Where were Jez and Gerry standing when they did their talking? Ideas solutions

[sadie]

10th of May Gerry states "----- After going through the side gate, and while on his way to the secondary reception entrance, less than 10 metres from the gate, he saw JEZ coming up the street on the opposite pavement bring with him a baby carriage with his youngest child. He crossed the road in JEZ's direction who would come up on the right-hand side [when viewed] from the ascending direction,"

That statement does make it sound as if Gerry was heading to the secondary reception.  But this is one of those twice translated statements.  But it still reads very very much like  Gerry is walking downhill and Jez is coming uphill.
Maybe Gerry does something in between "going through the side gate", and "while on his way to the secondary reception entrance"? Did Gerry check something out?  Did he take several paces up hill before he sees Jez?  He is checking the kids and the door had moved inside for no reason, he might have been a little on edge, we don't know how Gerry was really feeling at the time.  I think I'd be wondering if there were people hanging around my kids.
I noticed the other day there is a little step in the exterior wall of the apartment.  Did Gerry go and check that no one was hiding behind the wall?


For how can he be uphill of the gate, as per the agreed timeline, if he only walked downhill after leaving the gate?

1.  IMO, his stratement is very clear  "After going through the side gate, and while on his way to the secondary reception entrance, less than 10 metres from the gate, he saw JEZ coming up the street on the opposite pavement" .  The alleyway is less than 10 metres from the gate.  It all ties up with the chat being by the alleyway.

Let's not forget that the street lighting wasn't very good, so altho he would likely see a man with a pushchair, he probably wouldn't be able to see who it was until quite close.


2.  He wasn't uphill of the gate, Rob.  He was downhill of it en-route to the Tapas Secondary Reception


3.  Gerry doesn't strike me as the paranoid type.  I cant see him going uphill to check behind that part of the building that juts out a bit into the pavement, can you?

[sadie]

Most floor plans of the apartment just draw it as a rectangle and don't show the potential hiding place along the foot path. as in this one

That plan is so wrong in at least three ways

1)  It shows the front of 5a as being straight.  It isn't, it has a deep step back from the main line of the building as it reaches the front door area and kitchen.

2)  It fails to show the balcony area outside the parents bedroom.  This is in line with outside of the steps and was IMO in darkness, because the building blocked the light from the stairs and from this bedroom balcony

3)  The step in the building that you have highlighted is not shown either.

BAD !!

[sadie]

Plot it on what?  I don't know how to do graphics like that?  Good idea though.
I'm convinced now Jez was downhill from Gerry to start with, but they still end up uphill of the gate when Jez bumps into Gerry.

Nah    Soz Rob

Too much in various videos (2), Jezes diagram and statements, Gerrys and Jesez main one, to disprove that.  And then there is Amaral who shows where it happened .... on the kerb in the alleyway area.

[sadie]

I think Kate would have looked for other clues.  If Madeleine had moved it did she move anything else to confirm it?
There seems to be a hidden reason that we are not party to.  Why was Matt's check not enough.  Why was it so important to see that Madeleine in particular was OK?  Why did the moved door not set off intruder alarm bells?

Was there some reason he walks uphill when he meets up with Jez even though he was supposedly heading in the other direction?

He did not walk uphill Rob.   That is a myth of your own making.  His statement is very clear and there is nothing about his going uphill.  He was less than 10 metres from the gate going downhill towards the Tapas Reception, when he spotted Jez on the other side of the road going uphill   

... and he thinks that he crossed the road to speak to him.  That is entirely plausible and they probably removed themselves from danger, to the western pavement vy the alleyway,  when a vehicle appeared

AIMO

[Robittybob1]

He did not walk uphill Rob.   That is a myth of your own making.  His statement is very clear and there is nothing about his going uphill.  He was less than 10 metres from the gate going downhill towards the Tapas Reception, when he spotted Jez on the other side of the road going uphill   

... and he thinks that he crossed the road to speak to him.  That is entirely plausible and they probably removed themselves from danger, to the western pavement vy the alleyway,  when a vehicle appeared

AIMO

So if you measure from where you think they met, how about telling me how far from Rua Dr. Augustino da Silva that was?   At that distance would a person be able to be recognised if they were on the top road?

[sadie]

Does anyone else confirm what Sadie says here?  Was there a bit cut out of the video?  https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY

Please note, I have deleted my post, because i cant check it, the task is too forbidding for me atm.  However, it is my belief that there are certainly dangers from a copied Official Document.

Please tell me if I am wrong, but it is my belief that if one makes a copy, one can change its content at a future date if required. 

That is not to say that DonnyDarko would do such a thing, altho I do wonder why he made the copy in the first place, when there was an original.

I have waded thru and found the original in my own files.  Why has it been blanked off the internet, I wonder ? 


The OFFICIAL Madeleine Mccann - Reconstruction - Cutting Edge - Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkc3C6csaHI

Please feel free to go thru and check it off against the DonnyDarko video

[Robittybob1]

There is no way this statement could be true if this was where they were standing.
Jez Wilkins: "I would say that when I spoke with Gerry it was possible to recognize someone I knew who was passing on foot at the crossing at the top of the hill or to describe approximately someone unknown from that distance."    Start the video at https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=626 and see how far away people look in the background.

[Robittybob1]

1.  IMO, his stratement is very clear  "After going through the side gate, and while on his way to the secondary reception entrance, less than 10 metres from the gate, he saw JEZ coming up the street on the opposite pavement" .  The alleyway is less than 10 metres from the gate.  It all ties up with the chat being by the alleyway.

Let's not forget that the street lighting wasn't very good, so altho he would likely see a man with a pushchair, he probably wouldn't be able to see who it was until quite close.


2.  He wasn't uphill of the gate, Rob.  He was downhill of it en-route to the Tapas Secondary Reception


3.  Gerry doesn't strike me as the paranoid type.  I cant see him going uphill to check behind that part of the building that juts out a bit into the pavement, can you?

I appreciate what you say but the agreed timeline clearly states uphill of the gate.  So it is possible they made a complete blunder and it should of said downhill but is that likely when two of them have to agree?

[Robittybob1]

Nah    Soz Rob

Too much in various videos (2), Jezes diagram and statements, Gerrys and Jesez main one, to disprove that.  And then there is Amaral who shows where it happened .... on the kerb in the alleyway area.

Amaral wasn't there. 

[Robittybob1]

He did not walk uphill Rob.   That is a myth of your own making.  His statement is very clear and there is nothing about his going uphill.  He was less than 10 metres from the gate going downhill towards the Tapas Reception, when he spotted Jez on the other side of the road going uphill   

... and he thinks that he crossed the road to speak to him.  That is entirely plausible and they probably removed themselves from danger, to the western pavement vy the alleyway,  when a vehicle appeared

AIMO

Explain the joint timeline statement then Sadie?  Explain how Jez thinks he could recognised someone on the top road from that distance?

[Robittybob1]

https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=663  You can see the recess in the roadside wall.  It is definitely large enough for someone to hide behind. 

[G-Unit]

He did not walk uphill Rob.   That is a myth of your own making.  His statement is very clear and there is nothing about his going uphill.  He was less than 10 metres from the gate going downhill towards the Tapas Reception, when he spotted Jez on the other side of the road going uphill   

... and he thinks that he crossed the road to speak to him.  That is entirely plausible and they probably removed themselves from danger, to the western pavement vy the alleyway,  when a vehicle appeared

AIMO

We know that Gerry didn't cross the road because it was Jez who crossed the road. Your 'vehicle' is a myth in my opinion.

If Gerry and Jez stopped to speak north of the gate that makes sense if Gerry used the car park door as he said he did.

[Robittybob1]

Jane is pointing out it was 5-6 meters beyond the indentation see is saying she saw the man.  From that point where she making that claim it is approximately 12 meters to the footpath of the top road.

We know that Gerry didn't cross the road because it was Jez who crossed the road. Your 'vehicle' is a myth in my opinion.

If Gerry and Jez stopped to speak north of the gate that makes sense if Gerry used the car park door as he said he did.

It certainly is quite hard to make sense of it all.  With the joint statement saying they talk uphill of the gate and Jez saying it was close enough to recognise someone on the top road.  I can't imagine them being more that 20 meters away to be able to do that at night.

I have been in a situation so dark it was impossible to even see the shadow of your hand in front of your face, no matter how close it was.   But here Jez is saying he could recognise someone he knew if they walked across the top street.  Obviously this is something that could be tested experimentally.  Bring him back for a re-enactment of that I'd say.

[Robittybob1]

snip.

If Gerry and Jez stopped to speak north of the gate that makes sense if Gerry used the car park door as he said he did.

  Does Gerry say he left by the  front door in his first statement? 
"In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left, and bumped into a person he had played tennis with and who had a child's push chair, he was also British, he had a short conversation with him, "returning after that to the restaurant." 

Nope nothing about what door he exits from.  But you are right had he exited from the front door and walked down hill there would be no problem with them meeting uphill of the side gate.

Maybe since he doesn't say - can we suggest either of the exits?

[G-Unit]

  Does Gerry say he left by the  front door in his first statement? 
"In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left, and bumped into a person he had played tennis with and who had a child's push chair, he was also British, he had a short conversation with him, "returning after that to the restaurant." 

Nope nothing about what door he exits from.  But you are right had he exited from the front door and walked down hill there would be no problem with them meeting uphill of the side gate.

Maybe since he doesn't say - can we suggest either of the exits?

In my opinion it's acceptable to suggest anything so long as there are facts which support our suggestions. The fact that Gerry mentions using the front door makes it acceptable to suggest that he was north of the gate when he met Jez. What we can't do imo is work out the truth because people changed their stories.

Taking all the statements in real time this, roughly, is how and when the stories changed.

On 4th May Gerry says he used the front door to check his kids.
That fits with Jane's recollection on 7-8th May that he and Jez were standing north of the garden gate to 5A.
That, however, doesn't fit with Gerry's recollection on the same dates that he exited via that gate and walked south.
So there is a contradiction in the joint timeline.

On 10th May Gerry says he crossed the road to speak to Jez after leaving 5A by the garden gate and walking towards the Tapas reception.
Jane, on 10th May, has now forgotten where she saw the men speaking, despite knowing two or three days earlier when she contributed to the joint timeline.
So we now have Gerry contradicting the other two witnesses. Jane seems to have had her memory wiped.

In November 2007 Jez is interviewed again. He again says that he crossed the road and spoke to Gerry near the gate.
So the situation now is that Gerry and Jez disagree about where they spoke, and Jane can't remember.

When the rogatory interviews take place Jane has recovered her memory, but it's changed. She is now happy to provide a sketch contradicting her first sketch and her evidence in the group timeline. The men were near the alleyway, not the gate!
Jez has also changed his evidence and agrees with Jane.
Gerry, as we know, is still on the other side of the road; all by himself, apparently.
So now Jane and Jez agree on this new location, but not Gerry.

Had these changes not occurred the site of the meeting wouldn't have been very important as Dave Edgar suggests in 'Madeleine was here'. What he and Jane both seem oblivious to, though, is that the site being defended by Jane in that video wasn't mentioned until April 2008. Before that date Jane and Jez agreed that the men spoke near the gate.