Abduction

[Carana]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg   lower right photo shows end view of the latch bolt.  It all depends whether the two pieces move together or not.

I still didn't get what you meant by bevelled but if it is the full length of the door we must be talking about different things.

Yes, I think we're talking about different things. I was talking about the door structure, and you about the triangular mechanism.

I just had another look at mine.

Looking yet again at my door mechanism. From one angle, there's a triangular bit, with a flush rectangular bit just behind it. From another angle, it looks as if the rectangular bit behind the triangular bit sticks out, but it doesn't in reality.

[Robittybob1]

I'm sure it must happen Robitty, just I've never heard of it.  Any woke and wandered incident I've read or heard of has ended with the safe recovery of the child.

OK I put these terms into Googla and got pages of results: wandering + child + hit + by + vehicle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue

[jassi]

Yes, I think we're talking about different things. I was talking about the door structure, and you about the triangular mechanism.

I just had another look at mine.

Looking yet again at my door mechanism. From one angle, there's a triangular bit, with a flush rectangular bit just behind it. From another angle, it looks as if the rectangular bit behind the triangular bit sticks out, but it doesn't in reality.

When you push the triangular piece into the lock does the rectangular bit move with it or remain in place?
If the latter you should not be able to close the door properly from outside  without a key

[Brietta]

OK I put these terms into Googla and got pages of results: wandering + child + hit + by + vehicle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue

I remember that case.  It was a very shocking video.  But Wang Yue was run over in the afternoon and not as a child who had wakened and wandered into the night.

[Robittybob1]

I remember that case.  It was a very shocking video.  But Wang Yue was run over in the afternoon and not as a child who had wakened and wandered into the night.

I gave up looking through the hundreds of results.

[Alice Purjorick]

When you push the triangular piece into the lock does the rectangular bit move with it or remain in place?
If the latter you should not be able to close the door properly from outside  without a key

Groundhog day!
I once posted the comics for such locks but no one believed them as the scuttlebutt has it that at 37.0909° N, 8.7591° W absolutely everything different following no known standard ......

I am put more in mind of Laputa really. [Mods note Dean Swift style not Spanish]

[Robittybob1]

Groundhog day!
I once posted the comics for such locks but no one believed them as the scuttlebutt has it that at 37.0909° N, 8.7591° W absolutely everything different following no known standard ......

I am put more in mind of Laputa really. [Mods note Dean Swift style not Spanish]

Have you heard of the term "modification".  If you look through the previous occupants of 5A you will see the tenants had troubles with the locking of the front door.  It seemed to suggest the possibility that the lock had been altered from the standard.
Amaral and his security adviser Alexandre Simas described the reason why the lock could not be opened with a card.  It was not the standard reason.   I propose the fact that Mr Simas describes the non standard method of security being used in that apartment confirms that the lock had been modified.
Here is the transcript:
https://joana-morais.blogspot.co.nz/2009/04/maddie-truth-of-lie-documentary.html

"43.28 – With the help from one of the major experts from the Scientific Police, who worked for the Polícia Judiciária, Alexandre Simas, Gonçalo Amaral intends to prove, first, that it was impossible for the child to be abducted, starting by demonstrating that the indications prove that the apartment’s window and door were not forced.

43.47 - How does one open a door like this, without the key?

Alexandre Simas
Expert (Former Polícia Judiciária)

43.51 – This type of apartment door, normally there are only three possibilities: to extract the lock’s cannon, which didn’t happen, or it would have been reported; a false key, a copy or one that was used without permission; or using a malleable material, as long as it’s not locked, it’s introduced, and it makes the lock go back inside. But when it goes in, even if it did, it would hit this screw. If it hits the screw, no matter how much I force it, it doesn’t jump to open the lock for me.

44.33 – If the door wasn’t opened without a key, the window doesn’t bear any traces of having been forced, either."

[Robittybob1]

it would hit this screw. If it hits the screw, no matter how much I force it, it doesn’t jump to open the lock for me.  Those rim locks were not designed to depend on a rightly positioned screw to yield security from being picked with a malleable card. 

[Brietta]

Have you heard of the term "modification".  If you look through the previous occupants of 5A you will see the tenants had troubles with the locking of the front door.  It seemed to suggest the possibility that the lock had been altered from the standard.
Amaral and his security adviser Alexandre Simas described the reason why the lock could not be opened with a card.  It was not the standard reason.   I propose the fact that Mr Simas describes the non standard method of security being used in that apartment confirms that the lock had been modified.
Here is the transcript:
https://joana-morais.blogspot.co.nz/2009/04/maddie-truth-of-lie-documentary.html

"43.28 – With the help from one of the major experts from the Scientific Police, who worked for the Polícia Judiciária, Alexandre Simas, Gonçalo Amaral intends to prove, first, that it was impossible for the child to be abducted, starting by demonstrating that the indications prove that the apartment’s window and door were not forced.

43.47 - How does one open a door like this, without the key?

Alexandre Simas
Expert (Former Polícia Judiciária)

43.51 – This type of apartment door, normally there are only three possibilities: to extract the lock’s cannon, which didn’t happen, or it would have been reported; a false key, a copy or one that was used without permission; or using a malleable material, as long as it’s not locked, it’s introduced, and it makes the lock go back inside. But when it goes in, even if it did, it would hit this screw. If it hits the screw, no matter how much I force it, it doesn’t jump to open the lock for me.

44.33 – If the door wasn’t opened without a key, the window doesn’t bear any traces of having been forced, either."

Why so anxious not to consider the possibility that a key had been used?

[Robittybob1]

Why so anxious not to consider the possibility that a key had been used?

If you have a key it would make it more of an inside job.  Where do you get a key from in a hurry?  And the key was a special type with two sets of pins  (hard to get).
Who would have a key?

[jassi]

Have PJ or OG ever suggested that a key was used?

[Robittybob1]

Have PJ or OG ever suggested that a key was used?

From what Alexandre Simas says you can't rule out the use of a key, but if a key was used it really points the finger back to an OC employee or former OC employee and that had been considered to a specific person   except his alibi stacked up.  "a 40-year-old heroin addict named Euclides “Toni” Monteiro from Cape Verde, who was fired by the Ocean Club"  https://www.thedailybeast.com/portuguese-police-name-dead-addict-as-madeleine-mccann-suspect

[Carana]

No one has said it's impossible but the final report from the pj said it's highly unlikely which makes me think they have good reason to say that

True, but the final phase of the initial investigation was a race against time and - IMO - was tying up loose ends as to whether the McCanns should be charged or not.

PT reopened the case, but hasn't said much about it aside from a rare public statement that the McCanns weren't suspects.

I could be wrong, but logic tells me that both the UK and PT are interested in smellyman.

At the end of the day, there may be no connection, but at least the other families may get some closure.

[Robittybob1]

True, but the final phase of the initial investigation was a race against time and - IMO - was tying up loose ends as to whether the McCanns should be charged or not.

PT reopened the case, but hasn't said much about it aside from a rare public statement that the McCanns weren't suspects.

I could be wrong, but logic tells me that both the UK and PT are interested in smellyman.

At the end of the day, there may be no connection, but at least the other families may get some closure.

As I understand it Smelly man had a history of entering people's apartments.

[sadie]

Why so anxious not to consider the possibility that a key had been used?

Exactly

why is everyone so anxious to disallow the use of a key on the front door?

That front door in its recess was absolutely private.  No one passed it.  No-one could see it, because it was so deeply recessed and so damned dark there that i wonder that even the apartment tenants liked to go in via that entrance after dark.

So easy to obtain a key from various staff members, take a copy and cast ones own key .... and what about the set of keys that allegedly were 'lost' by one member of maintenance staff?


It is almost as though there is a trend to take the eye of any interested party off the Very obvious point of entry (imo)  .... and the very obvious way out too.

Open with a key, leave the key in the lock and upon departing pull the doot to, usingt the key as a puller.

Hey ho, NO fingerprints, quick and a near silent job.   In and out in a flash, and Tannerman coming from the right direction


The front door was used IMO

AIMO