just painted bad for some reason?

[Carana]

What I am saying is a type role play.  The play involves the GNR.  The author of the play assumes rightly or wrongly that the GNR have sets of procedures to follow in different situations.
Would you know if the GNR have a different response plan to a kidnapping as opposed to a wandering child? 
If they don't there is a problem.

If they are always going to respond to a missing child as if it has wandered off and fallen asleep under a tree somewhere, we have a problem for they will be behind in the potential abduction cases.

It appears in the latest case their response was a bit more proactive toward a possible abduction even though on the surface it was 100% a wandering off scenario.

The GNR wouldn't handle a kidnapping. Any serious crime goes to the PJ.

The GNR were the first responders and organised searches. The PJ handled the rest.

And the PJ didn't have a crime scene manual until May 2009.

Today, at the Polícia Judiciária’s School, in Lisbon, a crime scene practises manual is launched, establishing rules on how to enter, how to mark the investigators’ passage, how to photograph and/or draw a crime scene, among other procedures. “The potentialities in the collection of a certain type of residues are incommensurably different today from what they were years ago”, said Carlos Farinha, according to whom “nowadays the level of collection of elements on location is scarily superior”. Hence, he adds, the need to “reorganise and think about the manner to proceed on a crime scene”.


source: Diário de Notícias, 20.05.2009

And from Harrison's report:

GNR Searches Conducted within 7 days of Madeleine McCann's Disappearance.

On Saturday 21.07.2007 I met with Major Luis Seqeuira, GNR Portimao who was the search coordinator for all search activity that was under taken in the physical search for Madeleine McCann.
Major Seqeuira has not benefited from any formal training or accreditation in the management of searching for missing persons. The search officers with the exception of the search and rescue team dispatched from Lisbon had not benefited from any formal training in search procedures. The teams available and deployed by Major Seqeuira were drawn from unit of the GNR, Civil Protection, Fire Brigade, Red Cross and Urban Police. Each team numbered
around 10 and between 80 to 100 personnel were involved in search activity.

The searches were based on a strategy of searching in "rescue and recovery mode? to locate the missing girl alive or if dead, not as a victim of crime. This search phase lasted for 7 days from the date M McCann went missing.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

[Alice Purjorick]

Have a look at the news24 article I posted after the Sanderson / Leveson bit.

How did the PT press start publishing (distorted) extracts of it by Sept 13 07?

The daily Publico said a copy of the diary had been seized during a police search of the Portuguese holiday home of the couple, who have been named as official suspects in the search for Madeleine.

Jornal de Noticias said the diary and other personal documents were now in the hands of examining magistrate Pedro Danielo dos Anjos Frias, who under Portuguese law must rule if they can be used as evidence.

We seem to have a few choices:
1) An English speaking Portuguese policeman read the diary then told what was his understanding of his translation, to a hack.
2) Before passing the diary to examining magistrate Pedro Danielo dos Anjos Frias the PJ:
a) copied the diary then passed the copy to the press leaving the press to have it translated.
b) had the diary translated into Portuguese then passed the content to to the press.
3) Examining magistrate Pedro Danielo dos Anjos Frias:
a) read the diary then told what was whis understanding of his translation,to a hack.
b)had the diary translated into Portuguese then passed the content to to the press.

I would want to ask a fair few questions before coming down heads or tails on that lot.

[Robittybob1]

What do you mean by 100%.   Is this your opinion

We need the rules to be clear

"It appears to me" means it is my opinion, it is like "I think" or "the way I see it".  If that is not clear that is opinion I will try and be clearer in the future. 
Didn't you think it was just a child wandering off?  Where was the hint of abduction in the more recent case?

[Mr Gray]

It appears to me means it is my opinion, it is like I think or they way I see it.  If that is not clear that is opinion I will try and be clearer in the future. 
Didn't you think it was just a child wandering off?  Where was the hint of abduction in the more recent case?

It's ok Rob but when you are insisting I put...imo...then so should everyone else.


With the window open its quite probably an abduction....even so the McCanns would hope it wasn't....that's why Kate searched the apartment

[John]

What I couldn't make out was the continual emphasis on tracker dog searching till they had searched and area (of was it 7 km around Ocean Club?).  I could never imagine Madeleine walking this distance on her own so either someone would have needed to carry her alive or deceased over that distance.  For that reason I'm not really convinced they ever believed Madeleine had been abducted for the same search area is covered for an abductor on foot or a person on foot looking for a place to dispose of a body.

There have been instances not that long ago of even younger children walking relatively long distances.

[John]

what I found is they the PJ believed the McCanns about somethings but not others.  Like it seems the PJ believe the McCanns when they say Madeleine didn't wake up and wander yet they don't believe they weren't involved with her burial.

So in my study which has been going on for 19 months now I'm finding there is a possibility she left by the front door but possibly someone closes that door after Madeleine has got out, so Kate does not read the signs correctly.  (Normally if she had left by the front door the door would be open but it wasn't.  So she thinks she has NOT left on her own by that door.  The PJ believe that but fail to realise there could have been a visitor who closes that front door.
That visitor does not want to own up for he would be accused of her death, so we never hear about that visit.

I know someone will say that is speculation but the exact same scenario happened to someone I know.
It is an option that can't be discounted.
They have considered it "highly unlikely" but we shouldn't.

They were wrong to say it was unlikely and several very senior former British detectives agree with you.  An almost 4-year-old child is very capable of opening a door and walking out and anyone who says otherwise is deluding themself.

In fact, the only real and tangible evidence there exists in the case is the two independent trails recorded by the GNR tracker dogs just hours after Madeleine disappeared.  Trails which strongly suggest the child walked out the front door, around block 5 and back to mini reception where she crossed the road before the trail ended abruptly. This in itself is very strong evidence that a barefooted child walked out of that apartment and was lifted by someone directly opposite mini reception.  The other factor which supports this theory is that Madeleine was very well acquainted with that route having used it every morning, at times running off ahead of her parents and siblings.

[Robittybob1]

The GNR wouldn't handle a kidnapping. Any serious crime goes to the PJ.

The GNR were the first responders and organised searches. The PJ handled the rest.

And the PJ didn't have a crime scene manual until May 2009.

Today, at the Polícia Judiciária’s School, in Lisbon, a crime scene practises manual is launched, establishing rules on how to enter, how to mark the investigators’ passage, how to photograph and/or draw a crime scene, among other procedures. “The potentialities in the collection of a certain type of residues are incommensurably different today from what they were years ago”, said Carlos Farinha, according to whom “nowadays the level of collection of elements on location is scarily superior”. Hence, he adds, the need to “reorganise and think about the manner to proceed on a crime scene”.


source: Diário de Notícias, 20.05.2009

And from Harrison's report:

GNR Searches Conducted within 7 days of Madeleine McCann's Disappearance.

On Saturday 21.07.2007 I met with Major Luis Seqeuira, GNR Portimao who was the search coordinator for all search activity that was under taken in the physical search for Madeleine McCann.
Major Seqeuira has not benefited from any formal training or accreditation in the management of searching for missing persons. The search officers with the exception of the search and rescue team dispatched from Lisbon had not benefited from any formal training in search procedures. The teams available and deployed by Major Seqeuira were drawn from unit of the GNR, Civil Protection, Fire Brigade, Red Cross and Urban Police. Each team numbered
around 10 and between 80 to 100 personnel were involved in search activity.

The searches were based on a strategy of searching in "rescue and recovery mode? to locate the missing girl alive or if dead, not as a victim of crime. This search phase lasted for 7 days from the date M McCann went missing.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

I know there was a time even our organisation went through a process of writing up procedures.  There were procedures before hand but they may not have been written up in the detail that followed. 
You say:
"The GNR wouldn't handle a kidnapping. Any serious crime goes to the PJ.
The GNR were the first responders and organised searches. The PJ handled the rest." 

So at some stage they call in the PJ, hours too late if it is an abduction case.  That is why I asked about their initial response, was it always going to be the same.
 

[Mr Gray]

They were wrong to say it was unlikely and several very senior former British detectives agree with you.  An almost 4-year-old child is very capable of opening a door and walking out and anyone who says otherwise is deluding themself.

The senior detectives don't have all the evidence...it would be interesting to know why the PJ rated woke and wandered highly unlikely...they must have a reason...imo

[faithlilly]

I think we've been through this before, Faith. Why didn't Amaral organise a reconstruction while the group was there? It can hardly be because he didn't want the McCanns to know he suspected them when the "badly told story" article appeared on 5 May.

"Esta é uma história muito mal contada"

por José Manuel Oliveira e Paula Martinheira
05 maio 2007

Uma criança inglesa desapareceu do quarto de hotel onde dormia com os irmãos mais novos, na Praia da Luz, no Algarve, enquanto os pais jantavam num restaurante do aldeamento. Autoridades e populares lançaram-se em megaoperação de busca, já alargada a Espanha.

O desaparecimento de Madeleine McCann, a criança inglesa de três anos que se encontrava de férias em Lagos, "é uma história muito mal contada", confidenciou ao DN fonte da Polícia Judiciária de Portimão. A afirmação reflecte as dúvidas das autoridades face aos depoimentos "confusos" expressos ontem pelas testemunhas ao longo de todo o dia.

(...)

http://www.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx?content_id=977892&especial=Caso%20Maddie&seccao=SOCIEDADE

I think the more pressing question is why did Rebelo feel it necessary to request the reconstitution and requestioning if he thought the McCanns and their friends had played no part in Madeleine's disappearance?

[Carana]

The daily Publico said a copy of the diary had been seized during a police search of the Portuguese holiday home of the couple, who have been named as official suspects in the search for Madeleine.

Jornal de Noticias said the diary and other personal documents were now in the hands of examining magistrate Pedro Danielo dos Anjos Frias, who under Portuguese law must rule if they can be used as evidence.

We seem to have a few choices:
1) An English speaking Portuguese policeman read the diary then told what was his understanding of his translation, to a hack.
2) Before passing the diary to examining magistrate Pedro Danielo dos Anjos Frias the PJ:
a) copied the diary then passed the copy to the press leaving the press to have it translated.
b) had the diary translated into Portuguese then passed the content to to the press.
3) Examining magistrate Pedro Danielo dos Anjos Frias:
a) read the diary then told what was whis understanding of his translation,to a hack.
b)had the diary translated into Portuguese then passed the content to to the press.

I would want to ask a fair few questions before coming down heads or tails on that lot.

From some UK articles (I'm hunting for confirmation from a PT paper, but seemingly the PJ files weren't handed over until either late 11 or 12 September (Several UK papers mention 4,000 files in 10 ring-binders - which may or may not be accurate, but not really the sort of thing they'd necessarily invent.

The diary was taken from the villa on 2 August.

I was about to suggest a 3rd possibility, as well, namely whoever translated it. The PJ were hoping it would be retroactively approved as an official document, so someone obviously translated it. Again, there's no way of knowing whether that was a PJ officer, or whether it was farmed out. It might be worth checking if there is a translation bill in the files that it could correspond to.

[Robittybob1]

They were wrong to say it was unlikely and several very senior former British detectives agree with you.  An almost 4-year-old child is very capable of opening a door and walking out and anyone who says otherwise is deluding themself.

In fact, the only real and tangible evidence there exists in the case is the two independent trails recorded by the GNR tracker dogs just hours after Madeleine disappeared.  Trails which strongly suggest the child walked out the front door, around block 5 and back to mini reception where she crossed the road before the trail ended abruptly. This in itself is very string evidence that a barefooted child walked out of that apartment and was lifted by someone directly opposite mini reception.  The other factor which supports this theory is that Madeleine was very well acquainted with that route having used it every morning, at times running off ahead of her parents and siblings.

It is Kate finding the front door closed that confuses her.  I would say they know Madeleine was capable of opening the front door on her own, but she was incapable of closing it.  It is the thought that someone else closed that door after Madeleine had exited that door  that is like a "break through" in the case.

This "mystery person" is closing that door not for criminal purposes but more for concern for the twins (Theory).  For if the front door is left wide open they too could have wandered off had the twins woken up (fact).
Gerry does say something about that, I can't remember the exact words but it was something like "it could have been worse, all three kids could have gone" (fact).  IMO No kidnapper was going to take 3 kids at once. So was he talking about kidnapping?  No IMO he was talking about woke and wandered, and he is thankful someone closed the door.