UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on April 07, 2017, 12:34:26 AM
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Dr Vanezis refers to traces found:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=698
The lab refers to 15 nanograms per millilitre of blood:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750
To my mind this information suggests such small quantities that it was irrelevant to SC's wellbeing.
I might be way off the mark here in terms of relating the drink driving limit to haloperidol but based on the drink driving limits of 80 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood and converting the labs figures above to the drink driving limits:
0.0015 milligrammes of haloperidol per 100 millilitires of blood = level of haloperidol found in SC's blood. Hence Dr Vanezis referred to a trace.
80 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood = max drink and drive limit
This isn't an aspect of the case I have paid much attention to but where does all this stuff come from re SC being oversedated and suffering from Parkinson like symptons?
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Glynis Howard measured 15 nanograms of Haloperidol per millilitre of blood. In other words a MEDIUM dose (13.1 to 24 ng/mL) according to the study article. And that was almost month after her last intramuscular injection.
You can't compare alcohol levels to those of Haloperidol, because they have totally different effects!
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Glynis Howard measured 15 nanograms of Haloperidol per millilitre of blood. In other words a MEDIUM dose (13.1 to 24 ng/mL) according to the study article. And that was almost month after her last intramuscular injection.
You can't compare alcohol levels to those of Haloperidol, because they have totally different effects!
Chemist Alexander Allen also measured 15 nanograms per millilitre of blood. Where are you getting the info from that this equates to a medium dose?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=748
According to Dr Vanezis' interpretation of what he was told by the lab the amount detected was little more than a trace.
I was just comparing the minute levels of haloperidol found per 100 millilitre with the alcohol limit for drink driving to test Dr Vanezis' claims of a trace.
It seems to me all that was detected in SC's system was a mere trace.
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Chemist Alexander Allen also measured 15 nanograms per millilitre of blood. Where are you getting the info from that this equates to a medium dose?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=748 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=748)
According to Dr Vanezis' interpretation of what he was told by the lab the amount detected was little more than a trace.
I was just comparing the minute levels of haloperidol found per 100 millilitre with the alcohol limit for drink driving to test Dr Vanezis' claims of a trace.
It seems to me all that was detected in SC's system was a mere trace.
From the study article you posted in the other thread.
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From the study article you posted in the other thread.
Sorry... it was the one Caroline posted, as you've probably discovered already.
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Sorry... it was the one Caroline posted, as you've probably discovered already.
Yes it was an article Caroline posted. I thought it related to Haloperidol and the effects on
plasma levels. But even if it is describing low, medium, high doses of Haloeridol measured by Nanogram of Haloperidol detected per millilitre of blood, the amount detected in SC's blood only just put her into the medium dose range. Where does all the info come from re SC being oversedated and suffering Parkinson like symptoms?
Haloperidol detected in SC's blood - 15 nanograms of Haloperidol per millilitre of blood.
Low dose = 2 - 13 nanograms of Haloperidol per 1 millilitre of blood
Med dose = 13.1 - 24 nanograms of Haloperidol per 1 millilitre of blood
High dose = 24.1 - 35 nanograms of Haloperidol per 1 millilitre of blood
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Yes it was an article Caroline posted. I thought it related to Haloperidol and the effects on
plasma levels. But even if it is describing low, medium, high doses of Haloeridol measured by Nanogram of Haloperidol detected per millilitre of blood, the amount detected in SC's blood only just put her into the medium dose range. Where does all the info come from re SC being oversedated and suffering Parkinson like symptoms?
Haloperidol detected in SC's blood - 15 nanograms of Haloperidol per millilitre of blood.
Low dose = 2 - 13 nanograms of Haloperidol per 1 millilitre of blood
Med dose = 13.1 - 24 nanograms of Haloperidol per 1 millilitre of blood
High dose = 24.1 - 35 nanograms of Haloperidol per 1 millilitre of blood
Armchair doctors?
I'm off here shortly for most of today... power cut for maintenance. See ya!
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Haloperidol is a very powerful drug. It has up to 100 side effects. Most of which would stop Sheila from committing the massacre.
Sheila being on Haloperidol means she could not have committed something so violent, physical, intense, lenghty & complicated. However she was easy for Bamber to control.
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Haloperidol is a very powerful drug. It has up to 100 side effects. Most of which would stop Sheila from committing the massacre.
Sheila being on Haloperidol means she could not have committed something so violent, physical, intense, lenghty & complicated. However she was easy for Bamber to control.
If Haloperidol prevented SC from being responsible and made it easy for JB to manipulate her have you any ideas why the prosecution didn't beat the drum about this at trial?
Please provide a source from a medical expert confirming any side-effects suffered by SC.
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If Haloperidol prevented SC from being responsible and made it easy for JB to manipulate her have you any ideas why the prosecution didn't beat the drum about this at trial?
Please provide a source from a medical expert confirming any side-effects suffered by SC.
Her doctor said that her reported symptoms were in line with being over sedated.
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Her doctor said that her reported symptoms were in line with being over sedated.
Is there anything from SC's GP in this regard? He was the last medically qualified person to meet with her.
On 9th Aug Dr Ferguson referred to the side-effects as "slightly sedating" and "slight muscle stiffening".
Any idea of the date of her last injection? She was having fortnightly injections and it was talked about halving the dose by injecting the same amount monthly?
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Is there anything from SC's GP in this regard? He was the last medically qualified person to meet with her.
On 9th Aug Dr Ferguson referred to the side-effects as "slightly sedating" and "slight muscle stiffening".
Any idea of the date of her last injection? She was having fortnightly injections and it was talked about halving the dose by injecting the same amount monthly?
My God! If she was said to be over sedated on monthly injections of 100mg, I can't begin to imagine what sort of state she'd have been in when she was getting fortnightly injections of 200mg.
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Her doctor said that her reported symptoms were in line with being over sedated.
Ok I can now see the WS you have attached above is dated 18th Sept. Dr Ferguson talks of correspondence from Dr Angeloglou dated 15th July asking for SC's dose to be reduced as she felt she was receiving too high a dose. He also talks about a description he received about SC's last weeks of life that she was becoming over sedated and yet he doesn't mention this in his WS of 9th Aug. This makes me think the description was not from SC's GP, Dr Angeloglou, but fed to him by EP based on the views of lay witnesses.
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Ok I can now see the WS you have attached above is dated 18th Sept. Dr Ferguson talks of correspondence from Dr Angeloglou dated 15th July asking for SC's dose to be reduced as she felt she was receiving too high a dose. He also talks about a description he received about SC's last weeks of life that she was becoming over sedated and yet he doesn't mention this in his WS of 9th Aug. This makes me think the description was not from SC's GP, Dr Angeloglou, but fed to him by EP based on the views of lay witnesses.
Dr Wilkinson, locum to Dr Angeloglou, saw Sheila once on July 11th?. She injected her with 100mg of Haloperidol -HALF her usual dose- and understood that, according to her records, Sheila had been receiving monthly injections.
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My God! If she was said to be over sedated on monthly injections of 100mg, I can't begin to imagine what sort of state she'd have been in when she was getting fortnightly injections of 200mg.
The point is the amount detected in SC's blood at time of death was within the low end of the moderate range in terms of dosage 15ng/1ml.
Do you know the date SC received her last injection. I don't know much about this. Did she have to attend a clinic or was she able to self-administer?
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Is there anything from SC's GP in this regard? He was the last medically qualified person to meet with her.
On 9th Aug Dr Ferguson referred to the side-effects as "slightly sedating" and "slight muscle stiffening".
Any idea of the date of her last injection? She was having fortnightly injections and it was talked about halving the dose by injecting the same amount monthly?
Dr Wilkinson, locum to Dr Angeloglou, saw Sheila once on July 11th?. She injected her with 100mg of Haloperidol -HALF her usual dose- and understood that, according to her records, Sheila had been receiving monthly injections.
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The point is the amount detected in SC's blood at time of death was within the low end of the moderate range in terms of dosage 15ng/1ml.
Do you know the date SC received her last injection. I don't know much about this. Did she have to attend a clinic or was she able to self-administer?
Yeah. It was July 11th. Dr Angeloglou injected her at the surgery. I didn't know anything about fortnightly injection until today but I can't find anything to substantiate it.
CORRECTION. It was Dr Wilkinson who administered the injection and further to that wrote to Dr Ferguson regarding the dosage. I think there may have been problems with a cross over of letters.
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The emphasis seems to be on the dosage as opposed to the amounts detected in SC's liver and blood. Surely this is more important as it relates to how the individual metabolises it?
Was Dr Ferguson, psychiatrist, best placed to advise the court at trial on SC/Haloperidol? Saying "You would have thought that Sheila would still have had the benefit of it as well as the effects" doesn't fill me with confidence. Seems to me he doesn't have a clue!
I would have expected a half decent defence to get a report from the manufacturers with all the facts and figures and maybe call an expert from the manufactuers eg a chemist.
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Yeah. It was July 11th. Dr Angeloglou injected her at the surgery. I didn't know anything about fortnightly injection until today but I can't find anything to substantiate it.
CORRECTION. It was Dr Wilkinson who administered the injection and further to that wrote to Dr Ferguson regarding the dosage. I think there may have been problems with a cross over of letters.
Not sure how the injection worked. I assume it was slow release so that at any given point in the month the same level of haloperidol was in SC's system? If not then she sustained a big hit on day 1 and towards the end of the month very little left in her system which surely can't be right? 7th Aug was day 27 of the injection so she was due another imminently? I haven't seen any mention of an appointment already made? What constituted monthly? 11th of the month, every 28 days or what?
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Not sure how the injection worked. I assume it was slow release so that at any given point in the month the same level of haloperidol was in SC's system? If not then she sustained a big hit on day 1 and towards the end of the month very little left in her system which surely can't be right? 7th Aug was day 27 of the injection so she was due another imminently? I haven't seen any mention of an appointment already made? What constituted monthly? 11th of the month, every 28 days or what?
I'm sure you're right. Several million women could find themselves with a problem if the contraceptive jab gave a "big hit" during the first week and tailed off in the last week before the next one was due!!!! Not certain about what constitutes a month. Sure I read somewhere that it was a 6 week interval. Leaving that aside, I'd worked out her next one was due within a few days of her return to London.
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I'm sure you're right. Several million women could find themselves with a problem if the contraceptive jab gave a "big hit" during the first week and tailed off in the last week before the next one was due!!!! Not certain about what constitutes a month. Sure I read somewhere that it was a 6 week interval. Leaving that aside, I'd worked out her next one was due within a few days of her return to London.
It seems the body absorbs it over a period of time.
If SC received an injection on 2nd May and her last on 11th July the difference between these 2 periods is 10 weeks/70 days so it doesn't seem to fit with anything monthly.
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It seems the body absorbs it over a period of time.
If SC received an injection on 2nd May and her last on 11th July the difference between these 2 periods is 10 weeks/70 days so it doesn't seem to fit with anything monthly.
Well the reason for injecting was that Sheila forgot/refused to take oral meds. Maybe she forgot to go to her doctor for her injection. To give her the benefit of doubt, Christine was in England, so possibly Sheila's time was taken up with her?
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It seems the body absorbs it over a period of time.
If SC received an injection on 2nd May and her last on 11th July the difference between these 2 periods is 10 weeks/70 days so it doesn't seem to fit with anything monthly.
Sheila was first prescribed haloperidol in March (can't find the exact date), this was while she was in hospital. It's not clear if she took the drug in tablet form at this point or injections but I suspect she received her first injection prior to being discharged. He GP then gave her another injection on 2nd of May (200mg), then another on 11th June (200mg) and finally on 11th July (100mg).
One thing I have noticed is that Ferguson stated that the GP wrote to him on 15th July to ask for the dose to be reduced BUT she had already done this prior making the request. Although Ferguson agreed that she was over sedated.
The crux is that Sheila had no interruption to her anti-psych meds and still had moderate levels in her system and still showed signs of over sedation.
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Sheila was first prescribed haloperidol in March (can't find the exact date), this was while she was in hospital. It's not clear if she took the drug in tablet form at this point or injections but I suspect she received her first injection prior to being discharged. He GP then gave her another injection on 2nd of May (200mg), then another on 11th June (200mg) and finally on 11th July (100mg).
One thing I have noticed is that Ferguson stated that the GP wrote to him on 15th July to ask for the dose to be reduced BUT she had already done this prior making the request. Although Ferguson agreed that she was over sedated.
The crux is that Sheila had no interruption to her anti-psych meds and still had moderate levels in her system and still showed signs of over sedation.
Top Tip 4 Grand National: One For Arthur. I'll be right on this in the same way I'm right on WHF ?>)()<
Yes I wasn't suggesting SC missed an injection between May and Jul just that it obviously didn't fit neatly into a monthly cycle. Where did you find the info re 11th June?
Well we know at TOD the amount of Haloperidol detected in SC's blood was 15ng/1ml meaning she was in the lower end of the moderate dose.
Myster posted the following, from CAL I believe:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8084.msg395532#msg395532
SC was prescribed other drugs:
- Procyclidene - counters problems with muscles and joints movement.
- Nortec - nocturnal sedative
- Triludan - anti-histamine
Toxicology tests only detected Haloperidol and cannabis:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750
What to make of this? The reduced dosage alleviated any muscle/joint and sleeping issues?
No idea whether Tridulan was related to Haloperidol. I have read Haloperidol can cause skin irritation. I recall using Tridulan in the 80's for prickly heat caused by the sun. I think it was also used for hay fever.
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Top Tip 4 Grand National: One For Arthur. I'll be right on this in the same way I'm right on WHF ?>)()<
Yes I wasn't suggesting SC missed an injection between May and Jul just that it obviously didn't fit neatly into a monthly cycle. Where did you find the info re 11th June?
Well we know at TOD the amount of Haloperidol detected in SC's blood was 15ng/1ml meaning she was in the lower end of the moderate dose.
Myster posted the following, from CAL I believe:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8084.msg395532#msg395532
SC was prescribed other drugs:
- Procyclidene - counters problems with muscles and joints movement.
- Nortec - nocturnal sedative
- Triludan - anti-histamine
Toxicology tests only detected Haloperidol and cannabis:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750
What to make of this? The reduced dosage alleviated any muscle/joint and sleeping issues?
No idea whether Tridulan was related to Haloperidol. I have read Haloperidol can cause skin irritation. I recall using Tridulan in the 80's for prickly heat caused by the sun. I think it was also used for hay fever.
Well done you, Holl! One of our pugs is called Arthur, so we cleaned up a bit, too!
I hope you're using your winnings for your reconstruction. Don't forget that Nevill was in bed at some stage, but might have got up (for many reasons, at his age) and was in a different part of the house when Bamber burst into the bedroom and shot June. So, maybe it was Bamber who shot Nevill on the stairs, and not Sheila.
That does actually work.
8((()*/
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Well done you, Holl! One of our pugs is called Arthur, so we cleaned up a bit, too!
I hope you're using your winnings for your reconstruction. Don't forget that Nevill was in bed at some stage, but might have got up (for many reasons, at his age) and was in a different part of the house when Bamber burst into the bedroom and shot June. So, maybe it was Bamber who shot Nevill on the stairs, and not Sheila.
That does actually work.
8((()*/
Tip from farmer friend who is into racing. Nice win 8((()*/
You're right there is a counter argument which I've posted about in the past: JB enters twins rooms and shoots them a total of 8 x's. Reloads in their bedroom from ammo on his person. Meanwhile NB wakes upon hearing a noise and leaves the bedroom to investigate. JB enters the main bedroom via the box room. Finding NB absent he shoots June x 5/6 (6 possible graze only GSW). NB then returns to the direction of the main bedroom and meets JB on the stairs ie JB is standing at entrance of main bedroom and shoots NB on the landing stairs in the lip and jaw. NB turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest GSW from behind whilst on the main stairs with JB behind.
I guess there are various themes on the above scenario but there's certainly a counter argument for the locations. IMO NB was definitely shot on the landing stairs x 2 facing into the master bedroom and x 2 on the main stairs facing down towards the hall but these locations still provide arguments for either JB or SC.
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If Haloperidol prevented SC from being responsible and made it easy for JB to manipulate her have you any ideas why the prosecution didn't beat the drum about this at trial?
Please provide a source from a medical expert confirming any side-effects suffered by SC.
The whole prosecution argument was that Sheila could not have committed the massacre & that Bamber could control her.
My 'Effects of Haloperidol' thread on the blue forum show all the side effects. In Youtube videos & internet articles.
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The whole prosecution argument was that Sheila could not have committed the massacre & that Bamber could control her.
My 'Effects of Haloperidol' thread on the blue forum show all the side effects. In Youtube videos & internet articles.
The CoA doc sets out the areas of evidence the prosecution relied upon at trial and there's no mention of Haloperidol and/or JB controlling SC. The reason being is that to advance this the prosecution would need expert evidence and there wasn't and isn't any.
151. The prosecution relied upon the following areas of evidence:
i) The appellant's expressed dislike of his family;
ii) His speaking of his plans to kill his family and thereafter his confessions to his girlfriend, Julie Mugford;
iii) The finding of his mother's bicycle at Goldhanger;
iv) The appellant's admitted ability to effect covert entry into and exit from the farmhouse and the finding of the hacksaw blade outside the bathroom window. His claim to have entered the house in that way after the first arrest was an attempt to explain these findings;
v) Because on the facts of the case it could only have been the appellant or Sheila Caffell who carried out the killings, the factors below proved they were not the responsibility of the appellant's sister:
a) Although seriously mentally ill, there had been no indication of any deterioration in her mental health in the days before the killings. Neither had she expressed any recent suicidal thoughts and the expert evidence was that she would not have harmed her children or her father;
b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;
c) She would not have been able physically to have overcome her father (who was fit, strong and 6' 4" tall) during the struggle which undoubtedly took place before his death in the kitchen;
d) Her hands and feet were clean. They were not blood stained and neither was there any sugar upon them;
e) Hand swabs from her body did not reveal the levels of lead to be expected in somebody who must have re-loaded the magazine of the gun on at least two occasions; and
f) Her clothing was relatively clean and she was not injured in the way that might be expected of somebody involved in a struggle. Her long fingernails were still intact and undamaged.
vi) The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself. The following aspects of the evidence established it was still in place on the gun when the appellant's sister was murdered:
a) The blood grouping analysis proved (on the particular facts of the case) that Sheila Caffell's blood was inside the moderator; and
b) Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room.
vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:
a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;
b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;
c) As a matter of common sense, Nevill Bamber would have called the police before the appellant;
d) Had the appellant really received such a call, he would have immediately made a 999 call, alerted the farm workers who lived close to the farmhouse and then driven at speed to his parents home; and
e) Instead he had spoken to Julie Mugford before calling the police. When he subsequently contacted the Police, it was not by way of the emergency system.
viii) He stood to inherit considerable sums of money.
With respect Adam your thread and general info re side effects of Haloperidol don't carry any weight. You need expert evidence showing SC suffered from this that or the other at time of death and there isn't any.
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With respect Adam your thread and general info re side effects of Haloperidol don't carry any weight. You need expert evidence showing SC suffered from this that or the other at time of death and there isn't any.
There is evidence from her doctor and psychiatrist and the fact that the meds were reduced because of side effects.
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There is evidence from her doctor and psychiatrist and the fact that the meds were reduced because of side effects.
Yes and when SC was receiving the higher dose (200mg) she was also prescribed other drugs to counter the effects. These other drugs were not detected in toxicology tests. You have stated SC received her last injection (100mg) on 11th June. Therefore the higher dose was out of her system by TOD and any side-effects diminished.
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Yes and when SC was receiving the higher dose (200mg) she was also prescribed other drugs to counter the effects. These other drugs were not detected in toxicology tests. You have stated SC received her last injection (100mg) on 11th June. Therefore the higher dose was out of her system by TOD and any side-effects diminished.
If Sheila had stopped taking the drug, it would take around six weeks for it to leave her system so, no, the higher level wouldn't have left her system and as she had the 200mg injections for several months previous, it would have taken longer than 4 weeks for the dosage to level out. The side affects were still noticed by many people - I'm not sure why people are just ignoring this?
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If Sheila had stopped taking the drug, it would take around six weeks for it to leave her system so, no, the higher level wouldn't have left her system and as she had the 200mg injections for several months previous, it would have taken longer than 4 weeks for the dosage to level out. The side affects were still noticed by many people - I'm not sure why people are just ignoring this?
15ng of Haloperidol was detected in 1 ml of SC's blood as per toxicology reports. The article you produced showed this was in the low end of the moderate range.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/495707
You said SC last received a 200 mg dose on 11th June. This was some 8 weeks prior to tragedy.
I'm not sure what side-effects you are referring to and who the people were who noticed them?
The above doesn't appear to have formed part of the prosecution/defence case at trial?
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15ng of Haloperidol was detected in 1 ml of SC's blood as per toxicology reports. The article you produced showed this was in the low end of the moderate range.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/495707
You said SC last received a 200 mg dose on 11th June. This was some 8 weeks prior to tragedy.
I'm not sure what side-effects you are referring to and who the people were who noticed them?
The above doesn't appear to have formed part of the prosecution/defence case at trial?
CAL makes mention of those who noticed her extreme lethargy during her last fortnight. She is said to have become unkempt -hair lank, make-up awry, laddered/holed tights- and her stiff/rigid gait was remarked on. At the party, allegedly one of the boys tried to get on her lap and she was totally unresponsive. We know she asked to go home early and Jeremy and Julie took her. Nothing much has been said of anything which occurred during that journey. If she'd sat and said nothing, it could have been used to back up her "strangeness" as a precursor to the murders. It makes me wonder if there was a conversation we don't know about?
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CAL makes mention of those who noticed her extreme lethargy during her last fortnight. She is said to have become unkempt -hair lank, make-up awry, laddered/holed tights- and her stiff/rigid gait was remarked on. At the party, allegedly one of the boys tried to get on her lap and she was totally unresponsive. We know she asked to go home early and Jeremy and Julie took her. Nothing much has been said of anything which occurred during that journey. If she'd sat and said nothing, it could have been used to back up her "strangeness" as a precursor to the murders. It makes me wonder if there was a conversation we don't know about?
Afaik none of the above featured at trial? For every 'SC was a mess/looked a mess comment' mentally and physically there are comments from others saying she appeared 'normal' eg at the Sat BBQ where she was helping to prepare and serve food and was said to look attractive. Taken from the CoA doc based on witness testimony provided to the court:
22. The Bamber's housekeeper/cleaner saw Sheila Caffell several times during the course of Monday, 5 August. She saw nothing unusual in Sheila's behaviour. The next day, Sheila was seen with her children on several occasions by Julie and Leonard Foakes, who were working on the farm. She appeared happy and all was apparently well.
CC said SC didn't say a word en route from London to WHF. Usually parents are kept busy on car journeys lasting more than 10 mins trying to keep 6 year old children entertained.
I don't see that any of this is evidence of anything? You seem to be saying SC was a mess and therefore incapable of being responsible? Whereas the court seem to be saying SC wasn't a mess and therefore incapable of being responsible. I think maybe you're missing Lookout and looking for a new playmate 8(0(* 8)-)))
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Afaik none of the above featured at trial? For every 'SC was a mess/looked a mess comment' mentally and physically there are comments from others saying she appeared 'normal' eg at the Sat BBQ where she was helping to prepare and serve food and was said to look attractive. Taken from the CoA doc based on witness testimony provided to the court:
22. The Bamber's housekeeper/cleaner saw Sheila Caffell several times during the course of Monday, 5 August. She saw nothing unusual in Sheila's behaviour. The next day, Sheila was seen with her children on several occasions by Julie and Leonard Foakes, who were working on the farm. She appeared happy and all was apparently well.
CC said SC didn't say a word en route from London to WHF. Usually parents are kept busy on car journeys lasting more than 10 mins trying to keep 6 year old children entertained.
I don't see that any of this is evidence of anything? You seem to be saying SC was a mess and therefore incapable of being responsible? Whereas the court seem to be saying SC wasn't a mess and therefore incapable of being responsible. I think maybe you're missing Lookout and looking for a new playmate 8(0(* 8)-)))
No, no, no. You misunderstand. It wasn't being a mess which made her "incapable (of being responsible)". It was the lethargy -which led to her looking a mess- which would have rendered her incapable. However, you raise a good point about what was said of her to CAL -I believe one friend actually said she smelled- and what the court said of her. Lookout?
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No, no, no. You misunderstand. It wasn't being a mess which made her "incapable (of being responsible)". It was the lethargy -which led to her looking a mess- which would have rendered her incapable. However, you raise a good point about what was said of her to CAL -I believe one friend actually said she smelled- and what the court said of her. Lookout?
Well SC didn't look a mess in soc photos, did she? DB referred to her state as "not a hair out of place". To my eye her hair looks clean and styled. Finger and toenails manicured and polished. Shaped eyebrows. Hair free legs.
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Well SC didn't look a mess in soc photos, did she? DB referred to her state as "not a hair out of place". To my eye her hair looks clean and styled. Finger and toenails manicured and polished. Shaped eyebrows. Hair free legs.
She certainly looked dead. I can't say that looking dead implies being a mess. DB doesn't strike me as a guy who'd recognize whether -or not- there was "not a hair out of place" but who knows? Possibly a friend had done her nails? She'd only have needed to sit. Shaped eyebrows? Hair-free legs? Nature's gift?
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Well SC didn't look a mess in soc photos, did she? DB referred to her state as "not a hair out of place". To my eye her hair looks clean and styled. Finger and toenails manicured and polished. Shaped eyebrows. Hair free legs.
I guess she couldn't have looked worse, given that she was dead!
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I've recently been flicking through Scott Lomax again. This book is woeful. I realised this first time I read it very quickly but going over it again there are just so many errors.
Page 185:
This is consistent with her having taken Procyclidene in the afternoon and therefore the drowsiness she might have experienced as a result of her very low dosage of Haloperidol would have been counteracted by her very low dosage of Procyclidene.
There's no evidence SC had taken Procyclidene. The pathology report and toxicology reports only mention cannabis and Haloperidol.
It appears the level of Haloperidol in SC's system 15ng/1ml blood falls into the low range of MODERATE.
How can an author write a book and not even check the most basic facts? Surely anyone writing a book about WHF would read very carefully the pathology report?
I have no interest in discussing this further just wanted to highlight what a complete numpty this guy is.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=698
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750
SC had been prescribed Procyclidene but no trace of such was found in her biological samples at TOD.
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I've recently been flicking through Scott Lomax again. This book is woeful. I realised this first time I read it very quickly but going over it again there are just so many errors.
Page 185:
This is consistent with her having taken Procyclidene in the afternoon and therefore the drowsiness she might have experienced as a result of her very low dosage of Haloperidol would have been counteracted by her very low dosage of Procyclidene.
There's no evidence SC had taken Procyclidene. The pathology report and toxicology reports only mention cannabis and Haloperidol.
It appears the level of Haloperidol in SC's system 15ng/1ml blood falls into the low range of MODERATE.
How can an author write a book and not even check the most basic facts? Surely anyone writing a book about WHF would read very carefully the pathology report?
I have no interest in discussing this further just wanted to highlight what a complete numpty this guy is.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=698 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=698)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750)
SC had been prescribed Procyclidene but no trace of such was found in her biological samples at TOD.
Dr Angeloglou had a suspicion that Sheila wasn't taking her procyclidene as prescribed, hence the reason for her rigid gait, fumbling with beans on toast and pouring tea, resulting from the side effects of haloperidol, which procyclidene is meant to suppress. And probably why none was found in her system.
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Dr Angeloglou had a suspicion that Sheila wasn't taking her procyclidene as prescribed, hence the reason for her rigid gait, fumbling with beans on toast and pouring tea, resulting from the side effects of haloperidol, which procyclidene is meant to suppress. And probably why none was found in her system.
Do you have the expert evidence from Dr Angeloglu to this effect?
I haven't seen any expert evidence re rigid gait, fumbling with beans on toast and pouring tea. This all seems to come from lay witnesses such as AE who it seems saw so little of SC she was unable to even tell the fraternal twins apart.
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Do you have the expert evidence from Dr Angeloglu to this effect?
I haven't seen any expert evidence re rigid gait, fumbling with beans on toast and pouring tea. This all seems to come from lay witnesses such as AE who it seems saw so little of SC she was unable to even tell the fraternal twins apart.
Adverse effects of Haloperidol...
As haloperidol is a high-potency typical antipsychotic, it tends to produce significant extrapyramidal side effects (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrapyramidal_side_effects). According to a 2013 meta-analysis of the comparative efficacy and tolerability of 15 antipsychotic drugs it was the most prone of the 15 for causing extrapyramidal side effects.
With more than 6 months of use 14% percent of users gain weight. Common (>1% incidence) - Extrapyramidal side effects including:
- Dystonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystonia) (continuous spasms and muscle contractions)
- Muscle rigidity
- Akathisia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akathisia) (motor restlessness)
- Parkinsonism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinsonism) (characteristic symptoms such as rigidity)
- Hypotension
- Anticholinergic side effects such as: (These adverse effects are more common than with lower-potency typical antipsychotics, such as chlorpromazine and thioridazine.)
- Constipation
- Dry mouth
- Blurred vision
- Somnolence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somnolence) (which is not a particularly prominent side effect, as is supported by the results of the aforementioned meta-analysis.
Procyclidene is prescribed to counteract the above side effects which are caused by haloperidol... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procyclidine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procyclidine)
Dr Angeloglou suspected that Sheila wasn't taking her procyclidene, so perhaps this could be the reason for haloperidol's side effects becoming dominant... muscle rigidity, Akathisia, Parkinsonism, and somnolence; eg. Sheila walking stiffly through a gaggle of geese, her clumsiness with food preparation, and her drowsiness...
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Adverse effects of Haloperidol...
As haloperidol is a high-potency typical antipsychotic, it tends to produce significant extrapyramidal side effects (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrapyramidal_side_effects). According to a 2013 meta-analysis of the comparative efficacy and tolerability of 15 antipsychotic drugs it was the most prone of the 15 for causing extrapyramidal side effects.
With more than 6 months of use 14% percent of users gain weight. Common (>1% incidence) - Extrapyramidal side effects including:
- Dystonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystonia) (continuous spasms and muscle contractions)
- Muscle rigidity
- Akathisia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akathisia) (motor restlessness)
- Parkinsonism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinsonism) (characteristic symptoms such as rigidity)
- Hypotension
- Anticholinergic side effects such as: (These adverse effects are more common than with lower-potency typical antipsychotics, such as chlorpromazine and thioridazine.)
- Constipation
- Dry mouth
- Blurred vision
- Somnolence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somnolence) (which is not a particularly prominent side effect, as is supported by the results of the aforementioned meta-analysis.
Procyclidene is prescribed to counteract the above side effects which are caused by haloperidol... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procyclidine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procyclidine)
Dr Angeloglou suspected that Sheila wasn't taking her procyclidene, so perhaps this could be the reason for haloperidol's side effects becoming dominant... muscle rigidity, Akathisia, Parkinsonism, and somnolence; eg. Sheila walking stiffly through a gaggle of geese, her clumsiness with food preparation, and her drowsiness...
But is there any expert evidence that SC suffered any of these side effects? I've only seen the info you posted above about feeling sleepy and "flattened" elsewhere but this, I think, relates to when she was being prescribed 200mg dose. I'm taking anti-inflammatory tablets at the moment, Naproxen, for what is believed to be a rotator cuff injury probably from working out with weights. The instruction leaflet contains all manner of possible side effects but so far I've noticed nothing and don't expect to. It's just the pharma companies covering themselves.
The Foakes and Jean Boutell had known SC from childhood and observed her shortly before the murders all said she seemed 'normal'. If SC had all these problems with motor control then I'm at a loss to explain her appearance in terms of shaped eyebrows, manicured and polished nails, hair free legs. She didn't have the means to pay for these services and no friend has ever come forward to to say they helped out.
AE saying SC couldn't put beans on toast and yet AE saw so little of SC she was unable to tell the fraternal twins apart.
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But is there any expert evidence that SC suffered any of these side effects? I've only seen the info you posted above about feeling sleepy and "flattened" elsewhere but this, I think, relates to when she was being prescribed 200mg dose. I'm taking anti-inflammatory tablets at the moment, Naproxen, for what is believed to be a rotator cuff injury probably from working out with weights. The instruction leaflet contains all manner of possible side effects but so far I've noticed nothing and don't expect to. It's just the pharma companies covering themselves.
The Foakes and Jean Boutell had known SC from childhood and observed her shortly before the murders all said she seemed 'normal'. If SC had all these problems with motor control then I'm at a loss to explain her appearance in terms of shaped eyebrows, manicured and polished nails, hair free legs. She didn't have the means to pay for these services and no friend has ever come forward to to say they helped out.
AE saying SC couldn't put beans on toast and yet AE saw so little of SC she was unable to tell the fraternal twins apart.
I once took part in a drugs trial. I didn't know whether I was taking the a drug or a placebo. I was encouraged to keep a diary and was told that should it occur, during the trial, that I developed purple spots with green centres, I must record this and it would then be included as a possible side effect!!!
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I once took part in a drugs trial. I didn't know whether I was taking the a drug or a placebo. I was encouraged to keep a diary and was told that should it occur, during the trial, that I developed purple spots with green centres, I must record this and it would then be included as a possible side effect!!!
... and that's how you became a one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people-eater? @)(++(* 8()-000(
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Haloperidol can send people into a murderous frenzy.
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Haloperidol can send people into a murderous frenzy.
Oh for gods sake, how much longer are you going to preddle this rubbish? @)(++(*
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Plenty of evidence that Haloperidol can make you both homicidal and suicidal.
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Plenty of evidence that Haloperidol can make you both homicidal and suicidal.
Rubbish