Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on May 17, 2017, 09:24:47 AM
Title: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 17, 2017, 09:24:47 AM
There is this video of a man lifting the shutters from the outside. Did you know it was possible to do this?
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: John on May 17, 2017, 10:35:51 AM
There is this video of a man lifting the shutters from the outside. Did you know it was possible to do this?
We have several threads on this subject easily found by searching "shutter" as a topic item but as they haven't been posted on for a while it will do no harm to refresh our thoughts with a new thread.
These shutters can be quite easily lifted from outside if A) there are no locking snibs fitted and B) locking snibs are fitted but aren't engaged. I think we previously established that the bog standard shutters fitted at Ocean Club did not have such a locking mechanism.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: jassi on May 17, 2017, 10:38:11 AM
From the video, they obviously won't go all the way up and won't stay up of their own accord
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: John on May 17, 2017, 10:42:26 AM
From the video, they obviously won't go all the way up and won't stay up of their own accord
That's right, the window has to be slid open in order for someone to reach in and pull the shutter strap and wind up the mechanism as demonstrated here by Heriberto.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2017, 10:50:43 AM
The crime scene showed the shutters stuck after Dianne Webster tried to raise and twisted them.
That's right, the window has to be slid open in order for someone to reach in and pull the shutter strap and wind up the mechanism as demonstrated here by Heriberto.
I noticed this was shown on the Panorama programme. However, Heri's demonstration can only be done if the window is unlocked, to be able to slide it open to reach the winding mechanism. Do these windows have locks on the inside? Please ,please don't tell me the windows were not locked! Leaving three children alone in an apartment with unlocked windows on ground floor...I am too scared to think about that.
Also Why did panorama not check Dianes statement?
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: jassi on May 21, 2017, 11:30:50 AM
I noticed this was shown on the Panorama programme. However, Heri's demonstration can only be done if the window is unlocked, to be able to slide it open to reach the winding mechanism. Do these windows have locks on the inside? Please ,please don't tell me the windows were not locked! Leaving three children alone in an apartment with unlocked windows on ground floor...I am too scared to think about that.
Also Why did panorama not check Dianes statement?
They do indeed have locks on the inside.
They left the back door unlocked, weren't sure about the front door, nor the windows.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Carana on May 21, 2017, 12:18:53 PM
I noticed this was shown on the Panorama programme. However, Heri's demonstration can only be done if the window is unlocked, to be able to slide it open to reach the winding mechanism. Do these windows have locks on the inside? Please ,please don't tell me the windows were not locked! Leaving three children alone in an apartment with unlocked windows on ground floor...I am too scared to think about that.
Also Why did panorama not check Dianes statement?
I think we established all this in an earlier thread, John.
That Brits did not understand shutters of this type and assumed that they were incapable of being opened from outside
It also seems that Kate and Gerry were not alone in not checking whether the windows were locked or not
4078 “Therefore you didn’t have any cause to pass by Madeleine’s bedroom window and you didn’t therefore notice the shutters. During your stay in your apartment where you, Fiona and Dave were, did you ever leave the doors or windows open?”
Reply “Err no but err after Madeleine disappeared I, I checked the err some of the windows in our apartment and they weren’t locked, we hadn’t, we hadn’t thought of checking them you know, when we arrived in the resort to check the windows and the cleaners must have left them unlocked.”
I have been lucky enough to have travelled widely, staying at all sorts of hotels and in my experience, when one enters the room for the first time everything is securely locked. Seems the cleaner of thes particular flats at OC was lax ... or maybe she hadn't been trained properly.
One expects everything to be clean and everything secure when one starts holiday and takes over their accomodation for the first time.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2017, 12:32:32 AM
Does that mean we can propose the same thing happened in the McCann's apartment?
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 22, 2017, 10:28:28 AM
4078 “Therefore you didn’t have any cause to pass by Madeleine’s bedroom window and you didn’t therefore notice the shutters. During your stay in your apartment where you, Fiona and Dave were, did you ever leave the doors or windows open?”
Reply “Err no but err after Madeleine disappeared I, I checked the err some of the windows in our apartment and they weren’t locked, we hadn’t, we hadn’t thought of checking them you know, when we arrived in the resort to check the windows and the cleaners must have left them unlocked.”
I have been lucky enough to have travelled widely, staying at all sorts of hotels and in my experience, when one enters the room for the first time everything is securely locked. Seems the cleaner of thes particular flats at OC was lax ... or maybe she hadn't been trained properly.
One expects everything to be clean and everything secure when one starts holiday and takes over their accomodation for the first time.
OMG they never even bothered to check the windows are not locked at night when they went out and left their children alone!! This just gets worse!
So lets assume the cleaner opened the window, why would she do that? because Kate says the window and shutters were closed all week...
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2017, 10:54:16 AM
But neither of them say they checked the window for security on the Thursday night.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: jassi on May 22, 2017, 11:13:45 AM
Very lax behaviour, wouldn't you agree?
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 22, 2017, 11:19:34 AM
I am just Horrified! It really does beggar belief.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2017, 11:21:43 AM
I think you'd have to put that down to the NZ wine they had before hand.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2017, 10:58:13 PM
Going through Rachel's statement and found this in her rogatory interview.
"1578 'Did you at any point yourself see the shutters up and the window open'' Reply 'Yes'. 1578 'When was that'' Reply 'When, when Fi and Kate were outside, erm you know standing by the shutters, by the window'."
So the list of people having seen the shutters up is growing. Now includes Kate, Gerry, Amy and Rachel. You would wonder why Fiona can't be more definite?
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2017, 05:03:54 AM
The article I reading said this "In his witness statement, Mr McCann told police that workmen had gone into their holiday apartment two days before Madeleine vanished to fix a broken window shutter in the main bedroom." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/1584584/Madeleine-McCann-complained-to-mother-Kate-about-being-left-crying-alone.html
Trying to think whether I had actually read that in the statements. Looking it up on Google I find I'm not the only one "And now for something completely different....
"The reporter also told how Gerry revealed to police in his statement that workmen had come into their holiday flat to fix a broken window shutter in the main bedroom two days before she went missing."
WOW, never heard that before...." http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?61836-Madeleine-McCann-General-Discussion-Thread-No-21/page7&styleid=21
So are there witness statements from Gerry we don't have? Or am I just crap and remembering all the detail.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on September 02, 2019, 10:39:19 AM
I noticed this was shown on the Panorama programme. However, Heri's demonstration can only be done if the window is unlocked, to be able to slide it open to reach the winding mechanism. Do these windows have locks on the inside? Please ,please don't tell me the windows were not locked! Leaving three children alone in an apartment with unlocked windows on ground floor...I am too scared to think about that.
Thanks to Amaral we know the locking automatic mechanism of 5A window was not funtioning properly.
Dianne herself said they twisted and got stuck as she did it. It makes no sense for Kate to get her to try and raise them allegedly after she claims Gerry had done so. Not hard to find the areas to investigate in this case.
4078 “And were you able to?”
Reply “I think, I think I got it up so far but it became sort of err twisted. But everybody was in such a panic really.”
4078 “Did you see that window at the time?”
Reply “No I, my recollection is that err I think the shutter had been let back down again or err I don’t, I don’t recall the window being open at the time I went so whether they’d closed it because obviously it was draughty for the twins but I, I can’t be a hundred percent sure about that.”
To me he is showing us how the window moves in the unlocked position.. I don't actually see Amaral or his adviser activating the window lock. Prior to the bit you show https://youtu.be/hjtbaFZ01bA?t=420 the window is unlocked.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 02, 2019, 12:36:57 PM
Dianne herself said they twisted and got stuck as she did it. It makes no sense for Kate to get her to try and raise them allegedly after she claims Gerry had done so. Not hard to find the areas to investigate in this case.
4078 “And were you able to?”
Reply “I think, I think I got it up so far but it became sort of err twisted. But everybody was in such a panic really.”
4078 “Did you see that window at the time?”
Reply “No I, my recollection is that err I think the shutter had been let back down again or err I don’t, I don’t recall the window being open at the time I went so whether they’d closed it because obviously it was draughty for the twins but I, I can’t be a hundred percent sure about that.”
You wrote: "It makes no sense for Kate to get her to try and raise them" Who said Kate made Dianne do this?
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 02, 2019, 05:14:30 PM
Kate was repeatedly going on about the shutter being raised so Dianne went outside to try and raise them as they were down not up as the McCanns claim. They were the only two adults in the apartment at that time - 5 minutes after the alarm was raised.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 02, 2019, 07:46:18 PM
Kate was repeatedly going on about the shutter being raised so Dianne went outside to try and raise them as they were down not up as the McCanns claim. They were the only two adults in the apartment at that time - 5 minutes after the alarm was raised.
You have made that up. Where was Fiona?
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: jassi on September 02, 2019, 07:48:21 PM
Kate was repeatedly going on about the shutter being raised so Dianne went outside to try and raise them as they were down not up as the McCanns claim. They were the only two adults in the apartment at that time - 5 minutes after the alarm was raised.
When Fiona lifted the shutter as she says she did, she wasn't in the apartment but outside of it.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: jassi on September 02, 2019, 08:03:28 PM
Searching down behind the tennis courts, she said.
OK so is that inside the Tapas area or is that around the outer part of the Tapas area? To get "down behind the tennis courts" which route would she have taken? Would she go down towards the Baptista supermarket first or would she go along the street to the North and East of the apartment first?
I'm asking this for I believe a woman's intuition would be to go the same way she thought Madeleine would have gone. [Didn't dot my "i"s.]
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 02, 2019, 08:32:18 PM
The shutters were down NOT raised when DW arrived around 5 minutes after the alarm.
Going off that photo I wouldn't describe those shutters as "raised", as they have been lowered to a nearly fully closed position. They also don't look twisted or stuck to me.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: G-Unit on September 02, 2019, 08:52:52 PM
OK so is that inside the Tapas area or is that around the outer part of the Tapas area? To get "down behind the tennis courts" which route would she have taken? Would she go down towards the Baptista supermarket first or would she go along the street to the North and East of the apartment first?
I'm asking this for I believe a woman's intuition would be to go the same way she thought Madeleine would have gone. [Didn't dot my "i"s.]
Out of the car park, turn left, then left again and down R. de Malo. Next left is R. Joaquim Teixerra. Next left is into R Dr F G Martins and back up to the apartment at the top of that road. About a five minute walk, as she said.
to the left of the apartments, round the back of the tennis court https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 02, 2019, 09:07:20 PM
Out of the car park, turn left, then left again and down R. de Malo. Next left is R. Joaquim Teixerra. Next left is into R Dr F G Martins and back up to the apartment at the top of that road. About a five minute walk, as she said.
to the left of the apartments, round the back of the tennis court https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
OK got that. Fiona says: "but I, I went round the back of, erm, tut, well this way around the back of the apartments and round the back of the tennis courts on the main road and then cut down in front of the Baptista Supermarket and back up, that was the route I did'."
OK if that is female intuition that only makes sense to me if Fiona thought Madeleine escaped via the front door.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 03, 2019, 01:00:17 PM
Going off that photo I wouldn't describe those shutters as "raised", as they have been lowered to a nearly fully closed position. They also don't look twisted or stuck to me.
If they weren't stuck they would have dropped back down *%87 Dianne stated she got them twisted and stuck and it was then impossible for her to raise them any further i.e. the photo proves it.
p.s. when Fiona came to apartment 5A (she was involved in the first searches and that is the reason she wasn't in the apartment at the time her mother first arrived there and found Kate alone with the twins) that is when her mother Dianne left and went back to the table to retrieve the items.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 03, 2019, 07:13:54 PM
If they weren't stuck they would have dropped back down *%87 Dianne stated she got them twisted and stuck and it was then impossible for her to raise them any further i.e. the photo proves it.
p.s. when Fiona came to apartment 5A (she was involved in the first searches and that is the reason she wasn't in the apartment at the time her mother first arrived there and found Kate alone with the twins) that is when her mother Dianne left and went back to the table to retrieve the items.
"the photo proves it." Of course it doesn't prove anything.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 04, 2019, 01:34:04 AM
The photo proves the shutter is in a stuck position otherwise it would be fully down.They fall freely back down to a fully closed position - that is clearly not shown in the photo!
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 04, 2019, 04:17:03 AM
The photo proves the shutter is in a stuck position otherwise it would be fully down.They fall freely back down to a fully closed position - that is clearly not shown in the photo!
You seem to have forgotten the shutters have a device on the inside that allows the shutters to be left at any desired position. You can't tell if the device is holding the shutter partly up or not.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 04, 2019, 12:48:44 PM
You tie them when fully up not down lol. How could they be tied with the window closed? Too funny. They are in a stuck position as corroborated by Dianne Webster.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: The General on September 04, 2019, 01:02:54 PM
All this conjecture about shutters that nobody corroborated were open at any time.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Brietta on September 04, 2019, 01:23:28 PM
All this conjecture about shutters that nobody corroborated were open at any time.
Amaral accepted that the bedroom window was open as the witness had stated (see his video where he went into it in great detail). What would have been the point of an open window if the shutter was down? With reference to his documentary video again, he neatly side steps any mention of the status of the shutter. I wonder why. Could it be that it is such an obvious point it didn't require to be said?
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 04, 2019, 01:40:08 PM
You tie them when fully up not down lol. How could they be tied with the window closed? Too funny. They are in a stuck position as corroborated by Dianne Webster.
Well what you think is not something I can relate to sorry.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 04, 2019, 01:54:03 PM
All this conjecture about shutters that nobody corroborated were open at any time.
I think you will find Kate ,Gerry, Rachael and Amy Tierney stated the shutters were up. Dianne would not have tested the shutters unless there was a reason to do so.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2019, 02:12:45 PM
I think you will find Kate ,Gerry, Rachael and Amy Tierney stated the shutters were up. Dianne would not have tested the shutters unless there was a reason to do so.
Presumably because she'd been told they had been lifted. Obviously they were in the down position as she found it impossible to lift them more than a few inches without them jamming.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 04, 2019, 02:29:56 PM
Presumably because she'd been told they had been lifted. Obviously they were in the down position as she found it impossible to lift them more than a few inches without them jamming.
So there was a reason.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 04, 2019, 03:02:12 PM
Imo the abductor opened the shutters from inside in an attempt to 'stage' the scene perhaps with the knowledge that Mrs Fenn had been the victim of an attempted robbery the week prior to the McCann's arrival:
When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
She stated they twisted and got stuck as seen in the crime scene photo. What is hard to understand?
In the crime scene photos the shutter is not twisted. (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_13_small1.jpg)
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 05, 2019, 11:30:27 AM
It is in a stuck position. Police took photos of the crime scene - they don't tamper like others. Here's the shutter in the same position with the window closed so it was not tied as you suggested. The witness said it twisted and that would be reason for it to have stuck and also the reason Dianne could not raise it no further. It does bring into question Gerry's claim of raising it easily beforehand and any witness claims to have seen it in a fully raised position.
It is in a stuck position. Police took photos of the crime scene - they don't tamper like others. Here's the shutter in the same position with the window closed so it was not tied as you suggested. The witness said it twisted and that would be reason for it to have stuck and also the reason Dianne could not raise it no further. It does bring into question Gerry's claim of raising it easily beforehand and any witness claims to have seen it in a fully raised position.
Are you saying you can't have these shutters part way up? Where would the jamb up have occurred? To me the bottom edge of the shutter is parallel with the window sill, so it doesn't look like it was stuck in the guides.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 05, 2019, 02:32:58 PM
The witness did it and she was there not you! She stated in her rog that they twisted and got stuck.
"However, she states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was or was not open. - However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 05, 2019, 03:26:13 PM
The witness did it and she was there not you! She stated in her rog that they twisted and got stuck.
"However, she states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was or was not open. - However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
Where does it state they became twisted and got stuck? We are talking about the shutters?!
The UK based forensic scientist, Dave Barclay, did not think they could be interfered with from outside without leaving some trace.
My theory involves the perp 'staging' the shutter/window from inside 5A.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 05, 2019, 05:50:45 PM
As stated in a previous post:
4078 “And were you able to?”
Reply “I think, I think I got it up so far but it became sort of err twisted. But everybody was in such a panic really.”
The witness did it and she was there not you! She stated in her rog that they twisted and got stuck.
"However, she states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was or was not open. - However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
Why is it written "Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed."?
I'm reading that as once she got around to the outside and lifted the shutters she couldn't reach inside to work the pull strap as the window was shut. Does this mean Dianne touched the window to see if it would slide along if it was just shut but not locked.
I have always struggled to read and hear what Dianne did to the shutters and the fact that none of her fingerprints were found on the shutter or the window.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 05, 2019, 09:26:51 PM
I thought according to KM the shutter was fully raised and the window pulled right over?
I'm not talking about specifics but in the general sense. Can that type of shutter be raised to various heights and not jut to the fully open position?
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2019, 10:25:07 PM
I'm not talking about specifics but in the general sense. Can that type of shutter be raised to various heights and not jut to the fully open position?
Yes. The mechanism allows the shutter to be raised to any position. The shutters fitted at Ocean Club are a common fitment throughout continental Europe.
Removing a child through the window without leaving any telltale signs would have required two persons imo.
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: barrier on September 06, 2019, 10:26:39 AM
But actually this is what is reported in his 10th May statement: "----- Then he closed the external blinds, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Lifting the shutters from the outside.
Post by: barrier on September 06, 2019, 01:12:48 PM
But actually this is what is reported in his 10th May statement: "----- Then he closed the external blinds, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
In her 11th May statement,Dianne Webster makes no mention of seeing GM,she states after entering 5a through the sliding doors she quote "However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed.
In her 11th May statement,Dianne Webster makes no mention of seeing GM,she states after entering 5a through the sliding doors she quote "However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed.
So anyone who wasn't there in the first five minutes, their statement's mean nothing?
Contributes nothing regarding the status of the window and the shutter when Kate raised the alarm. Too much time has passed allowing for others to have altered them.