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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on June 18, 2017, 05:51:30 PM
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Pamela Fenn seems to get her dates wrong and makes confusing statements in a TV interview.
I proved in the thread Tuesday or Wednesday http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8299.msg412740#msg412740 that Mrs Fenn in all probability had the dates mixed up it being the 2nd not the 1st of May she heard the kid crying between 10:30 to 11:45.
Also considering she had made a statement to the PJ with important information the transcript of her interview captured on a YT video does not make much sense.
Transcript "Honestly, I have... I know nothing. I have been here three months, until all this happened. I've never spoken to a journalist, they've written rubbish in newspapers, I've never even uttered a word! I've never (sighs)... it's all rubbish! Please, please, just forget it." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFHbkbBh5BM
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Pamela Fenn seems to get her dates wrong and makes confusing statements in a TV interview.
Cites?
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Cites?
I agree. Cites, Please. We need to see what was said, and when, if we are to take this Thread seriously.
I have some memory of things said by Pamela Fenn, which appear to have been taken out of context of what was happening at the time. I cannot remember when she said whatever she said.
In so far as I do remember, I think she was talking about not having spoken to Journalists, and not about not having spoken to The PJ. Which she might not have done at that time.
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I can see nothing which suggests that Mrs Fenn was confused.
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I can see nothing which suggests that Mrs Fenn was confused.
No, nor can I, so far. I never said that she was confused. But I need The Cites.
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Mrs Fen's statement is non verbatim and translated
So again... How accurate is it
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Cites?
All of the issues were covered in the Tuesday or Wednesday thread.
I start off by asking the questions
I sometimes wonder if Pamela Fenn got her days mixed up after all the time had passed. I'm definitely unsure which night was the late night.
Which night could Madeleine cry for an hour and a quarter? Which night did Matt stay out late? Who did he stay drinking with?
So I start my research "http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Mrs Pamela Fenn 20 August 2007
"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse."
Did the McCanns stay out late on the Tuesday night?"
G-unit raised a similar issue before http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2705.msg250719#msg250719
Lace also questioned this statement. "I would question Mrs. Fenn's recollection of what she heard and when she heard it.
The crying episode, Mrs. Fenn said she heard a child crying on the Tuesday evening, this child cried for three quarters of an hour, then the child cried 'Daddy'.
In my opinion, what Mrs. Fenn heard was Amelie wake up crying, she then woke Sean and Madeleine, in my opinion Sean then cried, and then Madeleine called 'Daddy' she then went into Kate and Gerry's bedroom, Gerry was just about to go into their bedroom.
I think Mrs. Fenn got the timing wrong as this all happened later than she said it did.
In my opinion this night is also what Madeleine referred to when she said 'why didn't you come when Sean and me were crying' she meant the Tuesday night in my opinion, Sean and Madeleine were woken by Amelie crying. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6217.msg231788#msg231788
John said "It was the Tuesday night, the next night she went out to her friends house to get some peace and quiet. The Thursday night she was at home and spoke over the balcony to one of the tapas crowd when she heard all the commotion going on."
I ask John "Can you recall why you think she went out on the Wednesday night?" It certainly isn't in her statement.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8299.msg412755#msg412755 shows that the late night for the Tapas 9 was Wednesday not Tuesday.
OK so Matt stays out late on the Wednesday night but does that mean the McCanns stayed out late too?
Wasn't that the night Gerry went back before Kate, the night Kate slept in the kids room on her own?
David payne also confirms it was the Wednesday night they stayed out late http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8299.msg412819#msg412819
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8299.msg412821#msg412821
From that I would say it was Wednesday night that the kids were crying for that is the only night where they all stayed out as late as midnight.
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The second part of my question Pamela Fenn seems to make confusing statements in a TV interview.
Can we work out if her statement was made prior to her saying she knows nothing. So lets see what she says and see if it actually make sense.
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https://joana-morais.blogspot.co.nz/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html
Daily express - Saturday August 18,2007: "A British widow has come forward with new information which could help Portuguese detectives solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, the Daily Express can reveal.
Ex-pat Pamela Fenn, who is in her 70’s, has told police she has three "bombshell" clues she believes could be vital to the inquiry."
Daily Express - Thursday August 30,2007: "Mrs Fenn, 81, told the police that two nights before the incident she heard a little girl loudly crying, “Daddy, daddy” in the apartment.
She said the crying had lasted for some time, but stopped when the McCanns returned to the apartment after dinner."
Sunday Mirror - 23/09/2007: "A key witness in the Madeleine McCann case yesterday DENIED telling cops that she heard the family screaming and arguing.
Pamela Fenn, 81, who lives above the Praia da Luz apartment Madeleine vanished from, supposedly said she heard the four-year-old "scream for four hours" the night before."
Daily Mail - 19th August 2007 : Among them will be ex-pat Pamela Fenn, a widow in her 70s. She claims she "scared off" an intruder who had broken into her apartment in the days before the McCanns arrived to stay in the holiday flat directly below her.
Mrs Fenn has told friends she heard a noise as she watched television and found a man escaping through her bedroom window. Her niece, who was staying with her, also saw the man.
Were all these incorrect?
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Thanks, Rob. Good on ya.
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https://joana-morais.blogspot.co.nz/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html
Daily express - Saturday August 18,2007: "A British widow has come forward with new information which could help Portuguese detectives solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, the Daily Express can reveal.
Ex-pat Pamela Fenn, who is in her 70’s, has told police she has three "bombshell" clues she believes could be vital to the inquiry."
Daily Express - Thursday August 30,2007: "Mrs Fenn, 81, told the police that two nights before the incident she heard a little girl loudly crying, “Daddy, daddy” in the apartment.
She said the crying had lasted for some time, but stopped when the McCanns returned to the apartment after dinner."
Sunday Mirror - 23/09/2007: "A key witness in the Madeleine McCann case yesterday DENIED telling cops that she heard the family screaming and arguing.
Pamela Fenn, 81, who lives above the Praia da Luz apartment Madeleine vanished from, supposedly said she heard the four-year-old "scream for four hours" the night before."
Daily Mail - 19th August 2007 : Among them will be ex-pat Pamela Fenn, a widow in her 70s. She claims she "scared off" an intruder who had broken into her apartment in the days before the McCanns arrived to stay in the holiday flat directly below her.
Mrs Fenn has told friends she heard a noise as she watched television and found a man escaping through her bedroom window. Her niece, who was staying with her, also saw the man.
Were all these incorrect?
Which one do you think is incorrect?
For instance:
Sunday Mirror - 23/09/2007: "A key witness in the Madeleine McCann case yesterday DENIED telling cops that she heard the family screaming and arguing.
She didn't 'tell cops' that the family were screaming and arguing.
Her statement states:
When questioned, she said that she never heard any arguments between the couple or with their children. She said that the family would spend much time outside of the apartment and therefore she did not notice their presence
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Which one do you think is incorrect?
For instance:
Sunday Mirror - 23/09/2007: "A key witness in the Madeleine McCann case yesterday DENIED telling cops that she heard the family screaming and arguing.
She didn't 'tell cops' that the family were screaming and arguing.
Her statement states:
When questioned, she said that she never heard any arguments between the couple or with their children. She said that the family would spend much time outside of the apartment and therefore she did not notice their presence
To understand all the different reports of what Mrs Fenn said will take me quite a bit of time but even now I've seen 4 or 5 different ages given for her.
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This report in a Portuguese paper was interesting for it had the day the same as what I consider correct but this was change days later was recorded in her statement as occurring a different day.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id331.htm
"Deposition: Child cried for her father Correio da Manhã (no longer available online)
Maddie yelled for her father
Wednesday 22 August 2007
With thanks to Astro for translation
The McCanns' neighbour in the Ocean Club apartment was heard on Monday by Policia Judiciaria and confirmed she heard Maddie crying for her father the day before she disappeared. Pamela Fenn, 70, had been questioned at the beginning of the investigation, but the day before yesterday she made a more precise deposition about the details of what she heard and the conversation she held with the girl's mother on the night that she vanished."
"The day before she disappeared" is the Wednesday not the Tuesday.
OK I can see how someone might start to get confused over this because if on the day before missing she is heard crying and that was Wednesday but the night before that is Tuesday night.
Actually the crying and the disappearance all happened in the same 24 hour period but on different dates.
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Which one do you think is incorrect?
For instance:
Sunday Mirror - 23/09/2007: "A key witness in the Madeleine McCann case yesterday DENIED telling cops that she heard the family screaming and arguing.
She didn't 'tell cops' that the family were screaming and arguing.
Her statement states:
When questioned, she said that she never heard any arguments between the couple or with their children. She said that the family would spend much time outside of the apartment and therefore she did not notice their presence
I suspect that Mrs. Fenn hadn't told The Cops anything at that point, simply because she hadn't been interviewed. And quite possibly didn't know who they were. Let alone heard them shouting and screaming.
But, hey ho, anything to knock The McCanns.
The statement by Mrs. Fenn is actually irrelevant.
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The second part of my question Pamela Fenn seems to make confusing statements in a TV interview.
Can we work out if her statement was made prior to her saying she knows nothing. So lets see what she says and see if it actually make sense.
A transcript of the SIC news report on 22nd August 2007, two days after she gave her statement;
Honestly, I have... I know nothing. I have been here three months, until all this happened. I've never spoken to a journalist, they've written rubbish in newspapers, I've never even uttered a word! I've never (sighs)... it's all rubbish! Please, please, just forget it.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id331.htm
The video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFHbkbBh5BM
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A transcript of the SIC news report on 22nd August 2007, two days after she gave her statement;
Honestly, I have... I know nothing. I have been here three months, until all this happened. I've never spoken to a journalist, they've written rubbish in newspapers, I've never even uttered a word! I've never (sighs)... it's all rubbish! Please, please, just forget it.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id331.htm
The video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFHbkbBh5BM
I had just found that transcript and I was about to post it. Thanks.
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A transcript of the SIC news report on 22nd August 2007, two days after she gave her statement;
Honestly, I have... I know nothing. I have been here three months, until all this happened. I've never spoken to a journalist, they've written rubbish in newspapers, I've never even uttered a word! I've never (sighs)... it's all rubbish! Please, please, just forget it.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id331.htm
The video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFHbkbBh5BM
This is the sum total of what happened with regard to Mrs. Fenn inso far as I remember So thanks for that, G-Unit.
I have no idea of what that meant.
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What she said in her statement even if she got the day wrong is definitely not rubbish.
"When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence." Called a robbery here but could well be a burglary. Other reports say this occurred 3 weeks earlier but in her statement it occurred "in a week previously" (which in fact could be a week or more).
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This is the sum total of what happened with regard to Mrs. Fenn inso far as I remember So thanks for that, G-Unit.
I have no idea of what that meant.
It seems like a 'friend' may have spoken to the UK media, so reporters went after her for clarification. She made it clear that she hadn't spoken to the media and that at least come of what they were saying was 'rubbish'.
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I don't think Mrs Fenn was having senior moments. I think this feisty lady would have been less than thrilled by the furore which accompanied the release of her belated confidential police statement - made four months after the event - into the public domain.
Which makes one wonder ... why the delay in interviewing her?
She was a material witness who lived directly above 5A ... but the police asked her nothing. Extraordinary, in my opinion.
Mrs Fenn's son put on record "Gerry McCann did come up to apologise to my mother for all the unwanted attention – which was incredibly kind as he has endured a grief and pain that no parent should ever have to withstand.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8469932/Madeleine-McCann-time-to-forget.html
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Pamela Fenn seems to get her dates wrong and makes confusing statements in a TV interview.
Robittybob, it is conventional to give a little more information with such a claim, one line intro's are unacceptable. You must include evidence or cites with your post otherwise there can be no basis for an informed discussion.
Please add some substance to your intro/op otherwise this thread will be deleted.
Mods take note!
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Which makes one wonder ... why the delay in interviewing her?
She was a material witness who lived directly above 5A ... but the police asked her nothing. Extraordinary, in my opinion.
Totally agree - absolutely extraordinary.
The PJ could have also checked her phone records to check whether the phone call was made to her friend to help pin down the date. I do not believe there is a record in files that this was done.
One of the explanations of the crying incident is that an potential abductor tried previously - this is certainly what KMcC appears to believe, if I understand it correctly.
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Robittybob, it is conventional to give a little more information with such a claim, one line intro's are unacceptable. You must include evidence or cites with your opening post otherwise there can be no basis for an informed discussion.
Please add some substance to your intro/op otherwise this thread will be deleted.
Mods take note!
I concur.
Also, of course, for obvious reasons, she can't reply.
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Totally agree - absolutely extraordinary.
The PJ could have also checked her phone records to check whether the phone call was made to her friend to help pin down the date. I do not believe there is a record in files that this was done.
One of the explanations of the crying incident is that an potential abductor tried previously - this is certainly what KMcC appears to believe, if I understand it correctly.
Many of these sneak thieves are familiar with the territory upon which they prey but they also 'case the joints' to ensure they can get in and out easily without attracting the attention of security etc. It is not therefore beyond the realms of possibility that some such character tried the shutter on a previous night to ensure that it was capable of being opened. This individual could very well have disturbed the children leaving them agitated.
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It seems like a 'friend' may have spoken to the UK media, so reporters went after her for clarification. She made it clear that she hadn't spoken to the media and that at least come of what they were saying was 'rubbish'.
Yes, absolutely. It didn't have much to do with Mrs. Fenn's Police Statement. I felt quite sorry for her. But she did deal with it quite well under the circumstances.
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I don't think Mrs Fenn was having senior moments. I think this feisty lady would have been less than thrilled by the furore which accompanied the release of her belated confidential police statement - made four months after the event - into the public domain.
Which makes one wonder ... why the delay in interviewing her?
She was a material witness who lived directly above 5A ... but the police asked her nothing. Extraordinary, in my opinion.
Mrs Fenn's son put on record "Gerry McCann did come up to apologise to my mother for all the unwanted attention – which was incredibly kind as he has endured a grief and pain that no parent should ever have to withstand.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8469932/Madeleine-McCann-time-to-forget.html
Yes. It was kind.
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Robittybob, it is conventional to give a little more information with such a claim, one line intro's are unacceptable. You must include evidence or cites with your post otherwise there can be no basis for an informed discussion.
Please add some substance to your intro/op otherwise this thread will be deleted.
Mods take note!
Sorry. My fault. I Approved the Topic. But I have since asked for Cites.
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Robittybob, it is conventional to give a little more information with such a claim, one line intro's are unacceptable. You must include evidence or cites with your post otherwise there can be no basis for an informed discussion.
Please add some substance to your intro/op otherwise this thread will be deleted.
Mods take note!
OP upgraded John. There could be other explanations for the apparent discrepancies but we always joke about having "senior moments" ourselves.
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Yes, absolutely. It didn't have much to do with Mrs. Fenn's Police Statement. I felt quite sorry for her. But she did deal with it quite well under the circumstances.
I have no doubt she felt much empathy for the parents despite the foul mouthed remark made to her by one of the tapas women on the night Madeleine disappeared. She would have been upset that such a stupid and unnecessary event had occurred right below her own apartment. I'm also quite sure she became increasingly agitated at the press intrusion.
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I have no doubt she felt much empathy for the parents despite the foul mouthed remark made to her by one of the tapas women on the night Madeleine disappeared. She would have been upset that such a stupid and unnecessary event had occurred right below her own apartment.
I very much doubt that Mrs. Fenn heard the remark. And nor would she have known how unnecessary it might have been.
It has never struck me as unnecessary, just horrendous bad luck.
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Mrs Fen's statement is non verbatim and translated
So again... How accurate is it
I noticed that this question was raised recently in another thread. The answer is very simple. An English speaker gives a statement in English and when it is typed up it is given to them to read or alternatively, if not in English, an interpreter reads it to them. If the statement is correct it is signed by the witness. The witness does not require to be able to read the statement in their native language.
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I very much doubt that Mrs. Fenn heard the remark. And nor would she have known how unnecessary it might have been.
It has never struck me as unnecessary, just horrendous bad luck.
I stick with unnecessary. Had Madeleine's parents exercise a modicum of wit they would not have left three toddlers alone in an unlocked holiday apartment.
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Take it somewhere else Davel for this is a serious thread. It is important to know whether the crying was on Tuesday night or Wednesday night.
Actually both nights and for all we know it could have been every night.
* Mrs Fenn reported crying for over an hour on the Tuesday night.
* On the Thursday morning Madeleine asked her mother why they had not come when she cried (Wed night).
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I stick with unnecessary. Had Madeleine's parents exercise a modicum of wit they would not have left three toddlers alone in an unlocked holiday apartment.
In Your Opinon. Hopefully.
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Actually both nights and for all we know it could have been every night.
* Mrs Fenn reported crying for over an hour on the Tuesday night.
* On the Thursday morning Madeleine asked her mother why they had not come when she cried (Wed night).
What I am contending from the times given in Pamela Fenn's statement and the Tapas 9 statements there was only one night that they were out that late and that was the Wednesday night, so there is an error, not a lie as such in her statement.
The extract from the Richard D Hall documentary goes through the Pamela Fenn situation very thoroughly and raises some good points. What is rubbish and what isn't? What is reported in the press is more than she says in her statement and some of it was prior to her making the statement i.e an article is dated 18th August 2007 yet her statement was the 20th. So it was not that her statement was leaked but she appears to have said something before making her statement to the PJ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx_LmjO6-4A emphasises some of the discrepancies I'm discussing.
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I don't think Mrs Fenn was having senior moments. I think this feisty lady would have been less than thrilled by the furore which accompanied the release of her belated confidential police statement - made four months after the event - into the public domain.
Which makes one wonder ... why the delay in interviewing her?
She was a material witness who lived directly above 5A ... but the police asked her nothing. Extraordinary, in my opinion.
Mrs Fenn's son put on record "Gerry McCann did come up to apologise to my mother for all the unwanted attention – which was incredibly kind as he has endured a grief and pain that no parent should ever have to withstand.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8469932/Madeleine-McCann-time-to-forget.html
On 5th May the PJ descended on Luz and did a house to house. Did they visit Mrs Fenn? We don't know so we can't say 'they asked her nothing'.
If they did visit she didn't mention anything to them or she would have been interviewed. There was also a command post in Block 5 where she could have gone and spoken to the police.
The blame for her late statement can't be laid at the PJ's door unless we know a) if they visited her and b) what she said if they did. She also had the option of approaching them if she thought she had relevant information.
We visited 443 homes, some of which were occupied as the inhabitants of those respective homes were questioned whether they had any information relating to the disappearance of the child, Madeleine McCann or if they witnessed another situation and/or suspicious activity during the dates preceding the events;
In the case of an affirmative answer, these witnesses were taken for formal questioning related to the investigation;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EXTERNAL.htm
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We don't know how accurate the police statement is because it is non verbatim and not recorded in the witnesses native tongue
That is an Important point
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If Mrs Fenn statement is accurate then Maddie wasn't checked for 90 min which I find hard to believe
The statement has no independent verification which is a favourite description of other statements
Is non verbatim and translated
Was given sometimes after the event
Lots of room for error
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If Mrs Fenn statement is accurate then Maddie wasn't checked for 90 min which I find hard to believe
The statement has no independent verification which is a favourite description of other statements
Is non verbatim and translated
Was given sometimes after the event
Lots of room for error
It can of course no longer be checked.
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If Mrs Fenn statement is accurate then Maddie wasn't checked for 90 min which I find hard to believe
The statement has no independent verification which is a favourite description of other statements
Is non verbatim and translated
Was given sometimes after the event
Lots of room for error
It concerned her so much she considered phoning the police. Not the sort of thing one does unless pushed to the limit surely?
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It can of course no longer be checked.
precisely
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It concerned her so much she considered phoning the police. Not the sort of thing one does unless pushed to the limit surely?
She didn't call the police
That would be pushed to the limit
She didn't even go down to see what was going on so she couldn't have been too concerned
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Previous threads http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1237.msg34406#msg34406
and http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2773.msg94187#msg94187
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She didn't call the police
That would be pushed to the limit
She didn't even go down to see what was going on so she couldn't have been too concerned
That's rubbish but then you know that. She telephoned her friend to ask her advice what to do, she wasn't to know the apartment was open.
I felt sorry for Mrs Fenn having her life disrupted by the stupidity of others.
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No one has ever told me how they worked out she wasn't home on Wednesday night. Yet it seems to be the commonly held view.
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That's rubbish but then you know that. She telephoned her friend to ask her advice what to do, she wasn't to know the apartment was open.
I felt sorry for Mrs Fenn having her life disrupted by the stupidity of others.
I feel sorry for the McCanns having their life interrupted by the stupidity of others
If your post is allowed to stand then mine should be too
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I feel sorry for the McCanns having their life interrupted by the stupidity of others
If your post is allowed to stand then mine should be too
The Mccanns actions initiated this case.
Nothing to do with Amaral, Grime, Mrs. Fenn, etc.
Just them.
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The Mccanns actions initiated this case.
Nothing to do with Amaral, Grime, Mrs. Fenn, etc.
Just them.5th
If Maddie was abducted as SY believe then the fault is with the abductor
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I feel sorry for the McCanns having their life interrupted by the stupidity of others
If your post is allowed to stand then mine should be too
IMO it was brought about by their own stupidity.
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This thread is about Mrs Fenn but again it seems it's being used to insult and criticise the mccanns
It beats me what pleasure that gives some people
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If Maddie was abducted as SY believe then the fault is with the abductor
Just a belief in an alleged abductor.
Note the word, ALLEGED.
Yet they have different hypotheses, which mean, reading through the waffle, they don't know what happened.
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No one has ever told me how they worked out she wasn't home on Wednesday night. Yet it seems to be the commonly held view.
The clue is in the fact that Mrs Fenn went out to her friends house the following evening to get some bloody peace. As she was at home on the Thursday night with her niece it isn't hard to work out that it was the Wed she went out and that Tuesday night was the extended crying event.
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If Maddie was abducted as SY believe then the fault is with the abductor
And if they had taken better care of their children they would still have three of them today.
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The clue is in the fact that Mrs Fenn went out to her friends house the following evening to get some bloody peace. As she was at home on the Thursday night with her niece it isn't hard to work out that it was the Wed she went out and that Tuesday night was the extended crying event.
In her statement it reads "She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night." That to me doesn't make sense.
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In her statement it reads "She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night." That to me doesn't make sense.
She might have meant that she was out in the evening and returned at night to go to bed.
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She might have meant that she was out in the evening and returned at night to go to bed.
Well 10:30 till 11:45 is also night. When does her night start?
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Well 10:30 till 11:45 is also night. When does her night start?
Is it, or is that just late evening ? People's concepts and terminology differ
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Is it, or is that just late evening ? People's concepts and terminology differ
That used to be well past my bedtime till I started researching the McCann case and now it is usually 1:00 AM.
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In the U.S., afternoon hours typically mean noon (12 PM) until 3 PM. Late afternoon lasts from 3 PM until 5 PM, when evening hours begin. Late evening starts around 7 PM, and 9 PM is generally when "Night" begins. Did you know that? https://www.quora.com/What-are-afternoon-hours-and-evening-hours-Do-they-vary-based-on-business
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In the U.S., afternoon hours typically mean noon (12 PM) until 3 PM. Late afternoon lasts from 3 PM until 5 PM, when evening hours begin. Late evening starts around 7 PM, and 9 PM is generally when "Night" begins. Did you know that? https://www.quora.com/What-are-afternoon-hours-and-evening-hours-Do-they-vary-based-on-business
So where does the U.S. come into this ?
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It concerned her so much she considered phoning the police. Not the sort of thing one does unless pushed to the limit surely?
Pamela Fenn never said anything about calling The Police. Unless you can prove me wrong.
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That's rubbish but then you know that. She telephoned her friend to ask her advice what to do, she wasn't to know the apartment was open.
I felt sorry for Mrs Fenn having her life disrupted by the stupidity of others.
Not Rubbish. You are required to prove otherwise.
This is getting ridiculous. And I am going to get a bit cross in a minute. Please don't force me to delete your Libellous posts because I really don't want to do this.
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On 5th May the PJ descended on Luz and did a house to house. Did they visit Mrs Fenn? We don't know so we can't say 'they asked her nothing'.
If they did visit she didn't mention anything to them or she would have been interviewed. There was also a command post in Block 5 where she could have gone and spoken to the police.
The blame for her late statement can't be laid at the PJ's door unless we know a) if they visited her and b) what she said if they did. She also had the option of approaching them if she thought she had relevant information.
We visited 443 homes, some of which were occupied as the inhabitants of those respective homes were questioned whether they had any information relating to the disappearance of the child, Madeleine McCann or if they witnessed another situation and/or suspicious activity during the dates preceding the events;
In the case of an affirmative answer, these witnesses were taken for formal questioning related to the investigation;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EXTERNAL.htm
No doubt. However, Mrs Fenn's statement was given four months after the event. Nor can I find any police statement attributed to Mr and Mrs Moyes who were not only resident in the apartment above Mrs Fenn but who actually went out and searched for Madeleine.
Apparently they were asked nothing about the night of the 3rd by the police. Nor were they asked about their search activities. They gave detailed accounts to the media ... had they been interviewed by the police that would have been said.
I believe the adage in a missing child situation is to start at the site and work out from there. 443 homes were undoubtedly visited it seems no-one bothered with the occupants of Block 5 ... for example ... does anyone know who occupied the flat with the rotting food in the open fridge which excited the attention of the GNR dogs?
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The Mccanns actions initiated this case.
Nothing to do with Amaral, Grime, Mrs. Fenn, etc.
Just them.
And that's another one. Please stop this. You are both Moderators and should know better.
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Richard Bilton spoke to Mrs Fenn for the Panorama 2007 documentary.
https://youtu.be/Zqoj-pfBUnY?t=854
I wonder if he spoke to her about the crying incident?
Mrs Fenn said that she heard the first police officers arrive - does that imply there were sirens?
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That's it. I have had enough of Moderators posting up Libellous comments, although God knows I have tried to ignore this.
I am just not having it any more.
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And that's another one. Please stop this. You are both Moderators and should know better.
I hope you are not calling my comment libelous Eleanor.
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Just a belief in an alleged abductor.
Note the word, ALLEGED.
Yet they have different hypotheses, which mean, reading through the waffle, they don't know what happened.
If Maddie was abducted as SY believe then the abductor is a fact
How can it be an alleged abductor if Maddie was abducted
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I hope you are not calling me comment libel Eleanor.
Yes, I am. You have no proof of anything. I pay you the courtesy of discussing this, and to Angelo as well. I have had enough of his Libellous comments also.
I had great hopes for you, Stephen. And now you are letting me down. But never mind. As Moderators you only shame yourselves.
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Yes, I am. You have no proof of anything. I pay you the courtesy of discussing this, and to Angelo as well. I have had enough of his Libellous comments also.
I had great hopes for you, Stephen. And now you are letting me down. But never mind. As Moderators you only shame yourselves.
The case starts with the Mccann's Eleanor.
That is a fact.
That is not libel.
I also, don't agree with many of your views on the case. However, I don't always state those to you.
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If Maddie was abducted as SY believe then the abductor is a fact
How can it be an alleged abductor if Maddie was abducted
Stating AS A BELIEF, 'abduction', does not make it a fact, especially when they have said they are other hypotheses.
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The case starts with the Mccann's Eleanor.
That is a fact.
That is not libel.
Think on that, Stephen. I honestly expected better from you. Rather than to wind up whoever.. Bloody well done. How very silly I was.
I will be Deleting any and all Libellous and Goading posts from any Moderator from now on. Okay. Is this understood?
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No doubt. However, Mrs Fenn's statement was given four months after the event. Nor can I find any police statement attributed to Mr and Mrs Moyes who were not only resident in the apartment above Mrs Fenn but who actually went out and searched for Madeleine.
Apparently they were asked nothing about the night of the 3rd by the police. Nor were they asked about their search activities. They gave detailed accounts to the media ... had they been interviewed by the police that would have been said.
I believe the adage in a missing child situation is to start at the site and work out from there. 443 homes were undoubtedly visited it seems no-one bothered with the occupants of Block 5 ... for example ... does anyone know who occupied the flat with the rotting food in the open fridge which excited the attention of the GNR dogs?
Just because no statements were taken you can't assume that the people in Block 5 weren't visited by the police.
Jeremy Wilkins was visited by the police in Block 4 on Friday 4th, but he made no statement as a result of the visit. He did make contact with the police at some point that day to tell them about his 'rasta man' and that's all. He was interviewed on 7th May because Amaral sent a fax asking Operation Task to arrange it; no doubt after he read Gerry and Jane's evidence.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
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Think on that, Stephen. I honestly expected better from you. Rather than to wind up whoever.. Bloody well done. How very silly I was.
I will be Deleting any and all Libellous and Goading posts from any Moderator from now on. Okay. Is this understood?
The 'wind up's ' Eleanor come from both sides of the fence in this case, not just one.
I have no wish to enter a needless argument, as long as all sides are treated fairly and abide by the rules of the forum, I have no problem.
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The 'wind up's ' Eleanor come from both sides of the fence in this case, not just one.
I have no wish to enter a needless argument, as long as all sides are treated fairly and abide by the rules of the forum, I have no problem.
Then let's initiate zero tolerance
I've suggested it before
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Then let's initiate zero tolerance
I've suggested it before
I am fine by that.
We cannot change what has already happened, but can proceed from here.
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The 'wind up's ' Eleanor come from both sides of the fence in this case, not just one.
I have no wish to enter a needless argument, as long as all sides are treated fairly and abide by the rules of the forum, I have no problem.
I will not be discussing this. i am a Senior Moderator for whatever that might be worth. And i will not have any of you Goading any one. I will be Deleting.
Just how stupid did you think I was, Stephen? Such a disappointment.
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I am fine by that.
We cannot change what has already happened, but can proceed from here.
fine by me
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Then let's initiate zero tolerance
I've suggested it before
BANK ON IT. I have had enough. And then John can decide on my right, or not to sanction other Moderators. I would far rather not. But they don't seem to understand.
I have been watching this all for far too long. And tolerated far too much from other Moderators. I am not having this any more.
Never would I have believed that this Forum is biased. But it sodding well is.
So let's see where we go from here,
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BANK ON IT. I have had enough. And then John can decide on my right, or not to sanction other Moderators. I would far rather not. But they don't seem to understand.
I have been watching this all for far too long. And tolerated far too much from other Moderators. I am not having this any more.
Never would I have believed that this Forum is biased. But it sodding well is.
So let's see where we go from here,
Thank goodness you, Eleanor, and others are noticing this bias. I have been noticing it for getting on for four years.
Let's get it sorted, before everyone leaves.
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Thank goodness you, Eleanor, and others are noticing this bias. I have been noticing it for getting on for four years.
Let's get it sorted, before everyone leaves.
[/quo
No Sadie. It isn't quite like that.. But I am fast running out of time and patience.
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I will not be discussing this. i am a Senior Moderator for whatever that might be worth. And i will not have any of you Goading any one. I will be Deleting.
Just how stupid did you think I was, Stephen? Such a disappointment.
I don't think you are stupid Eleanor.
Never thought you were.
Likewise, in my direction.
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Don't you think, this should be done in private.[not public]
Way off topic, unless someone else is having senior moments.
I think it needed to be, aired publicly and now it has we can get back on track
Mrs, Fenn gave her statement some 3 months after the incident and it was not verbatim
We just don't know how accurate it is
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Just because no statements were taken you can't assume that the people in Block 5 weren't visited by the police.
Jeremy Wilkins was visited by the police in Block 4 on Friday 4th, but he made no statement as a result of the visit. He did make contact with the police at some point that day to tell them about his 'rasta man' and that's all. He was interviewed on 7th May because Amaral sent a fax asking Operation Task to arrange it; no doubt after he read Gerry and Jane's evidence.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
As you have indicated Jeremy Wilkins statement is recorded in the files. Jez had information to impart hence the follow up.
As I have noted there is no record or any reference to either Mr and Mrs Moyes or Mrs Fenn making a statement of any kind to the police.
Mrs Fenn apparently also might have had relevant information ... but since there is no record of it when it was fresh in her mind ... we'll never really know will we.
Obviously you don't know who was in the apartment in block 5 the GNR dogs took an interest in either; nothing about a follow up on that either.
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I don't think Mrs Fenn was having senior moments. I think this feisty lady would have been less than thrilled by the furore which accompanied the release of her belated confidential police statement - made four months after the event - into the public domain.
Which makes one wonder ... why the delay in interviewing her?
She was a material witness who lived directly above 5A ... but the police asked her nothing. Extraordinary, in my opinion.
Mrs Fenn's son put on record "Gerry McCann did come up to apologise to my mother for all the unwanted attention – which was incredibly kind as he has endured a grief and pain that no parent should ever have to withstand.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8469932/Madeleine-McCann-time-to-forget.html
She was a material witness ?. I would suggest that is stretching a point. She was witness to a child crying on another night. It is a big leap to make that material to an alleged kdnapping that took place at a different time.
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She was a material witness ?. I would suggest that is stretching a point. She was witness to a child crying on another night. It is a big leap to make that material to an alleged kdnapping that took place at a different time.
We've probably all formed the impression that although Mrs Fenn was a senior she was still a sharp lady. Careful questioning at the time might have revealed something of substance ... even for the sharpest of wits four months down the line leaves room for error.
Certainly the Moyes who were out and about in the area might have seen something not out of the ordinary to them but which an investigator might have found of interest. There is no record that they were asked.
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We've probably all formed the impression that although Mrs Fenn was a senior she was still a sharp lady. Careful questioning at the time might have revealed something of substance ... even for the sharpest of wits four months down the line leaves room for error.
Certainly the Moyes who were out and about in the area might have seen something not out of the ordinary to them but which an investigator might have found of interest. There is no record that they were asked.
Equally there's no evidence they weren't spoken to. It would have been illogical for the PJ to knock on doors in Block 4 and ignore Block 5.
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Block 6 residents were also visited;
the witness went to meet GNR officers whom she cannot identify, to open the doors for them and speak to guests staying in apartments in block 6. The objective was for the police to talk to these guests and show them the photo of the girl and establish whether they had any information that could lead to discovering her whereabouts.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-CASTELA.htm
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She was a material witness ?. I would suggest that is stretching a point. She was witness to a child crying on another night. It is a big leap to make that material to an alleged kidnapping that took place at a different time.
Her evidence seems to have been given more credit than it possibly deserves. As you say it wasn't relevant to the night of the disappearance.
Her evidence and that of Yvonne Martin seem to be grouped together and given a status of their own, possibly because they both point to neglect by the parents.
Yvonne's statistic that "99.99% of missing children is due to the parents" (I could get the exact words) is way off the actual recorded statistics. (99.99% implies only 1 case in 10 thousand would be stranger or friends involved. That is absolutely untrue.)
Pamela's child crying for 75 minutes shows they were possibly skipping checks.
Both witnesses point to the parents but both apparently unreliable.
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Her evidence seems to have been given more credit than it possibly deserves. As you say it wasn't relevant to the night of the disappearance.
Her evidence and that of Yvonne Martin seem to be grouped together and given a status of their own, possibly because they both point to neglect by the parents.
Yvonne's statistic that "99.99% of missing children is due to the parents" (I could get the exact words) is way off the actual recorded statistics. (99.99% implies only 1 case in 10 thousand would be stranger or friends involved. That is absolutely untrue.)
Pamela's child crying for 75 minutes shows they were possibly skipping checks.
Both witnesses point to the parents but both apparently unreliable.
IYO
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IYO
It was taken 4 months after the event
It is non verbatim and recorded in a different language to what it was spoken in
We do not know how good the translator was but we do know the pj we're using members of the public
Can we therefore rely on it's accuracy
No we cant
It is therefore unreliable
No imo
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IYO
Does anyone have a different opinion to mine? Does anyone really believe 99.99% of missing children are due to the parents? Does anyone think that the McCanns stayed out for two late nights in a row?
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Does anyone have a different opinion to mine? Does anyone really believe 99.99% of missing children are due to the parents? Does anyone think that the McCanns stayed out for two late nights in a row?
Out of interest I've looked at the statistics from the US.
US Source : https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/o[Name removed]dp/196465.pdf
There is uncertainty in the numbers and the estimates are from the US
Of the 797,500 children reported missing 12,100 + 56,500 were defined as being abducted (non-family + family)
12,100 + 56,500 = 68,600
Of this total 90 are recorded as a stereotypical kidnapping, which is alleged to be the case with MBM.
90 / 68,000 is < 0.005%
Most non-family abductions are presumably very short lived. The fact that MBM had been missing overnight may have affected how YM viewed the statistics, e.g 90 / ( 90 + 56,500 ). Who knows exactly what she meant without further clarification and questioning?
*Stereotypical kidnappings are the particular type of nonfamily abduction that receives the most media attention and involves a stranger or slight acquaintance who detains the child overnight, transports the child at least 50 miles, holds the child for ransom, abducts the child with intent to keep the child permanently, or kills the child. They represent an extremely small portion of all missing children.
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Certainly some large sample sizes there so the stats would be reliable. Thanks for finding those figures.
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Out of interest I've looked at the statistics from the US.
US Source : https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/o[Name removed]dp/196465.pdf
There is uncertainty in the numbers and the estimates are from the US
Of the 797,500 children reported missing 12,100 + 56,500 were defined as being abducted (non-family + family)
12,100 + 56,500 = 68,600
Of this total 90 are recorded as a stereotypical kidnapping, which is alleged to be the case with MBM.
90 / 68,000 is < 0.005%
Most non-family abductions are presumably very short lived. The fact that MBM had been missing overnight may have affected how YM viewed the statistics, e.g 90 / ( 90 + 56,500 ). Who knows exactly what she meant without further clarification and questioning?
*Stereotypical kidnappings are the particular type of nonfamily abduction that receives the most media attention and involves a stranger or slight acquaintance who detains the child overnight, transports the child at least 50 miles, holds the child for ransom, abducts the child with intent to keep the child permanently, or kills the child. They represent an extremely small portion of all missing children.
I don't agree that the McCann case is a stereotypical ALLEGED abduction. I think the main difference we need to consider is whether it is a family or non-family situation and they were 3 times more likely to be family as opposed to non-family.
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I don't agree that the McCann case is a stereotypical abduction. I think the main difference we need to consider is whether it is a family or non-family situation and they were 3 times more likely to be family as opposed to non-family.
I'm afraid it isnt
Very unlikely to be family
You need to look more closely at the statisics
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I'm afraid it isnt
Very unlikely to be family
You need to look more closely at the statisics
Would you care to explain your view. I read various charts but this one "Nonfamily abduction 58,200
Family abduction 203,900"
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Would you care to explain your view. I read various charts but this one "Nonfamily abduction 58,200
Family abduction 203,900"
Think of it in terms of the breakdown of relationships and subsequent child custody disputes ... which will probably account for the majority of such abductions.
The situation confronting Madeleine McCann in Portugal is in an entirely different category.
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Would you care to explain your view. I read various charts but this one "Nonfamily abduction 58,200
Family abduction 203,900"
If you look at family abductions they almost always involve custody disputes
You are applying your statistics blindly and incorrectly
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I don't agree that the McCann case is a stereotypical ALLEGED abduction. I think the main difference we need to consider is whether it is a family or non-family situation and they were 3 times more likely to be family as opposed to non-family.
It has yet to be proved that it was an abduction, let alone what type of abduction.
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It has yet to be proved that it was an abduction, let alone what type of abduction.
I would say it has been proved that abduction is by far the most likely
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I would say it has been proved that abduction is by far the most likely
I know you would. I would say otherwise.
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I know you would. I would say otherwise.
Where's the emoticon for flame-grilling? 8)-)))
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I know you would. I would say otherwise.
As I have said before we would need to define what prove means first and I don't think any other poster has realised this
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I would say it has been proved that abduction is by far the most likely
By whom?
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As I have said before we would need to define what prove means first and I don't think any other poster has realised this
I do, largely due to your excellent definitions. Unfortunately, this has made Moderating a bit more difficult for me, although perhaps this is not such a bad idea, at least for me.
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I would say it has been proved that abduction is by far the most likely
The Portuguese investigators and prosecutors didn't agree with you. The crime was unknown when they archived their investigation.
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The Portuguese investigators and prosecutors didn't agree with you. The crime was unknown when they archived their investigation.
That was about 8 years ago and the case has been reopened since.
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That was about 8 years ago and the case has been reopened since.
No evidence 'proving' that the crime committed was stranger abduction has been released. I don't recall either of the new investigations saying they have such evidence.