It has been said repeatedly, on this forum and elsewhere that the Mccanns received many letters from people saying they did the same as the Mccanns, and ergo by implication, what the Mccanns did was perfectly normal behaviour.
Yet this claim has never been substantiated.
Several posters on here have claimed to have done the same, but as they support the Mccanns, their claims could well be viewed as bias.
I know of a couple, the parents of one of my students, who left their young son , a 4 year old , in a hotel while they went out to dinner, with the door locked. He got out with a key, and wandered off. Fortunately, local people found him and returned him to the hotel and his scared parents. Needless to say, they did not repeat that behaviour, and it was in my view negligent, which they admit they were.
So , by what logic do people believe the Mccanns actions were acceptable ?
It has been said repeatedly, on this forum and elsewhere that the Mccanns received many letters from people saying they did the same as the Mccanns, and ergo by implication, what the Mccanns did was perfectly normal behaviour.
Yet this claim has never been substantiated.
Several posters on here have claimed to have done the same, but as they support the Mccanns, their claims could well be viewed as bias.
I know of a couple, the parents of one of my students, who left their young son , a 4 year old , in a hotel while they went out to dinner, with the door locked. He got out with a key, and wandered off. Fortunately, local people found him and returned him to the hotel and his scared parents. Needless to say, they did not repeat that behaviour, and it was in my view negligent, which they admit they were.
So , by what logic do people believe the Mccanns actions were acceptable ?
Sorry, but your story about your friends doesn't ring true. Hotels only give out one room key so either the parents were locked out or the son wasn't locked in.
Sorry, but your story about your friends doesn't ring true. Hotels only give out one room key so either the parents were locked out or the son wasn't locked in.
Most hotel rooms can by opened from the inside without a key.
I know. Read Stephen's story again.
Believe what you wish.
I have merely recalled what I was told.
So whether you accept it or not, is irrelevant.
Meanwhile what the Mccanns did, was inexcusable.
I did and assumed it was either an old hotel or a minor error in the detail.
It was so inexcusable it has been repeated many times (in many forms) since Madeleine went missing, with no legal impediment.
Cite.
Any parents doing what the McCann's did, should be charged with negligence at the very minimum.
"Here's my baby on display for abductors".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3698048/Woman-locked-child-inside-car-went-shopping-40-minutes.html
Just a ticking off from the police officers.
One. Wow.
Either the child had access to a key or it didn't. If there was no additional key then the parents would have know the door lock operated. Whilst locking it prevented access by strangers from outside it did not minimise the risks to the child inside.
There are loads mfore. I'm sure you know how to google them.
Rather like GM's claims that he received many letters of support - do you really think he should have wasted precious time uploading copies of them all onto the net merely to prove his & Kate's actions were not unprecedented? Some saddo would have spent hours trying to prove the letters were all fabricated.
You can quote as many as you wish.
It I'll never be an excuse for neglect.
As to McCann, I take his claims, unless verified with a pinch of salt.
Any idea Misty of how many parents are charged and/or convicted of neglect of their children ?
That is far more pertinent.
Do you want cases of pure neglect as opposed to child abuse? Do you want cases where neglect has resulted in no physical harm to the child as opposed to those where harm has occurred?
Is this like the drink drivers who don't have an accident?
Possibly. It's important to establish the correct statistics as more sober drivers have accidents than drunk drivers.
You have to be careful with statistics there, of course. Is it the case that because the majority of drivers are sober there is, in effect, a larger 'population' of (sober!) drivers to have accidents than there are drunk?
If so, the more telling statistic would be what proportion of all drunk-drivers who take to the road have accidents versus the proportion of all sober drivers.
I had assumed misty was joking...
You'll never know. 8)--))
You have to be careful with statistics there, of course. Is it the case that because the majority of drivers are sober there is, in effect, a larger 'population' of (sober!) drivers to have accidents than there are drunk?
If so, the more telling statistic would be what proportion of all drunk-drivers who take to the road have accidents versus the proportion of all sober drivers.
90 odd % of whom had been eating potatoes in the previous 24 hours.100% of them had consumed water in some form.
I wasn't referring to you Eleanor, merely Gerry Mccann.
I presume you're not Gerry Mccann. 8**8:/:
After all, all the Mccanns had to do was publish letters of 'support' with names redacted.
How many letters of support would they have to publish for you to accept them as proof that they had received thousands?
Even if they had published every letter they had received (with names redacated) would your response have been :-
a) Sorry I got it wrong and they did receive 1000s of letters of support.
or
b) But we only have their word for it that they are genuine letters.
Do tell.
100% of them had consumed water in some form.
What form of potatoes was referred to or was it just a generalisation?
Well, where are these letters ?
It wouldn't take much.
That doesn't include of course any from the supporters club, which does appear to be rather dwindling.
What wouldn't take much? Are you saying it wouldn't take many letters (with names redacted) to convince you they had received 1000s of letters of support - or that it wouldn't take much to publish 1000s of letters? Please clarify.
It's not relevant how many people use listening services in closed resorts and hotels because the Ocean Club was neither of those; that's why there was no listening service there.
Baby monitor use is also not relevant because there wasn't one used.
UK law says children mustn't be left home alone if it puts them at risk. So the question is were those three children at risk alone in that apartment?
I've never used a travel cot but they look quite flimsy to me as a secure place for an active toddler. An almost 4 year old can clearly leave it's bed.
Once children are out of bed there are all the dangers which are present in any home. In this case there;s an unlocked door to a high balcony also.
Anyone who says three small children weren't at risk of harming themselves if left alone in that apartment is in denial in my opinion. People have been arrested for much less.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11498123/Arrests-for-leaving-kids-home-alone-made-every-day.html
Just evidence.
You know what that is, don't you ?
Meanwhile, no excuses for the McCanns Benice. Since there aren't any for what they did, or anyone, no matter how few others, have or would do the same.
The McCanns were not at home - they were on holiday where for decades it has been an accepted practice that people can leave their sleeping children alone in their room having made arrangements for them to be checked regularly. If they are breaking the law then why haven't the parents who have used this type of childcare been hauled before the courts in their thousands via Social Services for doing so? Why haven't hoteliers and tour operators been arrested for inciting people to put their children in the danger which you describe can happen when children are are left alone? Why haven't parents who use baby alarms and do not physically check their children been charged with neglect via Social Services?
Constantly trying to apply the rules which apply at home to people who are on holiday is a non- starter because as illogical as it is - (and IMO it definitely is illogical) - those rules have not applied for decades when it comes to people on holiday.
I would bet my house on the fact that 99% of those parents who did and still do leave their children asleep in bed and go to dinner whilst on holiday would not dream of doing that at home - but people have a different mindset when on holiday and the psychological effect of knowing that reputable hoteliers and tour operators advertise this as a service is enough IMO to lull parents into a false sense of security. IIRC Mark Warner have withdrawn the Listening Service because they have now recognised that it was doing just that. (from memory)
The only people who are in denial are those that refuse to accept any of the above IMO.
Your link makes no comment on the childcare arrangements which have clearly been regarded as acceptable for families on holiday for decades - so is not relevant IMO.
AIMHO
'........ where for decades it has been an accepted practice that people can leave their sleeping children alone in their room having made arrangements for them to be checked regularly.................'
WORDS FAIL.
In a variety of holiday venues in this country and abroad.
The McCanns were not at home - they were on holiday where for decades it has been an accepted practice that people can leave their sleeping children alone in their room having made arrangements for them to be checked regularly. If they are breaking the law then why haven't the parents who have used this type of childcare been hauled before the courts in their thousands via Social Services for doing so? Why haven't hoteliers and tour operators been arrested for inciting people to put their children in the danger which you describe can happen when children are are left alone? Why haven't parents who use baby alarms and do not physically check their children been charged with neglect via Social Services?
Constantly trying to apply the rules which apply at home to people who are on holiday is a non- starter because as illogical as it is - (and IMO it definitely is illogical) - those rules have not applied for decades when it comes to people on holiday.
I would bet my house on the fact that 99% of those parents who did and still do leave their children asleep in bed and go to dinner whilst on holiday would not dream of doing that at home - but people have a different mindset when on holiday and the psychological effect of knowing that reputable hoteliers and tour operators advertise this as a service is enough IMO to lull parents into a false sense of security. IIRC Mark Warner have withdrawn the Listening Service because they have now recognised that it was doing just that. (from memory)
The only people who are in denial are those that refuse to accept any of the above IMO.
Your link makes no comment on the childcare arrangements which have clearly been regarded as acceptable for families on holiday for decades - so is not relevant IMO.
AIMHO
Using a service offered by a holiday operator is one thing. What the McCanns did was another thing. Why you insist on pretending two different things are the same I don't know - well, I can guess.
Nothing you say alters the fact that those particular children were left alone in an unsafe environment. Not only that, we are expected to believe that their parents didn't notice the hazards.
They took a risk IMO
what pissed people off was not admitting they did and that were not at fault and actually refused when asked by a bbc reported inaninterview go advise other parents not to do the same whether for fear of strangers entering or other risks
Their arrogance and hubris were responsible for alot of bad press
Using a service offered by a holiday operator is one thing. What the McCanns did was another thing. Why you insist on pretending two different things are the same I don't know - well, I can guess.
Nothing you say alters the fact that those particular children were left alone in an unsafe environment. Not only that, we are expected to believe that their parents didn't notice the hazards.
So YOU are saying that using a listening service provided by an hotel is OK, but doing the same yourself is not OK ?It is the going inside that is the problem.
Gawd strewth Gunit the hotels (and Butlins) did not go into the place, they just listened outside.
The Tapas group actually went into the apartments and observed (altho poor Matt missed looking around the corner at Madeleine). I feel so sorry for that poor guy and for Jane. They have taken some stick !
As for listening devices at reception! They would be a very poor substitution, because as soon as reception got very busy (such as checking a line up of new guests in) the listening devices would very much take a back seat.
I doubt that an abduction using drugs and thru the front door would have been heard or noticed by reception anyway.
So YOU are saying that using a listening service provided by an hotel is OK, but doing the same yourself is not OK ?
Gawd strewth Gunit the hotels (and Butlins) did not go into the place, they just listened outside.
The Tapas group actually went into the apartments and observed (altho poor Matt missed looking around the corner at Madeleine). I feel so sorry for that poor guy and for Jane. They have taken some stick !
As for listening devices at reception! They would be a very poor substitution, because as soon as reception got very busy (such as checking a line up of new guests in) the listening devices would very much take a back seat.
I doubt that an abduction using drugs and thru the front door would have been heard or noticed by reception anyway.
Using a service offered by a holiday operator is one thing. What the McCanns did was another thing. Why you insist on pretending two different things are the same I don't know - well, I can guess.
Nothing you say alters the fact that those particular children were left alone in an unsafe environment. Not only that, we are expected to believe that their parents didn't notice the hazards.
What is the difference between leaving your children asleep and going for a meal having arranged for them to be checked by a member of staff at regular intervals - and leaving your children asleep and going for a meal and checking them yourself at regular intervals? In both scenarios the children are being checked. To say otherwise is nitpicking IMO.
You have missed the point I was making - which is not about the safety aspects but the fact that - regardless of the rights or wrongs of it - thousands of other parents have done the same as the McCanns when on holiday - and some still do. That is a fact which is carefully avoided by sceptics..
IMO this can only be because they know they can't accuse the McCanns of being neglectful parents without also accusing those thousands of other parents of being the same. Their answer to that 'problem' is to studiously ignore their very existence and pretend that it is only the McCanns who ever opted for this type of childcare. That is clearly not true.
What other reason can there be for such a massive avoidance of a very relevant fact concerning the childcare arrangements made by thousands of decent loving parents when on holiday - of which the McCanns were just one couple?
AIMHO
What is the difference between leaving your children asleep and going for a meal having arranged for them to be checked by a member of staff at regular intervals - and leaving your children asleep and going for a meal and checking them yourself at regular intervals? In both scenarios the children are being checked. To say otherwise is nitpicking IMO.
You have missed the point I was making - which is not about the safety aspects but the fact that - regardless of the rights or wrongs of it - thousands of other parents have done the same as the McCanns when on holiday - and some still do. That is a fact which is carefully avoided by sceptics..
IMO this can only be because they know they can't accuse the McCanns of being neglectful parents without also accusing those thousands of other parents of being the same. Their answer to that 'problem' is to studiously ignore their very existence and pretend that it is only the McCanns who ever opted for this type of childcare. That is clearly not true.
What other reason can there be for such a massive avoidance of a very relevant fact concerning the childcare arrangements made by thousands of decent loving parents when on holiday - of which the McCanns were just one couple?
AIMHO
You keep saying 'thousands of people have done the same', yet you cannot prodice any figures,and all we actually hear are the odd anecdote.
You need to come up with CITES which can be verified, not hearsay.
So my word for the fact that I and several of my friends did it is not good enough.
It took me some time to admit to this on a Forum, on several occasions, including this one, and I took some abuse for it. But the fact remains that we did.
It doesn't make it acceptable behaviour, does it.
You are also evading the issue Eleanor.
Where is the evidence of these thousands of thousands of people who have done the same as the Mccanns ?
That is what I want to hear.
It was and is perfectly acceptable behaviour to me, and everyone I knew.
You simply aren't going to get the sort of proof that you are demanding. And you wouldn't believe it if letters were provided. Who are these people, and if you like, who am I?
The McCanns are not duty bound to provide proof, and it wouldn't make any difference if they did. These letters were only offered in support. They were gestures.
I'm afraid leaving children for extended periods is not acceptable, let alone in unlocked accomodation.
Why don't you read what the NSPCC and other organizations say on this issue.
That has been done on this forum before.
Mccann made the claim about thousands of letters, not me or anyone else.
..and remember this, people have been charged and convicted for neglect in this country, and have you forgotten what the ex-Portuguese Minister said about the Mccanns escaping charges of 'abandonment' ?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/1151476/revealed-why-the-portuguese-police-didnt-charge-mccanns-for-childrens-abandonment-after-maddie-disappeared/
So my word for the fact that I and several of my friends did it is not good enough.
It took me some time to admit to this on a Forum, on several occasions, including this one, and I took some abuse for it. But the fact remains that we did.
This is only in your opinion, Stephen. The McCanns did not abandon their children and nor have they ever been charged, even with neglect. And nor have the many thousands of people who have used this system over many years.
And I very much doubt that The NSPCC would recommend prosecution under the same or even similar circumstances.
I cannot and will not judge them.
Did you leave your door unlocked leading to a high balcony with furniture to climb on? If not, you didn't do the same.
Under Portuguese law, they should have been charged, and could have faced jail (or gaol), as would have any citizen of that country doing what they did.
No Intent, Stephen. That appears to be the law in Portugal. And there was none.
No Intent, Stephen. That appears to be the law in Portugal. And there was none.
They left their children alone.
It was intentional to leave them in unlocked accomodation and without protection, and it was repeated behaviour.
Cardinal principle of criminal law under both the adversarial and (It seems!) the inquisitorial criminal codes.
So my word for the fact that I and several of my friends did it is not good enough.
It took me some time to admit to this on a Forum, on several occasions, including this one, and I took some abuse for it. But the fact remains that we did.
I think it is highly likely that more people could say the same Eleanor, but don't because of the abuse that would follow.
Quote from: Tootypopper on November 09, 2013, 04:59:40 PM
Hi! Mum and Dad would scrimp all year to take us on a little holiday to Butlines and what a time we all had! Mum and Dad used the listening service while they had a drink at the club and they would be heart broken if some body were to say that they abandoned us kids.
I am on the fence in this case of Madeleine but if people are saying that they abandoned their kids then they are also saying that my Mum and Dad abandoned us and I find that a bit offensive. This family did just the same as my Mum and Dad did.
End quote
The service may have ended at Butlins, but a hulluva lot of people used it in the 40 or more years it was on offer and it has certainly carried on in various other holiday venues, and is still offered today. That can only be because there is a demand for it by parents.
Millions of families have been going on holiday every year for decades, the idea that the no. of parents who have opted for the listening service is not in the hundreds of thousands (even millions) by now - is not even vaguely credible IMO.
AIMHO
I thought twice about admitting it, mainly due to the abuse I knew I would get. But basic honestly wouldn't allow me to keep quiet.
No, I'm not sorry for doing it or for admitting it.
Can I suggest acknowledging rather than admitting?
Admitting does imply some feeling of guilt.
It has been said repeatedly, on this forum and elsewhere that the Mccanns received many letters from people saying they did the same as the Mccanns, and ergo by implication, what the Mccanns did was perfectly normal behaviour.
Yet this claim has never been substantiated.
Several posters on here have claimed to have done the same, but as they support the Mccanns, their claims could well be viewed as bias.
I know of a couple, the parents of one of my students, who left their young son , a 4 year old , in a hotel while they went out to dinner, with the door locked. He got out with a key, and wandered off. Fortunately, local people found him and returned him to the hotel and his scared parents. Needless to say, they did not repeat that behaviour, and it was in my view negligent, which they admit they were.
So , by what logic do people believe the Mccanns actions were acceptable ?
It's just a use of words, Ferryman. I might have said I am not ashamed, which I am not. I have no sense or feeling of guilt over this. Oh, and I did do it several times.
I eventually sent them all off to Boarding School. Another Guilt Trip that half the population would like me to take. That didn't work either.
We hear week in, week out that the defendant in a court case has shown no remorse or felt no guilt for the crime he has just been found guilty of. Does that make him innocent? Does the fact that you, and your friends, feel no guilt for leaving your children alone negate the fact that it was wrong? A genuine question.
A more interesting question would be even if the McCanns had received the thousands of letters, described by Gerry, saying the letter's sender had done the same thing would that make what they did right or would that simply make them as negligent as the McCanns?
This not a genuine question because you imply that I committed a crime, or at the very least some sort of wrong doing.
I committed no Crime or wrong doing, so I have no reason for feeling remorse or guilt.
However, should one of my children have been stolen then no doubt I would beat myself up for the rest of my life when in fact it was The Abductor who committed the crime.
Will he be feeling remorse, do you think?
This is simply a matter of opinion. Just because you think it is wrong doesn't actually make it so.
If you didn't believe that what you did was, at the least, questionable why were you so slow to admit it?
You really can't have it both ways Eleanor. We were told that the letters sent by the public to the McCanns admitting they had also left their children alone somehow makes that act acceptable. Yet in every comments sections under every article about the McCanns contributors in their thousands, whether they think the couple were complicit in their daughter's disappearance or not, state that leaving their children alone was wrong. Does that therefore mean it was?
Anyone who has left a child alone and gone out has put their own needs above the needs of their child.
All circumstances are different in some way. You make risk assessments according to where you are, and a basic knowledge of your own children. Very few people just walk out of the door and think everything will be alright.
However, an abductor coming along and stealing a child wasn't a risk assessment that anyone would have made prior to 2007.
Anyone seeing that particular apartment as a safe place to leave small children alone needs to look again imo. Let's not bring an alleged abduction into it, we're discussing the decision to leave small children in that apartment.
Only in your opinion. You pay no attention to circumstances.
I never saw my children as a cross to bear, unlike some of you seem to do. And I wouldn't mind betting that some of yours are sick to death of hearing about how much you sacrificed for them
No it's a fact, they are not a cross to bear and we are still very close with them and the grandchildren. Any parent who has left a child has done a basic risk vs reward calculation and decided the reward outweighs the risk.
Obviously Portugal doesn't agree with you.
Posted by ALGARVERESIDENT on August 17, 2007
Thousands of letters for support
KATE AND Gerry McCann received seven thousand emails and countless letters of support last weekend, which marked 100 days since Madeleine disappeared. The couple have now thanked “the thousands of people who have written messages of support” to them.Some of the comments in the letters the couple received included: “We are in solidarity with you and believe in Madeleine’s return. I hope she returns alive as soon as possible”, from an identified Portuguese retired teacher; and “I am praying that God will bring your agony to an end very soon and Madeleine will be found” from a housewife in Belfast.
http://portugalresident.com/thousands-of-letters-for-support?qt-why_pick_us=0
Read what the Portuguese ex-Minister said about abandonment .
Posted by ALGARVERESIDENT on August 17, 2007
Thousands of letters for support
KATE AND Gerry McCann received seven thousand emails and countless letters of support last weekend, which marked 100 days since Madeleine disappeared. The couple have now thanked “the thousands of people who have written messages of support” to them.Some of the comments in the letters the couple received included: “We are in solidarity with you and believe in Madeleine’s return. I hope she returns alive as soon as possible”, from an identified Portuguese retired teacher; and “I am praying that God will bring your agony to an end very soon and Madeleine will be found” from a housewife in Belfast.
http://portugalresident.com/thousands-of-letters-for-support?qt-why_pick_us=0
Anyone who has left a child alone and gone out has put their own needs above the needs of their child.
Were they Charged?
They should have been as would citizens of Portugal having done the same.
Read what the Portuguese ex-Minister said about abandonment .
But they weren't, because there was No Intent. This is a fact. And all the wishful thinking in the world won't change it.
Is that why he's an ex-minister?
Posted by ALGARVERESIDENT on August 17, 2007
Thousands of letters for support
KATE AND Gerry McCann received seven thousand emails and countless letters of support last weekend, which marked 100 days since Madeleine disappeared. The couple have now thanked “the thousands of people who have written messages of support” to them.Some of the comments in the letters the couple received included: “We are in solidarity with you and believe in Madeleine’s return. I hope she returns alive as soon as possible”, from an identified Portuguese retired teacher; and “I am praying that God will bring your agony to an end very soon and Madeleine will be found” from a housewife in Belfast.
http://portugalresident.com/thousands-of-letters-for-support?qt-why_pick_us=0
Yeah! good article. It is a bit light on words to the effect "we the udersigned wholeheartedly support your decision to leave your children alone at night while you dined". So may be it's not that relevant after all.
Like my daddy once said: "there are ways and ways of telling the truth so you can lead someone up the garden path without actually having to lie".
I wasn't slow to admit it. I first admitted it on 3As back in early 2008 as Sabot, you know, Maureen Eleanor Lang. But then everybody knows that.
My children and grandchildren think I am wonderful and a really brave spirit. And I've got letters to prove it.
So it wasn't true when you claimed this in post 47?
"It took me some time to admit to this on a Forum, on several occasions, including this one"
Thousands of letters to the McCanns where the senders admit leaving children alone = acceptable behaviour.
Hundreds of thousands of comments from the general public condemning the McCanns for their neglegent behaviour = ?
You see my point? A certain amount of public support cannot be used to justify behaviour when a greater number feel it is abhorrent.
I'm sure they do Eleanor. I wonder though if they would think you were quite so wonderful if they had faced a fire or injured themselves permanently while small and alone?
Golly gosh it always amazes me how on the ball you sometimes are with what I'm thinking
I think you should really consider doing so as you appear to have put your own interpretation on what posters on this forum and elsewhere actually did say.
Unfortunately you have not had the grace to back up your OP claim with even one cite ...
"It has been said repeatedly, on this forum and elsewhere that the Mccanns received many letters from people saying they did the same as the Mccanns, and ergo by implication, what the Mccanns did was perfectly normal behaviour."
Go on ... be a devil and show us the source of even just a couple of these alleged comments.
You miss my point.I can see your point, they can see your point they just do not like it as it does not fit in with the McCanns morality swim in that Egyptian river...de nile. It wasn't us gov,nope we don't know anything. apart from it wasn't us.
Thousands of letters to the McCanns where the senders admit leaving children alone = acceptable behaviour.
Hundreds of thousands of comments from the general public condemning the McCanns for their neglegent behaviour = ?
You see my point? A certain amount of public support cannot be used to justify behaviour when a greater number feel it is abhorrent.
Have you forgotten what Gerry McCann said ?
In what respect by the way is it normal behaviour to leave very young children by themselves and totally unprotected ?
I can see your point, they can see your point they just do not like it as it does not fit in with the McCanns morality swim in that Egyptian river...de nile. It wasn't us gov,nope we don't know anything. apart from it wasn't us.
Oh. oh. oh. I worked it out...'Hundreds of thousands of comments from the general public condemning the McCanns for their neglegent behaviour = McCann bashers/abusers/evil trolls! 8**8:/:
There may indeed have been "hundreds of thousands of comments" of condemnation but that these may have been made by the "general public" is stretching credulity a bit.
For example, I imagine you must have contributed quite a cache over the years to the 'hundreds and thousands' and may even have churned out a few hundred thousands of your own.
It is all very negative, don't you think?
Much better to think positively and whatever you may think of Madeleine's parents ... please be aware the majority of the 'general public' probably never give it a single thought ... beyond wishing Madeleine well.
The topic of the thread is "Gerry McCann claimed that they received many letters of support" Which they did; and these are the only ones which matter in the real world
There may indeed have been "hundreds of thousands of comments" of condemnation but that these may have been made by the "general public" is stretching credulity a bit.
For example, I imagine you must have contributed quite a cache over the years to the 'hundreds and thousands' and may even have churned out a few hundred thousands of your own.
It is all very negative, don't you think?
Much better to think positively and whatever you may think of Madeleine's parents ... please be aware the majority of the 'general public' probably never give it a single thought ... beyond wishing Madeleine well.
The topic of the thread is "Gerry McCann claimed that they received many letters of support" Which they did; and these are the only ones which matter in the real world
So letters of support matter but ones of criticism don't?
So letters of support matter but ones of criticism don't?
What credence should one give to cowardly, anonymous 'poison pen' ravings on the internet? Quote - Hundreds of thousands of comments from the general public condemning the McCanns ... - End quote
Not worth the hot air they are written on.
Whereas signed letters and emails can be a huge comfort and support to grieving parents, as were the ones the McCanns thanked people for sending to them in their hour of need ... Quote - One letter, signed from a housewife in England, said: "Please hold on to the belief that the vast majority of people who have been following the news from Portugal send you their love, support and prayers.
"Your strength and commitment are an inspiration. I so hope that Madeleine will be with you safe and well, as soon as possible." - End quote
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1560596/McCanns-lifted-by-sackfuls-of-support.html
Steady on brietta
Not all questions or criticisms if the parents their actions heaviour and statements have been poisined pen letters
(http://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2012/01/03/09/027MccannsDM_468x374.jpg)
The comfort of strangers: Gerry and Kate McCann with letters of support
Yesterday, Kate and Gerry McCann thanked the thousands of people who have written messages of support to them.
Last weekend alone, the couple received 7,000 e-mails of support and countless letters of support.
A retired Portuguese teacher told them: "We are in solidarity with you and believe in Madeleine's return. I hope she returns alive as soon as possible."
And a British housewife urged them to "hold on to the believe that the vast majority of people who have been following the news from Portugal send you their love, support and prayers. Your strength and commitment are an inspiration. I so hope that Madeleine will be with you safe and well, as soon as possible."
Perhaps the most poignant was a message of love from a child called Lucy, who drew a picture and wished Madeleine would "come home soon".
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-police-too-busy-to-tell-parents-they-think-shes-dead-7262867.html
Have you forgotten what Gerry McCann said ?
In what respect by the way is it normal behaviour to leave very young children by themselves and totally unprotected ?
A lot has happened since that article appeared on 15 August 2007. It would be interesting to know whether those same letter writers feel the same now. Anyone hazard a guess based on more recent developments?
A lot has happened since that article appeared on 15 August 2007. It would be interesting to know whether those same letter writers feel the same now. Anyone hazard a guess based on more recent developments?
I think the support for Madeleine's parents in their campaign on her behalf is ongoing.
Particularly as I cannot conceive of anyone (with the exception of those directly involved in taking Madeleine) who wouldn't wish that her case is eventually brought to a satisfactory conclusion.
So although I have little doubt they won't be inundated with the volume of cards and letters on the daily basis they were in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance ... people still continue to keep them and Madeleine in their thoughts.
Quote
Christmas 2015
Thank you for all the support given to the charity (Missing People) this year.
Thank you also for all the lovely Christmas cards we’ve received. It gives us a lot of pleasure and comfort to sit down together and share your kind messages, with the reassurance that Madeleine has not been forgotten.
End quote
http://findmadeleine.com/updates/index.html
Quote
The McCanns spoke of their gratitude at the help they are getting from Scotland Yard's ongoing review of the case.
And they repeated their hope that Portuguese police will now reopen the case.
Mr McCann said: "In previous years we have felt like we have been on our own to a large extent and now we have got (a) tremendous resource, doing a great job.
"We feel so much better supported and you know that those things that we have been talking about for the last three-and-a-half years about looking at every single piece of information, that's going on.
"We are happy to be led by the police and let the Metropolitan Police do the negotiations with the Portuguese authorities.
"But it does feel now finally someone in the authorities, British authorities, are actually trying to find Madeleine, who is completely innocent of course."
Mrs McCann also thanked the public for the support they had received for their campaign.
"I don't believe we would have got the review without their support," she said.
"People have petitioned and petitioned and petitioned and you know, wrote letters, and here we are.
"And we just hope, obviously, that the case will get reopened in due course because we certainly believe that is our best shot at finding Madeleine."
End quote
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/latest-news/madeleine-mccann-website-uses-maddy-823535
I think the support for Madeleine's parents in their campaign on her behalf is ongoing.
Particularly as I cannot conceive of anyone (with the exception of those directly involved in taking Madeleine) who wouldn't wish that her case is eventually brought to a satisfactory conclusion.
So although I have little doubt they won't be inundated with the volume of cards and letters on the daily basis they were in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance ... people still continue to keep them and Madeleine in their thoughts.
Quote
Christmas 2015
Thank you for all the support given to the charity (Missing People) this year.
Thank you also for all the lovely Christmas cards we’ve received. It gives us a lot of pleasure and comfort to sit down together and share your kind messages, with the reassurance that Madeleine has not been forgotten.
End quote
http://findmadeleine.com/updates/index.html
Quote
The McCanns spoke of their gratitude at the help they are getting from Scotland Yard's ongoing review of the case.
And they repeated their hope that Portuguese police will now reopen the case.
Mr McCann said: "In previous years we have felt like we have been on our own to a large extent and now we have got (a) tremendous resource, doing a great job.
"We feel so much better supported and you know that those things that we have been talking about for the last three-and-a-half years about looking at every single piece of information, that's going on.
"We are happy to be led by the police and let the Metropolitan Police do the negotiations with the Portuguese authorities.
"But it does feel now finally someone in the authorities, British authorities, are actually trying to find Madeleine, who is completely innocent of course."
Mrs McCann also thanked the public for the support they had received for their campaign.
"I don't believe we would have got the review without their support," she said.
"People have petitioned and petitioned and petitioned and you know, wrote letters, and here we are.
"And we just hope, obviously, that the case will get reopened in due course because we certainly believe that is our best shot at finding Madeleine."
End quote
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/latest-news/madeleine-mccann-website-uses-maddy-823535
There is a big difference between offering support as against supporting their child minding practises. I would say many people have done so and continue to leave young children unattended while on holiday but that doesn't make it acceptable or sound behaviour.
My own view, which some might find old fashioned, is that if you bring children into this world you have a legal and moral obligation to protect them from harm regardless of the circumstances you find yourself in. Far too often we hear about parents who put their own needs and desires before that of their children.
PS. I have altered the thread title slightly as it was misleading.
What would you consider to be a satisfactory conclusion?
Do you think what I consider would be a satisfactory conclusion to Madeleine's case would match your idea of the same?
Sorry John ... I think this thread title is even more so ... all that was amiss with the last one was that it didn't match the OP.
My apologies, I have changed it to something more representative of the existing posts.
Kate: I've had so many letters from mothers, really kind words. They have said, 'Kate, we've done this a hundred times over ourselves'. I wanted to say thank you for that support and reassurance.
Lori Campbell In Praia Da Luz, Portugal
05/08/2007
Gerry: "Despite everything that has been written, we're still receiving many messages of support. All the letters we have received have been positive."
How much mail have you received?
Gerry: "We've been getting three big crates of mail every day. It's so much we have to collect it from the post office. We didn't think it was fair on our post lady.
"It's tailed off slightly, but we're still receiving a big box of letters every day. It's incredible."
Lee Marlow
Thursday 04 October 2007
Kate: I've had so many letters from mothers, really kind words. They have said, 'Kate, we've done this a hundred times over ourselves'. I wanted to say thank you for that support and reassurance.
Lori Campbell In Praia Da Luz, Portugal
05/08/2007
Gerry: "Despite everything that has been written, we're still receiving many messages of support. All the letters we have received have been positive."
How much mail have you received?
Gerry: "We've been getting three big crates of mail every day. It's so much we have to collect it from the post office. We didn't think it was fair on our post lady.
"It's tailed off slightly, but we're still receiving a big box of letters every day. It's incredible."
Lee Marlow
Thursday 04 October 2007
Kate: I've had so many letters from mothers, really kind words. They have said, 'Kate, we've done this a hundred times over ourselves'. I wanted to say thank you for that support and reassurance.
Lori Campbell In Praia Da Luz, Portugal
05/08/2007
Gerry: "Despite everything that has been written, we're still receiving many messages of support. All the letters we have received have been positive."
How much mail have you received?
Gerry: "We've been getting three big crates of mail every day. It's so much we have to collect it from the post office. We didn't think it was fair on our post lady.
"It's tailed off slightly, but we're still receiving a big box of letters every day. It's incredible."
Lee Marlow
Thursday 04 October 2007
Found two for you B
:)
The third is a removed article, more donkey work will be required, but only by someone who is that interested to confirm the reliability of PFs quotes
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/4aug7/SUNDAY_MIRROR_05_08_07.htm
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic10649.html
Thank you Pathfinder for finding that.
I knew the Mccanns had said words to that effect.
I wonder if Mccann supporters will think Kate Mccanns comments are a myth too ?
The video confirming
Sky ian woods nterview 25 may
https://youtu.be/GshQL5BNp5M
IW: This is a resort that offers childcare facilities, babysitting facilities. Why then, were the three young children left alone at the apartment while you were having a meal?
GERRY McCANN (GM): I think if you know the location here which you've seen, what we did I think, and we've been assured by the thousands of people who've either done exactly the same or say they would have done the same, and for us, it wasn't very much different to having dinner in your garden, in the proximity of the location. I think it's fair to say that you know the guilt that we feel having not been there at that moment irrespective of whether we had been in our bedroom or not will never leave us.
So it wasn't true when you claimed this in post 47?Eleanor knew she would be bullied, but still very bravely publicly acknowledged what she did.
"It took me some time to admit to this on a Forum, on several occasions, including this one"
The video confirming
Sky ian woods nterview 25 may
https://youtu.be/GshQL5BNp5M
IW: This is a resort that offers childcare facilities, babysitting facilities. Why then, were the three young children left alone at the apartment while you were having a meal?
GERRY McCANN (GM): I think if you know the location here which you've seen, what we did I think, and we've been assured by the thousands of people who've either done exactly the same or say they would have done the same, and for us, it wasn't very much different to having dinner in your garden, in the proximity of the location. I think it's fair to say that you know the guilt that we feel having not been there at that moment irrespective of whether we had been in our bedroom or not will never leave us.
leaving children alone is not common but thousands have certainly done it
Lots of people speed. Never works as a defence.
i never mentioned defence...u answerred the question...they dont need a defence as they were never charged
For people who don't need a defence, they have certainly employed a lot of defenders.
More accurately for people who have done nothing wrong, they haven't half been accused of far too much, and that's why they needed to recourse to those who can defend them.
No doubt there are those who think the thousands of letters of support received by the McCanns are also part of some devious conspiracy.
Too daft for words.
IMO
leaving children alone is not common but thousands have certainly done itThey were like in the back garden to their apartment davel. You should go and see, but I hope you will chose a time when the bushes have been freshly cut back ... as was the case when the Mccanns were there. Greenery grows amazingly quickly on the Algarve and quickly blocks off lines of sight
So we are agreed then.
Gerry Mccann has claimed that many people did the same as the mccanns did, and there is absolutely nothing in the way of verification, as with so many aspects of this case.
Thousands are bloody lucky they got away with it then.
Thousands are bloody lucky they got away with it then.Exactly.
Thousands are bloody lucky they got away with it then.
That Angelo is the nub of it.
Yet some people appear to still think it is OK to do what the Mccanns did.
Thousands are bloody lucky they got away with it then.
There is an alternative to that proposition, which I find more credible....... 8(0(*
Thousands are bloody lucky they got away with it then.
This poor unfortunate woman was like sitting in a pub,like she could in a garden, but... well she got 1 year jail because if the child died or was abducted she would have got longer? Looks like the judiciary are not all that happy about leaving kids while adults in charge go drinking...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3920772/Woman-jailed-year-going-drinking-binge-having-forgotten-d-left-baby-upturned-pram-park.html
This woman was not middle class or a doctor and the child was considered to have been abused by being left alone, at night... now I just knew there was a law against it...
I have reinstated the above post because it is an excellent example of why anti social behaviour and child abandonment should attract a prison sentence. This example has little in common with the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Madeleine.
This sorry woman went on a drinking binge and left a baby in an upturned pram in a park. The little girl was found strapped into her buggy, face down, by a dog walker. She had no coat, shoes or blanket, a dirty nappy and grazes to her face. Gill has now been jailed for a year after court heard the baby could have died.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3920772/Woman-jailed-year-going-drinking-binge-having-forgotten-d-left-baby-upturned-pram-park.html
No relevance to this caseIt does show what sort of extreme neglect will result in a prison sentence. Hardly equivalent to what the Tapas group were doing.
I have reinstated the above post because it is an excellent example of why anti social behaviour and child abandonment should attract a prison sentence. This example has little in common with the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Madeleine.
This sorry woman went on a drinking binge and left a baby in an upturned pram in a park. The little girl was found strapped into her buggy, face down, by a dog walker. She had no coat, shoes or blanket, a dirty nappy and grazes to her face. Gill has now been jailed for a year after court heard the baby could have died.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3920772/Woman-jailed-year-going-drinking-binge-having-forgotten-d-left-baby-upturned-pram-park.html
The only point (of relevance to the McCanns) highlighted.As I said before
So why the post is here, I have no idea.
It does show what sort of extreme neglect will result in a prison sentence. Hardly equivalent to what the Tapas group were doing.
The only point (of relevance to the McCanns) highlighted.
So why the post is here, I have no idea.
I have reinstated the above post because it is an excellent example of why anti social behaviour and child abandonment should attract a prison sentence. This example has little in common with the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Madeleine.
This sorry woman went on a drinking binge and left a baby in an upturned pram in a park. The little girl was found strapped into her buggy, face down, by a dog walker. She had no coat, shoes or blanket, a dirty nappy and grazes to her face. Gill has now been jailed for a year after court heard the baby could have died.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3920772/Woman-jailed-year-going-drinking-binge-having-forgotten-d-left-baby-upturned-pram-park.html
MTI youre wrong as history shows the working class are penalised, the middle classes let off
Not many cases of middle class people being sent to prison or given suspended sentences...hundreds for working class
As I said before
Since you mention it twice, I feel compelled to point out the differences:Was the mistake leaving the door unlocked? Does everyone lock their doors every night?
One woman was jailed for 'abuse' as was the claim against her for leaving a child unattended all night while she went for a drink. The child was exposed to danger as I have mentioned before.
The tapas planned a holiday in which they would leave their children unattended- exposed to danger every night, even after their daughter challenged them about being left alone with two other babies, the Parents left them alone again. One child has never been seen since- the child who challenged the parents...OMG they were given a red carpet, money, fame, they had PR to take care of the not so nice bits of the story, and here we are today years later and still people look upon them as victims. I am thinking about what happened to Little Maddie, who cares less about her parents reputations!
Was the mistake leaving the door unlocked? Does everyone lock their doors every night?
Was the mistake leaving the door unlocked? Does everyone lock their doors every night?
Are you joking!?I'd hate to say what we used to do. The kids survived and no longer a problem.
Do you leave your doors open every night regardless of your circumstances?
Would you still leave them open
with babies indoors
whilst you left the house?
And jog off to somewhere where you had no idea what was happening because you couldnt hear or see but just hope they were doing ok? And just go every half hour allegedly to check but not really check cos you just listened at the door.....And would you tell total strangers you left them there all alone? Insane
Wheres the child protection here?
I'd hate to say what we used to do. The kids survived and no longer a problem.
but what were the circumstancesWell it wasn't a holiday in Portugal.
Was the mistake leaving the door unlocked? Does everyone lock their doors every night?
Well it wasn't a holiday in Portugal.
Was the mistake leaving the door unlocked? Does everyone lock their doors every night?
Only if they don't want to invalidate their insurance policies.
My company allows me to leave my doors unlocked and the alarm off provided I installed the razor wire and flame throwers exactly as shown on the drawings. I bunged in a couple of Bofors for good measure.
I suppise if you were in some outback with no people around it may be different to a populated holiday resort and house on main road, unlocked, where any tom dick or harry could enter and where parents tokd every tm dick and harry they keft the kids alone...utterly bonkersWho were the strangers?
Would YOU tell strangers youd left youre kids alone?
Are the Ins. Co. OK with young children being in charge of the Bofors?
Since you mention it twice, I feel compelled to point out the differences:
One woman was jailed for 'abuse' as was the claim against her for leaving a child unattended all night while she went for a drink. The child was exposed to danger as I have mentioned before.
The tapas planned a holiday in which they would leave their children unattended- exposed to danger every night, even after their daughter challenged them about being left alone with two other babies, the Parents left them alone again. One child has never been seen since- the child who challenged the parents...OMG they were given a red carpet, money, fame, they had PR to take care of the not so nice bits of the story, and her we are today years later and still people look upon them as victims. I am thinking about what hapened to Little Maddie, who cares this is about her parents reputations!
I don't think an intruder would have entered via the patio either, for a start there were two gates.
Wow, two gates! That'll keep 'em out. The T7 had trouble working it all out, too;
we could never really work out why the shutters were up and the window was open.... if they'd come in the patio door, why would they have gone out the window, I'm sure that they could have just gone back out that way, or they could have even just gone out the front door, erm which would have been much easier.....so one of the, our theories for why the window and the shutters were open, were that you know, they came in that way and then but that would mean obviously that the window would have had to have been unlocked, you know either all week, or sometime during the day you know, thats kind of a bit of a risky thing to do because actually you know, if, if they had been checked before the children went to bed and you know Gerry and Kate had found the window unlocked, then they would have locked it and then that would have kind of scuppered anyones plans for coming in that way'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Why would someone want to go and open two gates, unless of course the man Mrs. Fenn's niece saw was testing the gate to see if it made a noise when closing.
I don't believe the intruder got in via the window I think the person had a key and the window was opened for escape purposes should someone come into the room. IMO
Who were the strangers?restaraunt staff, fellow diners, fellow tennis players, and a couple others iirc