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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Alfie on October 08, 2016, 06:30:08 PM
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I'm sick of hearing"sceptic" claim there is no evidence that the alarm was raised at 10pm. We know why these "sceptics" refuse to accept that the alarm was raised then because it wipes out the notion that Gerry was Smithman. So, to remind these "sceptics", the PJ's own analysis of ALL the witness statements concluded that Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm. The report I post below has no recommendations concerning getting any greater clarity about this aspect of the timeline. In other words the PJ accepted this time as fact. Get over it.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic32.html
This report is based on a time line (resulting from the depositions made to the Polícia Judiciária and the “Control Risk” by five elements of the G9, the manager of the clients support Service of Mark Warner’s and by other witnesses, having a text been performed by the British analyst) and several Communications chronograms, both elaborated and sent by the Analysis Sector of the British Police that, within the police cooperation act, was in Portugal.
All the elements were analyzed and checked by this BCAI, where only one or another discrepancy was detected (between the 1st and 2nd statements of some elements of the G9)
.............
THE DEPOSITIONS/DECLARATIONS
On the night of May 3, at 20:30h, the McCann were the first to arrive at the “Tapas” restaurant. The other elements of the group kept arriving until 21:00h.
At 21:00h Mathew went to see his daughter. He listened close to rooms of the rest of the children and everything was calm.
At 21:05H/21:10H Gerald went to check his children. He entered through the sliding door and found it strange that the children’s bedroom door was slightly more opened than when they went out. But he assumed that Madeleine had gotten up and gone back to bed.
He saw that Madeleine and the twins were in their beds, quiet.
He went to the bathroom and got out through the sliding doors. On the street, close to the gate, he met Jez, known from the tennis, with whom he spoke for 3 to 5 minutes.
At that moment (21:15h) coming from the restaurant to check her children, Jane passed by them.
She says that at that moment she saw, up the street, on the perpendicular, at about 10 meters, a man crossing carrying a child (see map and photo pags 50/51).
The child was on pajamas and without shoes, but she only found strange the fact that she wasn’t covered.
Only later, after learning about the colors of the pajamas, Jane concluded that the child she says she saw held by the man could be Madeleine.
She didn’t notice if the shutters of Madeleine’s bedroom window were up or down.
Neither Gerald nor Jez noticed Jane’s passage, nor did they see the man carrying the child.
At 21:30h Mathew got out of the “Tapas” to go check his children. He told Kate that he would control her children also.
He entered 5A by the living room sliding door.
He found that in Madeleine’s room, where the twins were also staying, there was more light than normal, it seemed that the shutters were lifted.
He didn’t take notice and just looked into the room through the semi opened door.
He says that he saw the twins in their cots and that everything was calm.
Because Madeleine’s bed was standing to the closest wall he was unable to see her.
At 22:00 Kate went to the apartment.
She went through the sliding doors and immediately noticed that the door to the children’s bedroom was totally opened, the window was opened, the shutters raised and the curtains opened to the sides.
The twins were sleeping in their cots but Madeleine had disappeared.
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RECOMENDATIONS/SUGGESTIONS
In relation with the Time Line:
-In order to determine with more exactitude the period when Madeleine was not seen by anyone other but the parents (03-05-2007 – 17h30/18h00 – 20h00), find out if David Payne went to the apartment (at the request of Gerald) at 19h00.
-Clarify if Mathew was in the apartment 5A, at 21h30, how were the curtains, the window and the shutters in the children’s room.
About the chronograms:
-Try to figure out, close to the respective authorities, the identity of the holders of each of the phone numbers mentioned above. Such elements could help clear the facts.
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I'm sick of hearing"sceptic" claim there is no evidence that the alarm was raised at 10pm. We know why these "sceptics" refuse to accept that the alarm was raised then because it wipes out the notion that Gerry was Smithman. So, to remind these "sceptics", the PJ's own analysis of ALL the witness statements concluded that Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm. The report I post below has no recommendations concerning getting any greater clarity about this aspect of the timeline. In other words the PJ accepted this time as fact. Get over it.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic32.html
This report is based on a time line (resulting from the depositions made to the Polícia Judiciária and the “Control Risk” by five elements of the G9, the manager of the clients support Service of Mark Warner’s and by other witnesses, having a text been performed by the British analyst) and several Communications chronograms, both elaborated and sent by the Analysis Sector of the British Police that, within the police cooperation act, was in Portugal.
All the elements were analyzed and checked by this BCAI, where only one or another discrepancy was detected (between the 1st and 2nd statements of some elements of the G9)
.............
THE DEPOSITIONS/DECLARATIONS
On the night of May 3, at 20:30h, the McCann were the first to arrive at the “Tapas” restaurant. The other elements of the group kept arriving until 21:00h.
At 21:00h Mathew went to see his daughter. He listened close to rooms of the rest of the children and everything was calm.
At 21:05H/21:10H Gerald went to check his children. He entered through the sliding door and found it strange that the children’s bedroom door was slightly more opened than when they went out. But he assumed that Madeleine had gotten up and gone back to bed.
He saw that Madeleine and the twins were in their beds, quiet.
He went to the bathroom and got out through the sliding doors. On the street, close to the gate, he met Jez, known from the tennis, with whom he spoke for 3 to 5 minutes.
At that moment (21:15h) coming from the restaurant to check her children, Jane passed by them.
She says that at that moment she saw, up the street, on the perpendicular, at about 10 meters, a man crossing carrying a child (see map and photo pags 50/51).
The child was on pajamas and without shoes, but she only found strange the fact that she wasn’t covered.
Only later, after learning about the colors of the pajamas, Jane concluded that the child she says she saw held by the man could be Madeleine.
She didn’t notice if the shutters of Madeleine’s bedroom window were up or down.
Neither Gerald nor Jez noticed Jane’s passage, nor did they see the man carrying the child.
At 21:30h Mathew got out of the “Tapas” to go check his children. He told Kate that he would control her children also.
He entered 5A by the living room sliding door.
He found that in Madeleine’s room, where the twins were also staying, there was more light than normal, it seemed that the shutters were lifted.
He didn’t take notice and just looked into the room through the semi opened door.
He says that he saw the twins in their cots and that everything was calm.
Because Madeleine’s bed was standing to the closest wall he was unable to see her.
At 22:00 Kate went to the apartment.
She went through the sliding doors and immediately noticed that the door to the children’s bedroom was totally opened, the window was opened, the shutters raised and the curtains opened to the sides.
The twins were sleeping in their cots but Madeleine had disappeared.
...........
RECOMENDATIONS/SUGGESTIONS
In relation with the Time Line:
-In order to determine with more exactitude the period when Madeleine was not seen by anyone other but the parents (03-05-2007 – 17h30/18h00 – 20h00), find out if David Payne went to the apartment (at the request of Gerald) at 19h00.
-Clarify if Mathew was in the apartment 5A, at 21h30, how were the curtains, the window and the shutters in the children’s room.
About the chronograms:
-Try to figure out, close to the respective authorities, the identity of the holders of each of the phone numbers mentioned above. Such elements could help clear the facts.
All supposition.
They don't know what happened.
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All supposition.
They don't know what happened.
Yes they do because there were loads of witnesses, they studied all their statements and they come up with a timeline for which they had no follow- up queries concerning the time of Kate's discovery.
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Yes they do because there were loads of witnesses, they studied all their statements and they come up with a timeline for which they had no follow- up queries concerning the time of Kate's discovery.
Not in the apartment Alfie.
Not until KM raised the alarm.
What happened in the apartment is supposition............... and you know it.
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I'm sick of hearing"sceptic" claim there is no evidence that the alarm was raised at 10pm. We know why these "sceptics" refuse to accept that the alarm was raised then because it wipes out the notion that Gerry was Smithman. So, to remind these "sceptics", the PJ's own analysis of ALL the witness statements concluded that Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm. The report I post below has no recommendations concerning getting any greater clarity about this aspect of the timeline. In other words the PJ accepted this time as fact. Get over it.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic32.html
This report is based on a time line (resulting from the depositions made to the Polícia Judiciária and the “Control Risk” by five elements of the G9, the manager of the clients support Service of Mark Warner’s and by other witnesses, having a text been performed by the British analyst) and several Communications chronograms, both elaborated and sent by the Analysis Sector of the British Police that, within the police cooperation act, was in Portugal.
All the elements were analyzed and checked by this BCAI, where only one or another discrepancy was detected (between the 1st and 2nd statements of some elements of the G9)
.............
THE DEPOSITIONS/DECLARATIONS
On the night of May 3, at 20:30h, the McCann were the first to arrive at the “Tapas” restaurant. The other elements of the group kept arriving until 21:00h.
At 21:00h Mathew went to see his daughter. He listened close to rooms of the rest of the children and everything was calm.
At 21:05H/21:10H Gerald went to check his children. He entered through the sliding door and found it strange that the children’s bedroom door was slightly more opened than when they went out. But he assumed that Madeleine had gotten up and gone back to bed.
He saw that Madeleine and the twins were in their beds, quiet.
He went to the bathroom and got out through the sliding doors. On the street, close to the gate, he met Jez, known from the tennis, with whom he spoke for 3 to 5 minutes.
At that moment (21:15h) coming from the restaurant to check her children, Jane passed by them.
She says that at that moment she saw, up the street, on the perpendicular, at about 10 meters, a man crossing carrying a child (see map and photo pags 50/51).
The child was on pajamas and without shoes, but she only found strange the fact that she wasn’t covered.
Only later, after learning about the colors of the pajamas, Jane concluded that the child she says she saw held by the man could be Madeleine.
She didn’t notice if the shutters of Madeleine’s bedroom window were up or down.
Neither Gerald nor Jez noticed Jane’s passage, nor did they see the man carrying the child.
At 21:30h Mathew got out of the “Tapas” to go check his children. He told Kate that he would control her children also.
He entered 5A by the living room sliding door.
He found that in Madeleine’s room, where the twins were also staying, there was more light than normal, it seemed that the shutters were lifted.
He didn’t take notice and just looked into the room through the semi opened door.
He says that he saw the twins in their cots and that everything was calm.
Because Madeleine’s bed was standing to the closest wall he was unable to see her.
At 22:00 Kate went to the apartment.
She went through the sliding doors and immediately noticed that the door to the children’s bedroom was totally opened, the window was opened, the shutters raised and the curtains opened to the sides.
The twins were sleeping in their cots but Madeleine had disappeared.
...........
RECOMENDATIONS/SUGGESTIONS
In relation with the Time Line:
-In order to determine with more exactitude the period when Madeleine was not seen by anyone other but the parents (03-05-2007 – 17h30/18h00 – 20h00), find out if David Payne went to the apartment (at the request of Gerald) at 19h00.
-Clarify if Mathew was in the apartment 5A, at 21h30, how were the curtains, the window and the shutters in the children’s room.
About the chronograms:
-Try to figure out, close to the respective authorities, the identity of the holders of each of the phone numbers mentioned above. Such elements could help clear the facts.
Unfortunately you may do a "Violet Elizabeth" if you wish, the fact remaisn no one knows what happened.
That about sums it up.
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I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
Geronimo Salcedas.
Admittedly a different time was given in his interview with the PJ, but the rogatory will have been taken verbatim
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A reminder about this timeline, who contirbuted to it, and who analysed it:
This report is based on a time line (resulting from the depositions made to the Polícia Judiciária and the “Control Risk” by five elements of the G9, the manager of the clients support Service of Mark Warner’s and by other witnesses, having a text been performed by the British analyst) and several Communications chronograms, both elaborated and sent by the Analysis Sector of the British Police that, within the police cooperation act, was in Portugal.
All the elements were analyzed and checked by this BCAI, where only one or another discrepancy was detected (between the 1st and 2nd statements of some elements of the G9)
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Geronimo Salcedas.
Admittedly a different time was given in his interview with the PJ, but the rogatory will have been taken verbatim
The police who put together the timeline would have been aware of his statement - why was there no follow up recommendation in the report to clarify it, if there was any concern that his timing was correct and everyone else's was wrong?
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We got that the first time around.
Edit: this should hve come after the "reminder" post ?{)(**
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It seems most "sceptic" theories rely heavily on Smithman being Gerry - how about just for a change accepting that he couldn't have been him and see what you're left with?
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Witnesses don't exist to achieve things, they are sought by police who use their statements to attempt to achieve an accurate picture of events, which is what they have done here, with the above report.
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Witnesses don't exist to achieve things, they are sought by police who use their statements to attempt to achieve an accurate picture of events, which is what they have done here, with the above report.
..and has any of it resulted in solving the case ?
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It seems most "sceptic" theories rely heavily on Smithman being Gerry - how about just for a change accepting that he couldn't have been him and see what you're left with?
It would be interesting to know the definition of "most" on which you rely and your methodology of evaluation.
I note you apply the caveat "it seems" so somewhere along the line an imo would seem to be missing.
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..and has any of it resulted in solving the case ?
No, but that's beside the point. What it has done is help to establish who was where that evening and helps to eliminate certain scenarios.
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No, but that's beside the point. What it has done is help to establish who was where that evening and helps to eliminate certain scenarios.
Unfortunately, witness accounts including the Mccanns and their associates did change.
Likewise , there is not complete independent verification of the movements.
Also, we don't know for sure if the accounts are truthful or otherwise.
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I am open to reasoned persuasion on 'abduction', but have yet to see anything which can't be explained by other possibilities.
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Unfortunately, witness accounts including the Mccanns and their associates did change.
Likewise , there is not complete independent verification of the movements.
Also, we don't know for sure if the accounts are truthful or otherwise.
Police would be aware of this, particularly as they made two of these witnesses arguidos. That is why they analyse ALL of the statements - from their report there was no doubt raised about the time Kate went back to the apartment.
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I am open to reasoned persuasion on 'abduction', but have yet to see anything which can't be explained by other possibilities.
I haven't been proven wrong on anything yet, I merely conceded I could be wrong about the McCanns.
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I have already said I don't believe the Mccanns are involved in harming Madeleine directly. However, their actions, whoever is responsible, if anyone, led to Madeleine's disappearance.
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I have already said I don't believe the Mccanns are involved in harming Madeleine directly. However, their actions, whoever is responsible, if anyone, led to Madeleine's disappearance.
So you don't incline to a view that responsibility for Madeleine's abduction lies with Madeleine's abductor?
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According to that police force, the disappearance would have occurred at 22H40 (later on it was verified that the detection and the subsequent alarm of the same, in reality happened, between 22H00 and 22H10 of the day 3 of May of 2007, in one of the apartments of the tourist resort 'Ocean Club', located at Vila da Luz, Lagos, where a family composed by a couple and 3 children under aged were staying.
Joao Carlos, final PJ report.
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Joao Carlos, final PJ report.
It doesnt really matter what joao said as he wasnt there from 5 till 10
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It doesnt really matter what joao said as he wasnt there from 5 till 10
Joao Carlos quoted the group timeline but the files have enough in them to cast doubt on it. The PJ quoted it because they never took the steps needed to prove or disprove it.
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How could Gerry be Smithman when he was at the table when Kate raised the alarm, then sighted by one of the waiters searching for Madeleine. Groups were then gathering organised by the OC so Gerry couldn't be parading about with Madeleine with all that going on.
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How could Gerry be Smithman when he was at the table when Kate raised the alarm, then sighted by one of the waiters searching for Madeleine. Groups were then gathering organised by the OC so Gerry couldn't be parading about with Madeleine with all that going on.
It has not been proved that the alarm was raised at 10pm. It has not been proved that Gerry was at the table when Kate did so. There are no independent witnesses to support these 'facts'.
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It has not been proved that the alarm was raised at 10pm. It has not been proved that Gerry was at the table when Kate did so. There are no independent witnesses to support these 'facts'.
Another one who doesn't understand what an 'independent witness' is.
Never mind ....
Go back to Chaucer and Shakespeare ....
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It doesnt really matter what joao said as he wasnt there from 5 till 10
Neither were you (I assume) ....
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Matt Oldfield said Kate left at 9:50 to check. Fiona put it between 9:45 to 10. The waiter who served Russell his thin steak said they left the table by 9:50. Just a number of main witness statements suggesting the alarm was raised before 10.
10 was on the first timelines by the group but when closer examined is not credible evidence e.g. Jane said she left at 09:10 - it is 9:20 on the first timeline. Matt said Gerry left straight away after he returned. On the first timeline it is at least 10 minutes later at 9:15 @)(++(* Gerry later said he left to check at 9:04 as an arguido. Amazing how he could remember an exact time 4 months later but not for that timeline. This suggests providing false information from the very start. The PJ should never have said the alarm time was 10pm because there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z10/rangeeni/timelineX2578b.jpg)
"When asked about the time he went to check the children on the night of Madeleine's disappearance, he states remembering that he did it, according to his watch, around 21:04. He remembers that once inside the apartment he thought strange only the fact of the door to the children's room being slightly more open than how the defendant had left it when he and Kate left for dinner."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
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Another one who doesn't understand what an 'independent witness' is.
Never mind ....
Go back to Chaucer and Shakespeare ....
Educate all us ignorant tossers with your definition of "independent witness" then, please. Then alongside give the legal definition. Try to do it without Google and a glut of parentheses.
Let's all have a good bleedin' laugh or not as the case may be.
p.s Dr Evadne liked Bracketts; you wouldn't be she perchance?
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It has not been proved that the alarm was raised at 10pm. It has not been proved that Gerry was at the table when Kate did so. There are no independent witnesses to support these 'facts'.
How do you know there are no independent witnesses? Other people in the vicinity or apartments may have seen what happened - but went home before being interviewed - or simply never came forward because they didn't think they had anything to add to what was already known.
It's noticeable how many people seem to think the only people in PdL during that holiday are those who gave witness statements. Just as some seem to think the only words ever spoken by the group during that week were those recorded in the files. Bizarre IMO.
Diane Webster was at the table with Gerry at the time Kate raised the alarm. Why would she lie about Gerry being there at that time? The 'argument' that their childcare arrangements would get them into trouble would not apply to her and I certainly can't see Fiona encouraging her elderly mother to lie to the police. Would you if it was your mother?
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Educate all us ignorant tossers with your definition of "independent witness" then, please. Then alongside give the legal definition. Try to do it without Google and a glut of parentheses.
Let's all have a good bleedin' laugh or not as the case may be.
p.s Dr Evadne liked Bracketts; you wouldn't be she perchance?
Anyone who could risk criminal charges of perjury or attempting to pervert the course of justice if they lied (distinct from honestly recollecting events in a way not entirely accurate).
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It has not been proved that the alarm was raised at 10pm. It has not been proved that Gerry was at the table when Kate did so. There are no independent witnesses to support these 'facts'.
The PJ analysis came to the conclusion that Kate went to check on the kids at 10pm. They came to this conclusion by looking at ALL the evidence and statements. Why do you think they are wrong?
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Let's turn this around - we know Gerry was at the table when the alarm was raised. We know Smithman was spotted at 10pm, so what time would "sceptics" like to put on the time the alarm was raised, and let's take it from there....
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It has not been proved that the alarm was raised at 10pm. It has not been proved that Gerry was at the table when Kate did so. There are no independent witnesses to support these 'facts'.
Gerry was seen by a waiter after the alarm was raised searching around the pool area, then, later when he left the OC he saw groups of people gathering to do searches.
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Just a reminder about the official timeline report put together by the PJ and British police who came up with a 10pm discovery of a missing child
"This report is based on a time line (resulting from the depositions made to the Polícia Judiciária and the “Control Risk” by five elements of the G9, the manager of the clients support Service of Mark Warner’s and by other witnesses, having a text been performed by the British analyst) and several Communications chronograms, both elaborated and sent by the Analysis Sector of the British Police that, within the police cooperation act, was in Portugal.
All the elements were analyzed and checked by this BCAI, where only one or another discrepancy was detected (between the 1st and 2nd statements of some elements of the G9)'
How could they all get it so wrong and you sceptics get it so right? Why are you sceptics way cleverer than the police?
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Let's turn this around - we know Gerry was at the table when the alarm was raised. We know Smithman was spotted at 10pm, so what time would "sceptics" like to put on the time the alarm was raised, and let's take it from there....
Correction. We actually know neither unless we were present at both locations complete with a chronometer.
That would seem to be difficult.
The best we can do with the info available is " it would seem between x pm and ypm".
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Anyone who could risk criminal charges of perjury or attempting to pervert the course of justice if they lied (distinct from honestly recollecting events in a way not entirely accurate).
I prefer this one:
"An independent witness is a third-party witness who does not have an affiliation with either parties involved in a case and someone who can present an unbiased opinion".
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I prefer this one:
"An independent witness is a third-party witness who does not have an affiliation with either parties involved in a case and someone who can present an unbiased opinion".
Cornell University.
US law.
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U.K. One...
An independent witness means that the person seeing the situation does not know any of the parties involved.
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It has not been proved that the alarm was raised at 10pm. It has not been proved that Gerry was at the table when Kate did so. There are no independent witnesses to support these 'facts'.
I believe it has been established to be beyond doubt. Another coincidence undoubtedly which has distracted the investigation for far too long.
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How do you know there are no independent witnesses? Other people in the vicinity or apartments may have seen what happened - but went home before being interviewed - or simply never came forward because they didn't think they had anything to add to what was already known.
It's noticeable how many people seem to think the only people in PdL during that holiday are those who gave witness statements. Just as some seem to think the only words ever spoken by the group during that week were those recorded in the files. Bizarre IMO.
Diane Webster was at the table with Gerry at the time Kate raised the alarm. Why would she lie about Gerry being there at that time? The 'argument' that their childcare arrangements would get them into trouble would not apply to her and I certainly can't see Fiona encouraging her elderly mother to lie to the police. Would you if it was your mother?
Here'sa couple of independent witnesses;
At around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
Between 21.30 and 22: Fitness instructor/Waiter J. R. S. went over to the table and joked with (Diane Webster): "They've left you alone?" She responded more of less with these words: "No, they went to see if the little girl was there.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
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Here'sa couple of independent witnesses;
At around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
Between 21.30 and 22: Fitness instructor/Waiter J. R. S. went over to the table and joked with (Diane Webster): "They've left you alone?" She responded more of less with these words: "No, they went to see if the little girl was there.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
By Slartibarstfart's definition that is not an independent witness either, as the waiter did know them. "An independent witness means that the person seeing the situation does not know any of the parties involved".
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It seems to me that the preferred option of some of our resident "sceptics" is to disregard ALL the witness statements and just make up the narrative of events that suits them the best.
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Here'sa couple of independent witnesses;
At around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
Between 21.30 and 22: Fitness instructor/Waiter J. R. S. went over to the table and joked with (Diane Webster): "They've left you alone?" She responded more of less with these words: "No, they went to see if the little girl was there.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
""This report is based on a time line (resulting from the depositions made to the Polícia Judiciária and the “Control Risk” by five elements of the G9, the manager of the clients support Service of Mark Warner’s and by other witnesses, having a text been performed by the British analyst) and several Communications chronograms, both elaborated and sent by the Analysis Sector of the British Police that, within the police cooperation act, was in Portugal.
All the elements were analyzed and checked by this BCAI, where only one or another discrepancy was detected (between the 1st and 2nd statements of some elements of the G9)' "
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It seems to me that the preferred option of some of our resident "sceptics" is to disregard ALL the witness statements and just make up the narrative of events that suits them the best.
I wouldn't call FM a sceptic?
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I wouldn't call FM a sceptic?
Neither would I - and your point is?
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Neither would I - and your point is?
A little levity...
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A little levity...
Failed miserably.
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Whilst I have your attention Moderator, could you please tell me what libel I recently committed?
I thought your post was levity. Was I wrong about that?
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""This report is based on a time line (resulting from the depositions made to the Polícia Judiciária and the “Control Risk” by five elements of the G9, the manager of the clients support Service of Mark Warner’s and by other witnesses, having a text been performed by the British analyst) and several Communications chronograms, both elaborated and sent by the Analysis Sector of the British Police that, within the police cooperation act, was in Portugal.
All the elements were analyzed and checked by this BCAI, where only one or another discrepancy was detected (between the 1st and 2nd statements of some elements of the G9)' "
More strangenesses. They quote Emma Knight but the report was written in September 2007 and the only statement in the files by her was her rog statement in April 2008.
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The thing is once Kate McCann had raised the alarm, all the friends went rushing off to search for Madeleine, so whether or not it was bang on 10 o'clock or not they were searching for Madeleine, Gerry was seen searching around the pool area by a waiter, if that was before 10o'clock, what are some saying happened? That Gerry found Madeleine and without any 'oh my god, what's happened' he scooped her up and ran to where the Smith's family saw him and hid her body? That is so far fetched.
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The thing is once Kate McCann had raised the alarm, all the friends went rushing off to search for Madeleine, so whether or not it was bang on 10 o'clock or not they were searching for Madeleine, Gerry was seen searching around the pool area by a waiter, if that was before 10o'clock, what are some saying happened? That Gerry found Madeleine and without any 'oh my god, what's happened' he scooped her up and ran to where the Smith's family saw him and hid her body? That is so far fetched.
Especially as he allegedly found time to change his clothes first - and then change back into his previous clothes on his return - with no-one noticing a thing.
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The thing is once Kate McCann had raised the alarm, all the friends went rushing off to search for Madeleine, so whether or not it was bang on 10 o'clock or not they were searching for Madeleine, Gerry was seen searching around the pool area by a waiter, if that was before 10o'clock, what are some saying happened? That Gerry found Madeleine and without any 'oh my god, what's happened' he scooped her up and ran to where the Smith's family saw him and hid her body? That is so far fetched.
Gerry didn't mention searching the pool area and the waiter who served the steak said it was David Payne and Matt Oldfield searching the tapas/pool area. This independent witness is most important because he was definitely in the right time and place to see what was happening shortly after serving Russell his steak.
He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner.
David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
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Gerry didn't mention searching the pool area and the waiter who served the steak said it was David Payne and Matt Oldfield searching the tapas/pool area. This independent witness is most important because he was definitely in the right time and place to see what was happening shortly after serving Russell his steak.
He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner.
David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
Why do you think the waiter is a better judge of who Dianne Webster saw than Dianne Webster herself? I await your answer with interest (though I doubt I'll get one that makes any sense).
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Gerry didn't mention searching the pool area and the waiter who served the steak said it was David Payne and Matt Oldfield searching the tapas/pool area. This independent witness is most important because he was definitely in the right time and place to see what was happening shortly after serving Russell his steak.
He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner.
David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
This barman/waiter saw Gerry - http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/J-T-R-Salcedas.htm
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More strangenesses. They quote Emma Knight but the report was written in September 2007 and the only statement in the files by her was her rog statement in April 2008.
That would tend to suggest that the police got more supoprting evidence for the timeline that either never made it into the files or got left out from the files that made it onto the internet (either deliberately or by accident).
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Fuller statement from the barman/waiter - http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm
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Why do you think the waiter is a better judge of who Dianne Webster saw than Dianne Webster herself? I await your answer with interest (though I doubt I'll get one that makes any sense).
Tell me more? Dianne Webster didn't know what time the alarm was raised. No investigator should say it's 10pm if witnesses themselves don't know. Oh it's 10 because everyone else says so @)(++(*
4078 “Do you know what sort of time that was?”
Reply “Well no, again, you see I didn’t, I didn’t look at my watch, I’m only going on err I mean Dave would have been more aware of the time than I was.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
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That would tend to suggest that the police got more supoprting evidence for the timeline that either never made it into the files or got left out from the files that made it onto the internet (either deliberately or by accident).
There were informal conversations but there's also this;
Due to their absence, three individuals were not questioned, Euan Crosby, Steven Jackson and Emma Knights respectively.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MW_STAFF.htm
They seem to gave been absent from Sunday 6th May until Wednesday 9th May when OC staff were questioned. .
Emma's evidence related only to the time after 10pm anyway.
She was there on 4th when the McCanns got the rest of their belongings from 5A;
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/e_l_knight.jpg)
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Tell me more? Dianne Webster didn't know what time the alarm was raised.
4078 “Do you know what sort of time that was?”
Reply “Well no, again, you see I didn’t, I didn’t look at my watch, I’m only going on err I mean Dave would have been more aware of the time than I was.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
I don't think they were all sitting around the table until almost nine o'clock, then they had the starter, Gerry left the table spoke to Jez on his way back and then they would have ordered the main, so you are looking at close on half past nine before they even order the main, then they had to wait for it and eat it before the alarm was raised.
,
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I don't think they were all sitting around the table until almost nine o'clock, then they had the starter, Gerry left the table spoke to Jez on his way back and then they would have ordered the main, so you are looking at close on half past nine before they even order the main, then they had to wait for it and eat it before the alarm was raised.
,
4 months later Gerry said according to his watch the time was exactly 9:04 so why is 9:15 on the first timeline?
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4 months later Gerry said according to his watch the time was exactly 9:04 so why is 9:15 on the first timeline?
9.04 when he left the table?
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I don't think they were all sitting around the table until almost nine o'clock, then they had the starter, Gerry left the table spoke to Jez on his way back and then they would have ordered the main, so you are looking at close on half past nine before they even order the main, then they had to wait for it and eat it before the alarm was raised.
,
At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
Russell's written timeline puts it no later than 8.45 when all were assembled.
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9.04 when he left the table?
Yes that's what he said. He would be inside the apartment within a minute. 9:15 is on the first timeline. That's 10 minutes later so 10pm could be 9:50 going from that timeline.
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Tell me more? Dianne Webster didn't know what time the alarm was raised. No investigator should say it's 10pm if witnesses themselves don't know. Oh it's 10 because everyone else says so @)(++(*
4078 “Do you know what sort of time that was?”
Reply “Well no, again, you see I didn’t, I didn’t look at my watch, I’m only going on err I mean Dave would have been more aware of the time than I was.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
You have completely failed to address my question, I knew I wouldn't get a reasonable reply from you.
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Yes that's what he said. He would be inside the apartment within a minute. 9:15 is on the first timeline. That's 10 minutes later so 10pm could be 9:50 going from that timeline.
I read somewhere they were waiting for David Payne Fiona and Dianne to arrive at the Tapas Bar, as far as I know they were not all seated until almost nine. Then they had to order the starters, wait for it and eat it, I can't imagine Gerry finishing by five past 9 unless they had ordered before the Payne's had seated at the table.
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You have completely failed to address my question, I knew I wouldn't get a reasonable reply from you.
This about the timeline Alfie so what are you going on about? Dianne Webster doesn't know the time but she knew Russell only had a few bites of his steak when Kate raised the alarm so they all have important details when you put it all together like I have.
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The thing is the waiter says he saw Gerry searching around the pool area, then all hell broke loose and there were people everywhere, groups forming to search, how the hell could Gerry carry Madeleine through all that?
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The thing is the waiter says he saw Gerry searching around the pool area, then all hell broke loose and there were people everywhere, groups forming to search, how the hell could Gerry carry Madeleine through all that?
That waiter thought it was 10:20/30 when the alarm was raised. Nobody knows where Madeleine was after Gerry's check on her. Matt didn't see her nor Kate so 45 minutes later she could be somewhere else.
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Gerry didn't mention searching the pool area and the waiter who served the steak said it was David Payne and Matt Oldfield searching the tapas/pool area. This independent witness is most important because he was definitely in the right time and place to see what was happening shortly after serving Russell his steak.
He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner.
David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
Let's try again shall we? Why do you think the waiter is a better judge of who Dianne Webster saw than Dianne Webster herself?
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Let's try again shall we? Why do you think the waiter is a better judge of who Dianne Webster saw than Dianne Webster herself?
Who did Dianne Webster see searching by the pool? David Payne asked her to leave the table so she saw him.
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Dianne Webster said she didn't know the time when Kate raised the alarm because she didn't check her watch. She also said she tried raising the shutters but she couldn't do it. She didn't see them raised or an open window.
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It has not been proved that the alarm was raised at 10pm. It has not been proved that Gerry was at the table when Kate did so. There are no independent witnesses to support these 'facts'.
Now, please correct me if I am remembering this incorrecdtly
I thought that one of the waiters was an independant witness to this
But in any case I would hands down prefer the statements of a group of professional people, none with any criminal record.
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Gerry didn't mention searching the pool area and the waiter who served the steak said it was David Payne and Matt Oldfield searching the tapas/pool area. This independent witness is most important because he was definitely in the right time and place to see what was happening shortly after serving Russell his steak.
He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner.
David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
They would all be running around like headless chickens, until they later got more organised.
I bet all the Mccann friends searchers searched the Tapas area. I bet everywhere within a quarter of a mile or so was searched over and over again by the friends and others. Later when more organised they probably splayed out to search more distant places.
Some would do the longer searches fairly early on, but most would tend to be localized to start with imo.
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That waiter thought it was 10:20/30 when the alarm was raised. Nobody knows where Madeleine was after Gerry's check on her. Matt didn't see her nor Kate so 45 minutes later she could be somewhere else.
No he didn't. You are misquoting.
He says:
TAPAS BARMAN
233 to 238 Witness statement of Jeronimo Tomas Rodrigues Salcedas 2007.05.06
-snip-
Referring to the day of 3rd May when Madeleine disappeared, the witness says that he was working.
At that time, at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone.
-snip-
He was the barman . That meant that he spent most of his time in the tapas bar rather than the restaurant.
The tapas Bar and the tapas Restaurant are two seperate rooms.
He says:
"at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone."
Please DO NOT obfuscate. Do NOT start myths. Jeronimo does NOT say that the time above was when the alarm was raised.
Read what he said again Pfinder
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Gerry didn't mention searching the pool area and the waiter who served the steak said it was David Payne and Matt Oldfield searching the tapas/pool area. This independent witness is most important because he was definitely in the right time and place to see what was happening shortly after serving Russell his steak.
He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner.
David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
As far as I am aware no-body exactly specified where they searched, so nothing unusual about Gerry not mentioning it..
Seems Diane Webster saw him searching the Tapas area (?and Jeronimo).
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Why do you think the waiter is a better judge of who Dianne Webster saw than Dianne Webster herself? I await your answer with interest (though I doubt I'll get one that makes any sense).
Different waiters and different times, Alfie.
Bet they all searched the Tapas area at one time or another.
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That waiter thought it was 10:20/30 when the alarm was raised. Nobody knows where Madeleine was after Gerry's check on her. Matt didn't see her nor Kate so 45 minutes later she could be somewhere else.
Same barman. Two statements, two widely different times
TAPAS BARMAN
233 to 238 Witness statement of Jeronimo Tomas Rodrigues Salcedas 2007.05.06
-snip-
Referring to the day of 3rd May when Madeleine disappeared, the witness says that he was working.
At that time, at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone.
-snip-
22 to 24 Witness statement of Jeronimo Tomas Rodigues Salcedo (former Ocean Club worker) 2008.04.23
-snip-
On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
-snip-
OK, Pfinder.
Is this what you base your groundless 10.03 on in your signature? Cos you need to rethink things a bit it seems.
Jeronimo is the independant witness that saw Gerry searching in the Tapas area.
Elsewhere in his statement he comments that with the exception of one night, the group did not have any extra drinks after the meal. That they drank in moderation.
He also states that some of them normally left at 11pm.
We don't know which ones stayed, but my bet is that probably the women generally went home leaving (some of) the men.
But I hasten to add that is only based upon my (considerable) experience of what often happens with such groups.
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Dianne Webster said she didn't know the time when Kate raised the alarm because she didn't check her watch. She also said she tried raising the shutters but she couldn't do it. She didn't see them raised or an open window.
Dianne Webster said she saw Gerry by the pool when she was sat there alone after the alarm was raised, you claimed the only people seen by the pool were Matt and David, as claimed by one of the waiters. I asked you why Dianne Webster couldn't be a better judge of who she saw than the waiter.
"Gerry didn't mention searching the pool area and the waiter who served the steak said it was David Payne and Matt Oldfield searching the tapas/pool area. This independent witness is most important because he was definitely in the right time and place to see what was happening shortly after serving Russell his steak." -this is what you wrote, in reply to my post that Dianne saw Gerry by the pool. Why is Dianne's statement about who she saw by the pool not as valid as one of the waiters?
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Dianne Webster said she saw Gerry by the pool when she was sat there alone after the alarm was raised, you claimed the only people seen by the pool were Matt and David, as claimed by one of the waiters. I asked you why Dianne Webster couldn't be a better judge of who she saw than the waiter.
PF's post was factual, yours wasn't and had no indications that it was a joke. If you have issues with it, take it offline.
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Dianne Webster said she saw Gerry by the pool when she was sat there alone after the alarm was raised, you claimed the only people seen by the pool were Matt and David, as claimed by one of the waiters. I asked you why Dianne Webster couldn't be a better judge of who she saw than the waiter.
"Gerry didn't mention searching the pool area and the waiter who served the steak said it was David Payne and Matt Oldfield searching the tapas/pool area. This independent witness is most important because he was definitely in the right time and place to see what was happening shortly after serving Russell his steak." -this is what you wrote, in reply to my post that Dianne saw Gerry by the pool. Why is Dianne's statement about who she saw by the pool not as valid as one of the waiters?
I don't recall Diane Webster saying she saw Gerry McCann searching by the pool. Do you have a cite please?
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That waiter thought it was 10:20/30 when the alarm was raised. Nobody knows where Madeleine was after Gerry's check on her. Matt didn't see her nor Kate so 45 minutes later she could be somewhere else.
Gerry was there to order dinner, the waiter said that everyone had finished their dinner apart from one which still had a piece of steak on the plate. So Gerry was at the table after he came back from his check. Dianne Webster also said that Kate said 'she's gone Gerry' when she raised the alarm which proves Gerry was at the table.
This waiter said he was asked to hold a plate of food back, that was the steak then he served it about quarter to 10- When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45.
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Gerry was there to order dinner, the waiter said that everyone had finished their dinner apart from one which still had a piece of steak on the plate. So Gerry was at the table after he came back from his check. Dianne Webster also said that Kate said 'she's gone Gerry' when she raised the alarm which proves Gerry was at the table.
This waiter said he was asked to hold a plate of food back, that was the steak then he served it about quarter to 10- When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45.
I haven't seen the statement from Dianne Webster saying what Kate said. Any chence of a cite please?
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No he didn't. You are misquoting.
He says:
TAPAS BARMAN
233 to 238 Witness statement of Jeronimo Tomas Rodrigues Salcedas 2007.05.06
-snip-
Referring to the day of 3rd May when Madeleine disappeared, the witness says that he was working.
At that time, at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone.
-snip-
He was the barman . That meant that he spent most of his time in the tapas bar rather than the restaurant.
The tapas Bar and the tapas Restaurant are two seperate rooms.
He says:
"at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone."
Please DO NOT obfuscate. Do NOT start myths. Jeronimo does NOT say that the time above was when the alarm was raised.
Read what he said again Pfinder
Get your facts right Sadie. 5 minutes alone at the table according to her not 30 minutes.
"In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
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Dianne saw no open window or shutters raised (she tried to raise them fully but could not do it) so any crime scene had already changed before she got there. Whether deliberate or not is for the investigators to conclude.
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I haven't seen the statement from Dianne Webster saying what Kate said. Any chence of a cite please?
From Dianne Webster's statement -
"One of them would stay, or stayed in the apartment while the other one gobbled down their meal and then, so I think Russell, Russell must have gone back and let Jane come and eat her meal because by that time err we’d, we’d ordered our main courses and err Russell had ordered steak and of course he wasn’t at the table when it was ready and he said oh you know (inaudible) to go back, he’ll be back later, once Jane finishes hers err just keep his steak warm err so Jane sort of gobbled down her, her meal and went, went back so that Russell could come and have his dinner and, and this must have been getting on for, I don’t know, maybe ten to ten or something like that. Again I wasn’t looking at the time but just thinking to what happened is that err Russell came back to table and err they’d actually cooked him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
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Gerry was there to order dinner, the waiter said that everyone had finished their dinner apart from one which still had a piece of steak on the plate. So Gerry was at the table after he came back from his check. Dianne Webster also said that Kate said 'she's gone Gerry' when she raised the alarm which proves Gerry was at the table.
This waiter said he was asked to hold a plate of food back, that was the steak then he served it about quarter to 10- When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45.
I know Gerry was there when the alarm was raised but that was before 10 not after IMO.
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From Dianne Webster's statement -
"One of them would stay, or stayed in the apartment while the other one gobbled down their meal and then, so I think Russell, Russell must have gone back and let Jane come and eat her meal because by that time err we’d, we’d ordered our main courses and err Russell had ordered steak and of course he wasn’t at the table when it was ready and he said oh you know (inaudible) to go back, he’ll be back later, once Jane finishes hers err just keep his steak warm err so Jane sort of gobbled down her, her meal and went, went back so that Russell could come and have his dinner and, and this must have been getting on for, I don’t know, maybe ten to ten or something like that. Again I wasn’t looking at the time but just thinking to what happened is that err Russell came back to table and err they’d actually cooked him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
What has that got to do with Dianne allegedly witnessing Gerry searching by the pool after the alarm was raised? I know Gerry was at the table when the alarm was raised. Please cite it or Alfie?
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I haven't seen the statement from Dianne Webster saying what Kate said. Any chence of a cite please?
Diane Webster was interviewed the 11th April 2008 at Leicestershire Constabulary force headquarters in Enderby by the DC 4078 Ferguson.
Relevant extract
4078 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”One of them would stay, or stayed in the apartment while the other one gobbled down their meal and then, so I think Russell, Russell must have gone back and let Jane come and eat her meal because by that time err we’d, we’d ordered our main courses and err Russell had ordered steak and of course he wasn’t at the table when it was ready and he said oh you know (inaudible) to go back, he’ll be back later, once Jane finishes hers err just keep his steak warm err so Jane sort of gobbled down her, her meal and went, went back so that Russell could come and have his dinner and, and this must have been getting on for, I don’t know, maybe ten to ten or something like that. Again I wasn’t looking at the time but just thinking to what happened is that err Russell came back to table and err they’d actually cooked him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”
4078 ”How did she look?”
Reply ”Well I don’t know, frightened or absolutely, well, it’s very difficult to take in when something like that, you know, you’re just sitting at a table having what was a nice meal and err everybody just, you know, stopped what they were doing and just got up and Fiona said to me you know, I said what do you want me to do and she said you stay there in case err you know if Madeleine, because at that time we didn’t know what had happened because I think Gerry had sort of said to Kate oh she can’t be, you know.
end quote
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Gerry, by his own estimation, pinpointed Kate's alarm around 10.13pm.
"Half and hour later without anything to signal, it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house."
Add to this the eyewitness account of Svetlana Vitorino....
"
------- STARIKOVA VITORINO (Russian citizen, with the telephone No "96635 ####) - kitchen assistant:
- Said that, yesterday, one individual, purportedly the father of the missing, left the dinner table where a group of friends (in number 8 or 9), for about 30 minutes. After having returned, a woman whom she believed to be his wife, also left the table, there having passed a few moments, all the guests left the table in question, except one elderly lady, who told her [Svetlana's] colleagues that that child had disappeared.
And an argument can certainly be made for the first scenario you suggest ie an alert around 10.15.
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Diane Webster was interviewed the 11th April 2008 at Leicestershire Constabulary force headquarters in Enderby by the DC 4078 Ferguson.
Relevant extract
4078 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”One of them would stay, or stayed in the apartment while the other one gobbled down their meal and then, so I think Russell, Russell must have gone back and let Jane come and eat her meal because by that time err we’d, we’d ordered our main courses and err Russell had ordered steak and of course he wasn’t at the table when it was ready and he said oh you know (inaudible) to go back, he’ll be back later, once Jane finishes hers err just keep his steak warm err so Jane sort of gobbled down her, her meal and went, went back so that Russell could come and have his dinner and, and this must have been getting on for, I don’t know, maybe ten to ten or something like that. Again I wasn’t looking at the time but just thinking to what happened is that err Russell came back to table and err they’d actually cooked him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”
4078 ”How did she look?”
Reply ”Well I don’t know, frightened or absolutely, well, it’s very difficult to take in when something like that, you know, you’re just sitting at a table having what was a nice meal and err everybody just, you know, stopped what they were doing and just got up and Fiona said to me you know, I said what do you want me to do and she said you stay there in case err you know if Madeleine, because at that time we didn’t know what had happened because I think Gerry had sort of said to Kate oh she can’t be, you know.
end quote
That means nothing if the alarm was raised before 10 because being surrounded by headless chickens one could easily get away.
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Dianne didn't see any crime scene. She saw closed shutters and couldn't raise them. So where was the crime scene? The alleged crime scene was raised shutters and an open window witnessed by the McCanns.
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Gerry, by his own estimation, pinpointed Kate's alarm around 10.13pm.
"Half and hour later without anything to signal, it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house."
Add to this the eyewitness account of Svetlana Vitorino....
"
------- STARIKOVA VITORINO (Russian citizen, with the telephone No "96635 ####) - kitchen assistant:
- Said that, yesterday, one individual, purportedly the father of the missing, left the dinner table where a group of friends (in number 8 or 9), for about 30 minutes. After having returned, a woman whom she believed to be his wife, also left the table, there having passed a few moments, all the guests left the table in question, except one elderly lady, who told her [Svetlana's] colleagues that that child had disappeared.
And an argument can certainly be made for the first scenario you suggest ie an alert around 10.15.
When Russell returned, Kate left shortly after. That is confirmed by all other witnesses including the waiter who served his steak.
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That means nothing if the alarm was raised before 10 because being surrounded by headless chickens one could easily get away.
The idea that Gerry would actually plan to remove Madeleine's body after the alarm had been raised - when he had no idea how quickly the police were going to arrive on the scene is ludicrous. For all he knew they could be there in minutes.
He would have to be a simpleton for that obvious possibility not to occur to him.
IMO
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The idea that Gerry would actually plan to remove Madeleine's body after the alarm had been raised - when he had no idea how quickly the police were going to arrive on the scene is ludicrous. For all he knew they could be there in minutes.
He would have to be a simpleton for that obvious possibility not to occur to him.
IMO
The police be there in minutes? Is that a joke? Did you see the McCanns getting their mobiles out and calling them knowing their daughter was abducted? The Answer is No it didn't happen!
I don't believe Madeleine was in 5A when the alarm was raised. She was already moved out of there.
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That means nothing if the alarm was raised before 10 because being surrounded by headless chickens one could easily get away.
The waiter saw Gerry searching by the pool so in no hurry to rush to where the Smiths saw him, the waiter also said there were a lot of people around, and groups were gathering to search for Madeleine.
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The police be there in minutes? Is that a joke? Did you see the McCanns getting their mobiles out and calling them knowing their daughter was abducted? The Answer is No it didn't happen!
I don't believe Madeleine was in 5A when the alarm was raised. She was already moved out of there.
How could Gerry know beforehand that when Kate raised the alarm - there would be no bystanders or people not in their group around who would be getting their mobiles out and immediately calling the police ? Bar staff? Restaurant staff? Other holiday makers?
Unless he could see into the future and knew beforehand what time the police would arrive -and that no-one else was going to be around to ring the police - the whole idea that he would dash off to move the body AFTER the alarm was raised is preposterous.
IMO
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Dianne didn't see any crime scene. She saw closed shutters and couldn't raise them. So where was the crime scene? The alleged crime scene was raised shutters and an open window witnessed by the McCanns.
Dianne Webster's evidence always reminds me of Manuel in Fawlty Towers; 'I know nothing....... nothing'
She seems to have made an impression on Russell O'Brien, but she's not even sure if she ever met him;
4078 ”Had you met any of the rest of the group before that holiday?”
Reply ”Err yes I’d met them all previously, I knew err Jane and Russell probably better than any of them, I knew Kate and Gerry err Rachael I’d met before but I think, I don’t remember meeting Matt although I think they were at Fiona and Dave’s wedding I may have met him before but err I didn’t meet him really until, or get to know him until that holiday.”
Reply ”Well no I knew err Jane and Russell because when they lived in Leicester they, well Russell was Dave’s best man and err I knew, I knew them before, before then err and I’m trying to think actually, I know I’d met Jane but I don’t think I’d met Russell err but they were close friends of err Fiona and Dave until they moved away to Exeter.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
Dianne WEBSTER is Fiona’s mother we obviously met her through Fiona and Dave PAYNE, we have been friends with them for some time meeting them at Fiona and Dave’s house. We have been for trips out on their boat I’d say we know Dianne quite well.
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
She says she didn't mention meeting Matt; in fact she categorically denied it.
Err and the thing that I didn’t mention at the original err interview in Portugal was that I do vaguely remember seeing Matt, he was coming up because I think he made some joke about coming up to see where we were because we were so late, but he was actually on his way to check err check the children.”
4078 ”Right.”
Reply ”Err so I do, I do remember that although I didn’t remember it clearly at the time err so we got down to the table err I think we ordered our starters.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
Asked directly if someone had gone to her apartment to call them (herself and the PAYNE couple) for dinner the witness said no.
- Asked if there was the possibility of having crossed paths with someone during the journey between her apartment and restaurant, the witness said no.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
Finally she says she was in Madeleine's bedroom, but seems to be mixing up how the door opened with how the door opened in 5H;
4078 ”What could you see of Madeleine’s bed?”
Reply ”Well the, it was neatly turn, what I remember the cover was neatly turned back. I mean her bed was right in the err corner, you went in the door and it was, you’d have to look round the door to err see it, and err it was just neatly turned back and she just wasn’t there.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
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If anything, much of the above goes to show that when it comes to timelines that most witnesses cannot be precise. To take this to the extreme, at least one waiter is recorded as stating that the alarm was raised as early as 9.30pm. We know this was an impossibility when we look at the vast majority of the other statements. One more reason why a reconstruction should have been undertaken within days.
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PF's post was factual, yours wasn't and had no indications that it was a joke. If you have issues with it, take it offline.
Oh please. Sense of humour bypass. You really think anyone would seriously suggest another human being could physically consume 14 bottle of wine in an hour? Of course it was a joke, but you leapt on it as an excuse to give me a warning. PATHETIC.
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I know Gerry was there when the alarm was raised but that was before 10 not after IMO.
Can I just ask - how do you know Gerry was there when the alarm was raised?
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How could Gerry know beforehand that when Kate raised the alarm - there would be no bystanders or people not in their group around who would be getting their mobiles out and immediately calling the police ? Bar staff? Restaurant staff? Other holiday makers?
Unless he could see into the future and knew beforehand what time the police would arrive -and that no-one else was going to be around to ring the police - the whole idea that he would dash off to move the body AFTER the alarm was raised is preposterous.
IMO
They went running off and the bar staff didn't know what was happening except one was left at the table. After that they were out searching so unless you reconstruct where everyone was then you cannot say that one didn't have the opportunity to do it.
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Gerry, by his own estimation, pinpointed Kate's alarm around 10.13pm.
"Half and hour later without anything to signal, it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house."
Add to this the eyewitness account of Svetlana Vitorino....
"
------- STARIKOVA VITORINO (Russian citizen, with the telephone No "96635 ####) - kitchen assistant:
- Said that, yesterday, one individual, purportedly the father of the missing, left the dinner table where a group of friends (in number 8 or 9), for about 30 minutes. After having returned, a woman whom she believed to be his wife, also left the table, there having passed a few moments, all the guests left the table in question, except one elderly lady, who told her [Svetlana's] colleagues that that child had disappeared.
And an argument can certainly be made for the first scenario you suggest ie an alert around 10.15.
Make it then. Remember you will need to add in another absence from the table for Gerry after he returned from his 9pm check and his chat with Jez Wilkins.
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They went running off and the bar staff didn't know what was happening except one was left at the table. After that they were out searching so unless you reconstruct where everyone was then you cannot say that one didn't have the opportunity to do it.
If I'm not mistaken you have the child dead some hours before 10, so why with ample opportunity to move the child before then did they wait until after raising the alarm (PS: if this post is libel then so is PF's suggestion that one of the Tapas 9 had the opportunity to "do it" ).
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My view is that the decision to do the check was made at 10pm give or take a few minutes. Allow a few minutes more for Kate to wander up to 5a from the tapas restaurant, check on the children, find Madeleine missing, search the room and the rest of the apartment and that leaves the alert some time around 10.05pm to 10.10pm. Coincidentally, this happens to be just about the time the Smiths encountered their mystery man.
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Make it then. Remember you will need to add in another absence from the table for Gerry after he returned from his 9pm check and his chat with Jez Wilkins.
According to Jez Wilkins the time of his meeting and chat with Gerry McCann was sometime between 20:45 and 21:15. Jez Wilkins being adamant he could not be more precise.
So that little anomaly needs to be bottomed out with some degree of accuracy otherwise it is yet another gold mine full of pyrites.
The T9 should perhaps be restyled "The ubiquitous 9" ?.
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If I'm not mistaken you have the child dead some hours before 10, so why with ample opportunity to move the child before then did they wait until after raising the alarm (PS: if this post is libel then so is PF's suggestion that one of the Tapas 9 had the opportunity to "do it" ).
Move to where in daylight with many people about? Much safer to find a place and move when it's dark and not many about except for good old Jez.
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According to Jez Wilkins the time of his meeting and chat with Gerry McCann was sometime between 20:45 and 21:15. Jez Wilkins being adamant he could not be more precise.
So that little anomaly needs to be bottomed out with some degree of accuracy otherwise it is yet another gold mine full of pyrites.
The T9 should perhaps be restyled "The ubiquitous 9" ?.
I think Jez was genuine in what he reported and had no way of recalling the time. Fortunately interpolating between other statements we can establish the Gerry/Jez/Jane encounter at about 9.15pm.
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My view is that the decision to do the check was made at 10pm give or take a few minutes. Allow a few minutes more for Kate to wander up to 5a from the tapas restaurant, check on the children, find Madeleine missing, search the room and the rest of the apartment and that leaves the alert some time around 10.05pm to 10.10pm. Coincidentally, this happens to be just about the time the Smiths encountered their mystery man.
This is not just your view, but the view also of 2 police forces. Even Amaral conceded in an interview that it was not possible for Smithman to be Gerry. But is seems that this issue will run and run because some people want to believe. They want to believe it is possible that Gerry was Smithman but it is not possible.
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This is not just your view, but the view also of 2 police forces. Even Amaral conceded in an interview that it was not possible for Smithman to be Gerry. But is seems that this issue will run and run because some people want to believe. They want to believe it is possible that Gerry was Smithman but it is not possible.
I think if the Smiths had met Gerry they would have known it and recalled such in their statements. Even Martin Smith admitted that his identification was based on the way the child was carried and nothing else. Raises the question of course as to how they were able to create two e-fits in the first place? Were they actually based on some innocent association with GM whose picture had been widely disseminated by the Press by that stage?
Again, a reconstruction with the Smiths taking part and GM standing in for Smithman would have cleared this up once and for all.
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If anything, much of the above goes to show that when it comes to timelines that most witnesses cannot be precise. To take this to the extreme, at least one waiter is recorded as stating that the alarm was raised as early as 9.30pm. We know this was an impossibility when we look at the vast majority of the other statements. One more reason why a reconstruction should have been undertaken within days.
What is clear is that 10pm was by no means the agreed time;
Maria Rosa says an English tourist arrived at the Millenium at 22.00 asking if anyone had seen a child.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_ROSA.htm
Emma Wilding says she heard about the disappearance at 22.00
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm
Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira says the whole group had gone from the table at 21.45
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
Barend Jan Jacob Weijdom says he heard the news before 22.00
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BAREND_WEIJDOM.htm
At 21H20, Executive Chef A. E. G. F. P. heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared.
At around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
Property manager B. J. J. W. heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P.B., a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine. He then went to the place where the events occurred which was at about 21.45 - 21.50.
Dinner finished at around 21H45 and some minutes passed where waiter R. A.E D. L. O. looked towards the table but saw no one - his colleague told him that all the guests of that table left rapidly and abruptly. He remembers having heard shouts in the direction of the McCann apartment;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
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Witnesses usually struggle to recall exact times so they revert to the hour or half hour, thus why 10pm features in many of the statements even though the actual time was minutes afterwards.
The only way a witness can recall an exact time is if something occurred which made him or her check their watch. Even then, how many people's watch is set at the right time?
If I were to ask everyone what time they got out of bed yesterday would they be able to oblige to the nearest minute? I know I certainly couldn't do so to the nearest half hour. Any takers? ?{)(**
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What is clear is that 10pm was by no means the agreed time;
Maria Rosa says an English tourist arrived at the Millenium at 22.00 asking if anyone had seen a child.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_ROSA.htm
Emma Wilding says she heard about the disappearance at 22.00
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm
Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira says the whole group had gone from the table at 21.45
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
Barend Jan Jacob Weijdom says he heard the news before 22.00
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BAREND_WEIJDOM.htm
At 21H20, Executive Chef A. E. G. F. P. heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared.
At around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
Property manager B. J. J. W. heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P.B., a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine. He then went to the place where the events occurred which was at about 21.45 - 21.50.
Dinner finished at around 21H45 and some minutes passed where waiter R. A.E D. L. O. looked towards the table but saw no one - his colleague told him that all the guests of that table left rapidly and abruptly. He remembers having heard shouts in the direction of the McCann apartment;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
It was agreed by the Police after studying all the evidence that Kate did her final check at 10pm - it's in the report. Any reason why you think you know better?
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It was agreed by the Police after studying all the evidence that Kate did her final check at 10pm - it's in the report. Any reason why you think you know better?
It's not a case of 'who knows best' it's a case of why they decided on 10pm. They don't explain why, but they certainly discounted quite a lot of evidence which contradicts that time.
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Witnesses usually struggle to recall exact times so they revert to the hour or half hour, thus why 10pm features in many of the statements even though the actual time was minutes afterwards.
The only way a witness can recall an exact time is if something occurred which made him or her check their watch. Even then, how many people's watch is set at the right time?
If I were to ask everyone what time they got out of bed yesterday would they be able to oblige to the nearest minute? I know I certainly couldn't do so to the nearest half hour. Any takers? ?{)(**
A good point and try remembering the same thing days or even weeks back. Nobody can ever be sure the exact time of any event unless it is detailed and documented at the time. I am posting this at 3.27pm on Monday 10 October 2016 so in years to come I can still look back and say so. That is why police officers have note books and use them often.
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It's not a case of 'who knows best' it's a case of why they decided on 10pm. They don't explain why, but they certainly discounted quite a lot of evidence which contradicts that time.
They don't have to justify their reasons for arriving at the conclusion that Kate performed her final check at 10pm, but that is what they concluded based on ALL witness statements. They are the professionals, they are used to dealing with witness statements and piecing together a timeline, so it's about time you tried to come to terms with the fact that Gerry could not have been elsewhere at the time the alarm was raised. There is no question or query about the time of the alarm in their report (thought they have recommendations about other aspects of it) so they must have been pretty sure of themselves on this point.
And even if the Police are completely wrong and the alarm was raised 15 minutes earlier or 15 minutes later than 10pm it would still be verging on the impossible logistically for Gerry to be Smithman anyway - though I don't suppose you would agree with that either.
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Witnesses usually struggle to recall exact times so they revert to the hour or half hour, thus why 10pm features in many of the statements even though the actual time was minutes afterwards.
The only way a witness can recall an exact time is if something occurred which made him or her check their watch. Even then, how many people's watch is set at the right time?
If I were to ask everyone what time they got out of bed yesterday would they be able to oblige to the nearest minute? I know I certainly couldn't do so to the nearest half hour. Any takers? ?{)(**
Getting out of bed in the morning is not a good example. My alarm goes off at 7.15am every morning and I am on my feet and in the shower by 7.20am.
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They went running off and the bar staff didn't know what was happening except one was left at the table. After that they were out searching so unless you reconstruct where everyone was then you cannot say that one didn't have the opportunity to do it.
You are completely missing the point. How could Gerry know beforehand that for instance a couple of waiters were not going to be at their table just as Kate came running back - who could immediately ring the police. How could he know beforehand that a police car was not a mere 5 mins drive away?
You say the bar staff didn't know what was happening but how could Gerry know beforehand that that was going to be the case?
You theory requires Gerry to be able to see into the future at the time he was devising his 'cunning' plan.
Surely you can see the flaw in that?
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Getting out of bed in the morning is not a good example. My alarm goes off at 7.15am every morning and I am on my feet and in the shower by 7.20am. Most people have a morning routine that follows the same time, I'm surprised that you, as a farmer, don't!
You are a slave to routine Alf.
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You are a slave to routine Alf.
Most working people are.
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You are completely missing the point. How could Gerry know beforehand that for instance a couple of waiters were not going to be at their table just as Kate came running back - who could immediately ring the police. How could he know beforehand that a police car was not a mere 5 mins drive away?
You say the bar staff didn't know what was happening but how could Gerry know beforehand that that was going to be the case?
You theory requires Gerry to be able to see into the future at the time he was devising his 'cunning' plan.
Surely you can see the flaw in that?
I'm not missing no point. No way would police be in Luz within minutes especially when the parents didn't call them.
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Get your facts right Sadie. 5 minutes alone at the table according to her not 30 minutes.
"In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
You are changing it Pfinder
You claimed that the waiter Jeronimo stated that the time of 22.20-22.30 was when the alarm was raised. He did NOT.
He merely says that
"at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone."
Nowhere can I find where he says that the alarm was raised at 22.20-22.30
You are not trying to artificially adjust times to fit your (very dicey) theory, are you?
Please would you amend your posts ... You wouldn't want to start yet another myth, would you?
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I think Jez was genuine in what he reported and had no way of recalling the time. Fortunately interpolating between other statements we can establish the Gerry/Jez/Jane encounter at about 9.15pm.
I would agree that for "roughing in" for the purpose of debate we could say approx. 21:15.
The judiciary may be a little more picky about interpolating times from witness statements if the witnesses are loosely of the same affiliation. Or putting it another way are there sufficient independent witness statements to hold sway?
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You are changing it Pfinder...
You claimed that the waiter Jeronimo stated that the time of 22.20-22.30 was when the alarm was raised. He did NOT.
He merely says that
"at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone."
Nowhere can I find where he says that the alarm was raised at 22.20-22.30
You are not trying to artificially adjust times to fit your (very dicey) theory, are you?
Please would you amend your posts ... You wouldn't want to start yet another myth, would you?
After the alarm was raised Dianne was only at the table for 5 minutes. So if she was there at 22:20-22:30 the alarm according to that witness was 10:15 at the earliest. The only myth is these times you quote because we have other documented ones to prove that ain't the truth.
Emma Knight received a call earlier at 10:17 after a woman had travelled to the creche and had heard them out searching for Madeleine. So that puts the alarm being raised well before 10:15.
"22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
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I'm not missing no point. No way would police be in Luz within minutes especially when the parents didn't call them.
Perhaps you can explain to me how Gerry knew in advance that no-one was going to call the police as soon as Kate raised the alarm and how he also knew in advance that it wasn't possible for a police car to be in the vicinity.
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After the alarm was raised Dianne was only at the table for 5 minutes. So if she was there at 22:20-22:30 the alarm according to that witness was 10:15 at the earliest. The only myth is these times you quote because we have other documented ones to prove that ain't the truth.
Emma Knight received a call earlier at 10:17 after a woman had travelled to the creche and had heard them out searching for Madeleine. So that puts the alarm being raised well before 10:15.
"22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Can you please tell me when in your opinion Gerry is supposed to have carried Madeleine to pass the Smith's at 10o'clock ish?
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Perhaps you can explain to me how Gerry knew in advance that no-one was going to call the police as soon as Kate raised the alarm and how he also knew in advance that it wasn't possible for a police car to be in the vicinity.
I care about the facts. No police were there so it doesn't change anything. Fact is nobody called the police straight away.
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Benice: How many crimes do you think there would be if perps thought police were there? Nobody can see into the future and know if a police car is going to pull up outside where a crime is taking place. I follow facts not what If's. What if the McCanns never left their children alone? I'm not interested what if they didn't, the fact is they did and Madeleine disappeared!
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Benice: How many crimes do you think there would be if perps thought police were there? Nobody can see into the future and know if a police car is going to pull up outside where a crime is taking place. I follow facts not what If's. What if the McCanns never left their children alone? I'm not interested what if they didn't, the fact is they did and Madeleine disappeared!
The facts are that Gerry could not see into the future and so had no way of knowing that no-one was going to call the police once Kate raised the alarm - and also had no way of knowing how long it would be before the police arrived.
Therefore he had no way of knowing how long he'd got before they did arrive.
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The facts are that Gerry could not see into the future and so had no way of knowing that no-one was going to call the police once Kate raised the alarm - and also had no way of knowing how long it would be before the police arrived.
Therefore he had no way of knowing how long he'd got before they did arrive.
The actual facts are, you don't know what Gerry McCann was thinking or doing.
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The facts are that Gerry could not see into the future and so had no way of knowing that no-one was going to call the police once Kate raised the alarm - and also had no way of knowing how long it would be before the police arrived.
Therefore he had no way of knowing how long he'd got before they did arrive.
Did that happen? Fact is no police were there when the alarm was raised so it has no relevance to this case. Thanks.
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I started this thread to point out that as far as the investigating forces are concerned Kate discovered Madeleine missing at 10pm and that therefore Gerry could not have been anywhere else at the time. You stated you know Gerry was at the table when the alarm was raised but have failed to tell us how you know this.
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How strange that some people scorn the investigation by the 'bumbling' PJ, but think they did a wonderful job on the timeline when the evidence suggests they never confirmed it at all.
The initial coordinator didn't attempt to confirm it and the second coordinator was prevented from doing so. Quite why the analysis presents 10pm as the time Kate discovered Madeleine gone isn't clear.
Although the entire group was at the table and starting the meal, they began the 'visits' to the children in a way that is neither coherent nor acceptable; that could not be confirmed and only the group defends it, in a sort of 'unique version'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
The establishing of a timeline and of the effective checking of the minors that were left alone inside the apartments, given the fact that, believing that said checking was as tight as the witnesses and the arguidos describe it, it would be, to say the least, very difficult that the conditions were reunited for the introduction of an abductor in the residence and the posterior exit of said individual,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
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How strange that some people scorn the investigation by the 'bumbling' PJ, but think they did a wonderful job on the timeline when the evidence suggests they never confirmed it at all.
The initial coordinator didn't attempt to confirm it and the second coordinator was prevented from doing so. Quite why the analysis presents 10pm as the time Kate discovered Madeleine gone isn't clear.
Although the entire group was at the table and starting the meal, they began the 'visits' to the children in a way that is neither coherent nor acceptable; that could not be confirmed and only the group defends it, in a sort of 'unique version'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
The establishing of a timeline and of the effective checking of the minors that were left alone inside the apartments, given the fact that, believing that said checking was as tight as the witnesses and the arguidos describe it, it would be, to say the least, very difficult that the conditions were reunited for the introduction of an abductor in the residence and the posterior exit of said individual,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
The initial co-ordinator made it quite clear in an interview that he knew Gerry couldn't also be Smithman - I think the word he used was impossible, though of course he then went on to mischievously leave the door open for further speculation on this matter. Neither of your quotes above are particularly relevant to the establishing of the time the alarm was raised as this was decided taking into account not just the McCann group's own timeline. See opening post for a reminder of how the PJ, with help from British counterparts, arrived at this conclusion.
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The initial co-ordinator made it quite clear in an interview that he knew Gerry couldn't also be Smithman - I think the word he used was impossible, though of course he then went on to mischievously leave the door open for further speculation on this matter. Neither of your quotes above are particularly relevant to the establishing of the time the alarm was raised as this was decided taking into account not just the McCann group's own timeline. See opening post for a reminder of how the PJ, with help from British counterparts, arrived at this conclusion.
As it's a summary of a 14 page report it's not possible to offer an opinion as to why they discounted the statements which contradicted the time of 10pm. It is possible to identify at least one mistake in their work, however;
On 3rd May at about 18.00 (when she left the Kids club) until 22.00 when her mother gave the alert, nobody apart from the parents, Kate and Gerry, saw Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm
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After the alarm was raised Dianne was only at the table for 5 minutes. So if she was there at 22:20-22:30 the alarm according to that witness was 10:15 at the earliest. The only myth is these times you quote because we have other documented ones to prove that ain't the truth.
Emma Knight received a call earlier at 10:17 after a woman had travelled to the creche and had heard them out searching for Madeleine. So that puts the alarm being raised well before 10:15.
"22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Haven't you bothered to read my posts where I quote Jeronimos statements. He differs by nearly an hour between the two statements.
22.20-22.30 in the one (but that was NOT the time of the alert) and 21.30 - 22.00 in the other. Jeronimo , nice bloke that he seems, aint very good at times.
Thec actual time seems to be in the middle somewhere.
Why are you quoting such a forgetful witness re the times? I cant help noticing that once again you have been cherry picking the best time to fit your, frankly rubbish, theory.
Anthing to make that seem bonafide, eh Pfinder?