Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence

[Lace]

Keela didn’t alert so not blood.

Keela alerted to blood that was present,   Eddie would alert to blood that was there but had been removed.

[Robittybob1]

‘Suggestive of cadaver contaminant’.

In the full context "My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence."  Martin Grime  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

[John]

you are missing the point. Is it confirmed that edddie detected cadaver scent in 5a...you claim it is and you are wrong

I fear this is a particularly grey area but the actual truth as far as the inspection of 5a is concerned is that Eddie did alert to substances for which he was trained.

The difficulty arises when one attempts to put a label on those substances because we know, as Sadie already pointed out, that Eddie could alert to many substances including cadaver odour.  That is why Mr Grime had to apply the caveat to the dog alerts to the effect that the alerts had no evidential reliability unless corroborated by other evidence.

[faithlilly]

Keela alerted to blood that was present,   Eddie would alert to blood that was there but had been removed.

From Grime’s profile

‘
'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human

blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic

science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement.

She will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing

and examine crime scenes for minute human blood deposits. She will accurately

locate human blood on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or

having been subjected to severa1 washing machine cycles.

In training she has accurately located minute samples of blood on property up to

thirty-six years old.’

In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any

'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities.

[Lace]

From Grime’s profile

‘
'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human

blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic

science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement.

She will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing

and examine crime scenes for minute human blood deposits. She will accurately

locate human blood on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or

having been subjected to severa1 washing machine cycles.

In training she has accurately located minute samples of blood on property up to

thirty-six years old.’

In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any

'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities.

Where does it say that Keela will alert to a scent that has been left in the location by something such as clothing that has been removed?

[Eleanor]

As most people know, salt and cold water removes blood from fabric, totally, in my experience.  Would a Blood Scent Dog still be able to smell the blood afterwards?

[Mr Gray]

I fear this is a particularly grey area but the actual truth as far as the inspection of 5a is concerned is that Eddie did alert to substances for which he was trained.

The difficulty arises when one attempts to put a label on those substances because we know, as Sadie already pointed out, that Eddie could alert to many substances including cadaver odour.  That is why Mr Grime had to apply the caveat to the dog alerts to the effect that the alerts had no evidential reliability unless corroborated by other evidence.

There is no grey are whatsoever... The alerts, are not
Confirmed

[faithlilly]

Where does it say that Keela will alert to a scent that has been left in the location by something such as clothing that has been removed?

Keela alerts to blood. Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver scent. If Eddie alerts and Keela doesn’t then that is suggestive that Eddie is alerting to cadaver scent. I really can’t make it any simpler.

[faithlilly]

As most people know, salt and cold water removes blood from fabric, totally, in my experience.  Would a Blood Scent Dog still be able to smell the blood afterwards?

According to Grime yes.

[jassi]

Where does it say that Keela will alert to a scent that has been left in the location by something such as clothing that has been removed?

This might answer your question  https://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Oesterhelweg%201998.pdf

[Brietta]

Firstly unless you are suggesting that Grime, Harrison and half the PJ failed to report an alert in Casa Liliana then your first point is irrelevant.
Secondly the dogs reacted to no other car.
Thirdly Eddie’s behaviour changed on entering 5a and continued during the search. I’m sure this was the reason more time was spent there. This doesn’t appear to have happened in any other of the apartments.
And finally the fact that Eddie was used suggests so.

We know what Eddie alerted to in the Renault ... a key fob contaminated with cellular material from Gerry McCann.

So he did alert to the substance he was trained to ... but since Gerry McCann was and is very much alive ... it just was not 'cadaver scent'.

[Brietta]

Didn’t Eddie alert to dried blood ? If a blood dog hadn’t also screened the area isn’t it possible that Eddie was alerting to blood ? Fortunately Keela also searched 5a and didn’t alert in the bedroom so we can rule dried blood out in that instance.

From memory Eddie alerted to

• tissues used to clean up and discarded after a sexual encounter
• milk teeth
• very old bones
• JAR/6 - which was a coconut shell
• a spot where cremation ashes had been scattered

Therefore the cadaver dog alerted.  Samples collected - forensic tests conducted and conclusions were as detailed above.
Therefore the dog did its job, found what he was trained to find, but he didn't find cadaver scent which did not have an explanation.

[faithlilly]

From memory Eddie alerted to

• tissues used to clean up and discarded after a sexual encounter

Contamination ?

• milk teeth

From a cadaver or deposited in same area as cadaver ?

• very old bones

From a cadaver.

• JAR/6 - which was a coconut shell

Contained collagen. Coconuts do not contain collagen.

• a spot where cremation ashes had been scattered

A burned cadaver.

Therefore the cadaver dog alerted.  Samples collected - forensic tests conducted and conclusions were as detailed above.
Therefore the dog did its job, found what he was trained to find, but he didn't find cadaver scent which did not have an explanation.

Let me remind you exactly what Eddie alerted to.


JAR/30: 3-4; 1940s to 1980s. Two fragments of burnt bone one is fragment of longbone? Tibia. Submitted to University of Sheffield with KSH/158. Origin confirmed as human. Submitted for dating awaiting results.

JAR/33: 3-4; 1940s to 1980’s.
Calcined fragment of bone. ?human.

JAR/53: 183. Cellar 3 Dark char rich deposit equivalent to 169.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
5 fragments of calcined long bone ?human.

JAR/54: 183. Cellar 3 Dark char rich deposit equivalent to 169.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
4 fragments of calcined bone ?human.

JAR/55: 183. Cellar 3 Dark char rich deposit equivalent to 169.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
1 fragment of calcined bone ?human.

JAR/57:183. Cellar 3 Dark char rich deposit equivalent to 169.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
2 fragments of bone of unknown origin.

JAR/56: 183. Cellar 3 Dark char rich deposit equivalent to 169.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
1 fragment of bone ?human.

JAR/67: 183. Zone 3 East Cellar 3.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
Human Tooth: deciduous left maxillary first molar, age 9 yrs ± 3 yrs. Could have been shed naturally (Anthro exam).
Submitted to odontologist, see report.

JAR/69: 183. Zone 3 East Cellar 3.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
Fragments x 3 of possible human cortical bone.

JAR/61: 183 Zone 4 East Cellar 3.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
23 Fragments of bone:
1 Burnt fragment which closely resembles a human juvenile mastoid process.
2. Burnt fragment of ?human mandible.
3. Fragments of burnt long bone x 3 measuring between 11.3 and 16.3 mm.
4. Fragments of unidentified burnt cortical and trabecular bone x 7.
5. Fragment of slightly burnt long bone measuring 33 mm. The cortex of the
bone resembles human but it is quite thick and the trabeculae can not be seen because it requires cleaning. It appears to have been cut at one end.
6. Fragments of unburnt unidentified long bone. x 3 The appearance and texture of the cortex of the fragments appears more animal than human but it is advised that further examination should be undertaken in order to confirm this.
7. Fragments of unidentified long bone x 7. 5 have been burnt and 2 haven’t. Species
uncertain although two of the burnt fragments could possibly be human

JAR/90: 183 Cellar 3 Zone 3 East.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
Fragments of unidentified bone of unknown species. One which is calcined is possibly human bone.

Cellar 4 Context 169 (redeposited char material from fire elsewhere. Unsealed)

JAR/36: 169. Cellar 4 E. Charred material at southern end of Zone 4. Equivalent to 127.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
Fragment of bone ?human.

JAR/37: 169. Cellar 4 E. Charred material at southern end of Zone 4. Equivalent to 127.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
Fragment of burnt bone. ?human mastoid process

JAR/39: 169. Cellar 4 E. Charred material at southern end of Zone 4. Equivalent to 127.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
Fragment of burnt bone ?human.

JAR/40: 169. Cellar 4 E. Charred material at southern end of Zone 4. Equivalent to 127.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
Fragment of bone ?human.

GMK/18: 169. Cellar 4 E. Charred material at southern end of Zone 4. Equivalent to 127.
4 / 5: 1960s to present date.
Human tooth. Anthro exam – deciduous left maxillary lateral incisor. Age range 6 yrs ± 2yrs

[faithlilly]

We know what Eddie alerted to in the Renault ... a key fob contaminated with cellular material from Gerry McCann.

So he did alert to the substance he was trained to ... but since Gerry McCann was and is very much alive ... it just was not 'cadaver scent'.

Eddie alerts to blood. There was blood on the key fob. In 5a Eddie alerted but Keela didn’t so it couldn’t have been to blood but cadaver scent.

[Robittybob1]

We know what Eddie alerted to in the Renault ... a key fob contaminated with cellular material from Gerry McCann.

So he did alert to the substance he was trained to ... but since Gerry McCann was and is very much alive ... it just was not 'cadaver scent'.

It is still cadaver scent even if the person the tissue comes from is still alive.  Imagine if a person lost his arm in an accident, and makes his way to hospital.  The people never recover his arm, but he survives.
Years later dogs on a cadaver dog training exercise find a years old bones from a human victim.
Wouldn't the dog trainers immediately think the person had died?