Author Topic: The Smithman e-fits  (Read 104895 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #720 on: March 05, 2018, 12:44:25 AM »
The efits weren't requested by or made to UK police therefore UK procedures were inapplicable.
Even if that was so, the fact that SY used them puts their procedures under scrutiny.  If they accept E-fits  produced under conditions that they themselves would deem unacceptable means they have double standards.
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Offline misty

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #721 on: March 05, 2018, 12:51:10 AM »
Even if that was so, the fact that SY used them puts their procedures under scrutiny.  If they accept E-fits  produced under conditions that they themselves would deem unacceptable means they have double standards.

What makes you think they accepted them? Why didn't the PJ act upon receipt of the images back in 2009?
 The efits were produced by a family who had already told the PJ they wouldn't be able to undertake such a task - but produced they were & however tenuous a lead, it needed to be pursued by a police force.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #722 on: March 05, 2018, 01:26:59 AM »
The efits weren't requested by or made to UK police therefore UK procedures were inapplicable.
The e-fits were used by SY, who should have known how far the e-fits exceeded UK standards.  So why did they use e-fits they knew to be so defective?

It sheds an insight into the capacity of OG.
What's up, old man?

Offline misty

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #723 on: March 05, 2018, 01:52:13 AM »
The e-fits were used by SY, who should have known how far the e-fits exceeded UK standards.  So why did they use e-fits they knew to be so defective?

It sheds an insight into the capacity of OG.

Would you rather SY had just ignored the efits altogether, just as the PJ may have done? The Portuguese & wider public had long since been given a description of Smithman's appearance, location & clothing both in the media & Amaral's book. That had not produced any result, so what did SY have to lose?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #724 on: March 05, 2018, 02:34:57 AM »
Would you rather SY had just ignored the efits altogether, just as the PJ may have done? The Portuguese & wider public had long since been given a description of Smithman's appearance, location & clothing both in the media & Amaral's book. That had not produced any result, so what did SY have to lose?
What did have SY to lose?  Where should I start?

Roughly speaking, absolutely everything.

There is a part of me that hopes this farce shuts down sooner, rather than later, so that I can go and talk to some of those who got flame-griddled over this nonsense, so they can have their say, without breaking the law in Portugal.
What's up, old man?

Offline Brietta

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #725 on: March 05, 2018, 02:49:53 AM »
What did have SY to lose?  Where should I start?

Roughly speaking, absolutely everything.

There is a part of me that hopes this farce shuts down sooner, rather than later, so that I can go and talk to some of those who got flame-griddled over this nonsense, so they can have their say, without breaking the law in Portugal.

In my opinion it is not possible for amateur detectives to outguess those professionals from Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria who have been working on Madeleine's case.
They are privy to all the available information and we are not.

I rather suspect though that Smithman  has hit the back burner ... unless he is the justification for the police request to the Home Office for further revenues to continue searching for Madeleine?

I rather hope that the police are allowed the funds to continue their work to its conclusion and if the right perpetrators are uncovered and 'flame grilled' whoever they are ... I will derive great satisfaction from that ... particularly if it leads to Madeleine's recovery or at the least to find out what may have happened to her.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 01:20:49 PM by Brietta »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #726 on: March 05, 2018, 03:18:08 AM »
I could do you a nice line in Bizzitt which is older still.
My version is a 1967 storyline involving Sharon and Tracey one of whom works in Rothmans Fag factory in Basildon and pulls a young squaddie from Colchester Barracks also featuring sundry didikais, smugglers, and dodgy cops from Southend on Sea. Bizzitt has his lot on the Iberian Peninsula but they were much the same in line up if not location.
Quite apposite in some respects.
The music's good too.

Or if you prefer something a little less cultured and more recent try "The Moonshiner's Daughter" by Hayseed Dixie  8(>((
you can't go wrong.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #727 on: March 05, 2018, 08:05:12 AM »
Each of the 3 links is relevant and interesting, so muito obrigado for these.  You are also correct, that the total number of pages comes to well over 100 pages, and much of it is as convoluted as only a bureaucrat can be, so it was tough going at times.

For those posters responding that Gerry was 'identified' by Martin Smith by the way he was carrying Sean when he landed in Britain, please note the topic title is 'The Smithman e-fits', not how Martin 'clocked' Gerry.

The 3 links provided by Alice have nothing to do with 'carrying arrangements', as far as I can see.  They are about police procedures, and of particular interest, how e-fits should be constructed.

The 3rd link is the shortest, the most relevant, and the easiest to read.  Any Supporter worth his or her salt should be expending the energy to read that one at least.

Once again, many thanks Alice.
https://www.surrey.police.uk/policies-and-procedures/e-fit-procedure/
1.  the witness must have seen the front of the offenders face, (face to face).
2.  If it is deemed that they can, an appointment will be made with the witness, ideally to take place within 72 hours dependant on witness availability etc.   (e-fit should be done within 3 days of the sighting.)

This section on multiple witnesses is pertinent as there were many Smith family members.
"3. Multiple Witnesses

3.1 Where practicable, a different composite operator should be used for each witness to avoid cross-contamination of the images. (All witness details can be submitted on one request form per investigation to ensure this is complied with.)

3.2 Where there has been more than one witness to a single incident, each witness must be assessed individually on their ability to provide details from which an image could be produced.

3.3 Where more than one witness is able to describe what appears to be the same individual, accurately, composite images can be produced from each witness providing:

a. Each witness provides an individual image separately from other witnesses.
b. The witnesses do not work together in producing their own composite image and are not shown other composite images during the production of their own image.

3.4 Where more than one composite image is available and it is certain that they are of the same person, the OIC may consider that it is appropriate to either use the composite images singularly or in combination through circulations and appeals for identification.

3.5 Where there are multiple witnesses it may be appropriate to only complete one image with the most appropriate witness. This will be based on discussions with the OIC and initial assessment by the E-Fit operative.

3.6 A composite image produced from witnesses working together must not be attempted, as this will amount to cross-contamination of each witness' primary memory. "

There seems to be a real recognition of the production of false memories:
"9. Witness Contamination

9.1 Where a suspect is known to police a composite image must not be produced.

9.2 A witness or victim must not be shown photographs or be exposed to any form of identification procedure before being asked to produce a composite. This is to eliminate the risk or suggestion of contamination to the primary memory that could affect recall.

9.3 Consideration may be given to showing photographs after the production of a composite image as the process may enhance the chances of identification of a suspect.

Note. See R v VIRAG (1976), R v DOUGHERTY (1973) and Codes of Practice - Code D, Annex E.

9.4 Investigating officers must remember that any composite image created in accordance with this procedure must not be shown to any witnesses prior to an identification procedure. (Formally NPIA Facial Identification Guidance 2009.)"
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline barrier

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #728 on: March 05, 2018, 09:00:41 AM »
In my opinion it is not possible for amateur detectives to outguess those professionals from Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria who have been working on Madeleine's case.
They are privy to all the available information and we are not.

I rather suspect though that Smithman  has hit the back burner ... unless he is the justification for the police request to the Home Office for further revenues to continue searching for Madeleine?

I rather hope that the police are allowed the funds to continue their work to its conclusion and if the right perpetrators are uncovered and 'flame grilled' whoever they are ... I will derive great satisfaction from that ... particularly if it leads to Madeleine's recovery or at the least to find out what may have happened to her.

Failing to produce a credible suspect after all this time is positive?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 02:09:03 PM by John »
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Lace

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #729 on: March 05, 2018, 09:07:21 AM »
What did have SY to lose?  Where should I start?

Roughly speaking, absolutely everything.

There is a part of me that hopes this farce shuts down sooner, rather than later, so that I can go and talk to some of those who got flame-griddled over this nonsense, so they can have their say, without breaking the law in Portugal.

I find that last paragraph appalling,   you are hoping a search for a missing child is shut down soon,   so that you can talk to those who were mixed up in the investigation!!    Why?   so that you will have some news for your blog,   to bring a lot of hits?

Offline Carana

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #730 on: March 05, 2018, 10:08:18 AM »
Even if that was so, the fact that SY used them puts their procedures under scrutiny.  If they accept E-fits  produced under conditions that they themselves would deem unacceptable means they have double standards.

I don't see what you mean by "double standards", Rob.

I have no idea how (I presume) Oakley organised this, nor to what extent procedures were followed. Is it possible that LP or even the Gardai did them using their officers? No idea.

In an ideal world, they would have been done following regular police procedures as soon as possible while memories were fresh, i.e.,  organised by the PJ while they were over in May 07, or even once they'd got back home by formal request, but they weren't for some reason.

Although much has been made of the fact that the two represent somewhat different "faces", which I found odd as well, initially, I now find that to be an indication that at least some procedures may have followed in the sense of eliciting the memory recall of the witnesses individually.

Something I find intriguing is that there are only two, not three, even though all three who gave statements had a recollection of at least a few details. That could be an indication that one of them didn't feel sufficiently confident about their recollection to participate in the exercise.

As far as I can work out, the purpose of publicising them in this case is to encourage potential witnesses to come forward, possibly even if it's just to give the public a visual element to anchor attention towards the Smithman time period as opposed to solely the Tannerman one.

TBH, I don't quite get what the issue is on this rather long thread.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #731 on: March 05, 2018, 10:18:58 AM »
I don't see what you mean by "double standards", Rob.

... snip ....
TBH, I don't quite get what the issue is on this rather long thread.
I think the thing that annoys me is that people praise the Smiths for coming forward, when in fact they appear only to come forward to assist clearing RM rather than to report the man carrying the child in the attempt to find out who took Madeleine.

Then SY praises  the E-fits when going by other standard operating procedures of British police the value of the e-fits must be considered worthless.  Especially so now that Gemma O'Doherty say Martin Smith never changed his mind about identifying Gerry McCann.  You can not legally draw a composite of someone already known by way of a photo or video.
The whole thing smacks of corruption IMO.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 10:21:40 AM by Robittybob1 »
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline barrier

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #732 on: March 05, 2018, 11:07:53 AM »
The whole thing smacks of corruption IMO.

With out incriminating yourself Rob,on whose part?
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Carana

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #733 on: March 05, 2018, 11:26:10 AM »
I think the thing that annoys me is that people praise the Smiths for coming forward, when in fact they appear only to come forward to assist clearing RM rather than to report the man carrying the child in the attempt to find out who took Madeleine.

Then SY praises  the E-fits when going by other standard operating procedures of British police the value of the e-fits must be considered worthless.  Especially so now that Gemma O'Doherty say Martin Smith never changed his mind about identifying Gerry McCann.  You can not legally draw a composite of someone already known by way of a photo or video.
The whole thing smacks of corruption IMO.

I'm not following, Rob.

Was the only purpose of the Oakley efits to clear / eliminate RM?

Martin had stated ages ago that he didn't think it was him as he'd have recognised him.

If they help to make any potential witnesses think back to someone they may have seen at that time in that vicinity... even if the composite doesn't ring any bells, but the approximate time does... what's worthless about it?

Aside from those spamming police phone lines to insist that it was necessarily Gerry for the "fun" of it.

Offline Carana

Re: The Smithman e-fits
« Reply #734 on: March 05, 2018, 11:29:11 AM »
I think the thing that annoys me is that people praise the Smiths for coming forward, when in fact they appear only to come forward to assist clearing RM rather than to report the man carrying the child in the attempt to find out who took Madeleine.

Then SY praises  the E-fits when going by other standard operating procedures of British police the value of the e-fits must be considered worthless.  Especially so now that Gemma O'Doherty say Martin Smith never changed his mind about identifying Gerry McCann.  You can not legally draw a composite of someone already known by way of a photo or video.
The whole thing smacks of corruption IMO.

I thought that the bone of contention was that he had 'retracted his statement'? Not quite the same thing.