UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on November 14, 2019, 09:46:35 AM
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I can see the 'Latest News (Not Search Related)' thread has veered towards searching for a body hence I've started up a new thread.
Former MET officer Ian Horrocks:
Also, in my view, the substantial cost of digging up a large section of the wasteland was unnecessary, and an example of resources being misused. Does anybody really think that a kidnapper came prepared with a shovel and had the time to dig a hole capable of hiding a body. This is no simple task,the ground in May would be extremely hard, and in my view did not happen.
https://www.bgpglobalservices.com/happened-madeleine-mccann-2/
Search Expert Mark Harrison:
In conclusion there is no intelligence spe?ic to this case or generic datasets
that support a scenario of beach burial. Additionally the digability study and
coastal dynamics of the Praia Da Luz beach further limit this as a viable
scenario.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
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And given the all expenses spared investigations into MM's disappearance is it really possible a body could have ended up at landfill?
The investigation into the disappearance of Corrie McKeague included a search of landfill some 12 months after his disappearance which involved a 27 week search and more than 2,800 tonnes of waste during the second phase of the search (source: The Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/11/corrie-mckeague-landfill-search-fails-to-find-missing-airman
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The only way to find out is to go there and try it. Please report back with your findings asap.
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I can see the 'Latest News (Not Search Related)' thread has veered towards searching for a body hence I've started up a new thread.
Former MET officer Ian Horrocks:
Also, in my view, the substantial cost of digging up a large section of the wasteland was unnecessary, and an example of resources being misused. Does anybody really think that a kidnapper came prepared with a shovel and had the time to dig a hole capable of hiding a body. This is no simple task,the ground in May would be extremely hard, and in my view did not happen.
https://www.bgpglobalservices.com/happened-madeleine-mccann-2/
Search Expert Mark Harrison:
In conclusion there is no intelligence spe?ic to this case or generic datasets
that support a scenario of beach burial. Additionally the digability study and
coastal dynamics of the Praia Da Luz beach further limit this as a viable
scenario.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Easy to criticise, but presumably OG had reason for bringing dogs back and doing a little digging.
It may be that this particular lead was no stronger than many others they have put time and effort into, but they obviously intended to leave no stone unturned - literally in this instance
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The only way to find out is to go there and try it. Please report back with your findings asap.
I'm simply getting threads back on-topic. The only digging I'll be doing in the near future will involve digging around old archives!
I do not believe MM's body was disposed of in or around PDL.
I can't be sure of my suspect(s) motive but I think it unlikely it was sinister in the sense of physical/sexual assault leading to murder/disposing of a body.
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From The General:
I don't think so either, certainly not a shallow hole anyway, in my experience; I was alluding to the fact that there are several different ground conditions, all with varying degrees of 'hardness'. The whole of southern Portugal is not uniform, so simply stating that the ground is baked, even in May, is superfluous.
From Holly:
In terms of the MCanns they did not have access to a vehicle to dispose of a body outside PDL until much later by which time body decomposition would be a give away.
In terms of others the S&R dogs did not scent MM outside the immediate vicinity so yes its possible someone placed MM in a vehicle and drove away from PDL.
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It was an exercise that had to be done, and The Portuguese didn't want to do it.
The UK Police often dig up places only to find No Body of whatever missing person.
No Body was found, so that's that one out. And The Beach was never going to do.
The Logistics applied to The McCanns being responsible just don't work.
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I'm simply getting threads back on-topic. The only digging I'll be doing in the near future will involve digging around old archives!
I do not believe MM's body was disposed of in or around PDL.
I can't be sure of my suspect(s) motive but I think it unlikely it was sinister in the sense of physical/sexual assault leading to murder/disposing of a body.
Of course not. The risks taken were far too great for some passing fancy.
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It was an exercise that had to be done, and The Portuguese didn't want to do it.
The UK Police often dig up places only to find No Body of whatever missing person.
No Body was found, so that's that one out. And The Beach was never going to do.
The Logistics applied to The McCanns being responsible just don't work.
When digging to find a body, who was responsible for supposedly putting it there is of secondary importance - IMO
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When digging to find a body, who was responsible for supposedly putting it there is of secondary importance - IMO
Did I mention who may have been responsible?
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When digging to find a body, who was responsible for supposedly putting it there is of secondary importance - IMO
When bodies are found they usually reveal all sorts of clues.
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Did I mention who may have been responsible?
No, but you did mention who couldn't possibly be responsible - or at least that's how I interpreted your last line of your earlier post.
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No, but you did mention who couldn't possibly be responsible - or at least that's how I interpreted your last line of your earlier post.
All roads lead to Rome ... please remain on topic and do not digress into argument. TY
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It was perfectly feasible to dispose of a child's body in PdL. There was the 'bin' possibility, the 'sea' possibility and probably other possibilities too.
As no-one knows what happened to Madeleine McCann the possibilty can't be dismissed.
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It was perfectly feasible to dispose of a child's body in PdL. There was the 'bin' possibility, the 'sea' possibility and probably other possibilities too.
As no-one knows what happened to Madeleine McCann the possibilty can't be dismissed.
Almost anything is possible but given the extensive searches carried out it seems most unlikely. Have you read the report by search expert Mark Harrison?
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Almost anything is possible but given the extensive searches carried out it seems most unlikely. Have you read the report by search expert Mark Harrison?
And given the resources ploughed into OG in terms of £'s and humans I can't see any stones left unturned in PDL.
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And given the all expenses spared investigations into MM's disappearance is it really possible a body could have ended up at landfill?
The investigation into the disappearance of Corrie McKeague included a search of landfill some 12 months after his disappearance which involved a 27 week search and more than 2,800 tonnes of waste during the second phase of the search (source: The Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/11/corrie-mckeague-landfill-search-fails-to-find-missing-airman
It took over 25 yrs for the South Yorkshire police to come up with the professional belief Ben Needham died in a accident close to where he was staying/living,it can happen close to the last known whereabouts.
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It took over 25 yrs for the South Yorkshire police to come up with the professional belief Ben Needham died in a accident close to where he was staying/living,it can happen close to the last known whereabouts.
But were search experts and British police involved when Ben disappeared in 1991?
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You're quick, I'll give you that.
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But were search experts and British police involved when Ben disappeared in 1991?
It seems searches were carried out by Hellenic police, army and fire brigade.
17/18 years on and the expertise and equipment to search has no doubt improved.
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But were search experts and British police involved when Ben disappeared in 1991?
Doesn't matter does it,it shows that a small childs body can be missing in plain sight,nothing suggest's imo that its not the case in the McCann case.There are lots of wells I understand around Luz,were and have each and every one of them been searched,what would the criteria do so,funding from what ever force in not infinite.It need's targeting,Grange had one shot at it and came up empty handed,take some justification to do another without some serious intel I'd venture.
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Doesn't matter does it,it shows that a small childs body can be missing in plain sight,nothing suggest's imo that its not the case in the McCann case.There are lots of wells I understand around Luz,were and have each and every one of them been searched,what would the criteria do so,funding from what ever force in not infinite.It need's targeting,Grange had one shot at it and came up empty handed,take some justification to do another without some serious intel I'd venture.
Well you said it took S.Yorks Police 25 years to come up with a professional belief that BN might have died in an accident close to where he was living/staying and I suggested the reason for the delay might have been that they were not involved in the search up until that moment in time so on this basis yes it does matter.
Unless someone did something extraordinary like drop a body from a low flying chopper into a well or built a catapult capable of firing a body into a well then someone or something must have gone up to the well and I would imagine this would leave some recent forensic evidence by way of footprints, tyre marks and earth disturbance in general.
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I can see the 'Latest News (Not Search Related)' thread has veered towards searching for a body hence I've started up a new thread.
Former MET officer Ian Horrocks:
Also, in my view, the substantial cost of digging up a large section of the wasteland was unnecessary, and an example of resources being misused. Does anybody really think that a kidnapper came prepared with a shovel and had the time to dig a hole capable of hiding a body. This is no simple task,the ground in May would be extremely hard, and in my view did not happen.
https://www.bgpglobalservices.com/happened-madeleine-mccann-2/
Search Expert Mark Harrison:
In conclusion there is no intelligence spe?ic to this case or generic datasets
that support a scenario of beach burial. Additionally the digability study and
coastal dynamics of the Praia Da Luz beach further limit this as a viable
scenario.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
What I find incredible about MH's report is that he had to take into account Krugel's 'evidence'.
Who was actually leading the investigation?
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Well you said it took S.Yorks Police 25 years to come up with a professional belief that BN might have died in an accident close to where he was living/staying and I suggested the reason for the delay might have been that they were not involved in the search up until that moment in time so on this basis yes it does matter.
Unless someone did something extraordinary like drop a body from a low flying chopper into a well or built a catapult capable of firing a body into a well then someone or something must have gone up to the well and I would imagine this would leave some recent forensic evidence by way of footprints, tyre marks and earth disturbance in general.
There's virtually little or no forensics of such in and around 5a,so where does that leave it?
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What I find incredible about MH's report is that he had to take into account Krugel's 'evidence'.
Who was actually leading the investigation?
Take Harrison's report,add Grimes dog's,add the digs in 2014 what picture does that paint to what the Brit police think of what happened to Madeleine.
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There's virtually little or no forensics of such in and around 5a,so where does that leave it?
Now't but beliefs and wacky theories - IMO
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There's virtually little or no forensics of such in and around 5a,so where does that leave it?
No forensic material was recovered from 5A that doesn't mean it didn't exist.
If the police have trawled through mountains of data by way of phone calls, electronic card payments, hire cars, passport control, flights etc, etc there's no reason they would not have excluded every well in and around PDL by way of of forensic geophysics eg earth disturbance, inserting equip into wells by way of cameras and scanners.
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No forensic material was recovered from 5A that doesn't mean it didn't exist.
If the police have trawled through mountains of data by way of phone calls, electronic card payments, hire cars, passport control, flights etc, etc there's no reason they would not have excluded every well in and around PDL by way of of forensic geophysics eg earth disturbance, inserting equip into wells by way of cameras and scanners.
Yeah, well maybe they haven't gone that far - unless OG are prepared to fund it
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Take Harrison's report,add Grimes dog's,add the digs in 2014 what picture does that paint to what the Brit police think of what happened to Madeleine.
Harrison's report seems to conclude no body concealed in/around PDL. The dogs didn't turn up anything relevant and neither did the 2014 digs so what does it tell us? It suggests to me no body concealed in/around PDL.
And even if the Brit police initiated all of this it only tells us they were looking for a body not who they thought might have been responsible for concealing a body?
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Yeah, well maybe they haven't gone that far - unless OG are prepared to fund it
Given the searches carried out by all concerned I would be most surprised if the wells haven't been eliminated?
How much would it cost to survey the wells and surrounding area?
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Mark Harrison's Profile:
Personal Profile
I am the National Adviser in relation to Search for all Police agencies within the United Kingdom for Missing persons, Abduction and Homicide. My role involves advising on searching for persons that are missing, abducted or murdered, using enhanced search techniques and technologies. I attend and review cases providing advice and support on search plans, strategies and resources. I have extensive national and international experience in such casework. I am a visiting Professor of Earth and Ocean Sciences at the University of Southampton.
In compiling this report I have driven and walked around the relevant areas of Praia Da Luz during the hours of darkness and then during daylight hours. I have conducted reconnaissance flights using the Civil defence helicopter. Consultation has been made with various colleagues and subject matter experts in the development of this report.
This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed within the areas previously searched by Police in Zone 1 around Praia Da Luz. Other scenarios or possibilities may on request be considered and be subject of a further report. I also make comment on the recent claims made by a Mr Krugel as to the whereabouts of the missing child.
I don't see any reason to doubt MH's competence?
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Harrison's report seems to conclude no body concealed in/around PDL. The dogs didn't turn up anything relevant and neither did the 2014 digs so what does it tell us? It suggests to me no body concealed in/around PDL.
And even if the Brit police initiated all of this it only tells us they were looking for a body not who they thought might have been responsible for concealing a body?
It tells us that they never found a body,not that there isn't one, to paraphrase you
No forensic material was recovered from 5A that doesn't mean it didn't exist.
No body was found doesn't mean to say one doesn't exist.
One piece of high profile investigation work on their hands and knee's shows they were looking for remains,can you produce one high profile search conducted by Grange to show they think otherwise?
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Harrison's report seems to conclude no body concealed in/around PDL. The dogs didn't turn up anything relevant and neither did the 2014 digs so what does it tell us? It suggests to me no body concealed in/around PDL.
And even if the Brit police initiated all of this it only tells us they were looking for a body not who they thought might have been responsible for concealing a body?
Seeing as you quoted me,I've never mentioned any one by name who I think maybe involved,apart from Smithman that is,
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It tells us that they never found a body,not that there isn't one, to paraphrase you
No body was found doesn't mean to say one doesn't exist.
There's a difference between trying to capture forensic evidence from a potential soc, much of which is not even visible to the naked eye, and looking for the body/remains of a small child.
One piece of high profile investigation work on their hands and knee's shows they were looking for remains,can you produce one high profile search conducted by Grange to show they think otherwise?
I don't know anything about anyone on their hands and knees looking for remains? Assuming this is so how do you know they were looking for remains and not tell-tale forensics?
Officers on the ground carrying out the above are visible and therefore the media will report. When officers are carrying out desk based work eg mobile phone data we don't get to hear about it.
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Seeing as you quoted me,I've never mentioned any one by name who I think maybe involved,apart from Smithman that is,
But the S&R dogs didn't scent in the direction of Smithman. And why would anyone who was responsible for MM's disappearance from 5A think it good idea to place her in a car and then get out with MM in the area Smithman was spotted?
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But the S&R dogs didn't scent in the direction of Smithman. And why would anyone who was responsible for MM's disappearance from 5A think it good idea to place her in a car and then get out with MM in the area Smithman was spotted?
No idea,what car? Smithman could have done all manner of thing's,with out a confession we'll never know.imo
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Speaking of Danie Krugel, has his map of the route Madeleine was taken to the beach area form Apartment 5A that night, ever been revealed? I’ve also noticed that the search area he suggested, includes the villa of Clement Freud.
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Speaking of Danie Krugel, has his map of the route Madeleine was taken to the beach area form Apartment 5A that night, ever been revealed? I’ve also noticed that the search area he suggested, includes the villa of Clement Freud.
It appeared not.
Mr Krugel is believed to have uncovered a "forensic route" from Maddie's holiday appartment along paths and roads to a nearby beach.
"The area is walking distance from Praia da Luz. I don't want to say exactly where because I don't want to interfere with this investigation. I don't want to give anyone the chance to destroy the prints," he said.
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id304.htm
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And given the all expenses spared investigations into MM's disappearance is it really possible a body could have ended up at landfill?
The investigation into the disappearance of Corrie McKeague included a search of landfill some 12 months after his disappearance which involved a 27 week search and more than 2,800 tonnes of waste during the second phase of the search (source: The Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/11/corrie-mckeague-landfill-search-fails-to-find-missing-airman
If they couldn't find a big strapping lad like Corrie what chance a small child?
Take a hypothesis that Smithman put a body in a bin,these bins were emptied over night,he was hardly likely to come out and declare I want the body back was he?
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No idea,what car? Smithman could have done all manner of thing's,with out a confession we'll never know.imo
If Smithman was carrying MM how do you think he got there when the S&R dogs didn't scent MM in that direction?
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If they couldn't find a big strapping lad like Corrie what chance a small child?
I would suggest the reason CM's body/remains were not found at landfill is that they're not there.
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If Smithman was carrying MM how do you think he got there when the S&R dogs didn't scent MM in that direction?
Whats to say the supposed tracking of Madeleines scent wasn't another occurrence?
Back to the topic,can it be ruled out that there was a possibility that a child's body can be disposed of in and around the PDL area.
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I would suggest the reason CM's body/remains were not found at landfill is that they're not there.
The police believe his body ended up in the refuse system.
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Almost anything is possible but given the extensive searches carried out it seems most unlikely. Have you read the report by search expert Mark Harrison?
Yes, his opinion was;
The searches described in this document were limited to certain locations. Therefore, it can not be said that the concealed remains of Madeleine McCann are not within the village of Praia da Luz.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
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Hi Barrier, I realise that many people are sceptical about Krugel and his ‘MOS’ device. He has had some success in other cases though. He lives in the suburb next to where I live and his two Godsons attend the same school as my son. After all these years with interference not relevant any longer, he might be willing to provide some detail. I think it could be interesting.
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Hi Barrier, I realise that many people are sceptical about Krugel and his ‘MOS’ device. He has had some success in other cases though. He lives in the suburb next to where I live and his two Godsons attend the same school as my son. After all these years with interference not relevant any longer, he might be willing to provide some detail. I think it could be interesting.
I wonder if he mirrored the walk of Smithman.
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If they couldn't find a big strapping lad like Corrie what chance a small child?
Take a hypothesis that Smithman put a body in a bin,these bins were emptied over night,he was hardly likely to come out and declare I want the body back was he?
If MM was put in a bin then why didn't the S&R dogs scent in that direction?
I don't understand your second sentence?
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If MM was put in a bin then why didn't the S&R dogs scent in that direction?
I don't understand your second sentence?
Who was going to declare she was in a bin? the McKeague search comes from the unusual weight of a bin.
'No other reasonable explanation' for high bin weight in Corrie case, police say
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Back to the op,can it be categorically said that its been ruled out,Do Carmo in 2017 had this to say,we don't know what happened and have to be prepared for different scenarios,this was in relation to being asked by Brunt was it excepted the girl was abducted.
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‘I wonder if he mirrored the walk of Smithman’.
Me too. Perhaps along the Pescadores road? He does not seem to be very approachable but I am going to ask him.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Who was going to declare she was in a bin? the McKeague search comes from the unusual weight of a bin.
'No other reasonable explanation' for high bin weight in Corrie case, police say
I thought the CM search came about as the last cctv footage of him was near bins? In any event landfill was searched 12 months later and found nothing by which time his body would have decomposed and he would no longer have amounted to a 'strapping lad'.
If the bins were thought heavy at the time why wait 12 months to undertake the search?
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Yes, his opinion was;
The searches described in this document were limited to certain locations. Therefore, it can not be said that the concealed remains of Madeleine McCann are not within the village of Praia da Luz.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
He made a number of reports which one does the above pertain to?
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Hi Barrier, I realise that many people are sceptical about Krugel and his ‘MOS’ device. He has had some success in other cases though. He lives in the suburb next to where I live and his two Godsons attend the same school as my son. After all these years with interference not relevant any longer, he might be willing to provide some detail. I think it could be interesting.
But afaik his methods have no scientific basis to them?
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I thought the CM search came about as the last cctv footage of him was near bins? In any event landfill was searched 12 months later and found nothing by which time his body would have decomposed and he would no longer have amounted to a 'strapping lad'.
If the bins were thought heavy at the time why wait 12 months to undertake the search?
Paper work was incorrect,well documented at the time.
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If Smithman was carrying MM how do you think he got there when the S&R dogs didn't scent MM in that direction?
Those dogs haven't been proved to have tracked MM.
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Those dogs haven't been proved to have tracked MM.
None of the dogs in this case have been proved to have done anything significant in this case.
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Those dogs haven't been proved to have tracked MM.
Well they were scenting something or someone otherwise they wouldn't have moved.
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Well they were scenting something or someone otherwise they wouldn't have moved.
you reckon? Are they trained to remain still unless they pick up a scent?
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you reckon? Are they trained to remain still unless they pick up a scent?
They are trained to track a scent so given they moved then they must have been scenting something or someone.
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They are trained to track a scent so given they moved then they must have been scenting something or someone.
But we will never know what or who it was so IMO pointless to dwell on it,
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But we will never know what or who it was so IMO pointless to dwell on it,
What makes you think we will never know?
Child disappears seemingly off the face of the earth. S&R dogs do not scent outside immediate vicinity. Extensive searches by experts in the locality reveal nothing. Therefore not unreasonable to assume child was placed in a vehicle and driven away.
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Always unwise to assume the unknown.
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Always unwise to assume the unknown.
I don't see it as an unknown: child disappears; S&R dogs introduced to last known whereabouts and scented in the immediate vicinity only; search experts carried out extensive searches in the locality deploying all known expertise and technologies and found nothing. Therefore not unreasonable to assume child placed in vehicle and driven away as this is what the evidence suggests.
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What makes you think we will never know?
Child disappears seemingly off the face of the earth. S&R dogs do not scent outside immediate vicinity. Extensive searches by experts in the locality reveal nothing. Therefore not unreasonable to assume child was placed in a vehicle and driven away.
How do you think it will ever be proven, seriously?
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How do you think it will ever be proven, seriously?
The worlds finest police force are going to nail Mrs Fenn's niece, just see if they don't.
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I don't see it as an unknown: child disappears; S&R dogs introduced to last known whereabouts and scented in the immediate vicinity only; search experts carried out extensive searches in the locality deploying all known expertise and technologies and found nothing. Therefore not unreasonable to assume child placed in vehicle and driven away as this is what the evidence suggests.
Only one option. Nothing confirmatory and certainly no evidence of car.
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Only one option. Nothing confirmatory and certainly no evidence of car.
That doesn't matter.
You just 'imagine in' a getaway car, same way you do an abductor.
I like to imagine there was a whole coach party of abductors & watchers, & speed boats waiting on the beach.
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How do you think it will ever be proven, seriously?
So you don't anticipate the case will ever be concluded?
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Well they were scenting something or someone otherwise they wouldn't have moved.
Fair enough, but I say again there's no proof that it was MM.
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Only one option. Nothing confirmatory and certainly no evidence of car.
If MM was placed in a car in the immediate vicinity what evidence would you expect to see?
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Fair enough, but I say again there's no proof that it was MM.
I know you keep saying and I keep asking if the dogs were not scenting MM who were they scenting?
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I know you keep saying and I keep asking if the dogs were not scenting MM who were they scenting?
Whoever used/handled the pink blanket. Anyone who may have used the bath towel.
1. MM on the day she ran off with the twins.
2. The twins on the day they ran off with MM.
3. Her father on the day he followed the children.
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Whoever used/handled the pink blanket. Anyone who may have used the bath towel.
1. MM on the day she ran off with the twins.
2. The twins on the day they ran off with MM.
3. Her father on the day he followed the children.
But the dogs didn't scent in the direction of the last known movements of the twins/GM.
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So you don't anticipate the case will ever be concluded?
Possibly, but I don’t believe the dogs will ever be proven to be correct.
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But the dogs didn't scent in the direction of the last known movements of the twins/GM.
I remember that GM was rather keen to convince people that he crossed that road to speak to JW.
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I remember that GM was rather keen to convince people that he crossed that road to speak to JW.
Convince what people? And what difference does a few feet make anyway?
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Well they were scenting something or someone otherwise they wouldn't have moved.
Using that logic,a couple of dogs must have been scenting something in 5a.But let it not be another dog thread,feasability of disposal in and around PDL.
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Using that logic,a couple of dogs must have been scenting something in 5a.But let it not be another dog thread,feasability of disposal in and around PDL.
Spoilsport.
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Spoilsport.
(&^&
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Possibly, but I don’t believe the dogs will ever be proven to be correct.
If you think the case will be resolved then I think we will find out about the reliability of the S&R dogs deployed in the search for MM.
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I remember that GM was rather keen to convince people that he crossed that road to speak to JW.
But that was GM not MM. If the McCanns were trying to fool the s&r dog handlers by handing them some item that had been in proximity to the body of GM then how would it assist any fooling by GM keen to convince people he crossed that road to speak to JW? GM was involved in searches for MM pre S&R dogs arriving and his last known movements were much further out than the potential spots he was talking to JW in.
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Using that logic,a couple of dogs must have been scenting something in 5a.But let it not be another dog thread,feasability of disposal in and around PDL.
How could the S&R dogs be scenting another dog? They were scenting off items handed to them by KM that had supposedly been in contact with MM's body. Some here believe KM attempted to fool the S&R dogs/handlers by handing them items that hadn't been in contact with MM's body. This begs the question who were the dogs scenting if not MM because they didn't scent last known paths taken by KM/GM or twins.
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Using that logic,a couple of dogs must have been scenting something in 5a.But let it not be another dog thread,feasability of disposal in and around PDL.
How could the S&R dogs be scenting another dog? They were scenting off items handed to them by KM that had supposedly been in contact with MM's body. Some here believe KM attempted to fool the S&R dogs/handlers by handing them items that hadn't been in contact with MM's body. This begs the question who were the dogs scenting if not MM because they didn't scent last known paths taken by KM/GM or twins.
Pardon?
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But that was GM not MM. If the McCanns were trying to fool the s&r dog handlers by handing them some item that had been in proximity to the body of GM then how would it assist any fooling by GM keen to convince people he crossed that road to speak to JW? GM was involved in searches for MM pre S&R dogs arriving and his last known movements were much further out than the potential spots he was talking to JW in.
HG you started a thread about the feasibility of body disposal in and around PDL,I've shown its possible from the Needham case to be so near without knowing.Wasn't there also road works happening at the same time in Luz,we've even had pictures of officers looking into drainage pipes,they must have thought its a real possibility 7 yrs after the event.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27713826
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Whatever the S & R dogs did, it's not enough to rule out the possibility that MM was disposed of in PdL imo. It's a pity they weren't given items to sniff that were clearly hers.
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Pardon?
My mistake. I misread your post and thought you were saying one dog might have been scenting another!
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HG you started a thread about the feasibility of body disposal in and around PDL,I've shown its possible from the Needham case to be so near without knowing.Wasn't there also road works happening at the same time in Luz,we've even had pictures of officers looking into drainage pipes,they must have thought its a real possibility 7 yrs after the event.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27713826
I don't understand your point about BN? His whereabouts remain unknown.
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Whatever the S & R dogs did, it's not enough to rule out the possibility that MM was disposed of in PdL imo. It's a pity they weren't given items to sniff that were clearly hers.
I agree its not enough to rule out the possibility that MM was disposed of in PDL but the S&R dogs not scenting beyond the immediate vicinity AND all the searches carried out under the management of search expert Mark Harrison suggest MM was not disposed of in PDL.
According to KM the dog handlers were given items that had been in close proximity to MM's body. For those that believe KM might have been attempting to fool the dogs/handlers by handing them items that hadn't been in contact with MM's body then whose body had they been in contact with? KM only had access to a finite number of items and the dogs didn't scent in the last known paths that KM/GM/twins had walked.
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I agree its not enough to rule out the possibility that MM was disposed of in PDL but the S&R dogs not scenting beyond the immediate vicinity AND all the searches carried out under the management of search expert Mark Harrison suggest MM was not disposed of in PDL.
According to KM the dog handlers were given items that had been in close proximity to MM's body. For those that believe KM might have been attempting to fool the dogs/handlers by handing them items that hadn't been in contact with MM's body then whose body had they been in contact with? KM only had access to a finite number of items and the dogs didn't scent in the last known paths that KM/GM/twins had walked.
I'm no expert on S & R dogs, but if MM was abducted then she was carried. I find it hard to believe that the dogs followed her (carried) scent to that lampost but didn't pick up her walking scent from there. She had walked by that spot four times on 3rd.
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I don't understand your point about BN? His whereabouts remain unknown.
True his remains unaccounted for but its the professional belief of South Yorkshire police that he died in an accident.
The accident happened as close to the place he was staying as could be,Showing a body could be disposed of easily.
What the Needham case showed was, that it was a third party talking that brought it to light 25 yrs on,who's to say thats not what it'll be in the McCann case.
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If Maddie's body left 5a inside a sports bag you could hide a tennis racket in, then the scent dogs wouldn't have picked that up IMO
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I agree its not enough to rule out the possibility that MM was disposed of in PDL but the S&R dogs not scenting beyond the immediate vicinity AND all the searches carried out under the management of search expert Mark Harrison suggest MM was not disposed of in PDL.
According to KM the dog handlers were given items that had been in close proximity to MM's body. For those that believe KM might have been attempting to fool the dogs/handlers by handing them items that hadn't been in contact with MM's body then whose body had they been in contact with? KM only had access to a finite number of items and the dogs didn't scent in the last known paths that KM/GM/twins had walked.
There’s no logic to your post. If Madeleine was abducted and put in a car and that’s as far as thenS&R dogs tracked her scent then that does not mean her body could not have been disposed of elsewhere in PdL.
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If Maddie's body left 5a inside a sports bag you could hide a tennis racket in, then the scent dogs wouldn't have picked that up IMO
GA: Mark Harrison, an English expert, who did the planning of the searches that were carried out with the CSI dogs, of the cadaver odour and blood, at the end of July, early August, puts forward that serious hypothesis - that the body was taken inside a sports bag, he speaks of a golf bag, of a sports bag – and indeed a sports bag existed. There are photographs taken inside the apartment immediately after the disappearance, an hour later, and the sports bag is there, inside the closet and is of a darkish blue colour.
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id408.htm
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GA: Mark Harrison, an English expert, who did the planning of the searches that were carried out with the CSI dogs, of the cadaver odour and blood, at the end of July, early August, puts forward that serious hypothesis - that the body was taken inside a sports bag, he speaks of a golf bag, of a sports bag – and indeed a sports bag existed. There are photographs taken inside the apartment immediately after the disappearance, an hour later, and the sports bag is there, inside the closet and is of a darkish blue colour.
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id408.htm
Amaral said that ?? When the crime scene photographs were taken the apartment was under the jurisdiction of the Portuguese police. Do you suppose that fact had slipped his mind ?
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The final spot where her body could be buried is the golfcourse. Not only the one near PDL but maybe the golfcourse where GM used to play near the border of Spain in the years before 2007. . They never searched those spots with cadaver dogs .
What, in a bunker?
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The final spot where her body could be buried is the golfcourse. Not only the one near PDL but maybe the golfcourse where GM used to play near the border of Spain in the years before 2007. . They never searched those spots with cadaver dogs .
Mark Harrison recommended searching the area between the Boavista Golf Club and the village, but I'm not sure if it happened.
"Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
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Mark Harrison recommended searching the area between the Boavista Golf Club and the village, but I'm not sure if it happened.
"Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
So plenty of areas where digging in this parched, rocky terrain would be more than possible?
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So plenty of areas where digging in this parched, rocky terrain would be more than possible?
It’s a big ask to walk there carrying a dead body in the dark IMO.
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A local may have considered the use of a septic tank for body disposal. There are plenty of villas with them in Praia da Luz & the Algarve in general. Tanks can remain unemptied for many years & a body would quickly degrade inside one. Cause of death would prove to be difficult to determine, as would obtaining any perpetrator's DNA if or when the body was found.
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It would be extremely easy to dispose of a child's body in the Luz area as it is pockmarked with natural drainage crevices and underground caverns formed over thousands of years by surface water erosion. It would be an impossible task to search all the land around Praia da Luz.
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I'm no expert on S & R dogs, but if MM was abducted then she was carried. I find it hard to believe that the dogs followed her (carried) scent to that lampost but didn't pick up her walking scent from there. She had walked by that spot four times on 3rd.
What spot exactly are you referring to ?
Are you sure that she had walked by 'that' spot four times on the 3rd ? Because if she had then, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
Good observation Gunit.
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What spot exactly are you referring to ?
Are you sure that she had walked by 'that' spot four times on the 3rd ? Because if she had then, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
Good observation Gunit.
However, I truly think that the S & R dogs were following the trail of the person who lifted Madeleine and not Madeleines scent probably. In my opinion he was vehicle carried to the little car park opposite the Tapas Reception and leaving the car there, he walked the path the S & R dogs walked but in the reverse direction.
In other words, he was en route to abducting Madeleine via the Front door IMO and his sweaty smell was on the blanket or towel given to the PJ dogs.
It is also possible that after handing Madeleine over to Tannerman, he walked back the same way
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What, in a bunker?
A splendid chance for OG to put their niblicks to good use.
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A local may have considered the use of a septic tank for body disposal. There are plenty of villas with them in Praia da Luz & the Algarve in general. Tanks can remain unemptied for many years & a body would quickly degrade inside one. Cause of death would prove to be difficult to determine, as would obtaining any perpetrator's DNA if or when the body was found.
It took 37 years to find Brenda Venables...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7300643/Man-86-arrested-womans-body-septic-tank.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7300643/Man-86-arrested-womans-body-septic-tank.html)
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It would be extremely easy to dispose of a child's body in the Luz area as it is pockmarked with natural drainage crevices and underground caverns formed over thousands of years by surface water erosion. It would be an impossible task to search all the land around Praia da Luz.
Which is why no activity since 2014 has been seen,where to start,OG targeted the waste ground because imo it was handy for smithy,it proved to be wrong,but like I've said unless a third party confession or indeed the perpetrator fesses up we'll never know.easiest disposal would be in a bin,now whether this happened is another theory but along with others its open to debate.
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However, I truly think that the S & R dogs were following the trail of the person who lifted Madeleine and not Madeleines scent probably. In my opinion he was vehicle carried to the little car park opposite the Tapas Reception and leaving the car there, he walked the path the S & R dogs walked but in the reverse direction.
In other words, he was en route to abducting Madeleine via the Front door IMO and his sweaty smell was on the blanket or towel given to the PJ dogs.
It is also possible that after handing Madeleine over to Tannerman, he walked back the same way
Bit convoluted for a targeted abduction.
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I'm no expert on S & R dogs, but if MM was abducted then she was carried. I find it hard to believe that the dogs followed her (carried) scent to that lampost but didn't pick up her walking scent from there. She had walked by that spot four times on 3rd.
It seems the dogs scent off skin rafts which we all shed at the rate of 40,000 per minute. Given the size of these things it stands to reason that any slight air disturbance will cause them to move around. I believe that night it was somewhat windy? Plus people were dashing around the vicinity to search and cars driving up and down the road and in and out of the car park. The skin rafts are not going to provide the sort of precision available with a GPS tracking device just a rough trail. All that can be said is that whoever the dogs were scenting they lost the trail in the immediate vicinity which to me suggests MM was placed in a car within the immediate vicinity.
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True his remains unaccounted for but its the professional belief of South Yorkshire police that he died in an accident.
The accident happened as close to the place he was staying as could be,Showing a body could be disposed of easily.
What the Needham case showed was, that it was a third party talking that brought it to light 25 yrs on,who's to say thats not what it'll be in the McCann case.
But the British police were not involved when BN disappeared? I think S.Yorks police acted on a tip-off which in any event didn't take the case anywhere?
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If Maddie's body left 5a inside a sports bag you could hide a tennis racket in, then the scent dogs wouldn't have picked that up IMO
The dogs left by the front door.
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There’s no logic to your post. If Madeleine was abducted and put in a car and that’s as far as thenS&R dogs tracked her scent then that does not mean her body could not have been disposed of elsewhere in PdL.
Yes I said as much with regard to 'Smithman' ie if he was carrying MM then it would mean (in terms of the dogs scenting) that MM was placed in a car in the immediate vicinity and then removed from the car elsewhere within PDL.
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GA: Mark Harrison, an English expert, who did the planning of the searches that were carried out with the CSI dogs, of the cadaver odour and blood, at the end of July, early August, puts forward that serious hypothesis - that the body was taken inside a sports bag, he speaks of a golf bag, of a sports bag – and indeed a sports bag existed. There are photographs taken inside the apartment immediately after the disappearance, an hour later, and the sports bag is there, inside the closet and is of a darkish blue colour.
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id408.htm
Is the above in MH's report?
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
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The final spot where her body could be buried is the golfcourse. Not only the one near PDL but maybe the golfcourse where GM used to play near the border of Spain in the years before 2007. . They never searched those spots with cadaver dogs .
You seem sure MM is no longer alive?
I would imagine if would be pretty difficult to start digging around golf courses without getting noticed?
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So plenty of areas where digging in this parched, rocky terrain would be more than possible?
He doesn't mention parched, rocky terrain?
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A local may have considered the use of a septic tank for body disposal. There are plenty of villas with them in Praia da Luz & the Algarve in general. Tanks can remain unemptied for many years & a body would quickly degrade inside one. Cause of death would prove to be difficult to determine, as would obtaining any perpetrator's DNA if or when the body was found.
How would a local know MM was home alone in the unsupervised apartment?
Forensic scientist Dave Barclay told Martin Brunt that some 500 paedophiles with links to the area had been ruled out.
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It would be extremely easy to dispose of a child's body in the Luz area as it is pockmarked with natural drainage crevices and underground caverns formed over thousands of years by surface water erosion. It would be an impossible task to search all the land around Praia da Luz.
But would your average Joe know all of this and have the wherewithal to conceal a body in such a location?
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It seems the dogs scent off skin rafts which we all shed at the rate of 40,000 per minute. Given the size of these things it stands to reason that any slight air disturbance will cause them to move around. I believe that night it was somewhat windy? Plus people were dashing around the vicinity to search and cars driving up and down the road and in and out of the car park. The skin rafts are not going to provide the sort of precision available with a GPS tracking device just a rough trail. All that can be said is that whoever the dogs were scenting they lost the trail in the immediate vicinity which to me suggests MM was placed in a car within the immediate vicinity.
Which means that the tracking was fine until the dogs emerged onto R. Dr. F.G.M. There was wind, there were cars, there were lots of people around. I find it hard to believe that the dogs were able to follow a scent across the road to the lampost. I think you are placing too much reliance on these dogs.
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It took 37 years to find Brenda Venables...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7300643/Man-86-arrested-womans-body-septic-tank.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7300643/Man-86-arrested-womans-body-septic-tank.html)
But that was 37 years ago. Everything has changed including police training.
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It took 37 years to find Brenda Venables...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7300643/Man-86-arrested-womans-body-septic-tank.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7300643/Man-86-arrested-womans-body-septic-tank.html)
Very interesting. *&(+(+
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‘ How would a local know MM was home alone in the unsupervised apartment?
Forensic scientist Dave Barclay told Martin Brunt that some 500 paedophiles with links to the area had been ruled out‘.
It might have been a paedophile who was not a local/resident of the Algarve and whose DNA has not been captured on any database during the time. S/he might have simply observed over the course of a couple of days, a predictable pattern emerging as to the McCann’s movements. But then again, a local could have done the same.
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Which is why no activity since 2014 has been seen,where to start,OG targeted the waste ground because imo it was handy for smithy,it proved to be wrong,but like I've said unless a third party confession or indeed the perpetrator fesses up we'll never know.easiest disposal would be in a bin,now whether this happened is another theory but along with others its open to debate.
Unless someone is intimately involved in the case how would any of us know what activity has been going on since 2014? All we know is that the HO sanctioned further funding this year to the tune of 300k.
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Unless someone is intimately involved in the case how would any of us know what activity has been going on since 2014? All we know is that the HO sanctioned further funding this year to the tune of 300k.
We do know that the manpower has been reduced to 4, not necessarily full timers.
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‘ How would a local know MM was home alone in the unsupervised apartment?
Forensic scientist Dave Barclay told Martin Brunt that some 500 paedophiles with links to the area had been ruled out‘.
It might have been a paedophile who was not a local/resident of the Algarve and whose DNA has not been captured on any database during the time. S/he might have simply observed over the course of a couple of days, a predictable pattern emerging as to the McCann’s movements. But then again, a local could have done the same.
It would need to be a paedophile who was able to gain intelligence first or second hand that MM was home alone night after night in the unsecured apartment.
I don't know what the definition of a paedophile is in terms of the conversation Dave Barclay had with Martin Brunt? Is it someone who maybe GHCQ/Interpol has intelligence on that has downloaded obscene images which I understand are graded from 1 - 5? 500 paedophiles in an area like PDL seems a worryingly high number if it amounts to those potentially prepared to abduct a child.
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Which means that the tracking was fine until the dogs emerged onto R. Dr. F.G.M. There was wind, there were cars, there were lots of people around. I find it hard to believe that the dogs were able to follow a scent across the road to the lampost. I think you are placing too much reliance on these dogs.
But the point is they didn't scent outside the immediate vicinity.
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In the dark no problem at all. A bunker on a golfcourse is like a graveyard. It never changes as long the course is used.
And given the high profile nature of the case you think those tasked with managing the course on a professional basis would overlook such disturbance needed to bury a small child?
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We do know that the manpower has been reduced to 4, not necessarily full timers.
Yes I think I read 3 PC's and a sergeant so why 300k as this more than covers salaries and pensions?
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Yes I think I read 3 PC's and a sergeant so why 300k as this more than covers salaries and pensions?
Surveillance.
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Yes I think I read 3 PC's and a sergeant so why 300k as this more than covers salaries and pensions?
Creative accounting perhaps?
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Hi Holly, the intelligence you are referring to lies within observation itself.
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Surveillance.
Why didn't I think of that being a spy 8)-)))
In theory I think the Brit police need the 8((()*/ from their foreign counterparts if they wish to carry out surveillance on turf outside UK. I've no idea what the rules are about electronic surveillance: phones, computers, bank cards etc.
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And given the high profile nature of the case you think those tasked with managing the course on a professional basis would overlook such disturbance needed to bury a small child?
Bunker sand is usually no more than six inches deep at the base level. Better by far to dispose of a body in one of the many unused wells which litter the Algarve... no digging required.
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Creative accounting perhaps?
Maybe. Here's the pay scales:
https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/3349735/metfriendly-police-pay-scales-2018-2019.pdf
I guess 3 pc's, 1 sergeant and the gold plated final salary pension (linked to rpi I think) doesn't leave a great deal. Certainly not much for further onsite visits and expert digs.
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Hi Holly, the intelligence you are referring to lies within observation itself.
Yes but those who were able to observe directly or gain the intelligence second-hand amount to a finite number of people and imo its these people who need putting under the microscope 8(>(( ?>)()<
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Bunker sand is usually no more than six inches deep at the base level. Better by far to dispose of a body in one of the many unused wells which litter the Algarve... no digging required.
Yes I agree but even venturing up to a well would surely leave some tell-tale forensics by way of earth disturbance, footprints, tyre marks?
OG has has so far had some 12/13 million over 8/6 years: 2011 - 2013 = review. 2013 - to date = operational. I wouldn't mind betting every well has been visited and a camera/scanner inserted.
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There will be no disturbance at all if you have the right equipment. The sand covers it. Just egalise and no one will notice something was buried there.
Of course there are more places further away to dump her body.
A friend of mine buried his dog ( German shepherd) in a bunker. He lived near the golfcourse. The remains are still there and nothing has changed. That was in 1983.
Are you able to cite any cases where humans have been buried in bunkers on a golf course?
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But the point is they didn't scent outside the immediate vicinity.
You speak about these dogs as if they were infallible, which they weren't. On the other hand I fail to see their relevance on a thread about whether a dead body could be disposed of in and around Luz.
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And given the all expenses spared investigations into MM's disappearance is it really possible a body could have ended up at landfill?
The investigation into the disappearance of Corrie McKeague included a search of landfill some 12 months after his disappearance which involved a 27 week search and more than 2,800 tonnes of waste during the second phase of the search (source: The Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/11/corrie-mckeague-landfill-search-fails-to-find-missing-airman
If MM was disposed of in a bin then it was perfectly possible for the body to end up in landfill.
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Posters are again warned that comments which include potentially libellous content are prohibited.
Please take care when commenting on matters which remain the subject of the current police investigation.
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Why didn't I think of that being a spy 8)-)))
In theory I think the Brit police need the 8((()*/ from their foreign counterparts if they wish to carry out surveillance on turf outside UK. I've no idea what the rules are about electronic surveillance: phones, computers, bank cards etc.
I don't think they do need the permission of The PJ, providing that is isn't in Portugal.
And I meant Feet On The Ground, if they know where Madeleine is. Employed in the country of where she is.
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But would your average Joe know all of this and have the wherewithal to conceal a body in such a location?
I doubt that anyone who had the temerity to kidnap a child could ever be described as "your average Joe". In my opinion there are many locals, many ex-pats and many frequent holidaymakers or visitors who are in possession of exactly that type of information.
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It would need to be a paedophile who was able to gain intelligence first or second hand that MM was home alone night after night in the unsecured apartment.
I don't know what the definition of a paedophile is in terms of the conversation Dave Barclay had with Martin Brunt? Is it someone who maybe GHCQ/Interpol has intelligence on that has downloaded obscene images which I understand are graded from 1 - 5? 500 paedophiles in an area like PDL seems a worryingly high number if it amounts to those potentially prepared to abduct a child.
I don't think it did.
The intruder who gained entry to holiday homes to attack the children must obviously have carried out a reconnaissance of some kind prior to entry.
A chance passing when the parents parents were leaving the apartment ... a drink at the bar to check the lie of the land ... would have provided all the information necessary.
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You speak about these dogs as if they were infallible, which they weren't. On the other hand I fail to see their relevance on a thread about whether a dead body could be disposed of in and around Luz.
The S&R dogs have a long history across the globe on all terrain which links into thread in terms of scenting the direction MM left 5A.
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I don't think they do need the permission of The PJ, providing that is isn't in Portugal.
And I meant Feet On The Ground, if they know where Madeleine is. Employed in the country of where she is.
Afaik if within UK they don't need permission only if outside.
If they know the location of an alive MM why not just seize and make arrests if within UK or gain cooperation from foreign counterparts to act if appropriate?
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If MM was disposed of in a bin then it was perfectly possible for the body to end up in landfill.
Yes I agree but do you think the landfill has been overlooked given the resources?
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Afaik if within UK they don't need permission only if outside.
If they know the location of an alive MM why not just seize and make arrests if within UK or gain cooperation from foreign counterparts to act if appropriate?
It wouldn't be appropriate without chain of evidence DNA.
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No, it is a spot where nobody expects a grave. If she was deceased someone had to look for possibilities to dump the body of MM. The course has never been searched. That is a failure, because you have to rule out the possibility.
I would suggest the fact that you're unable to cite a case which involves concealing a body on a golf course is due to the fact it isn't a good hidey-hole.
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A bunker is a perfect spot.
Depends on the calibre of golfers using the course I guess.
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Which means that the tracking was fine until the dogs emerged onto R. Dr. F.G.M. There was wind, there were cars, there were lots of people around. I find it hard to believe that the dogs were able to follow a scent across the road to the lampost. I think you are placing too much reliance on these dogs.
Ah. So precisely how much reliance should anyone place on any dog alerts?
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In the dark no problem at all. A bunker on a golfcourse is like a graveyard. It never changes as long the course is used.
And yes, I am sure MM died before 7.00pm.
No problem at all? I’m guessing you speak from personal experience of hiding bodies in golf bunkers in the dark...?
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I’m going to add golf bunker to the list of highly implausible last resting places cited for Madleine McCann’s remains, a list which includes an old lady’s coffin, yew tree, volcano, dead dog’s belly, a mantlepiece in Rothley, I’m sure there are others...
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The S&R dogs have a long history across the globe on all terrain which links into thread in terms of scenting the direction MM left 5A.
I think the point of Search and Rescue dogs is just that: they look and if they are successful they find.
I wonder why it took so long for anyone to show enough interest to take notes of their work until Rebelo was firmly ensconced in the co-ordinator's chair?
On the 7th of May, Rex and Zarus showed a great deal of interest in apartment 5J of the apartment block. In their desperation to locate the missing child the PJ seem to have omitted to search an empty apartment in the same block from which she had disappeared.
Therefore not only is there a feasibility of disposing of a small child's body in the immediate area there is the feasibility that she was transported within that timescale of six days after her disappearance to anywhere within six days travel from Luz that you may care to suggest.
May I remind members that no-one has yet come up with intelligence or proof that Madeleine McCann died in Luz if she is dead at all, let alone speculating on the feasibility of her burial there.
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The S&R dogs have a long history across the globe on all terrain which links into thread in terms of scenting the direction MM left 5A.
That's no good if you can't be 100% sure whose scent they were following, and it's still off topic imo.
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Hi Brietta, I agree with you. I believe Madeleine is not dead because it is easier to find a body as opposed to an alive person. In a period spanning 6 days, she could have been taken anywhere across the globe.
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Your answer gives you an invitation to stay 6 months in the US to the paradise of thinkers: the Institute of Advanced studies at Princeton. I will introduce you by Robbert Dijkgraaf. He thinks, like all his friends, that nothing is faster than light. That is real scientific fiction.
P https://www.vprobroadcast.com/titles/the-mind-of-the-universe/watch/the-mind-eng.html
http://themindoftheuniverse.org/explore
*%87
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Hi Brietta, I agree with you. I believe Madeleine is not dead because it is easier to find a body as opposed to an alive person. In a period spanning 6 days, she could have been taken anywhere across the globe.
Really,how come they can't find Suzi Lamplugh's then,Ben Needham's,Corrie McKeague to name but three high profile ones,add to that Muriel Mckay
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Yes I agree but even venturing up to a well would surely leave some tell-tale forensics by way of earth disturbance, footprints, tyre marks?
OG has has so far had some 12/13 million over 8/6 years: 2011 - 2013 = review. 2013 - to date = operational. I wouldn't mind betting every well has been visited and a camera/scanner inserted.
With the digs as well covered as they were I doubt OG could get anywhere near with out some one seeing them.
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I think the point of Search and Rescue dogs is just that: they look and if they are successful they find.
I wonder why it took so long for anyone to show enough interest to take notes of their work until Rebelo was firmly ensconced in the co-ordinator's chair?
On the 7th of May, Rex and Zarus showed a great deal of interest in apartment 5J of the apartment block. In their desperation to locate the missing child the PJ seem to have omitted to search an empty apartment in the same block from which she had disappeared.
Therefore not only is there a feasibility of disposing of a small child's body in the immediate area there is the feasibility that she was transported within that timescale of six days after her disappearance to anywhere within six days travel from Luz that you may care to suggest.
May I remind members that no-one has yet come up with intelligence or proof that Madeleine McCann died in Luz if she is dead at all, let alone speculating on the feasibility of her burial there.
Readers need reminding that no one has come up with intelligence or proof Madeleine is alive let alone having speculation there is surveillance by OG.
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Unless someone is intimately involved in the case how would any of us know what activity has been going on since 2014? All we know is that the HO sanctioned further funding this year to the tune of 300k.
What is not known is what this funding covers,to speculation they are engaged in searching is just that,speculation.
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But the British police were not involved when BN disappeared? I think S.Yorks police acted on a tip-off which in any event didn't take the case anywhere?
How did they arrive at a professional beleif then?
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Hi Barrier, I am not familiar with the cases you have mentioned. Are they all confirmed as deceased? To me, Madeleine’s age when she disappeared, is crucial.
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Readers need reminding that no one has come up with intelligence or proof Madeleine is alive let alone having speculation there is surveillance by OG.
The feasibility of Madeleine being buried in Praia da Luz was tested to its utmost and beyond by Amaral: he proved it was unfeasible for any but someone with the appropriate local knowledge and resources to achieve the feasibility asked for in the title of the thread.
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Hi Barrier, I am not familiar with the cases you have mentioned. Are they all confirmed as deceased? To me, Madeleine’s age when she disappeared, is crucial.
In the case of S lamplugh,there is a convicted killer serving a sentence who is the prime suspect in her murder she disappeared some yrs ago and the police declared her dead,how one ask's with out evidence.
A couple of chaps were jailed for life for the kidnap and murder of Muriel Mckay,no body found,school of thought is she was fed to pigs.
Corrie Mckeague remains missing his remains are believed to be in the refuse system.
The above were all adults.
Ben Needham was just shy of his 2nd birthday when he disappeared,believed to have died in an accident involving earth moving machinery.
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Readers need reminding that no one has come up with intelligence or proof Madeleine is alive let alone having speculation there is surveillance by OG.
If Amaral is entitled to a Theory then so am I.. He seems to think that Madeleine was disposed of in PdL. I don't.
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The feasibility of Madeleine being buried in Praia da Luz was tested to its utmost and beyond by Amaral: he proved it was unfeasible for any but someone with the appropriate local knowledge and resources to achieve the feasibility asked for in the title of the thread.
But a body in the refuse system wasn't though was it?
I'll readily accept Madeleine is alive and well if some one will present evidence as such.
Rowley 2017,we have no definitive evidence either way.
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If Amaral is entitled to a Theory then so am I.. He seems to think that Madeleine was disposed of in PdL. I don't.
Then you'll accept Despite Briettas intervention then, that speculation involving disposal is entitled.
May I remind members that no-one has yet come up with intelligence or proof that Madeleine McCann died in Luz if she is dead at all, let alone speculating on the feasibility of her burial there.
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Then you'll accept Despite Briettas intervention then, that speculation involving disposal is entitled.
Did Brietta say it wasn't. Although entitled is a bit strong in my opinion.
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Then you'll accept Despite Briettas intervention then, that speculation involving disposal is entitled.
There is no rational explanation of why you have twisted my ... "May I remind members that no-one has yet come up with intelligence or proof that Madeleine McCann died in Luz if she is dead at all, let alone speculating on the feasibility of her burial there." into your ... " ... that speculation involving disposal is entitled".- In the first instance ... do not paraphrase my posts into a perversion of what I said
- In the second instance ... I am very obviously not the arbitrator of what can and cannot be posted on the forum ... that is for members to decide for themselves
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There is no rational explanation of why you have twisted my ... "May I remind members that no-one has yet come up with intelligence or proof that Madeleine McCann died in Luz if she is dead at all, let alone speculating on the feasibility of her burial there." into your ... " ... that speculation involving disposal is entitled".- In the first instance ... do not paraphrase my posts into a perversion of what I said
- In the second instance ... I am very obviously not the arbitrator of what can and cannot be posted on the forum ... that is for members to decide for themselves
Bearing in mind the possibility of Libel, of course.
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Bearing in mind the possibility of Libel, of course.
Absolutely ... and with any other obvious breach of forum rules. What I think are mean spirited posts are just a fact of life to be lived with I suppose.
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The feasibility of Madeleine being buried in Praia da Luz was tested to its utmost and beyond by Amaral: he proved it was unfeasible for any but someone with the appropriate local knowledge and resources to achieve the feasibility asked for in the title of the thread.
I agree to the extent that if someone did hide Madeleine's body somewhere in the Praia da Luz area they would require to have some basic local knowledge and most certainly some form of transport.
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"It is possible a small child could be secreted amongst the rocks in natural voids."
"Therefore if someone deposited a body into the sea, on the night of M McCann's disappearance, from the beach the optimum time window for full access to the whole beach and rocky outcrop was between 2200hrs and 0200hrs. This time window would also be the optimum time for burial in the sand, not withstanding the digability study limitations previously described."
Smithman was spotted at around 2200 heading towards the beach/sea so the best time for full access according to Mark Harrison.
Low tide was at 2200 on 3 May 2007 therefore any search should be done at low tide on the rocky areas.
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I agree to the extent that if someone did hide Madeleine's body somewhere in the Praia da Luz area they would require to have some basic local knowledge and most certainly some form of transport.
Now you know the reason for OG's digs,just because they didn't find a body where they dug doesn't mean to say there isn't one.
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Did Brietta say it wasn't. Although entitled is a bit strong in my opinion.
The battle fields of Europe are scattered with the remains of the brave who gave their all,you're right its not an entitlement,the right of the right of entitlement of opinion was fought for.
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Now you know the reason for OG's digs,just because they didn't find a body where they dug doesn't mean to say there isn't one.
And just because they apparently didn’t find physical evidence of an abductor doesn’t mean to say there wasn’t one.
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And just because they apparently didn’t find physical evidence of an abductor doesn’t mean to say there wasn’t one.
Of course, but without evidence they can't move forward on that front, whereas they could extend a dig area.
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And just because they apparently didn’t find physical evidence of an abductor doesn’t mean to say there wasn’t one.
On the other hand the lack of such evidence makes A C Rowley's comments in 2017 about abduction astonishing. Pedro do Carmo's comments that all options must be considered were much more reasonable imo.
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On the other hand the lack of such evidence makes A C Rowley's comments in 2017 about abduction astonishing. Pedro do Carmo's comments that all options must be considered were much more reasonable imo.
It'll be an interesting read once its shut in 2022.
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The battle fields of Europe are scattered with the remains of the brave who gave their all,you're right its not an entitlement,the right of the right of entitlement of opinion was fought for.
Is there the slightest possibility you could exercise your 'entitlement' by sticking to the thread topic please. TY
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On the other hand the lack of such evidence makes A C Rowley's comments in 2017 about abduction astonishing. Pedro do Carmo's comments that all options must be considered were much more reasonable imo.
And just what is de Camo and his team doing? Still sitting on their arses “considering options”? At least the Met attempted to get answers by putting boots on the ground. And note I used the word “apparently “ - we actually don’t know what evidence may have come to light since the investigation was re-opened that supports the abduction theory.
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It'll be an interesting read once its shut in 2022.
Topic please.
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On the other hand the lack of such evidence makes A C Rowley's comments in 2017 about abduction astonishing. Pedro do Carmo's comments that all options must be considered were much more reasonable imo.
Do Carmo also said the McCann's are not suspects and there's no evidence against them... Or do you just wish to cherry pick the points that suit you and ignore those that dont
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Topic please.
OG obviously considered a disposal,that will be in any files released,so very much on topic.
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Do Carmo also said the McCann's are not suspects and there's no evidence against them... Or do you just wish to cherry pick the points that suit you and ignore those that dont
I guess that's all that matters, then.
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I guess that's all that matters, then.
I don't think anything posted here really matters
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No, I am not able to cite any cases. That’s why I suggested it. There are a lot of cases, also in the UK, where victims were dumped near a golfcourse or on the premises.
Boavista Golfcourse in PDL is at walking distance and a perfect spot to bury a child. Look at the images or go to Google Earth to see the possibilities. at a bunker there is always equipment to keep the bunker clean. On one picture you can see such tool.
It’s a remote area so no eyewitnesses around in the night. This area was never investigated. A cadaver dog is cheaper than reviewing the case and extend it to never ending stories till death do us part as I wrote already.
A bunker as dumpingspot sounds weird, but this unsolved case is weird too and so is the mind of a killer.
Mate, you are aware that a bunker typically only has about 4" of sand, then you're down to who knows what - could be anything; rock, clay, dense soil, or even a drainage layer of stone.
Besides, who would be stupid enough to bury a body in a spot that will be walked across several times a day, and tended at least daily. There's miles and miles of rough that would serve the purpose way better - pick the most secluded, impassable spot. (and that's where I would invariably hit my ball)
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No, I am not able to cite any cases. That’s why I suggested it. There are a lot of cases, also in the UK, where victims were dumped near a golfcourse or on the premises.
Boavista Golfcourse in PDL is at walking distance and a perfect spot to bury a child. Look at the images or go to Google Earth to see the possibilities. at a bunker there is always equipment to keep the bunker clean. On one picture you can see such tool.
It’s a remote area so no eyewitnesses around in the night. This area was never investigated. A cadaver dog is cheaper than reviewing the case and extend it to never ending stories till death do us part as I wrote already.
A bunker as dumpingspot sounds weird, but this unsolved case is weird too and so is the mind of a killer.
How many minutes to walk from Apt5a to the nearest bunker in the dark with a dead body, to the nearest 5 minutes plz.
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Mate, you are aware that a bunker typically only has about 4" of sand, then you're down to who knows what - could be anything; rock, clay, dense soil, or even a drainage layer of stone.
I googled “strange things found buried in a golf bunker” and the only thing that came up was “my mate buried his dead dog in a bunker and its remains are there to this day”. Must have been a miniature chihuahua.
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How many minutes to walk from Apt5a to the nearest bunker in the dark with a dead body, to the nearest 5 minutes plz.
41. There's acres of wasteland and scrub that would serve a purpose, no need for a bunker.
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Grab a pin, prick on the desired burial spot betwixt Baptista and Boavista, then email OG...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Boavista+Golf+%26+Spa+Resort/@37.07976,-8.7199888,2070a,35y,38.98t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!3m7!1s0xd1b3107836f11af:0xc25eedf65ce11295!5m2!4m1!1i2!8m2!3d37.1028648!4d-8.7068441 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Boavista+Golf+%26+Spa+Resort/@37.07976,-8.7199888,2070a,35y,38.98t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!3m7!1s0xd1b3107836f11af:0xc25eedf65ce11295!5m2!4m1!1i2!8m2!3d37.1028648!4d-8.7068441)
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I don't think anything posted here really matters
Only to those of us who enjoy the communication.
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Don’t be fixated on the word bunker, but look at the golfcourse and the footpath from PDL towards it. That remote area has never been investigated. It could be contained a spot where a body of a child could be buried, even near a building.
Vertigo, don’t swirl to much.
It was a German shepherd.
This comment is bordering on Libel. Please be careful.
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I will modify the reply.
Thank You. Cooperation is always seriously welcome.
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I do hope you will replace the quote. Thanks for the warning.
I haven't removed anything. Sometimes it takes new members a while to get used to The Rules.
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I do understand, but I removed a part that is still in the quote and your reply.
Oh Dear. How very stupid of me. I guess that I was a bit thrown by your graceful compliance. There isn't a lot of that going on around here.
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This comment is bordering on Libel. Please be careful.
Yeah, I seriously take exception to “Vertigo, dont swirl to much” and am consulting my lawyers about it.
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Don’t be fixated on the word bunker, but look at the golfcourse and the footpath from PDL towards it. That remote area has never been investigated. It could be contained a spot where a body of a child could be buried, even near a building.
Vertigo, don’t swirl to much.
It was a German shepherd.
LOL. The idea of burying a German Shepherd in a golf bunker is just too bizarre for words, never mind a dead child. Did your mate get permission for this bunker burial? How do you know the body wasn’t removed by the Golf Club the first time an unsuspecting golfer thwacked at a ball in the sand and ended up scoring a hole in one with an Alsatian’s eyeball?
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LOL. The idea of burying a German Shepherd in a golf bunker is just too bizarre for words, never mind a dead child. Did your mate get permission for this bunker burial? How do you know the body wasn’t removed by the Golf Club the first time an unsuspecting golfer thwacked at a ball in the sand and ended up scoring a hole in one with an Alsatian’s eyeball?
Why is it bizarre? It would be easy digging for one thing.
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Why is it bizarre? It would be easy digging for one thing.
Why is it bizarre?? Are you serious?? Imagine everyone chose to dispose of their pets in golf bunkers because it was “easy digging”. If you don’t think taking a dead animal to a golf course to bury it in a bunker is bizarre then there’s nothing I can say to change your mind obviously.
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Why is it bizarre? It would be easy digging for one thing.
The sands only six inches deep
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The sands only six inches deep
Golf bunkers can be quite deep, it all depends on the site.
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Golf bunkers can be quite deep, it all depends on the site.
Really.. Do you have a cite as required by forum rules
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Golf bunkers can be quite deep, it all depends on the site.
Which sites have deep bunkers then, and why?
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Which sites have deep bunkers then, and why?
Technically speaking links courses have deep bunkers, because the bunkers are gouged / shaped in to the existing terrain utilising the ground material - sand. They import the top layer of sand generally as it's required to be a certain spec.
Boavista is not a links course, however, and I'll be surprised if the sand in the bunkers is not imported and the existing layer is no more than a few inches, then rocky terrain thereafter.
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Operation Grange searched in Luz using cadaver dogs. I'm not sure where they searched, but according to some newspaper reports they searched the waste ground and the mound, which were both situated near to Smithman's route. They clearly thought those were possible disposal sites.
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Technically speaking links courses have deep bunkers, because the bunkers are gouged / shaped in to the existing terrain utilising the ground material - sand. They import the top layer of sand generally as it's required to be a certain spec.
Boavista is not a links course, however, and I'll be surprised if the sand in the bunkers is not imported and the existing layer is no more than a few inches, then rocky terrain thereafter.
Is it really possible that any such burials would fall under the attention of greenskeepers?
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Is it really possible that any such burials would fall under the attention of greenskeepers?
My best friend is Head Greenkeeper at a Championship course. He knows a thing or two about grass and all that.
He would know, or his staff would, if any of the playing surfaces had been disturbed during the night, as they tend to every square inch every day, fixing fox ruts, rabbit digs, moles, etc. You couldn't dig up light rough, for example, without someone noticing something. Similarly with the bunkers - they'd know someone had been mooching about as a minimum.
The rough and Out Of Bounds however, don't receive much if any daily attention. There's usually wooded areas, as on his course, which would serve as a far more suitable location than a bunker.
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I think the point of Search and Rescue dogs is just that: they look and if they are successful they find.
I wonder why it took so long for anyone to show enough interest to take notes of their work until Rebelo was firmly ensconced in the co-ordinator's chair?
On the 7th of May, Rex and Zarus showed a great deal of interest in apartment 5J of the apartment block. In their desperation to locate the missing child the PJ seem to have omitted to search an empty apartment in the same block from which she had disappeared.
Therefore not only is there a feasibility of disposing of a small child's body in the immediate area there is the feasibility that she was transported within that timescale of six days after her disappearance to anywhere within six days travel from Luz that you may care to suggest.
May I remind members that no-one has yet come up with intelligence or proof that Madeleine McCann died in Luz if she is dead at all, let alone speculating on the feasibility of her burial there.
The S&R dogs scent off skin rafts which we all shed at the rate of 40,000 per min. If MM was placed in a car (airtight) within the immediate vicinity her skin rafts would no longer be available for the dogs to scent on and imo this is what happened.
GA took note of them its one of the reasons he was dismissive of 'Tannerman' rightly so imo.
The S&R dogs deployed on 4th May are going to be more reliable than those deployed on 7th May.
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My best friend is Head Greenkeeper at a Championship course. He knows a thing or two about grass and all that.
He would know, or his staff would, if any of the playing surfaces had been disturbed during the night, as they tend to every square inch every day, fixing fox ruts, rabbit digs, moles, etc. You couldn't dig up light rough, for example, without someone noticing something. Similarly with the bunkers - they'd know someone had been mooching about as a minimum.
The rough and Out Of Bounds however, don't receive much if any daily attention. There's usually wooded areas, as on his course, which would serve as a far more suitable location than a bunker.
Thanks. And if anyone wanted to bury/conceal something in the wooded areas they would first need to get whatever to said place which is probably no mean feat in itself? A golf course by definition is not off the beaten track so why attempt to bury/conceal in such a location when numerous isolated spots exist?
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I don't think it did.
The intruder who gained entry to holiday homes to attack the children must obviously have carried out a reconnaissance of some kind prior to entry.
A chance passing when the parents parents were leaving the apartment ... a drink at the bar to check the lie of the land ... would have provided all the information necessary.
Must they? I don't think we know enough about these cases to have any understanding about them?
This would not be enough to understand MM was home alone.
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The S&R dogs scent off skin rafts which we all shed at the rate of 40,000 per min. If MM was placed in a car (airtight) within the immediate vicinity her skin rafts would no longer be available for the dogs to scent on and imo this is what happened.
GA took note of them its one of the reasons he was dismissive of 'Tannerman' rightly so imo.
The S&R dogs deployed on 4th May are going to be more reliable than those deployed on 7th May.
Gerry McCann was not dismissive of Tannerman.
"The investigators are based in Spain because we believe Madeleine is most likely to be in the Iberian Peninsula or North Africa. They have also released a sketch of an eyewitness who saw a man carrying a small child away from near the apartment on the night Madeleine disappeared. We believe this child was Madeleine."
Gerry McCanns blog day 176 26/10/2007
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/DAYS_101_to_200.htm
The same S & R dogs were used throughout.
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I doubt that anyone who had the temerity to kidnap a child could ever be described as "your average Joe". In my opinion there are many locals, many ex-pats and many frequent holidaymakers or visitors who are in possession of exactly that type of information.
Walking into an unsecured apartment to abduct a small child 'home alone' is one thing. Quite another to outwit a search expert of the calibre of Mark Harrison MBE.
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Thanks. And if anyone wanted to bury/conceal something in the wooded areas they would first need to get whatever to said place which is probably no mean feat in itself? A golf course by definition is not off the beaten track so why attempt to bury/conceal in such a location when numerous isolated spots exist?
I don't think it's feasible at all. In this case you would walk past dozens of more suitable locations just to get to the golf course. 1500m walk up hill, carrying a macabre load? It's a none starter for me.
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Walking into an unsecured apartment to abduct a small child 'home alone' is one thing. Quite another to outwit a search expert of the calibre of Mark Harrison MBE.
Harrison said his work couldn't be seen as having dismissed the possibility of a local disposal, however.
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Harrison said his work couldn't be seen as having dismissed the possibility of a local disposal, however.
From memory, Harrison outlined various modes of disposal / locations / logistical path ways, based on his vast experience and knowledge. But it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to do something different.
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The S&R dogs scent off skin rafts which we all shed at the rate of 40,000 per min. If MM was placed in a car (airtight) within the immediate vicinity her skin rafts would no longer be available for the dogs to scent on and imo this is what happened.
GA took note of them its one of the reasons he was dismissive of 'Tannerman' rightly so imo.
The S&R dogs deployed on 4th May are going to be more reliable than those deployed on 7th May.
Cars are not airtight ... just think about it.
Dogs are capable of tracking a person travelling in a car ... check that out using a search engine.
Ignoring evidence without checking it out is in my opinion sheer incompetence.
The sniffer dogs brought in from Portimao on the fourth were essentially patrol dogs ... I recommend you read the report requested on 3rd December 2007 ... obviously requested by the new coordinator, Amaral having been sacked by then apparently without bothering too much about dogs other than those which don't lie.
If Amaral rubbished Jane Tanner's sighting because the dogs apparently ignored the route taken ... why did he fail to act when the dogs showed obvious interest outside the empty apartment 5J.
Wee bit of a contradiction there I would think.
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Harrison said his work couldn't be seen as having dismissed the possibility of a local disposal, however.
Are you able to quote the exact words used and context?
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Cars are not airtight ... just think about it.
Dogs are capable of tracking a person travelling in a car ... check that out using a search engine.
S&R dogs working off skin rafts will lose the trail once a human is in a modern car unless of course the car is open top 8(>((
Ignoring evidence without checking it out is in my opinion sheer incompetence.
The sniffer dogs brought in from Portimao on the fourth were essentially patrol dogs ... I recommend you read the report requested on 3rd December 2007 ... obviously requested by the new coordinator, Amaral having been sacked by then apparently without bothering too much about dogs other than those which don't lie.
If Amaral rubbished Jane Tanner's sighting because the dogs apparently ignored the route taken ... why did he fail to act when the dogs showed obvious interest outside the empty apartment 5J.
Wee bit of a contradiction there I would think.
The S&R dogs were deployed on 4th May:
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
And its in KM's PB: pages 109 and 110.
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Cars are not airtight ... just think about it.
Dogs are capable of tracking a person travelling in a car ... check that out using a search engine.
Ignoring evidence without checking it out is in my opinion sheer incompetence.
The sniffer dogs brought in from Portimao on the fourth were essentially patrol dogs ... I recommend you read the report requested on 3rd December 2007 ... obviously requested by the new coordinator, Amaral having been sacked by then apparently without bothering too much about dogs other than those which don't lie.
If Amaral rubbished Jane Tanner's sighting because the dogs apparently ignored the route taken ... why did he fail to act when the dogs showed obvious interest outside the empty apartment 5J.
Wee bit of a contradiction there I would think.
5J was entered on 10th May 2007.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
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Gerry McCann was not dismissive of Tannerman.
"The investigators are based in Spain because we believe Madeleine is most likely to be in the Iberian Peninsula or North Africa. They have also released a sketch of an eyewitness who saw a man carrying a small child away from near the apartment on the night Madeleine disappeared. We believe this child was Madeleine."
Gerry McCanns blog day 176 26/10/2007
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/DAYS_101_to_200.htm
The same S & R dogs were used throughout.
I don't find GM a reliable witness and in any event his opinions are no more valid than any of ours in this regard. His training and experience is in medicine not child abduction/criminal investigations.
The outcome of the S&R dog searches on 4th May are more reliable than the outcome on 7th May as skin rafts were more recent on 4th May and any disturbance less.
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I don't find GM a reliable witness and in any event his opinions are no more valid than any of ours in this regard. His training and experience is in medicine not child abduction/criminal investigations.
The outcome of the S&R dog searches on 4th May are more reliable than the outcome on 7th May as skin rafts were more recent on 4th May and any disturbance less.
Just because you don't think GM is a reliable witness doesn't mean he isnt
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Just because you don't think GM is a reliable witness doesn't mean he isnt
Agreed. When looking at these case people form opinions about who and what is reliable.
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S&R dogs working off skin rafts will lose the trail once a human is in a modern car unless of course the car is open top 8(>((
The S&R dogs were deployed on 4th May:
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
And its in KM's PB: pages 109 and 110.
6. At 00.40, given the complexity of the situation that seemed to surround the disappearance, the GNR post commander requested reinforcements from two sniffer dog teams from the Portimao territorial group to help in the searches, considering the possibility that the girl could have left the apartment on foot and could be somewhere not very far from the OC resort.
7. At 01.00 after the group commander had been briefed about the situation, telephone contact was made with an official from the Queluz GNR school, with the aim of their releasing search and rescue dog teams, seeing as these are specially trained to find missing persons, which is not the case with the Portimao sniffer dogs, which are essentially patrol dogs.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
In my opinion the GNR commander did everything by the book regarding the search protocols including the recognition that the patrol dogs used on 4th May were not appropriately trained for the requirements required to search for a missing person.
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5J was entered on 10th May 2007.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Madeleine disappeared on 3rd of May from the ground floor of the same apartment block housing 5J on a floor above.
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6. At 00.40, given the complexity of the situation that seemed to surround the disappearance, the GNR post commander requested reinforcements from two sniffer dog teams from the Portimao territorial group to help in the searches, considering the possibility that the girl could have left the apartment on foot and could be somewhere not very far from the OC resort.
7. At 01.00 after the group commander had been briefed about the situation, telephone contact was made with an official from the Queluz GNR school, with the aim of their releasing search and rescue dog teams, seeing as these are specially trained to find missing persons, which is not the case with the Portimao sniffer dogs, which are essentially patrol dogs.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
In my opinion the GNR commander did everything by the book regarding the search protocols including the recognition that the patrol dogs used on 4th May were not appropriately trained for the requirements required to search for a missing person.
Witness Statement of Antonio Freitas Silva
Date: 2007.05.09
Location: DIC Portimao
Occupation: 1st Sergeant GNR
Location: GNR-Queluz
The deponent states that:
- He comes to the process in the role of Chief of the GNR Search and Rescue Team. He coordinated all the work carried out by the two sniffer dogs in the Luz zone and the immediate areas relating to the disappearance of the English minor Madeleine McCann from the Ocean Club.
- He remembers that on the 4th of May of the current year, around 23H00, they attempted to tentatively identify and thus reconstruct the path taken by the missing minor. They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question. This operation was realised by two different dogs.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
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Witness Statement of Antonio Freitas Silva
Date: 2007.05.09
Location: DIC Portimao
Occupation: 1st Sergeant GNR
Location: GNR-Queluz
The deponent states that:
- He comes to the process in the role of Chief of the GNR Search and Rescue Team. He coordinated all the work carried out by the two sniffer dogs in the Luz zone and the immediate areas relating to the disappearance of the English minor Madeleine McCann from the Ocean Club.
- He remembers that on the 4th of May of the current year, around 23H00, they attempted to tentatively identify and thus reconstruct the path taken by the missing minor. They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question. This operation was realised by two different dogs.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
The dogs used on the 4th of May 2007 were patrol dogs.
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I don't find GM a reliable witness and in any event his opinions are no more valid than any of ours in this regard. His training and experience is in medicine not child abduction/criminal investigations.
The outcome of the S&R dog searches on 4th May are more reliable than the outcome on 7th May as skin rafts were more recent on 4th May and any disturbance less.
You said he was dismissive of Tannerman. Unless you can support that statement with a cite it's incorrect and misleading.
All the S & R searches are unreliable imo as all they were given to sniff was a bath towel allegedly used by MM.
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The dogs used on the 4th of May 2007 were patrol dogs.
The dogs used at 2.30am on 4th May were local patrol dogs. The dogs used on 4th May at 11pm were S & R dogs from near Lisbon.
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You said he was dismissive of Tannerman. Unless you can support that statement with a cite it's incorrect and misleading.
No I said GA was dismissive of 'Tannerman' based on the S&R dogs not scenting in that direction:
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11095.msg561828#msg561828
All the S & R searches are unreliable imo as all they were given to sniff was a bath towel allegedly used by MM.
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it but its not an opinion I share with you. We all form opinions based on what/who we think is reliable/unreliable.
If the towel wasn't used by MM and KM was attempting to mislead whose scent do you think they were tracking on?
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Those dogs lost the scent at the parking spot. The search for Madeleine by the friends was concentrated at the OC. complex and towards the beach down hill. No one went to the north for a search. No one searched the ‘ cemeterio municipal’ at Rua do Cemiterio, about 250 meter from those parking spot. A perfect spot to hide a body as long as needed to create an alibi. For example checking the kids. I didn’t found any information about this possibility or if they searched there thoroughly.
I thought a golf bunker was the perfect spot?
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I thought a golf bunker was the perfect spot?
I'm sure there were other good options 8)--))
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I'm sure there were other good options 8)--))
Yes I already listed them. My favourite is the volcano.
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First a graveyard, where if this spot has never been search for the possibility, it could be even the final dumpspot.
Tony?
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Blair?
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Baloney.
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Using slang in a daily classification proces shows that no one in the UK wants to solve this simple crime. Mysteries don’t exist. Asked the Dutch Nobel pricewinner Gerard ‘t Hooft. His hobby is solving coldcases.
its getting quite boring listening to armchair detectives claiming they can crack the case...
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Using slang in a daily classification proces shows that no one in the UK wants to solve this simple crime. Mysteries don’t exist. Asked the Dutch Nobel pricewinner Gerard ‘t Hooft. His hobby is solving coldcases.
Well that’s where you’re wrong, the case has been solved thanks to our very own Holly Goodhead.
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Gerard doesn’t crack coldcases. He reviews them together with a coldcase team.
He stated that the mystery doesn’t exist.
You love mysteries and the innocent who denied any involvement. Behind every frontdoor is another circus.
That doesn't make any sense..
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Yes I already listed them. My favourite is the volcano.
Dropped from a helicopter?
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Aaahh, I get it now! Prof. 't Hooft will elucidate the quantum structure of electroweak interactions in the case and conclude that MM disappeared down a black hole.
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You are right, one can consider this unsolved case as a black hole experience. The event horizon shows the answers to questions KM refused to answer.
http://willamettecollegian.com/main/wu-physics-professors-react-to-photo-of-black-hole/
You can also consider it as a familysecret. No body no case. For a similar example the disappearance of Natalee Holloway on Aruba. Joran van der Sloot published also his innocence.
And don’t forget the King Kong aftermath. It wasn’t the couple but liquid who killed the girl.
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.
Again your post makes no sense... Imo
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Can we stay on topic please. Thanks.
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Tell me what you think really does make sense in this case.
Two lying cadaver dogs ?
Did you see Mark Harrison's report saying no inference can be drawn from the alerts and Grime also saying the alerts have no evidential value
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Tell me what you think really does make sense in this case.
Two lying cadaver dogs ?
If you wish to post about the cadaver dogs here's the appropriate thread:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg550808#msg550808
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Did you see Mark Harrison's report saying no inference can be drawn from the alerts and Grime also saying the alerts have no evidential value
Evidential 'reliability' davel...not value.
ie... the alerts cannot in themself be relied upon but regardless, they have value albeit limited and do constitute evidence. Should Maddie's remains eventually turn up in the Luz area, those alerts will take on a whole new significance imo.
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Evidential 'reliability' davel...not value.
ie... the alerts cannot in themself be relied upon but regardless, they have value albeit limited and do constitute evidence. Should Maddie's remains eventually turn up in the Luz area, those alerts will take on a whole new significance imo.
There was a report by grime and Harrison.... One said value.. The other said reliability... Discovering remains elsewhere in luz does not confirm the alerts... Maddie could have been removed alive and died elsewhere... Afaiac the alerts have been totally discredited by the report of Grimes debacle in jersey
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Evidential 'reliability' davel...not value.
ie... the alerts cannot in themself be relied upon but regardless, they have value albeit limited and do constitute evidence. Should Maddie's remains eventually turn up in the Luz area, those alerts will take on a whole new significance imo.
harrison said no evidential value...these are his acual words...
The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.
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There was a report by grime and Harrison.... One said value.. The other said reliability... Discovering remains elsewhere in luz does not confirm the alerts... Maddie could have been removed alive and died elsewhere... Afaiac the alerts have been totally discredited by the report of Grimes debacle in jersey
Wishful thinking davel?
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Those dogs lost the scent at the parking spot. The search for Madeleine by the friends was concentrated at the OC. complex and towards the beach down hill. No one went to the north for a search. No one searched the ‘ cemeterio municipal’ at Rua do Cemiterio, about 250 meter from those parking spot. A perfect spot to hide a body as long as needed to create an alibi. For example checking the kids. I didn’t found any information about this possibility or if they searched there thoroughly.
When you say 'hide a body' in what way do you mean? Buried? As far as I know Gerry wasn't known to have purchased a spade, if he had I am sure the shop keeper would have come forward by now. So Gerry would have had to have dug a hole in the very hard dry ground? How long would that have taken and how would he have known about the best place to hide a body? Remember also a dead boy will start to smell, alerting people to the area.
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When you say 'hide a body' in what way do you mean? Buried? As far as I know Gerry wasn't known to have purchased a spade, if he had I am sure the shop keeper would have come forward by now. So Gerry would have had to have dug a hole in the very hard dry ground? How long would that have taken and how would he have known about the best place to hide a body? Remember also a dead boy will start to smell, alerting people to the area.
I bet the children had buckets and spades.
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I bet the children had buckets and spades.
Now that is laughable.
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There was also a building site directly behind the church (now a car park) possibly with trenches dug.
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The cemeterio was a good spot to hide a body for a short time. In a bag or bin at the yard. At a cemetery there is always equipment to dig a grave.
I don’t know if that possibility has been used at this graveyard in 2007. I am focused on possibilities that her remains still can be found and the cemetery so close to the OC is an option.
No body no case. So looking again for a dumpspot in the area can bring a breakthrough if the one(s) who are responsible
didn’t had the opportunity to bring the body away by a car. I don’t know how stony the surface at the cemetery was.
Even dumping a body for a short time, it will smell, the smell of a body is very very strong, no one could avoid smelling that if visiting this cemetery
So you are saying a spade would conveniently be left out for anyone to dig a hole? With us they use machinery.
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‘ The cemeterio was a good spot to hide a body for a short time. In a bag or bin at the yard. At a cemetery there is always equipment to dig a grave‘. (Youp69)
Are you talking about the cemetery behind this gate with the cross on top? And in the background, the Estrela da Luz apartments as indicated by the yellow tick?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Yes, but the entrance is situated at the corner with Rua do cemeterio. So closer to the OC.
Sorry I really cannot imagine Gerry thinking 'I know I'll drop Madeleine's body off at the cemetery maybe leave her there, or I think they leave a spade out so I might bury her'.
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‘ Yes, but the entrance is situated at the corner with Rua do cemeterio and Rua do Ramalhete‘.
Can you indicate on this attached map where exactly the entrance is, please?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I found it, thanks.
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I found it, thanks.
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The cemeterio was a good spot to hide a body for a short time. In a bag or bin at the yard. At a cemetery there is always equipment to dig a grave.
I don’t know if that possibility has been used at this graveyard in 2007. I am focused on possibilities that her remains still can be found and the cemetery so close to the OC is an option.
No body no case. So looking again for a dumpspot in the area can bring a breakthrough if the one(s) who are responsible
didn’t had the opportunity to bring the body away by a car. I don’t know how stony the surface at the cemetery was.
You have no evidence MM is deceased.
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Warning this vid contains graphic images of dead bodies and how they decompose:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFJrow7yaec
The idea a body, whether baby, child or adult, can just be left hanging around unnoticed, waiting for a permanent burial is nonsense. Animals, birds and insects would quickly descend attracting attention.
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Warning this vid contains graphic images of dead bodies and how they decompose:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFJrow7yaec
The idea a body, whether baby, child or adult, can just be left hanging around unnoticed, waiting for a permanent burial is nonsense. Animals, birds and insects would quickly descend attracting attention.
Plastic wrapping - problem solved, if only a temporary measure
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Plastic wrapping - problem solved, if only a temporary measure
They used cages in the docu to stop the vultures moving in. If the vultures had access to the corpse the docu states they would have stripped all the flesh within a few hours.
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That’s not what I said. The body had to be removed from the appartment to a temporally spot nearby. The alibi had to be confirmed by friends. So it had to be hidden till the moment that night to seek a permanent burial or dumping spot to solve the problems and trying to escape from justice. Till now, if the parents were involved, they succeeded in their goal.
Please listen to the vid I uploaded. Decomposition waits for no one and nothing. It starts immediately with the corpse crawling with insects and leaking various fluids. In the vid the corpses are under cages to prevent vultures moving in. Animals, birds and insects seeing and/or scenting a corpse will quickly descend and attract attention.
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They used cages in the docu to stop the vultures moving in. If the vultures had access to the corpse the docu states they would have stripped all the flesh within a few hours.
Do vultures fly at night ?
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Do vultures fly at night ?
Well there are different types but afaik they all do? In any event it wouldn't just be restricted to birds of prey but lots of animals, birds and insects. The process is ghastly with foul smells and all manner of fluids leaking from orifices.
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Do vultures fly at night ?
Visions of Carry on Spying... 😉
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There are no vultures on the Algarve.
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Well there are different types but afaik they all do? In any event it wouldn't just be restricted to birds of prey but lots of animals, birds and insects. The process is ghastly with foul smells and all manner of fluids leaking from orifices.
You make it sound as if the body has been left rotting for days.
I believe what was being discussed was a few hours
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There are no vultures on the Algarve.
Really?
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There are no vultures on the Algarve.
https://www.birdinginportugal.com/birds-of-prey/eurasian-griffon-vulture-gyps-fulvus
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https://southellabirder.weebly.com/algarve-raptors.html
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You make it sound as if the body has been left rotting for days.
I believe what was being discussed was a few hours
The process starts immediately upon death.
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That’s not what I said. The body had to be removed from the appartment to a temporally spot nearby. The alibi had to be confirmed by friends. So it had to be hidden till the moment that night to seek a permanent burial or dumping spot to solve the problems and trying to escape from justice. Till now, if the parents were involved, they succeeded in their goal.
Master criminals aren’t they? To know exactly how to hide a body in a busy tourist town so it remains undetected after 12 years of the most intense missing persons search ever.
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https://www.birdinginportugal.com/birds-of-prey/eurasian-griffon-vulture-gyps-fulvus
Sorry you’re wrong. If SIL (world’s leading authority on PdL, also on dogs and humans olfactory abilities) says there are no vultures on the Algarve, then there are no vultures on the Algarve.
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There are still no vultures on the Algarve.
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There are still no vultures on the Algarve.
ShiningInLuz I didn't have you down as a bird watcher but here goes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpbLSrbD0GE
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ShiningInLuz I didn't have you down as a bird watcher but here goes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpbLSrbD0GE
Honestly, I wouldn’t bother trying to convince him if I were you.
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There are still no vultures on the Algarve.
There aren't too many child abductors either.
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There aren't too many child abductors either.
It only takes one.
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There aren't too many child abductors either.
It's been 7 years now and guess what, I've never seen a vulture.
The idea of a body getting picked clean by vultures on the Algarve defines farcical.
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Praia da luzian sky burial.
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Praia da luzian sky burial.
I wonder how many here understand what a Sky Burial is
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Praia da luzian sky burial.
Not quite a sky burial but a corpse undiscovered for 29 years...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/5098610/Skeleton-found-in-tree-29-years-after-suicide.html
!A man who climbed a spruce tree, tied himself to the trunk and shot himself dead has been discovered 29 years after the suicide".
By Sarah Knapton9:42AM BST 03 Apr 2009
The skeleton of the 69-year-old was discovered 11 metres above ground level with a gun next to it.
He had vanished in the summer of 1980 but thick branches and leaves had obscured his body.
The man was only found after parts of the skeleton began to detach and fall to the ground. Bones were discovered by a man walking his dog in the forest.
"It looks as if he meant to never be found again," said a police spokesman in Landshut, north-east of Munich, the town where Heinrich Himmler grew up.
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You make it sound as if the body has been left rotting for days.
I believe what was being discussed was a few hours
And they were out searching all alone in their own words.
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It's been 7 years now and guess what, I've never seen a vulture.
The idea of a body getting picked clean by vultures on the Algarve defines farcical.
Pity you just missed out on the European vulture conference when the venue was on your patch:
https://www.4vultures.org/2019/03/19/join-us-in-portugal-for-the-european-vulture-conference-2019/?mobile=1
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Pity you just missed out on the European vulture conference when the venue was on your patch:
https://www.4vultures.org/2019/03/19/join-us-in-portugal-for-the-european-vulture-conference-2019/?mobile=1
Too interested in the dinosaur footprints.
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Hi Youp69, I think you bring an interesting dimension to Madeleine’s case. The two little cemeteries on Rua Cemiterio are not only in close proximity to the Ocean Club, but also where digging took place in an attempt to uncover some evidence.
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Hi Youp69, I think you bring an interesting dimension to Madeleine’s case. The two little cemeteries on Rua Cemiterio are not only in close proximity to the Ocean Club, but also where digging took place in an attempt to uncover some evidence.
Hi Anthro, what evidence did the digs reveal?
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Too interested in the dinosaur footprints.
Probably pertain to some of the older members here carrying out field visits 8)-)))
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I wonder how many here understand what a Sky Burial is
I know, coz we're all thick as mince.
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Hi Youp69, I think you bring an interesting dimension to Madeleine’s case. The two little cemeteries on Rua Cemiterio are not only in close proximity to the Ocean Club, but also where digging took place in an attempt to uncover some evidence.
Either Matthew Oldfield or Russell O'Brien mentioned searching down that road in their rog interview.
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Hi Anthro, what evidence did the digs reveal?
That a body wasn't there,but a body not there doesn't mean there is no body to be found.
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Pity you just missed out on the European vulture conference when the venue was on your patch:
https://www.4vultures.org/2019/03/19/join-us-in-portugal-for-the-european-vulture-conference-2019/?mobile=1
@)(++(*
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From The General:
I don't think so either, certainly not a shallow hole anyway, in my experience; I was alluding to the fact that there are several different ground conditions, all with varying degrees of 'hardness'. The whole of southern Portugal is not uniform, so simply stating that the ground is baked, even in May, is superfluous.
From Holly:
In terms of the MCanns they DID NOT HAVE ACCESS TO VEHICLE to dispose of a body outside PDL until much later by which time body decomposition would be a give away.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Handwritten Richard McCluskey statement"
He provided a statement in relation to suspicious activity he observed in the early hours of Saturday 5 MAY 2007.In the original statement Mr. McClusky states he described a male alighting A WHITE COLORED VAN and walking along a road carrying what appeared to be a motionless child. He then states he observed a distressed female run down a road and approach the same WHITE VAN. Having viewed recent media coverage regarding the investigation, M, McClusky now states that the female he saw and described IS MRS MCCANN( the missing child?s mother).
"Another thing which has played on my mind is the coverage of Mr McCann walking off the aeroplane holding one of his young children. The way he was holding the child over his left shoulder reminded me of the man carrying the child from the WHITE VAN in Portugal.
Although I could not describe the male I'd seen in Portugal because he had his back to me, it was the particular way Mr. McCann held the child that made me think. He held the child over his left shoulder with his left arm supporting the child?s weight.
(signed).......R McCluskey
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RI_Mc.htm
You mean you don't think they had a vehicle to dispose of a body Holly but that doesn't alter the fact that here is evidence to indicate that they may have got their hands on a white van in the files..
Goodnight!
Good morning Cheeky Monkey
At the bottom of the statment you uploaded it states:
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RI_Mc.htm
It has already been checked! They are Ukrainians from Alvor with a blonde daughter who attends the “A Flor” crèche in Portimao.
Have you got any evidence that the McCanns had access to a vehicle prior to hiring the RS?
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That’s not what I said. The body had to be removed from the appartment to a temporally spot nearby. The alibi had to be confirmed by friends. So it had to be hidden till the moment that night to seek a permanent burial or dumping spot to solve the problems and trying to escape from justice. Till now, if the parents were involved, they succeeded in their goal.
I thought the Police were out with dogs? Any dog would smell a dead body.
As for 'alibi' Jane hardly knew Gerry, do you honestly think all the friends would agree to lie to the Police?
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Thanks for this information. Do you have more details about this attempt ?
Russell O’Brien is in my investigation the one who knows more about the missing of Madeleine. His timeline made it possible to play an important role in moving the body from the appartment to another spot nearby, before KM went to check the kids and the outcome at the time.
And why is Russell O’Brien moving the body in your view?
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Is there more information about digging on Cemetery Road? Who was digging and when?
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Not only Jane stated what you wrote, also Russell. They knew the McCann’s shortly. In my investigation is that an important fact. They didn’t lie about their relation towards the McCann’s, but that doesn’t ruled out their involvement in this case in helping his colleague and wife, who were confronted earlier that evening with a till now unknown event behind the frontdoor of their appartment.
So when did the hiding of the body occur Youp69? Before dinner, then they all gathered at the Tapas bar to laugh and joke the evening away? Or after dinner when people were gathering to search for Madeleine?
They didn't seem that eager to get their alibis together either, they were all rushing around searching for Madeleine. Jane was in her own apartment with her children. So when did Gerry reveal what had happened to Madeleine and ask them all to collaborate? They were writing the time line out in front of the Police officer.
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Friendship is a double bind. Every human being is caught in a web of double binds. I have to introduce this phenomenon in daily life because it’s all about communication and behavior. If you promise a friend to help when he is in trouble you will be confronted with consequences . If you break a promise .... what happens ....
https://psychology-spot.com/double-bind-theory/
A link for those who are unaware of the complexity in their own daily life of this natural and universal phenomenon.
Double binds is all about power and influence. This unsolved case shows the outcome of this daily process.
Hogwash. Do you have friends for whom you would break the law by hiding the body of their dead kid if they asked you nicely?
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Friendship is a double bind. Every human being is caught in a web of double binds. I have to introduce this phenomenon in daily life because it’s all about communication and behavior. If you promise a friend to help when he is in trouble you will be confronted with consequences . If you break a promise .... what happens ....
https://psychology-spot.com/double-bind-theory/
A link for those who are unaware of the complexity in their own daily life of this natural and universal phenomenon. For those who are interested one can find a lot of other links to this theory.
Double binds is all about power and influence. This unsolved case shows till now the outcome of this daily process
Double bind would happen over a period of time, you are talking about a quick decision to cover up the death of a child, to lie to police to put their jobs, family and their future in jeopardy. Also there is a group of people who would have to lie.
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Friendship is from the beginning a double bind. You like eachother. When you tell your friend about something that happened and ask him to keep it a secret and not to talk about it with anybody else he will be caught in your web if he promise to do so.
Your friend is forced to lie and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
You may be acquainted with individuals such as those you describe but to ascribe those qualities to other known individuals isn't just skating close to libel it is in my opinion libel by innuendo.
I will delete any more of it I see and you can take it up with admin of John from there. TY
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Starting your comment with ‘Hogwash’ as being a classifier shows your ignorance.
Refusing to answer my question shows yours.
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Friendship is from the beginning a double bind. You like eachother. When you tell your friend about something that happened and ask him to keep it a secret and not to talk about it with anybody else he will be caught in your web if he promise to do so.
Your friend is forced to lie and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent
You said the group would support the McCann's, Jane hardly knew Gerry. How can you say that a snap decision of a group was made to lie to the Police? Too much would have been at stake for these other couples.
Could you say when the hiding of the body would have taken place?
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That kind of friends I don’t have. As I wrote, no one will asked me to promise not to talk about a secret he wants to share with me. The answer is always ‘ whereof you cannot speak, thereof you must be silent’. Thanks to Ludwig Wittgenstein.
It is the only answer you can give .
When it’s related to crime and you talk about the secret you are classified being a snitch and could be killed.
That happens almost every minute in this world.
Here we have a no body no case.
But you think the McCanns have the kind of acquaintances that would gladly cooperate in criminal acts as soon as asked because...? Why? You think the McCanns would kill them if they snitched? What???
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‘Your friend is forced to lie and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent’.
Hi Youp69, I am trying to understand what you are saying. Does it mean that a friend will be told something in confidence, and the arrangement is that the friend pretends not to know and turn a blind eye and never reveal what s/he has been told in confidence? Therefore, just be silent and not forthcoming and the ‘problem’ will go away’?
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But you think the McCanns have the kind of acquaintances that would gladly cooperate in criminal acts as soon as asked because...? Why? You think the McCanns would kill them if they snitched? What???
i can see youp becoming another of hollys favourite posters
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‘ You understand what he meant. It’s all about logic and true or not true. Language is always misleading’.
Can you perhaps draw an analogy of what you are saying and compare it to Madeleine’s case?
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‘ You understand what he meant. It’s all about logic and true or not true. Language is always misleading’.
Can you perhaps draw an analogy of what you are saying and compare it to Madeleine’s case?
I dont see how it has any relevance to madeleines case
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That kind of friends I don’t have. As I wrote, no one will asked me to promise not to talk about a secret he wants to share with me. The answer is always ‘ whereof you cannot speak, thereof you must be silent’. Thanks to Ludwig Wittgenstein.
It is the only answer you can give .
When it’s related to crime and you talk about the secret you are classified being a snitch and could be killed.
That happens almost every minute in this world.
Here we have a no body no case.
There were a group of friends, this wouldn't have been between just two people. These friends would have had to have agreed to cover up the death of a child. They all had very respectable jobs and families, do you honestly believe they would all have agreed to 'stay silent' as you put it?
Could you please say when, in your opinion the hiding of the body would have taken place?
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i did already, my replies were deleted
We've discussed before and no one has been able to come up with a realistic accident scenario.... Children don't die falling off sofas
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I agree with you.
But what if she drunk from a medical liquid ( a lemonade to fall asleep deeply like the twins that night) from the fridge in a unprotected moment ? In my view it happened all before 8.00pm, even earlier, when GM was at the tenniscourt.
So just speculation... I wonder what this magical medical liquid was. ...any ideas
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A link. As a doctor GM has the knowledge to make a liquid.
https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/drugs-and-treatments/sleeping-pills-and-minor-tranquillisers/#.XdZ_Dy-0uhA
I’d like a cite that alot of people give strong adult tranquilsers to their kids in liquid form to silence their children. Over to you.
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https://www.webmd.com/children/news/20070801/sleep-drugs-often-presecribed-for-kids#1
Did Madeleine and the twins show any sign that they had been given such a drug to sleep? Did they look drowsy and lethargic in the creche? Children can't be given this type of drug without it having some sort of effect on their wellbeing.
You think Madeleine died before 8, so they both left and arrived at the Tapas Bar at 8.30 before any of the others, laughing and joking and enjoying themselves, after disposing of their child's body!!
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We've discussed before and no one has been able to come up with a realistic accident scenario.... Children don't die falling off sofas
Yes they have, and they're not falling off sofas.
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I didn’t mention strong adult tranquilisers.
So you think Madeleine od’ed on weak sedatives designed for children do you? Care to name one?
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Yes they have, and they're not falling off sofas.
Come up with an accident scenario that results in instant death then.
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Yes they have, and they're not falling off sofas.
No they haven't... No one was able to provide a cite..
A fractured skull takes hours to kill a child
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Use your own imagination to answer your crap question. Who said it was instant ? Look at the timeline of the couple during those hours.
I think you are unwise to you the word crap when it quite precisely fits your theory... You are speculating with nothing to support your claims.. Tired children will sleep through anything
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Use your own imagination to answer your crap question. Who said it was instant ? Look at the timeline of the couple during those hours.
Oh, so Madeleine had a long lingering death in the apartment while the McCanns figured out an abduction scam, waiting for her to die. I see...that strikes me as a pretty crap theory.
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Abduction is a realistic possibility... You think the dog alerts are evidence.... That means you don't understand the evidence
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Some people seem to use this a lot;
Appeal to ridicule (also called appeal to mockery, ab absurdo, or the horse laugh[1]) is an informal fallacy which presents an opponent's argument as absurd, ridiculous, or humorous, and therefore not worthy of serious consideration.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule
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sorry Professor Wittgenstein, you’re obviously just far too smart for me. Are you related to Pathfinder btw? You’re certainly peas out of the same peculiar pod. IMO.
Are we going there? Ghost accounts? Are you sure we are going there?*
*despite it being off topic too.
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The couple knows what happened. Asked Russell O’Brien now the friendship has ended many years ago.
Who said the friendship has ended?
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On Topic posts from now on please ... "Feasibility Of Disposing Of A Small Child's Body In The PDL Area" anything else is highly likely to be deleted. TY
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Youp69? I thought Holly's theory was barmy, but his takes the Calpol.
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Some people seem to use this a lot;
Appeal to ridicule (also called appeal to mockery, ab absurdo, or the horse laugh[1]) is an informal fallacy which presents an opponent's argument as absurd, ridiculous, or humorous, and therefore not worthy of serious consideration.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule
Youp69? I thought Holly's theory was barmy, but his takes the Calpol........thats a post by myster.....i think there are times when posts are ridiculous
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Youp69? I thought Holly's theory was barmy, but his takes the Calpol........thats a post by myster.....i think there are times when posts are ridiculous
But surely you agree Davel, how weird a theory it is, that a woman who doesn't know the McCanns should kidnap their toddler because she wants to teach them a lesson for leaving her alone, with the intention of returning her in a couple of days when the heat has died down, as if nothing has happened.
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But surely you agree Davel, how weird a theory it is, that a woman who doesn't know the McCanns should kidnap their toddler because she wants to teach them a lesson for leaving her alone, with the intention of returning her in a couple of days when the heat has died down, as if nothing has happened.
I agree... It's a barmy theory.... Thanks for sharing
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Some people seem to use this a lot;
Appeal to ridicule (also called appeal to mockery, ab absurdo, or the horse laugh[1]) is an informal fallacy which presents an opponent's argument as absurd, ridiculous, or humorous, and therefore not worthy of serious consideration.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule
And a perfectly valid one when the theory being proposed is absurd.
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Are we going there? Ghost accounts? Are you sure we are going there?*
*despite it being off topic too.
Not at all, I thought maybe Yoplait was a foreign cousin or something.
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10 million pounds cause of a wrong timeline imo. That makes me laugh.
I agree that the timeline and physical checks being claimed are made up for effect.IMO.
The time line was scrutinised and seen to be at odds with a reality scenario. Tanner walking past Gerry seeing Tanner man who just happened to jemmie a shutter, open a window when daddy was in the flat, and just left- shear fantasy. This is what kills the abduction theory.
There is nothing wrong in thinking MBM came to harm just before or just after the parents left.
A hiding place? as has been mentioned the body could have been moved several times. A Little girls body was hidden in a loft in the UK by step dad-and then moved.
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You're going to have to trust me that this is on topic, but is Gerry left or right handed?
Yes, my knowledge is that limited, what of it?
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You're going to have to trust me that this is on topic, but is Gerry left or right handed?
Yes, my knowledge is that limited, what of it?
Why? If he’s right handed he’s innocent, if he’s left handed it’s the mark of the devil and he dunnit?
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In a nutshell, yes. The nuns at my school would flog all cack handed kids within an inch of their lives until they trained their right hand, thus making them true god faring catholics.
So which is it, left, right, none or both?
G-Unit will know, also if you want to make him a new three piece suit she will be able to supply his measurements too. I’m left handed (feathered) if it helps?
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G-Unit will know, also if you want to make him a new three piece suit she will be able to supply his measurements too. I’m left handed (feathered) if it helps?
Being left handed as a surgeon is more of a challenge / encumbrance than most other professions - it's not impossible, obviously, but most training and instruments are set up for right handedness.
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Being left handed as a surgeon is more of a challenge / encumbrance than most other professions - it's not impossible, obviously, but most training and instruments are set up for right handedness.
Being left-handed in a right-handed world is a real trial, I can vouch for that. Pity me, pity me!
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Being left-handed in a right-handed world is a real trial, I can vouch for that. Pity me, pity me!
Unless you're a boxer. Being a southpaw can be a real advantage.
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TOPIC please. TY
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TOPIC please. TY
Please refer to my opening post. It is relevant, albeit the subsequent conversation isn't.
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You're going to have to trust me that this is on topic, but is Gerry left or right handed?
Yes, my knowledge is that limited, what of it?
I
I would hold a torch in my right hand, and I'm right handed if that helps.
(https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/zz0505d.jpg)
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Being left handed as a surgeon is more of a challenge / encumbrance than most other professions - it's not impossible, obviously, but most training and instruments are set up for right handedness.
I don't think Gerry McCann is a surgeon.
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I
I would hold a torch in my right hand, and I'm right handed if that helps.
(https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/zz0505d.jpg)
Watch on the left, so right handed generally.
Always though Gerry was an actual surgeon. Thanks.
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I don't think Gerry McCann is a surgeon.
He isn't... He is a physician... I thought you would have known that
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He isn't... He is a physician... I thought you would have known that
I know exactly what cardiologists do and don't do. I was being polite.
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He isn't... He is a physician... I thought you would have known that
She was answering my question, it was me who didn't know.
My point in establishing this, is that it's really difficult and uncomfortable to throw a child over your shoulder and carry them in your non-dominant arm. So walking down aircraft steps, or walking down a street, the habit remains.
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He isn't... He is a physician... I thought you would have known that
I think Amaral started the rumour that Gerry was a surgeon with his 'he cuts up bodies before breakfast' in his book, the man didn't even know what Gerry did for a living.
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I think Amaral started the rumour that Gerry was a surgeon with his 'he cuts up bodies before breakfast' in his book, the man didn't even know what Gerry did for a living.
Sounds like a decent read. Any chance of a cite?
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She was answering my question, it was me who didn't know.
My point in establishing this, is that it's really difficult and uncomfortable to throw a child over your shoulder and carry them in your non-dominant arm. So walking down aircraft steps, or walking down a street, the habit remains.
I was answering gunits post. She said she didn't think he was a surgeon... That isn't definite ..I gave the definitive answer...
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I agree that the timeline and physical checks being claimed are made up for effect.IMO.
The time line was scrutinised and seen to be at odds with a reality scenario. Tanner walking past Gerry seeing Tanner man who just happened to jemmie a shutter, open a window when daddy was in the flat, and just left- shear fantasy. This is what kills the abduction theory.
There is nothing wrong in thinking MBM came to harm just before or just after the parents left.
A hiding place? as has been mentioned the body could have been moved several times. A Little girls body was hidden in a loft in the UK by step dad-and then moved.
So everyone lied about physically checking on their children? Well that can't be said about Jane and Russell their child was ill and they took it in turns to check her. You need everyone to be lying so that they are all guilty, solves having to debate about the case doesn't it.
If Gerry had been talking to Jeremy looking down the road rather than across to the pavement area, then yes Jane could easily have walked past them when they were engrossed in conversation. I've walked straight past family members who have been talking and they haven't seen me but I have seen them. Jemmy a shutter? Well its you who is saying that, I say it was opened from inside, but there you go. A man managed to get into apartments even though the apartments were locked, assaulted children with the parents in the apartment at the time. So how do you find it a fantasy that the abductor could have been in the apartment when Gerry entered it? Personally, I think the abductor slipped back out through the front door having been warned by an accomplice when Gerry entered the apartment, opened the window after Gerry left, so what do you say about that?
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I was answering gunits post. She said she didn't think he was a surgeon... That isn't definite ..I gave the definitive answer...
I believe you are missing the nuance. The 'I think' was a polite prefix; a semi-conscious verbal / written softening of the blow - an attempt to not appear over-bearing or abrupt supplying information that corrects the recipient. I got it; I understood the meaning.
But it's a good conversation to have, so thanks.
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I believe you are missing the nuance. The 'I think' was a polite prefix; a semi-conscious verbal / written softening of the blow - an attempt to not appear over-bearing or abrupt supplying information that corrects the recipient. I got it; I understood the meaning.
But it's a good conversation to have, so thanks.
It could be either I'm sure you will agree... I clarified it... No need for 20 posts on such an unimportant point
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GM is a consultant cardiologist according to their Madeleine Fund website.
https://www.cardiosmart.org/Heart-Basics/What-is-a-Cardiologist
Moved into the world of academia as a Professor in Cardiology.
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It could be either I'm sure you will agree... I clarified it... No need for 20 posts on such an unimportant point
You started this conversation. But I think G Unit confirmed my take on it.
But it's all positive. Great stuff.
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Moved into the world of academia as a Professor in Cardiology. Probably a good idea as it removed him from public scrutiny in his professional life
To be precise he's a Professor of Cardiac Imaging and an Honorary Consultant Cardiologist.
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To be precise he's a Professor of Cardiac Imaging and an Honorary Consultant Cardiologist.
The question was... Was he a surgeon.. No he's a physician.... Is it important to get to 20 posts on this
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“ In the Maddie case someone lies”
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2019/05/francisco-moita-flores-in-maddie-case.html
Not one but a bunch of liars.
There is only one liar who has a criminal conviction for it ... and that is Amaral who has come up with more theories about where and how Madeleine was buried ... not one of which has any connection with reality.
From your link ... "But there are things we know." One of the many lies as those who waited expectantly for Amaral to produce his "Ace" will know.
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There is only one liar who has a criminal conviction for it ... and that is Amaral who has come up with more theories about where and how Madeleine was buried ... not one of which has any connection with reality.
From your link ... "But there are things we know." One of the many lies as those who waited expectantly for Amaral to produce his "Ace" will know.
Amazing how you always come back to this.
Must have been a godsend the day Team McCann dug that little gem up
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Amazing how you always come back to this.
Must have been a godsend the day Team McCann dug that little gem up
Team McCann neither "dug up" or disposed of a small child's remains anywhere let alone in Praia da Luz. I lifted the quote I used from the off topic "lying" link provided by Youp69 of which reading reveals those who are in total denial of anything approaching truth.
Snipped from that link also ...
"There was never a network of paedophiles, abductors ... That never existed in Portugal, it is an invention that has been made to protect the parents of Maddie and their group of friends."
Aye ... right !!
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Team McCann neither "dug up" or disposed of a small child's remains anywhere let alone in Praia da Luz. I lifted the quote I used from the off topic "lying" link provided by Youp69 of which reading reveals those who are in total denial of anything approaching truth.
Snipped from that link also ...
"There was never a network of paedophiles, abductors ... That never existed in Portugal, it is an invention that has been made to protect the parents of Maddie and their group of friends."
Aye ... right !!
So you believe.
I'm yet to see any proof that they didn't.
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“ In the Maddie case someone lies”
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2019/05/francisco-moita-flores-in-maddie-case.html
Not one but a bunch of liars.
There can be no doubt testimony provided by some members of T9 simply doesn't stack up. But is the reason for this that they were involved in MM's disappearance or they wanted to play down the fact they were leaving the children 'home alone' in unsecured holiday accommodation? I think the latter but I can see how others think the former.
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There can be no doubt testimony provided by some members of T9 simply doesn't stack up. But is the reason for this that they were involved in MM's disappearance or they wanted to play down the fact they were leaving the children 'home alone' in unsecured holiday accommodation? I think the latter but I can see how others think the former.
And I think it's probably down to poor translation. Gerry says in his first statement that the sliding door was not locked.... So admits straight away the apt was not secure
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And I think it's probably down to poor translation. Gerry says in his first statement that the sliding door was not locked.... So admits straight away the apt was not secure
But we can see with our own eyes and hear with our own ears contradictions and inconsistencies that can't be written off as translation errors.
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But we can see with our own eyes and hear with our own ears contradictions and inconsistencies that can't be written off as translation errors.
Of course we can, but its a glib excuse that rolls easily off the tongue
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But we can see with our own eyes and hear with our own ears contradictions and inconsistencies that can't be written off as translation errors.
In your opinion.... Which are the translation errors that Kate referred to... That Colin Sutton referred to and that Rebelo was concerned about
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In your opinion.... Which are the translation errors that Kate referred to... That Colin Sutton referred to and that Rebelo was concerned about
No it isn't my opinion we can see/hear for ourselves by reading KM's PB and listening to T9 talk on various audio clips that they make contradictory and inconsistent comments.
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No it isn't my opinion we can see/hear for ourselves by reading KM's PB and listening to T9 talk on various audio clips that they make contradictory and inconsistent comments.
it is your opinion.....could you provide an audio clip...or KMs book to show contradictions
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it is your opinion.....could you provide an audio clip...or KMs book to show contradictions
I'll start up a new thread in the near future highlighting all the contradictions and inconsistencies which I choose to believe are down to T9 fearing prosecution about child neglect and/or feelings of embarrassment, guilt and shame about the way they left their children night after night for hours at a time but I can see with no body/suspects others think differently.
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Of course we can, but its a glib excuse that rolls easily off the tongue
Yet the next day without the need for translation errors Trish Cameron GM's sister tells us the front door was lying open,window has been tampered with,and the shutters had been jemmied or what ever its called.
"Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/6623127.stm
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Yet the next day without the need for translation errors Trish Cameron GM's sister tells us the front door was lying open,window has been tampered with,and the shutters had been jemmied or what ever its called.
"Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/6623127.stm
Good points barrier.
And if anyone wants to make comment about whether the shutters can be opened from outside can it be from a forensic scientist please or the manufactures booklet/instructions. In fact does a copy exist of the manufacturers booklet re the shutter under question?
Thinking it through logically I can't see what the need would be to raise them from outside? Surely they are designed for warm countries whereby windows can be opened allowing air/light in and keep intruders out?
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Yet the next day without the need for translation errors Trish Cameron GM's sister tells us the front door was lying open,window has been tampered with,and the shutters had been jemmied or what ever its called.
"Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/6623127.stm
That is not a quote from G or K.... It's second hand
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Good points barrier.
And if anyone wants to make comment about whether the shutters can be opened from outside can it be from a forensic scientist please or the manufactures booklet/instructions. In fact does a copy exist of the manufacturers booklet re the shutter under question?
Thinking it through logically I can't see what the need would be to raise them from outside? Surely they are designed for warm countries whereby windows can be opened allowing air/light in and keep intruders out?
If they can be opened from the outside they fail in the security stand point if the intention is security,but its a good point you raise about airing the room.
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Good points barrier.
And if anyone wants to make comment about whether the shutters can be opened from outside can it be from a forensic scientist please or the manufactures booklet/instructions. In fact does a copy exist of the manufacturers booklet re the shutter under question?
Thinking it through logically I can't see what the need would be to raise them from outside? Surely they are designed for warm countries whereby windows can be opened allowing air/light in and keep intruders out?
I would say it's an established fact the shutters could be opened from the outside... Two people have confirmed it
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If they can be opened from the outside they fail in the security stand point if the intention is security,but its a good point you raise about airing the room.
I think the mccanns thought they were security but petermac and heriberto have shown that's not the case
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That is not a quote from G or K.... It's second hand
And? its more reliable than the thrice translated files in that case,from your point of view after reading the files you reckon an abduction is the likely outcome,yet these same files are the ones you say cannot be relied upon,what'll it be?
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And? its more reliable than the thrice translated files in that case,from your point of view after reading the files you reckon an abduction is the likely outcome,yet these same files are the ones you say cannot be relied upon,what'll it be?
A second hand statement is not necessarily reliable... It's hearsay
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And? its more reliable than the thrice translated files in that case,from your point of view after reading the files you reckon an abduction is the likely outcome,yet these same files are the ones you say cannot be relied upon,what'll it be?
They are only not to be relied on when its something something detrimental to the McCanns. You should know that by now
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And? its more reliable than the thrice translated files in that case,from your point of view after reading the files you reckon an abduction is the likely outcome,yet these same files are the ones you say cannot be relied upon,what'll it be?
You are just plain wrong.. Abduction is most likely based on all the evidence.. Not just the files... And not just imo
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Brietta,
Why did you delete the link from my posting, but use it’s content to react.
I called that earlier abuse of power, without any explanation. You seems to love it and obsessed by it.
A kind of stalking users and members who has different views.
As I said before: Freedom of speech as a human right doesn’t exist. You speak or you don’t.
Another link to be deleted if you .........
For those readers who are interested in the complexity of lying, misleading and language.
http://d-scholarship.pitt.edu/21256/1/Knachel_Dissertation.pdf
You are mistaken.
The link you provided from which I quoted in subsequent posts is still there if you care to check.
No apology for your intemperate post is desired or expected ... just make sure of your facts before making unfounded allegations.
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No it isn't my opinion we can see/hear for ourselves by reading KM's PB and listening to T9 talk on various audio clips that they make contradictory and inconsistent comments.
How often have you heard audio clips from the McCann friend who holidayed with them? I genuinely request your sources because apart from Jane Tanner I think they are as scarce as hens teeth.
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I'll start up a new thread in the near future highlighting all the contradictions and inconsistencies which I choose to believe are down to T9 fearing prosecution about child neglect and/or feelings of embarrassment, guilt and shame about the way they left their children night after night for hours at a time but I can see with no body/suspects others think differently.
That will be novel.
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Yet the next day without the need for translation errors Trish Cameron GM's sister tells us the front door was lying open,window has been tampered with,and the shutters had been jemmied or what ever its called.
"Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/6623127.stm
Uh huh ... but just to keep it on topic did she happen to mention a good deposition site in Luz for disposing of her dearly loved niece ?
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A second hand statement is not necessarily reliable... It's hearsay
So we can question Russell's statement that the Portuguese police said they wanted the timelines; the McCanns statement that Madeleine asked where they were when the twins/her and Sean cried; Kate's account of what the Consul said about child sex abuse; Kate's friend's statements about their conversation at the table about the unlocked patio door; Gerry's statement (to her) about the lack of helicopters for searching and all the newspaper accounts which quote 'a friend' or 'a source'? Cool.
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I would say it's an established fact the shutters could be opened from the outside... Two people have confirmed it
And the two people are?
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Good points barrier.
And if anyone wants to make comment about whether the shutters can be opened from outside can it be from a forensic scientist please or the manufactures booklet/instructions. In fact does a copy exist of the manufacturers booklet re the shutter under question?
Thinking it through logically I can't see what the need would be to raise them from outside? Surely they are designed for warm countries whereby windows can be opened allowing air/light in and keep intruders out?
I believe more modern ones have a dual purpose which includes security features. Probably something to do with the ease of opening them from outside allowing access during the spate of burglaries in the Algarve.
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How often have you heard audio clips from the McCann friend who holidayed with them? I genuinely request your sources because apart from Jane Tanner I think they are as scarce as hens teeth.
We can hear JT and MO on the reconstruction vid.
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And the two people are?
Opened.
Opened and kept open.
Opened and kept open freely.
So if they're so easy to open, and it's an established fact, then why would they need to be forced?
It's the old 'Back Street Boys' fallacy - I want it that way...and that way....and that way.
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So we can question Russell's statement that the Portuguese police said they wanted the timelines; the McCanns statement that Madeleine asked where they were when the twins/her and Sean cried; Kate's account of what the Consul said about child sex abuse; Kate's friend's statements about their conversation at the table about the unlocked patio door; Gerry's statement (to her) about the lack of helicopters for searching and all the newspaper accounts which quote 'a friend' or 'a source'? Cool.
we should question everything....i thought you understood that...you just dont seem to want t question anytghing that contradicts your view...ie...you are not openminded as you think.
A simple point...do you acccept there could be mistakes in the statements...are you openminded enough to answer the question....i think not
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And the two people are?
petermac and heriberto
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I believe more modern ones have a dual purpose which includes security features. Probably something to do with the ease of opening them from outside allowing access during the spate of burglaries in the Algarve.
I can't see any reason for them opening outside.
Surely someone here has identified the make/model of shutter and obtained a copy of the manufacturers operating manual and uploaded it to the forum?
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Opened.
Opened and kept open.
Opened and kept open freely.
So if they're so easy to open, and it's an established fact, then why would they need to be forced?
It's the old 'Back Street Boys' fallacy - I want it that way...and that way....and that way.
they can be opened from the outside...gerry was unaware of this and assumed they had been forced...its so simple..
once openeed ...open window....left unlocked by cleaners....raise strap to keep window securely open...as demonstrated on video by heriberto
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petermac and heriberto
Who are petermac and heriberto?
Who was the guy with the bushy tache that featured in a vid with GA re the front door? I think he was a PJ forensic scientist or similar?
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We can hear JT and MO on the reconstruction vid.
Is that really it ??? What reconstruction video ???
A direct link would be appreciated and either what you think they said or a transcript of what they said.
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they can be opened from the outside...gerry was unaware of this and assumed they had been forced...its so simple..
once openeed ...open window....left unlocked by cleaners....raise strap to keep window securely open...as demonstrated on video by heriberto
Manufactures operating manual please.
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I can't see any reason for them opening outside.
Surely someone here has identified the make/model of shutter and obtained a copy of the manufacturers operating manual and uploaded it to the forum?
time to be alittle less closed mind...heriberto has made a video...as has petermac showing the shutters can be opened from the outside
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they can be opened from the outside...gerry was unaware of this and assumed they had been forced...its so simple..
once openeed ...open window....left unlocked by cleaners....raise strap to keep window securely open...as demonstrated on video by heriberto
Nope. Not a controlled experiment. Licking different windows is not licking the exact window, as it was at the time.
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Manufactures operating manual please.
you wont be getting anyore...if you want to deny the truth ..its up to you. perhaps gunit can expalin who the two people are...I cant be bothered
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from gerrys statement 4/5..
The side door leading to the living room was closed, which as previously stated, was never left locked.
so Gerry is supposed to have previously said an internal door was closed ...but never locked...sounds like the interpreter getting confused
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“ In the Maddie case someone lies”
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2019/05/francisco-moita-flores-in-maddie-case.html
Not one but a bunch of liars.
The man’s an idiot, imo.
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Nope. Not a controlled experiment. Licking different windows is not licking the exact window, as it was at the time.
You are mistaken. One demonstration was conducted using the shutter at apartment 5A unless he was lying; but like Gerry he didn't understand the technique for making it stay up. Heri's demonstration used the same type of shutter and mechanism as in 5A, but in common with apartment burglars, he had worked out the technique to use.
We've all seen it working and its really quite simple when you know how.
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Call someone Poindexter.....instant deletion and warning. Depends who you are. Fact.
Swear and call people on here assholes, no problemo if you’re Pathfinder. Fact.
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No it isn't my opinion we can see/hear for ourselves by reading KM's PB and listening to T9 talk on various audio clips that they make contradictory and inconsistent comments.
So do some of the other witnesses who aren’t part of the Tapas group, does that mean they are all lying too?
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I can't see any reason for them opening outside.
Surely someone here has identified the make/model of shutter and obtained a copy of the manufacturers operating manual and uploaded it to the forum?
Your problem is ....and i can see why you cannot accept the fact that the shutter can be opened from the outside...is taht the open shutter kicks your theory securely into touch
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The man’s an idiot, imo.
I agree; as can be seen from the transcript of his interview but he did say ...
Snip
Theories are for romances and movies, but a criminal investigation is very pragmatic, very practical, very empirical, and is not compatible with moral judgments. Those who theorize so much instead of focusing on the facts it's because they do not know how to investigate. Moita Flores
Pity he didn't mention that to his pal at the time when it mattered.
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So we can question Russell's statement that the Portuguese police said they wanted the timelines; the McCanns statement that Madeleine asked where they were when the twins/her and Sean cried; Kate's account of what the Consul said about child sex abuse; Kate's friend's statements about their conversation at the table about the unlocked patio door; Gerry's statement (to her) about the lack of helicopters for searching and all the newspaper accounts which quote 'a friend' or 'a source'? Cool.
You already have a million times before, why would you need permission all of a sudden?
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You are mistaken. One demonstration was conducted using the shutter at apartment 5A unless he was lying; but like Gerry he didn't understand the technique for making it stay up. Heri's demonstration used the same type of shutter and mechanism as in 5A, but in common with apartment burglars, he had worked out the technique to use.
We've all seen it working and its really quite simple when you know how.
You are mistaken. It's not a contemporaneous test.
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You are mistaken. It's not a contemporaneous test.
Oh come on. So basically you’re saying the shutter could not be open from the outside because there’s no footage of it being open from the outside prior to Madeleine’s abduction?
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we should question everything....i thought you understood that...you just dont seem to want t question anytghing that contradicts your view...ie...you are not openminded as you think.
A simple point...do you acccept there could be mistakes in the statements...are you openminded enough to answer the question....i think not
If the interpreters made serious mistakes when translating the statements there was an opportunity to correct them when they were read back. If the correction was denied, then signatures could be withheld. Giving statements to CRG wasn't a solution because it left the original, signed statements with the authorities who had every reason to believe they were accurate and no reason to believe they weren't. The McCanns also had access to diplomats and police people from the UK who could have helped if they were convinced their words had been written down incorrectly.
The fact that they did none of those things lead me to the conclusion that no serious mistakes were made.
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If Flores is an idiot, how would you classify Dr. Christian Ludke, a German criminal Psychologist ?
The link has besides the book of Amaral also an interview about the parents and Ludke suggested that the death of Madeleine was planned in the months before the holiday. The interview was translated and was published September 7 2007 on Welt Online.
DSM-5 - Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.( classification)
I am curious to hear your answer after you read the interview.
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2011/05/mccannfiles-exclusive-goncalo-amaral.html
Please don’t pretend to be interested in anything I have to say on the subject.
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Please don’t pretend to be interested in anything I have to say on the subject.
I doubt there is much left to say anyway once the libellous comment is cut out.
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If the interpreters made serious mistakes when translating the statements there was an opportunity to correct them when they were read back. If the correction was denied, then signatures could be withheld. Giving statements to CRG wasn't a solution because it left the original, signed statements with the authorities who had every reason to believe they were accurate and no reason to believe they weren't. The McCanns also had access to diplomats and police people from the UK who could have helped if they were convinced their words had been written down incorrectly.
The fact that they did none of those things lead me to the conclusion that no serious mistakes were made.
How do you know how accurately they were read back.... You are making an assumption
Your conclusion is simply your opinion.... An assumption
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So everyone lied about physically checking on their children? Well that can't be said about Jane and Russell their child was ill and they took it in turns to check her. You need everyone to be lying so that they are all guilty, solves having to debate about the case doesn't it.
If Gerry had been talking to Jeremy looking down the road rather than across to the pavement area, then yes Jane could easily have walked past them when they were engrossed in conversation. I've walked straight past family members who have been talking and they haven't seen me but I have seen them. Jemmy a shutter? Well its you who is saying that, I say it was opened from inside, but there you go. A man managed to get into apartments even though the apartments were locked, assaulted children with the parents in the apartment at the time. So how do you find it a fantasy that the abductor could have been in the apartment when Gerry entered it? Personally, I think the abductor slipped back out through the front door having been warned by an accomplice when Gerry entered the apartment, opened the window after Gerry left, so what do you say about that?
So everyone lied about physically checking on their children?
Did they all lie about that, really,? thanks for sharing that. I was talking about the physical checks on MBM but read it any ole way you like.
Well that can't be said about Jane and Russell their child was ill and they took it in turns to check her.
Yes, they are the bestes parents keeping an eye on their daughter by affording her the luxury of their company-going back and forth to check on their ill daughter.
You need everyone to be lying so that they are all guilty. That is very true
solves having to debate about the case doesn't it. Does it? is there a debate somewhere about this? I was of the impression, with all the deletions, that there is no recognised debate. It is merely who you chose to believe.
If Gerry had been talking to Jeremy looking down the road rather than across to the pavement area, then yes Jane could easily have walked past them when they were engrossed in conversation.
yes ,so?
I've walked straight past family members who have been talking and they haven't seen me but I have seen them.
Yes ,so?
Jemmy a shutter? Well its you who is saying that, Me? no, you are confused I never said it, I wasn't there. It was Gerrys/friend and family members who made that claim via Kate and Gerry. well documented on TV.
I say it was opened from inside, but there you go. You can say what you like,it makes no diference to what evidence says. no one else who ran to the bedroom saw this jemmied shutter.
A man managed to get into apartments even though the apartments were locked, assaulted children with the parents in the apartment at the time. Where is the evidence of these instances?
So how do you find it a fantasy that the abductor could have been in the apartment when Gerry entered it?
Because Gerry would have seen the jemmied shutter and open window Duh!
Personally, I think the abductor slipped back out through the front door having been warned by an accomplice when Gerry entered the apartment, opened the window after Gerry left, so what do you say about that?
Nothing. Why would I care about your thoughts?
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How do you know how accurately they were read back.... You are making an assumption
Your conclusion is simply your opinion.... An assumption
Are you saying that the interpreter didn't read back what was written?
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Are you saying that the interpreter didn't read back what was written?
That is a possibility G.
- The interpreter maybe didn't speak Portuguese,but made it look like they did.
AMARAL held a gun at their heads and demand they sign or else
M
aybe they function at a level of stupidity we didn't account for
And when they found out what was said in the files they sued the interpreter for talking sh!t to them and getting them to sign it. Or maybe none of that happened and they did agree with what was said,although with hindsight after scrutiny of an unexpected level they had to rethink, and well... actually conveniently forget important bits. blaming their 'trauma'
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So everyone lied about physically checking on their children?
Did they all lie about that, really,? thanks for sharing that. I was talking about the physical checks on MBM but read it any ole way you like.
Well that can't be said about Jane and Russell their child was ill and they took it in turns to check her.
Yes, they are the bestes parents keeping an eye on their daughter by affording her the luxury of their company-going back and forth to check on their ill daughter.
You need everyone to be lying so that they are all guilty. That is very true
solves having to debate about the case doesn't it. Does it? is there a debate somewhere about this? I was of the impression, with all the deletions, that there is no recognised debate. It is merely who you chose to believe.
If Gerry had been talking to Jeremy looking down the road rather than across to the pavement area, then yes Jane could easily have walked past them when they were engrossed in conversation.
yes ,so?
I've walked straight past family members who have been talking and they haven't seen me but I have seen them.
Yes ,so?
Jemmy a shutter? Well its you who is saying that, Me? no, you are confused I never said it, I wasn't there. It was Gerrys/friend and family members who made that claim via Kate and Gerry. well documented on TV.
I say it was opened from inside, but there you go. You can say what you like,it makes no diference to what evidence says. no one else who ran to the bedroom saw this jemmied shutter.
A man managed to get into apartments even though the apartments were locked, assaulted children with the parents in the apartment at the time. Where is the evidence of these instances?
So how do you find it a fantasy that the abductor could have been in the apartment when Gerry entered it?
Because Gerry would have seen the jemmied shutter and open window Duh!
Personally, I think the abductor slipped back out through the front door having been warned by an accomplice when Gerry entered the apartment, opened the window after Gerry left, so what do you say about that?
Nothing. Why would I care about your thoughts?
So innocent children are lying now are they?
You don't care about my thoughts as you have no come back, you can't debate about what could have happened, all your posts are about whooshing curtains, how Madeleine was left in her bed etc. all of which have been proved to be inconsequential.
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That is a possibility G.
- The interpreter maybe didn't speak Portuguese,but made it look like they did.
AMARAL held a gun at their heads and demand they sign or else
M
aybe they function at a level of stupidity we didn't account for
And when they found out what was said in the files they sued the interpreter for talking sh!t to them and getting them to sign it. Or maybe none of that happened and they did agree with what was said,although with hindsight after scrutiny of an unexpected level they had to rethink, and well... actually conveniently forget important bits. blaming their 'trauma'
Trauma, yes you are forgetting that, but in your eyes they wouldn't be suffering trauma after finding their child missing would they? You obviously would have jumped up and got on with life straight after finding your child missing, taken by who knows who.
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Please keep to the topic guys and cut the snide remarks otherwise I will impose sanctions.
And by the way, the mass deletion of post content by any member is seen as disruption and will result in permanent account deletion.
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Trauma, yes you are forgetting that, but in your eyes they wouldn't be suffering trauma after finding their child missing would they? You obviously would have jumped up and got on with life straight after finding your child missing, taken by who knows who.
Are you suggesting that they were capable of recounting the events but incapable of noticing if a different version was read back to them?
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Are you suggesting that they were capable of recounting the events but incapable of noticing if a different version was read back to them?
We don't know what was read back to then and in what detail.... You are making assumptions
Looking at gerrys interpreter it appears that a Russian is translating English spoken with a heavy scottish accent into Portuguese then reading back we know what... But English perhaps with a Russian accent
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We don't know what was read back to then and in what detail.... You are making assumptions
Looking at gerrys interpreter it appears that a Russian is translating English spoken with a heavy scottish accent into Portuguese then reading back we know what... But English perhaps with a Russian accent
No, I'm not making assumptions, I'm questioning someone else's suggestion that traumatised people could talk but not listen.
Being named Natalia doesn't mean someone is Russian.
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No, I'm not making assumptions, I'm questioning someone else's suggestion that traumatised people could talk but not listen.
Being named Natalia doesn't mean someone is Russian.
Avakoff sounds Russian to me
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I doubt there is much left to say anyway once the libellous comment is cut out.
Come on guys, let's stick to the the rules - no goading.
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Avakoff sounds Russian to me
But Alice doesn't. I don't think the alleged nationality of the interpreters has any bearing on their skills or motivations anyway.
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But Alice doesn't. I don't think the alleged nationality of the interpreters has any bearing on their skills or motivations anyway.
I think it does.. We don't know how professional these interpreters were.
So can you tell me if the statement was read back accurately
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But Alice doesn't. I don't think the alleged nationality of the interpreters has any bearing on their skills or motivations anyway.
It is virtually impossible to directly translate any foreign language into English.
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It is virtually impossible to directly translate any foreign language into English.
As I am teaching Spanish to a 70 year old, 2 40 year olds, one 9 year old and one 4 year old I would have to disagree.
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I think it does.. We don't know how professional these interpreters were.
So can you tell me if the statement was read back accurately
So you think casting aspersions is OK even though you don't know if they're unfounded or not? Perhaps you could attempt to find out?
The signatures on the statements confirmed their accuracy, and if they didn't then the fault lies with the statement makers, no-one else imo.
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As I am teaching Spanish to a 70 year old, 2 40 year olds, one 9 year old and one 4 year old I would have to disagree.
Then you are wrong. I manage with French. But some words are not directly translatable.
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So you think casting aspersions is OK even though you don't know if they're unfounded or not? Perhaps you could attempt to find out?
The signatures on the statements confirmed their accuracy, and if they didn't then the fault lies with the statement makers, no-one else imo.
That is just silly.
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As I am teaching Spanish to a 70 year old, 2 40 year olds, one 9 year old and one 4 year old I would have to disagree.
that does not make you any authority on transaltions...particularly verbal ones rather than the transaltion of the written word
I remember going into a shop in spain and reading a local guide book which was in english...the english was appalling...so I would disagree with you.
We have no record of what the mcCanns actually said to the PJ ...only a non verbatim translation. If you want to beleive thats 100% accurate thats up to you...it would be a mackeral if it was ...that was an intended mistake to show how easy the spoken worrd could be easily mistranslated...
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So you think casting aspersions is OK even though you don't know if they're unfounded or not? Perhaps you could attempt to find out?
The signatures on the statements confirmed their accuracy, and if they didn't then the fault lies with the statement makers, no-one else imo.
the signatures on the statements do not confirm their accuracy..thats an obvious mistake by you...particularly as those who signed them have confirmed their innaccuracy.
im not casting aspersions on any individual...rebelo questioned their accuracy as did Sutton..
The fault lies with the inept way the statements were taken
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So you think casting aspersions is OK even though you don't know if they're unfounded or not? Perhaps you could attempt to find out?
The signatures on the statements confirmed their accuracy, and if they didn't then the fault lies with the statement makers, no-one else imo.
i posted a sentence from gerys satement where he refers to an internal door...that was closed but not locked. Did the internal doors have locks...its seems an obvious error in translation to me
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Then you are wrong. I manage with French. But some words are not directly translatable.
Such as?
The ideas that exist in the human brain are near universal, so you get them expressed in most languages.
French is simpler than English.
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i posted a sentence from gerys satement where he refers to an internal door...that was closed but not locked. Did the internal doors have locks...its seems an obvious error in translation to me
It was described as 'entrada por uma porta vidrada de correr que estava sempra descancada e se localiza lateralment a casa' which means 'entrance through a sliding glass door that was always open and located laterally the house'. How many internal sliding glass doors were there again?
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that does not make you any authority on transaltions...particularly verbal ones rather than the transaltion of the written word
I remember going into a shop in spain and reading a local guide book which was in english...the english was appalling...so I would disagree with you.
We have no record of what the mcCanns actually said to the PJ ...only a non verbatim translation. If you want to beleive thats 100% accurate thats up to you...it would be a mackeral if it was ...that was an intended mistake to show how easy the spoken worrd could be easily mistranslated...
Your English is appalling, yet I still understand you.
Did the McCanns sign anything to state that mackeral was correct?
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Are you suggesting that they were capable of recounting the events but incapable of noticing if a different version was read back to them?
Didn't recount it very well as Gerry made a mistake, trauma as a weird effect on people.
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Your English is appalling, yet I still understand you.
Did the McCanns sign anything to state that mackeral was correct?
Stooping low to personal insults.. As expected..
What proof do you have that those statements are accurate... You have some evidence but not proof. You are simply assuming they are accurate.. It's about time you realised that... But I see you as being totally closed minded to anything that contradicts your bias
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It was described as 'entrada por uma porta vidrada de correr que estava sempra descancada e se localiza lateralment a casa' which means 'entrance through a sliding glass door that was always open and located laterally the house'. How many internal sliding glass doors were there again?
You obviously are not familiar with the line in the statement I quoted
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Stooping low to personal insults.. As expected..
What proof do you have that those statements are accurate... You have some evidence but not proof. You are simply assuming they are accurate.. It's about time you realised that... But I see you as being totally closed minded to anything that contradicts your bias
As I made no mention of the statements, your English is baffling, to say the least.
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Your English is appalling, yet I still understand you.
Did the McCanns sign anything to state that mackeral was correct?
Sign anything? You mean like a statement?
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Such as?
The ideas that exist in the human brain are near universal, so you get them expressed in most languages.
French is simpler than English.
French is simpler than English? You can't even speak good English.
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As I made no mention of the statements, your English is baffling, to say the least.
then you are easily baffled....the whole translation discussion relates to the statements...this is the Madeleine Mccann forum...we discuss the case
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French is simpler than English? You can't even speak good English.
Goading.
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It was described as 'entrada por uma porta vidrada de correr que estava sempra descancada e se localiza lateralment a casa' which means 'entrance through a sliding glass door that was always open and located laterally the house'. How many internal sliding glass doors were there again?
The dictionary definition of "laterally" is "1. at, towards, or from the side or sides; sideways."use slide steps to move laterally"
So we've got 'the sliding glass door which was always open''. The problem appears to lie with 'and is located laterally the house'. giving a bit of a problem regarding exact location.
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Goading.
goading.
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Goat-ding.
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goading.
I spotted it first, but glad you agree. Let's both report it.
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I spotted it first, but glad you agree. Let's both report it.
Ooh lets.
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Your English is appalling, yet I still understand you.
Did the McCanns sign anything to state that mackeral was correct?
Goading.
Report this one too!
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Goading.
Report this one too!
Only reporting the mods, who should be setting an example.
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Only reporting the mods, who should be setting an example.
You might be closer than you think.
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Only reporting the mods, who should be setting an example.
SIL is a mod in all but name, certainly a protected member, never gets points despite the endless goading and abuse.
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SIL is a mod in all but name, certainly a protected member, never gets points despite the endless goading and abuse.
But he can't delete, modify or apply points.
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May I remind everyone of the thread topic:
Re: Feasibility Of Disposing Of A Small Child's Body In The PDL Area
Any further off-topic posts will be removed on sight.
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May I remind everyone of the thread topic:
Re: Feasibility Of Disposing Of A Small Child's Body In The PDL Area
Any further off-topic posts will be removed on sight.
theres nothing to discuss..due to the number of abandoned wells...i believe its in the hundreds...it would be very easy
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thers nothing to discus...due to the numeber of abandoned wells...i believe its in the hundreds...it would be very easy
Investigators spend hours and millions on investigating. Are we really to believe in this case they didn't shove a camera/scanner down the 000's of wells in PDL?
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Investigators spend hours and millions on investigating. Are we really to believe in this case they didn't shove a camera/scanner down the 000's of wells in PDL?
SY have to get permission to investigate anything.....afaiaa....there are hundreds of wells that have never been checked...there are simply too many....perhaps someone can provide a cite
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8115.msg399917#msg399917
Sunday Night claims new breakthrough in Madeleine Mccann disappearance
Real Life
Experts say Madeleine McCann’s body is almost impossible to find
news.com.au
April 24, 2017 1:39pm
WE’LL likely never know what happened to Madeleine McCann because she may have been dumped in one of hundreds of ancient wells not far from the spot she disappeared, experts claim.
The remote area around the Ocean Club resort in Portugal, where the three-year-old British girl vanished from her holiday apartment in 2007, has been described as the perfect place to hide a body, those connected to the case say.
“It’s almost impossible,” retired Scotland Yard detective Colin Sutton told Channel Seven Sunday Night program of Praia da Luz, in the Algarve region of Portugal, where the McCann’s were staying.
“It would be impossible without specific information or intelligence which enabled you to focus a search in a particular area.
“It is a large area, with a very low population, of scrubland, of ancient wells. There are areas there where humans probably don’t go from one year to one decade even to the next. It would be really easy to secrete something there and be really confident that it wouldn’t be found.”
The area is home to as many as 500 wells and has been described by forensics expert Professor Dave Barclay as “the most hide-a-body-able place I’ve ever been in my life.”
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Goading.
No one who has any conception of English ever says Simpler. This is the mark of someone who has no real knowledge of English.
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SY have to get permission to investigate anything.....afaiaa....there are hundreds of wells that have never been checked...there are simply too many....perhaps someone can provide a cite
Davel did I mention SY?
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Davel did I mention SY?
You mentioned spending millions... Have the pj spent millions
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You mentioned spending millions... Have the pj spent millions
Are the PJ interested in spending millions and should they be?
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No one who has any conception of English ever says Simpler. This is the mark of someone who has no real knowledge of English.
Simpler? As in '...yes Karen, they were simpler times before we murdered Bob and Tracy'.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8115.msg399917#msg399917
Sunday Night claims new breakthrough in Madeleine Mccann disappearance
Real Life
Experts say Madeleine McCann’s body is almost impossible to find
news.com.au
April 24, 2017 1:39pm
WE’LL likely never know what happened to Madeleine McCann because she may have been dumped in one of hundreds of ancient wells not far from the spot she disappeared, experts claim.
The remote area around the Ocean Club resort in Portugal, where the three-year-old British girl vanished from her holiday apartment in 2007, has been described as the perfect place to hide a body, those connected to the case say.
“It’s almost impossible,” retired Scotland Yard detective Colin Sutton told Channel Seven Sunday Night program of Praia da Luz, in the Algarve region of Portugal, where the McCann’s were staying.
“It would be impossible without specific information or intelligence which enabled you to focus a search in a particular area.
“It is a large area, with a very low population, of scrubland, of ancient wells. There are areas there where humans probably don’t go from one year to one decade even to the next. It would be really easy to secrete something there and be really confident that it wouldn’t be found.”
The area is home to as many as 500 wells and has been described by forensics expert Professor Dave Barclay as “the most hide-a-body-able place I’ve ever been in my life.”
No disrespect to Dave Barclay (I've quoted him often in this case) but he's not a search expert. What does search expert Mark Harrison have to say about the wells?
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You mentioned spending millions... Have the pj spent millions
According to GA the searches were unprecedented in Portugal.
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You mentioned spending millions... Have the pj spent millions
I would suggest the original investigation cost several hundred of thousands, if not in to the millions of Euro.
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No disrespect to Dave Barclay (I've quoted him often in this case) but he's not a search expert. What does search expert Mark Harrison have to say about the wells?
I think your mind is closed and you refuse to accept anything that goes against your mindset
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Simpler? As in '...yes Karen, they were simpler times before we murdered Bob and Tracy'.
More simple, Sweetie. Although I can't say that I care about your ignorance.
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According to GA the searches were unprecedented in Portugal.
I don't take any notice of amaral the convicted liar
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No disrespect to Dave Barclay (I've quoted him often in this case) but he's not a search expert. What does search expert Mark Harrison have to say about the wells?
Not a great deal.
Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains.
Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.
An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.
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Not a great deal.
Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains.
Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.
An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.
Thanks. As I understand it OG are working in partnership so to speak with PJ? OG have spent years and 000's so if they haven't at least exhausted the wells what exactly have they been doing?
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More simple, Sweetie. Although I can't say that I care about your ignorance.
adjective
comparative adjective: simpler
1.
easily understood or done; presenting no difficulty.
"a simple solution"
Disposing of a body in PDL couldn't be simpler, Queen.
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I think your mind is closed and you refuse to accept anything that goes against your mindset
I look for relevant expertise.
Dave Barclay is a forensic scientist and I've quoted him often. In fact when I first got interested in this case one of the first things I did was listen to the C4 Dispatches docu which featured DB.
Mark Harrison is the go-to guy for search expertise.
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I look for relevant expertise.
Dave Barclay is a forensic scientist and I've quoted him often. In fact when I first got interested in this case one of the first things I did was listen to the C4 Dispatches docu which featured DB.
Mark Harrison is the go-to guy for search expertise.
So what expertise do you claim to support your, ability to solve the case... Can you see the contradiction you pose
It's laughable.. I think you are the go to person for codswallop
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Thanks. As I understand it OG are working in partnership so to speak with PJ? OG have spent years and 000's so if they haven't at least exhausted the wells what exactly have they been doing?
Thats the £12 million question,which imo is only likely to be answered in 2022.
Harrison had this to say about searching around PDL.
A full scale re-search of the village is not currently advised due to its speculative nature and resource implications. Should new information or intelligence identify a specific location then it would be recommended to re-search it adopting the similar model of reconnaissance followed by a search using several detecting methods as detailed in this report to provide a high assurance of detection for a concealed body.
This, one presumes is why OG in 2014 went digging around the scrubland,there's clearly been no intelligence since to identify a specific location, imo.
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So what expertise do you claim to support your, ability to solve the case... Can you see the contradiction you pose
It's laughable.. I think you are the go to person for codswallop
A bit harsh.
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So what expertise do you claim to support your, ability to solve the case... Can you see the contradiction you pose
It's laughable.. I think you are the go to person for codswallop
I'm a poster on a forum. I've never claimed to be an expert in forensics or searches.
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A bit harsh.
I don't think it is... Why has holly started a thread for discussion when the only opinion she will accept is Mark Harrison..
Of all the posts on the thread mine is really the only one that supplies concrete evidence that Luz is a good place to hide a body.. Evidence by a respected forensic scientist who has been to luz. Yet Holly thinks that carries no weight... Closed mind at it's finest
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I'm a poster on a forum. I've never claimed to be an expert in forensics or searches.
You have claimed to have solved the case and belittled experts in their field... It seems you think the entire grange team should be sacked and replaced by a team from the Womens Institute
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More simple, Sweetie. Although I can't say that I care about your ignorance.
He preferred his life much simpler than it already was. It's simpler that way. They were so nasty when he told them about me we both found it simpler to ignore the jerks. Life was simpler without emotional attachments.
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He preferred his life much simpler than it already was. It's simpler that way. They were so nasty when he told them about me we both found it simpler to ignore the jerks. Life was simpler without emotional attachments.
Come on, it's 'more simple'. All us ignorant people have been edumucated.
“It ain’t no lie. We’re gonna do it. Gonna get a little place an’ live on the fatta the lan’.”
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You have claimed to have solved the case and belittled experts in their field... It seems you think the entire grange team should be sacked and replaced by a team from the Womens Institute
Which experts have I belittled?
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Which experts have I belittled?
SY
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SY
I almost broke an emoji out then. The whole of Scotland Yard?
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SY
I'm not sure I have criticized SY in this case? Just questioned what they have they spent resources on.
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I'm not sure I have criticized SY in this case? Just questioned what they have they spent resources on.
In any event I don't consider SY experts in the MH/DB sense.
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In any event I don't consider SY experts in the MH/DB sense.
Then if SY are not experts in their field... Who is
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Then if SY are not experts in their field... Who is
A farmer. He's outstanding in his field.
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In any event I don't consider SY experts in the MH/DB sense.
About DB. I have amended my post cos I haven't the time and energy to research it all again.
IMO, if the video showing him with his team in PdL is anything to judge by, he is a waste of space in some ways
Sorry to have to have said it, but his logic is lacking at times.
When he examined the view of 5A on a photograph, he came to silly conclusions. This photo was taken from the Rua Maio region and not from the tapas restaurant area where the tapas goup sat. The two views were completely different. He made a nonsense of it imo.
There were other things that I noticed but I have spent hours on another thread trying to find things and I am absolutely done in.
All IMO, but please look at the video again and critically assess it yourselves
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"Simpler is correct. The grammar rule is words with two syllables or less generally become comparatives by adding -er to the end and words with three syllables or more are made comparative by adding more before the word. Examples: Nice - Nicer (Because the word nice has only one syllable.)"
Cesspits!
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About DB
IMO, if the video showing him with his team in PdL is anything to judge by, he is a waste of space.
Sorry to have to have said it, but his logic is lacking in several ways ... and his humble team all agree with him. I wonder if they would have done had he not been a professor and so authoritive.
All IMO, but please look at the video again and critically assess it yourselves
I find DBs comment Re hiding a body in Luz to be far from a waste of space... It's seem to be based on sound reasoning and logic.... Something lacking in those who think they have solved the case
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"Simpler is correct. The grammar rule is words with two syllables or less generally become comparatives by adding -er to the end and words with three syllables or more are made comparative by adding more before the word. Examples: Nice - Nicer (Because the word nice has only one syllable.)"
Cesspits!
Both simpler and more simple are correct.... Your rule for comparatives is incomplete
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Snip:I find DBs comment Re hiding a body in Luz to be far from a waste of space... It's seem to be based on sound reasoning and logic....
Can't fathom it,I'm in agreement.
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I find DBs comment Re hiding a body in Luz to be far from a waste of space... It's seem to be based on sound reasoning and logic.... Something lacking in those who think they have solved the case
I think much of what he says in the Dispatches video is absolutely spot on particularly in relation to the forensics the results of which neither he nor anyone not involved in the investigation had had the opportunity to study in detail.
Snip
'Forensic science is not just about a single test result,' says Barclay. 'It's about setting it in context.'
He is particularly sceptical about the reported presence of bodily fluids found in the McCanns' hire car.
'You've got to work out where the body has been and how it got transported in the car that wasn't hired until 25 days after Madeleine disappeared,' he says.
'It's almost incomprehensible. So we should just wait and see what the results show before leaping to any conclusions. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that they will exonerate the McCanns.'
Indeed, the whole way the investigation has been run by Portuguese police is of deep concern for our experts.
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id460.htm
Similarly the rest of the team of experts expressed their concerns regarding the conduct of the case in relation to their own areas of expertise.
Quite an eye opener ... and not one of them including the search expert entertained the feasibility that the Tapas nine had the local knowledge to overcome the difficulties of locale and terrain to make Madeleine vanish in the way she had.
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I think much of what he says in the Dispatches video is absolutely spot on particularly in relation to the forensics the results of which neither he nor anyone not involved in the investigation had had the opportunity to study in detail.
Snip
'Forensic science is not just about a single test result,' says Barclay. 'It's about setting it in context.'
He is particularly sceptical about the reported presence of bodily fluids found in the McCanns' hire car.
'You've got to work out where the body has been and how it got transported in the car that wasn't hired until 25 days after Madeleine disappeared,' he says.
'It's almost incomprehensible. So we should just wait and see what the results show before leaping to any conclusions. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that they will exonerate the McCanns.'
Indeed, the whole way the investigation has been run by Portuguese police is of deep concern for our experts.
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id460.htm
Similarly the rest of the team of experts expressed their concerns regarding the conduct of the case in relation to their own areas of expertise.
Quite an eye opener ... and not one of them including the search expert entertained the feasibility that the Tapas nine had the local knowledge to overcome the difficulties of locale and terrain to make Madeleine vanish in the way she had.
By search expert do you mean Mark Harrison? Did he give an opinion about local knowledge?
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By search expert do you mean Mark Harrison? Did he give an opinion about local knowledge?
You seem to have misunderstood my post and the discussion which engendered it entirely. Please read it again and follow the link provided therein; when you have read that please let me know if you are still having difficulty with interpretation and I will attempt to help you out.
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Both simpler and more simple are correct.... Your rule for comparatives is incomplete
Simpler is correct.
End of.
Boring.
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Simpler is correct.
End of.
Boring.
Both simpler and more simple are correct.... Your rule for comparatives is incomplete
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Simpler is correct.
End of.
Boring.
This is getting boringer and boringer.
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This is getting boringer and boringer.
That breaks sils two syllable rule.. Lol
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Feasibility Of Disposing Of A Small Child's Body In The PDL Area.
Yes, for example ...
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Feasibility Of Disposing Of A Small Child's Body In The PDL Area.
Yes, for example ...
From waste ground to a development and in 2007. That is only one. There must be many such places from large villas to a small development in a private garden.
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Feasibility Of Disposing Of A Small Child's Body In The PDL Area.
Yes, for example ...
Heriberto!
Whatever happened to your analysis of the feasibility of locking open the window shutters of a similar flat to 5A from outside, which I think was posted either on your website or a forum several years ago? I can't even remember if it consisted of photos or video or both. Is there any possibilty of you uploading these again?
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Heriberto!
Whatever happened to your analysis of the feasibility of locking open the window shutters of a similar flat to 5A from outside, which I think was posted either on your website or a forum several years ago? I can't even remember if it consisted of photos or video or both. Is there any possibilty of you uploading these again?
IIRC there was a video of him reaching in & abducting a pillow.
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IIRC there was a video of him reaching in & abducting a pillow.
Was it a 20 kilogram pillow?
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Heriberto!
Whatever happened to your analysis of the feasibility of locking open the window shutters of a similar flat to 5A from outside, which I think was posted either on your website or a forum several years ago? I can't even remember if it consisted of photos or video or both. Is there any possibilty of you uploading these again?
It was a video showing it was possible to raise the shutters then reach in to use the strap to keep them open
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It was a video showing it was possible to raise the shutters then reach in to use the strap to keep them open
It proved conclusively that it was possible to successfully raise the shutter from outside ... just as Kate found it.
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It was a video showing it was possible to raise the shutters then reach in to use the strap to keep them open
Heri claimed Maddie would have been awaken by the noise of the window & shutter opening & she walked towards the window, where upon the long armed abductor needed only to reach in & pull her out, without him actually entering the apartment.
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It was a video showing it was possible to raise the shutters then reach in to use the strap to keep them open
Yes, I see... but for some reason or other Heri has removed it from the net. I just thought it might be useful to watch again, because of the close-up visual detail that it showed.
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It proved conclusively that it was possible to successfully raise the shutter from outside ... just as Kate* found it.
*claimed to have
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Heri claimed Maddie would have been awaken by the noise of the window & shutter opening & she walked towards the window, where upon the long armed abductor needed only to reach in & pull her out, without him actually entering the apartment.
Actually the only post which is on topic here is Heri's which illustrates the type of area which could have been used to conceal human remains. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11095.msg564223#msg564223 Anyone care to discuss that one.
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Actually the only post which is on topic here is Heri's which illustrates the type of area which could have been used to conceal human remains. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11095.msg564223#msg564223 Anyone care to discuss that one.
There's nothing left to discuss.
The case is solved according to Heri.
MADELEINE MCCANN CASE SOLVED
Madeleine McCann case is solved in the sense that we know what happened. There were two burglaries which occurred 7 and 17 days before the night Madeleine was abducted. The two burglaries were in the same block of apartments where Madeleine was spending her holidays. One in 5G, and the another in 5L (Madeleine was in 5A).
We also have the location of another burglary near the 5A. Not in the same block but only 55 meters from 5A front door. It happened in "Casa María" in February 2007, some three months before the abduction, and a window was opened from outside, like in Madeleine case and the other two burglaries.
A local thief entered 5A apartment on May 3, 2007, through a window, and abducted Madeleine. The Polícia Judiciária and Scotland Yard must locate him.
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com/
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There's nothing left to discuss.
The case is solved according to Heri.
MADELEINE MCCANN CASE SOLVED
Madeleine McCann case is solved in the sense that we know what happened. There were two burglaries which occurred 7 and 17 days before the night Madeleine was abducted. The two burglaries were in the same block of apartments where Madeleine was spending her holidays. One in 5G, and the another in 5L (Madeleine was in 5A).
We also have the location of another burglary near the 5A. Not in the same block but only 55 meters from 5A front door. It happened in "Casa María" in February 2007, some three months before the abduction, and a window was opened from outside, like in Madeleine case and the other two burglaries.
A local thief entered 5A apartment on May 3, 2007, through a window, and abducted Madeleine. The Polícia Judiciária and Scotland Yard must locate him.
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com/
Apart from the fact it really isn't on topic for this thread there isn't anything here that isn't true, is there?
Madeleine McCann case is solved in the sense that we know what happened.
There were two burglaries which occurred 7 and 17 days before the night Madeleine was abducted.
The two burglaries were in the same block of apartments where Madeleine was spending her holidays.
One in 5G, and the another in 5L (Madeleine was in 5A).
We also have the location of another burglary near the 5A.
Not in the same block but only 55 meters from 5A front door.
It happened in "Casa María" in February 2007, some three months before the abduction, and a window was opened from outside, like in Madeleine case and the other two burglaries.
A local thief entered 5A apartment on May 3, 2007, through a window, and abducted Madeleine. The Polícia Judiciária and Scotland Yard must locate him.
____________________________________________________________________________
So we have individuals who have apparently been named in the police files. Scotland yard found them of interest and the Policia Judiciaria did not.
But whatever, in my opinion if someone had the time and the inclination to break into Ocean Club properties at will perhaps they also had the time and the inclination and the knowledge to dispose of anything which might well incriminate them.
To this end Heri has indicated possible areas which comply with the thread topic.
Will you please desist from deflecting from that and if you really need to post ... bear in mind what the thread topic is. TY
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And the moon is made of cheese. Smithman hid Madeleine IMO and he was near to the sea when seen at the time Madeleine was found to be missing. IMO every minute of the timeline is crucial after 21:45.
They've got to investigate Smithman to move this case forward.
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Peter Mac demonstrated it was possible to raise the shutter, although not all the way.
https://youtu.be/IeuMzyaCnnY
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Members are reminded to post on topic. TY
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Some believe Madeleine was dead before 8 o'clock, it beggars belief then that Gerry was out playing tennis until 7, and they went to the Tapas as 8.30!!!
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Some believe Madeleine was dead before 8 o'clock, it beggars belief then that Gerry was out playing tennis until 7, and they went to the Tapas as 8.30!!!
It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that a person can behave normally when the stakes are high enough.
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It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that a person can behave normally when the stakes are high enough.
High enough for what?
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It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that a person can behave normally when the stakes are high enough.
When was it all supposed to have happened? Gerry was in no rush to finish playing tennis and they were at the Tapas Bar by half past eight, the first to arrive.
I for one do not believe that the McCann's could have found Madeleine dead in the short space of time after arriving home from Madeleine having her dinner to the McCann's going to the Tapas Bar, in the middle of that time span Gerry went out to play tennis. So if it had happened before he went to play tennis, it didn't bother him at all. If it happens after he played tennis, then he would have had to clean up, think about where to put Madeleine where no one can find her, rush off to hide her and get back to walk down the steps of 5a in time to meet Jeremy and then chats to him in a normal manner. All in the space of what? twenty minutes at that?
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If it happens after he played tennis, then he would have had to clean up, think about where to put Madeleine where no one can find her, rush off to hide her and get back to walk down the steps of 5a in time to meet Jeremy and then chats to him in a normal manner. All in the space of what? twenty minutes at that?
Now you put it like that, it's actually quite compelling.
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Now you put it like that, it's actually quite compelling.
It is also impossible.
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It is also impossible.
Why?
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Why?
Imagine yourself in that scenario, you go back to check on your children, you find one dead. What would be your first reaction? To hurry and hide all evidence? Run out with your child and find a place to hide her? No. The first reactions would be to cry, to nurse your dead child and mourn that child. Then to inform your wife.
Now lets forget what would probably happen and imagine what a devious, uncaring unloving father would do. On finding his dead child, he would clean up any blood take the child and run off with her. To where? that would take planning and time wasn't on his side. To run off somewhere and hide a child so no one can find her, is remarkable, then to arrive back, unbothered, not even out of breath to chat to Jeremy normally, then go off and eat his dinner laughing and joking. That is what is impossible.
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Imagine yourself in that scenario, you go back to check on your children, you find one dead. What would be your first reaction? To hurry and hide all evidence? Run out with your child and find a place to hide her? No. The first reactions would be to cry, to nurse your dead child and mourn that child. Then to inform your wife.
Now lets forget what would probably happen and imagine what a devious, uncaring unloving father would do. On finding his dead child, he would clean up any blood take the child and run off with her. To where? that would take planning and time wasn't on his side. To run off somewhere and hide a child so no one can find her, is remarkable, then to arrive back, unbothered, not even out of breath to chat to Jeremy normally, then go off and eat his dinner laughing and joking. That is what is impossible.
Now imagine you didn't find your child dead but had in fact killed it, then what?
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Now imagine you didn't find your child dead but had in fact killed it, then what?
So when would that have happened? It would have had to have been after Gerry played tennis, so an hour and a half to do everything it takes to dispose of a body and manage to get to the Tapas bar to laugh and eat with friends, no sorry didn't happen. IMO
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So when would that have happened? It would have had to have been after Gerry played tennis, so an hour and a half to do everything it takes to dispose of a body and manage to get to the Tapas bar to laugh and eat with friends, no sorry didn't happen.
You forgot to add IMO there.
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You forgot to add IMO there.
Thank you I've added it.
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When was it all supposed to have happened? Gerry was in no rush to finish playing tennis and they were at the Tapas Bar by half past eight, the first to arrive.
I for one do not believe that the McCann's could have found Madeleine dead in the short space of time after arriving home from Madeleine having her dinner to the McCann's going to the Tapas Bar, in the middle of that time span Gerry went out to play tennis. So if it had happened before he went to play tennis, it didn't bother him at all. If it happens after he played tennis, then he would have had to clean up, think about where to put Madeleine where no one can find her, rush off to hide her and get back to walk down the steps of 5a in time to meet Jeremy and then chats to him in a normal manner. All in the space of what? twenty minutes at that?
The scenario you present is your opinion laced with assumptions such as 'found dead' 'cleaning up' and disposal before meeting JW.
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The scenario you present is your opinion laced with assumptions such as 'found dead' 'cleaning up' and disposal before meeting JW.
It was Wonderfulspam who suggested the 'found dead' I don't believe she was killed by any one of the McCann's. Cleaning up if there was blood and disposal of Madeleine's body that's correct.
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Now imagine you didn't find your child dead but had in fact killed it, then what?
Killed how and why? Premeditated or accidental? With partner present or not present?
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The scenario you present is your opinion laced with assumptions such as 'found dead' 'cleaning up' and disposal before meeting JW.
It was Wonderfulspam who suggested the 'found dead' I don't believe she was killed by any one of the McCann's. Cleaning up if there was blood and disposal of Madeleine's body that's correct.
It was you who mentioned cleaning up and have now added 'if' and you who placed disposal at 9pm.
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Bordering close to Libel now.
I will be awarding Points if this continues.
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Bordering close to Libel now.
I will be awarding Points if this continues.
But only to a sceptic, obviously.
To be fair the thread title invites us to sail close to the wind - so why allow it?
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But only to a sceptic, obviously.
To be fair the thread title invites us to sail close to the wind - so why allow it?
Obviously.
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But only to a sceptic, obviously.
To be fair the thread title invites us to sail close to the wind - so why allow it?
Catching on.
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Please post On Topic ... ALL Off Topic posts will be removed TY